have anyone tried bow of nylea? I am testing it as a one of at the moment, doesn't do much at first, but is good for devotion and utility. some of its utility is quite relevant.
Recently I was thinking about fiting it in the deck. This could be very useful card if used with something like Kitchen Finks - kind a like infinite blocker. Every option is viable for us to use - life gain vs agro, 2 damage to hard-to-deal-with flyers, putting +1/+1 counters, shuffling some creatures to library to be able to fetch with primal command or smth.
The Kitchen Finks thing is a really cool idea. Good Thinking Pafka!
have anyone tried bow of nylea? I am testing it as a one of at the moment, doesn't do much at first, but is good for devotion and utility. some of its utility is quite relevant. I am also trying out nylea, goddess of the hunt. it is pretty good so far. might consider xenogos for testing as well for beatdown.
I have found Nylea and Xenagos to be extremely powerful cards in devotion decks. In devotion decks they have a massive amount of utility. Nylea is ridiculous (especially in "fair" match ups). An indestructible 6/6 for four (90% of the time) that gives you a place to put all your excess mana AND gives the creatures you pump (and all creatures for that matter) trample becomes crazy. I've killed many a Pod player simply attacking with a 9/9 trample Elf for a turn or two even when the manage to block everything else.
I just recently started playing Xenagos (last 4-5 weeks when I moved to the Khalni Hydra build) and it is amazing. With things like Kessig Wolf Run, Nylea, Ezuri, and even Elvish Archdruid; you can turn a very little creature into a very big one quite quickly (especially off of a wave). He's become my main win-con off a huge wave (even if I tap every elf prior to the wave, I can use one of the "new" ones, pump it with Ezuri, Nylea, or Kessig Wolf Run...all of which give trample...and then he doubles their power and gives them haste! Most games, however, a 16/16 haste Khalni Hydra on turn 4 will do lethal. Hell, even a 3/3 Wolf token becoming a 6/6 haste wolf token can become a reasonable threat. I definitely advocate at least trying one or both Gods out. I bet they fit in a lot of decks. They have a TON of value built into them...and they are meant to be played in devotion decks
Basically, the "philosophies" behind the deck are:
1. Utilize multiple "card draw" permanents and Genesis Waves that keep us constantly filling our hand and filling the board to overwhelm the opponent.
2. Find a secondary way to utilize these "support" / "card draw" permanents beyond devotion.
3. Find ways to make your mana dorks and support creatures into threats (so even if you top deck an Arbor Elf you aren't completely pissed )
This way, the deck isn't nearly as clunky. Since we all must have mana dorks, and in my opinion you also have to have cantrip permanents; you have to find a way to best utilize these essential creatures that make up such a large percentage of the deck. This is where the "secondary uses" and "threat making" come in. In Elf decks, "secondary use enablers" include Khalni Hydra, Mirror Entity, Heritage Druid, and Chord of Calling (there are many more, but these are the best I've found thus far). Both Mirror Entity and Chord can be played easily in non-Elf decks. Cards that make them threats include Ezuri, Mirror Entity, Nylea, and Kessig Wolf Run. The two best "threat makers" for non-Elf decks are Nylea and Kessig Wolf Run.
We all know how important card draw is in devotion decks. It keeps us from running through our hand (as we generate mana so quickly), helps us dig to curve out better (the more cards we see each turn the better), and the more cards we have the more the opponent has to answer. Obviously I could go on and on; but it's pretty much common knowledge now that devotion decks need some form of card draw (and/or extremely resilient permanents like Strangleroot Geist or Kitchen Finks). And the best forms of card draw/advantage in devotion decks comes from permanents (namely creatures) that also draw cards. Great options include Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, Wistful Selkie, Courser of Kruphix, Carven Caryatid (great in aggressive metas), Eternal Witness (slightly different), and Eidolon Blossoms (although at 4-CMC this can be tough) and both Garruk Primal Hunter and Caller of Beasts. This is nothing new.
The "Secondary Use" cards are what becomes key. As an example...Coiling Oracle is good on it's own (draws a card...plays that card if it is a land, add's one devotion, etc.). But with Heritage Druid, Khalni Hydra, and/or Chord of Calling it becomes great! Now it draws a card (plays if land), adds one devotion, AND taps for a mana! With both Heritage Druid AND Khalni Hydra, it effectively "taps" for 2-mana (reduces Khlani by 1 just being on board, taps via Heritage Druid). By having "secondary use" cards; you're cantrips don't just draw a card and add devotion to your board. This is effectively what makes Khalni Hydra so strong. It is a "secondary use enabler" that is also a threat on its own. Khalni Hydra adds HUGE devotion; makes each mana dork and small cantrip creature even more valuable in your deck, and is a large threat to boot!
The "Threat Making" cards of course are a little more straight forward. For the most part they are simply mana-sinks. Kessig Wolf Run, Ezuri (in elf decks), Nylea, and Mirror Entity are the ones I've used thus far...but pretty much any card that turns you're little guys into large threats has potential. Devotion decks make a lot of mana and more important than nearly anything else is that we have somewhere to utilize that mana to our advantage. Making 20+ mana on turn 3-4 only matters if you can use it
The simple word for all this is "synergy". The elves create a ton of mana, which draws a bunch of cards, which plays the sinks, which makes them bigger, all of which increases devotion which allows you to play more cards, which draws more cards, which plays more sinks, which makes them bigger....and on and on. The tough parts are (a) making sure you can develop this synergy quickly and consistently (as being a non-interactive deck means you have to be able to win consistently by turn 4) and (b) making sure that no one part is the most important (as opponents will quickly figure this out and wait for it). Anywho, this is just a slightly different way to play devotion and can be used in different ways in other devotion decks.
A few other things I wanted to mention:
Charlesching...
I have not tried Bow of Nylea but it seems like it could definitely have a use in a world full of Delvers. Also, giving every little creature deathtouch is not nuthin!
Banchidudle...
I REALLY like the amount of card draw you've added into your deck. I talk about this a good amount above; but that goes a really long way to "smoothing out" a devotion/ramp deck.
iM4gic...
I think Polukranos for Wolfbriar is a good trade. Polukranos is a little more interactive; but that's probably a good thing seeing as how you have a good amount of beaters. I am a HUGE fan of mana-sink permanents in devotion decks. We make so much mana; that in order to get the full benefit of the mechanic we need to have places to spend all that mana as efficiently as possible (i.e. I don't want to have any mana left on any turn even if I can make 100 mana every turn )
A little late...but my deck is in its "final" form now. Here it is:
Lands:
13 x forest
1 x inkmoth nexus
1 x kessig wolfrun
2 x stomping grounds
4 x Nykthos,shrine to nyx
Creatures:
2 x birds of paradise
3 x elvish mystic
2 x joraga treespeaker
2 x burning-tree emissary
3 x elvish visionary
2 x voyaging satyr
3 x courser of kruphix
4 x eternal witness
1 x wolfbriar elemental
3 x primeval Titan
1 x craterhoof behemoth
Spells:
3 x utopia sprawl
4 x genesis wave
3 x garruk wildspeaker
2 primal command
1 x Garruk, caller of beasts
Sideboard:
2 x tormod's crypt
3 x guttural response
2 x pithing needle
2 x surgical extraction
1 x banefire
3 x fire spout
2 x fracturing gust
I like this list. It seems heavily tested and well tuned. It's simply the "best of the best" green spells (Prime Time, Genesis Wave, Primal Command, Garruk's, Courser, and Craterhoof, etc.) along with ramp to get you there quickly. Powerful and solid.
The Inkmoth Nexus thing is something I've been dying to try. I've begun testing it in decks with Mirror Entity (as the two can quickly win matches together). I already utilize Cavern of Souls in every deck and Kessig Wolf Run in decks with red, so I have to be very choosy with my utility lands...but in decks where I'm only splashing white and play Mirror Entity; I'm thinking Inkmoth may be a good choice. In your case, you have Kessig Wolf Run and Primeval Titan to call them up (so it's far more consistent).
You certainly have plenty of win-cons. Between Inkmoth, the Primal/Witness Lock, Primeval Titan, Wolfbriar Elemental, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Kessig Wolf Run; you've got numerous lines. The opponent won't be able to stop them all, and as you've discussed; even if they could you've got Banefire in the board! You definitely are not a "one line" deck which is great; but it's not "jumbled" either (all of the lines are dooable at the same time).
My only suggestion would be to replace Elvish Mystic with Arbor Elf...only because you play Utopia Sprawls and 13 Forests so most likely the upside would outweigh any downside of running into games where your only lands on board are Inkmoth and Nykthos (of course then you couldn't cast Elvish Mystic anyways
I can see how you would have somewhat of a "roller coaster" with this deck, although to be honest it looks pretty solid (and part of this is just variance in the game). The only way I could say you may be able to "smooth out" the deck a little is to add a few more "support cards" for card advantage. You already have 3 Visionaries, 3 Coursers, 4 Eternal Witness, 4 Genesis Wave (which can effectively work as "card advantage), and 4 planeswalkers...so you're not unreasonably light on "card advantage" cards. MAYBE (and this is really ticky tacky) you could replace 1 of your mana dorks for another "card draw" card (like another Visionary, Courser, etc.); however, (like I said earlier) it already looks like you've tuned this deck quite a bit so you probably have a pretty good grasp already on how often you want such cards...
All in all, other than the Arbor Elves, I would say there's not a whole lot I would change in this list. It runs somewhat like what I call a "Traditional" version of Green Devotion (obviously the list is not traditional, I just call devotion decks that play Genesis Wave, Primal Command, and Primeval Titan as their "core" win-cons to be "Traditional" as opposed to decks that focus on one or the other like Genesis Wave Combo decks or "Toolbox" decks that focus more heavily on the Primal Lock and Chord...), This list seems really powerful and for this style of deck it is pretty on point for what you're wanting to do.
Please keep us up to date on how it performs, tests, etc. and let us know of any changes and/or interesting synergies you run into! Very well tuned list! I love seeing different "versions" of devotion (Stompy, Elves, Toolbox, etc.); but sometimes it's just nice to see a tuned list based on the "traditional" best of the best green spells. Great list!
I agree with Im4Mg1c on Harmonize too. It feels like a card that should be great; but often I just felt like I preferred another Elvish Visionary or other "card advantage permanent" (courser, oracle, even wistful Selkie, etc.).
CurdBros every time i have drawn or even miracled bonfire it has been the wrong card at the wrong time. i will miracle it with no red source, or a completely more powerful devotion play. if its in my hand its usually because my dorks were killed off turn one and two and now im sitting idle. banefire however, its a sideboard card taht i use after the opponent has seen the wave/ craterhoof combo off in their face. they automatically decide that the deck is single facetted and that i have no other options. in come the sideboard ETB trigger hate (torpor orb). with that i laugh bc i still have my dorks and although i lose some of my card draw if they play orb, i am still able to ramp into an equally powerful spell and an alternate win con in Banefire. it has rarely let me down. even if i Gwave it to the grave i can often recur it with Primal command (shuffling grave into deck) or with E wit if orb isnt on board. overall i found it to be much better and ive been using it since i built the deck back in june. bonfire was something that just never stuck with the deck. as far as dealing iwth board wiping you can cast firespout which acts as an anger of the gods if you use a red source or just knocks down aberations if youre playing delver. granted if you cast it as an anger you have to be weary of your dorks. but late game i usually have enough mana to get a sufficient G wave without the dorks. then i get the cards entering from the gwave and can usually regain devotion. overall mono green is a fickle beast for me still. i often go 4-0 or 0-4 just depending on the card draw. seems that i rarely fall in the middle at 2-2 or 3-1. i think swapping caryatids for coursers of kruphix will make a huge splash for my deck though.
I'm glad to hear you had such success with Banefire. I'm not saying it's a bad card, I just wanted to make sure I pointed out that there are situations/builds where devotion players would be better off with Bonfire (and vice versa).
In those situations where bonfire was the wrong card to draw would Banefire have been the right card? When comparing two cards; I like to think of situations where one would be more useful to the deck. In this situations where your dorks had been killed or you didn't have a red source; how would Banefire have been better? Obviously; they're both dead without red; but I could see an argument where you only had 4 mana and the opponent is attacking with a flying creature with 3 toughness. In this situation, you're right that a non-miracle Bonfire couldn't handle it while a Banefire could. The trick is to try to figure out as many such scenarios as possible (where one is better than the other), determine how likely/often you deal with each scenario, and pick the one with more "pro's".
The honest truth is they really just different cards with different uses. For me, I don't have a lot of space for removal; so having a card that can function both as a board wipe as well as general spot removal while also going to the face if need be works best for me. I can't play symmetrical board wipes because my deck revolves around creatures being on the board. I'm sure there are other decks that would prefer the Firespout/Banefire combo.
A super simplification would be that if you're using the card mostly as an alternative win condition; Banefire is a better choice. If you're using the card more as a "support" card to deal with board situations you're not otherwise prepared for and/or problem creatures; I would say go with Bonfire.
how many etb-tapped-lands do you think a 20-land devotion build could incorporate without risking its explosiveness too much? I ask so, because for a pure mono-green version based on elfes, genesis wave and little garruk I am thinking about Mosswort Bridge as a way to give medium sized waves more reach and/ or Oran-Rief, The Vastwood to make more meat out of all the little green fellows.
In terms of an Elf version, there are a few important questions, but in general you really only want to run one ETB tapped land. I don't currently run any (as I've filled my "utility land" spots with Cavern of Souls, Kessig Wolf Run, and Nykthos)...but I do like Mosswort Bridge in Devotion decks in general. It has a very powerful upside with a very manageable downside in many decks. I'm actually quite surprised we haven't seen it more throughout this thread...
Oran-Rief, The Vastwood seems extremely interesting/synergistic (i.e. off of a Wave you could give everyone +1/+1, etc.) and sometimes it's nice to have a use for a land when you don't need the mana. Even making Garruk tokens 4/4 could be advantageous. It may end up being one of those "too cute" ideas; but there is every possibility you have all of the mana you need. I've not actually ever tested it; so I'd love to hear how they do. What would be really fun is to see if you could go crazy with Garruk Wildspeaker and/or Voyaging Satyr (untapping and triggering the ability 2-3 times in a turn to give everyone two or three counters...haha!.)
If you end up running 20 lands; you MAY be able to get away with two of them; but at 19 I'd probably one run 1. The early sequencing and spending mana efficiently on turns 1-3 is HUGE for this deck. It is what allows for you to do broken things on turns 3-5. Having a ETB tapped ability, there will be some games where it may slow down the "overwhelming" nature of the deck. Say you can't cast a Heritag, which in turn means you can't cast your Khalni Hydra on turn 3...this most likely will have an effect on your next turn...anywho, you get the picture. That said, playing one (maybe two) of such lands won't harm your speed/consistency all of the time; and as long as the benefit is worth it you're good!
As an aside...one land I've had in and out of the deck (although may put it back in since my current version doesn't run Nissa) is Pendlehaven. It's not a Forest, but it also comes into play untapped. It can tap for green immediately and/or can give an elf +1/+2. I can't tell you how may Electrolyze's, Forked Bolts, and other "ping" spells have been thwarted because I had a Pendlehaven. It can be nice too when blocking. Just a thought though.
Please do let us know how those lands play out (where they worth it, how often did the ETB tapped clause slow you down and/or limit your turn, examples when they were very powerful, etc.). Both are GREAT ideas btw. There's every possibility they are a great choice and should be in the deck(s).
Curdbros please send me your recent list (elf khalni with mirror entity you mentioned)
Hey Pedros! I'll send you the list within the hour. I currently have two lists I'm in between; but they are literally only a couple cards different; so I'll send both and discuss the Core of the deck so you can choose which direction you think is best. I'll be home by 3:30-3:45 and will send it.
Thanks CurdBros,
you always seems to be so enthusianstic regarding this deck. Thanks for your effort
2. It seemed like a majority of your wins came from a Craterhoof Behemoth. Is this something that you find often (i.e. does Craterhoof win a majority of your games) or is this just something that happened this evening? I don't want to read too much into one night; but I've had a few buddies who've played more interactive versions of the deck (although not nearly as strong as I would consider yours) that seemed to do a lot but tended to actually win through Craterhoof a large majority of the time. This is not a negative thing by any means (you can tutor it up with Primal Command, you have card draw, etc. so you get to it consistently); I just wanted to see if it was a trend you found as well (i.e. that a majority of your wins came through Craterhoof. Most Devotion decks win on one big attack; so it's not crazy by any means. I just like to see the lines all devotion decks take; and wanted to know what percentage you would say you win with Craterhoof vs. Primeval Titan, Wolf Run, or just attacking someone down, etc.)
I never searched for him or tried to force Craterhoof in the play. He would just come naturally with the card draw. And Craterhoof is what he is - with the indestructable creatures, who can stay on the board, when he hits, he wins. Ussually I win by Kessig or Craterhoof, but one and only time that evening Nylea hit the battlefield, she did her job by pumping and clearing some path or just chumping some of my oponents life.
Other wincon is just Primal locking - usually people scoop their hands after this operation.
3. Is Delver typically a tough match up for you or was this just a case of poor draws. I test almost solely Elf builds of Devotion now; so findings like this are EXTREMELY helpful to me in learning more about the other builds. Obviously, Twin is tough for most green decks; but I'm interested to hear in general how you would rate Delver match ups for your list.
I did not test much with delver lists. But when at that event I was overwhelmed with little tokens and could not do anything, I started to search some kind of sweeper. That's why I want to try and play Bonfire - it's not to chump my opponent, it is to use as one-sided sweeper and kill his creatures. We have this luxury called mana to hardcast it, so why not try it. Also I was trying to add some other sweeper and was thinking of Pyroclasm, but I absolutely forgot Firespout. And now I am confused which one to use. Need your advice I guess, hehe.
Last thought - I am now unsure about little Garruk. Yeah, he is nice when we are comboing out, but sometimes it happens that we just are empty and untaping two lands is pointless, while -1 him puts him in danger on getting Bolted or killed in other way. Thinking of trying out Caller of the beasts or Primal Hunter now.
Thanks so much! Devotion is just the best mechanic ever :). As a green player through and through; I couldn't have been happier when it was spoiled...I started testing it the day Nykthos was spoiled (although I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really care for Polukranos at the time...I shouldn't mention this as there is no record beyond my telling my brother when he was spoiled, "5/5 for four is awesome; but he doesn't have trample, and how often are you really gonna have time to monstorous him?" Ha! In my defense, we only play Modern, so I was at least not talking Standard then :). I'm sure it's far from the worst call I'be made. Goes to show you why I test everything rather than taking my own word for it! Now on to your answers:
1. Craterhoof
That's super interesting. Obviously he's amount the best (if not the best) green win-cons of all time. And you're right in the fact that there are only so many win-cons (with Messig WE and Craterhoof being your most common). I had a feeling it may have been a little more of a coincidence that night (I.e. That you were top-decking it often) but I wanted to be sure for studying' sake.
That's really interesting that most scoop to the Primal Lock. I think have devalued the power of the lock in my mind for some reason. I always look at it as a "soft lock" that opponents still have a chance to play through. I always was a little "simple" in my thinking that for 8 mana you could just play Craterhoof (when in reality of course the "lock" cards can be played at 3, 5, and 8 mana depending on which cards you have and your position) so the flexibility cannot be overlooked. I've tested it and enjoyed it (although it's not really my Playstyle or the way I like to play devotion)...so you'd think I would have understood it's full potential. I think I was just biased due to my Playstyles preferences. From both your post as well as many others; I dont think I can really maintain the opinion that it's a "soft lock" any more Don't get me wrong. I've actually suggested the lock / cards to players who wanted to play a more interactive style of devotion...I think it's super powerful and allows green players to competitively play an interactive build. I just always considered both Primal Command and Eternal Witness as "support cards" when really they're both support and win-con options (especially if a vast majority of the time opponents scoop to it).
2. Delver / Sweepers
I've always loved a few cards against current Dver lists:
A. Bonfire - you put it perfectly. For those of us with the luxury of mana, bonfire often becomes a one-sided sweeper. It's great in dealing with 1/1 tokens.
B. Firesprout - the argument could be made (and its a good one) that if you are only using bonfire as a sweeper; you should be using Firespout to get more "bang for your buck" without worrying about a Miracle trigger. The only downside to this is that the effect is symmetrical. It hits your creatures too.
C. Ghostly Prison - I LOVE Ghostly Prison. It hurts so many decks! Merfolk, delver, Pod...even Boggles struggles because they never have much mana and have to choose between enchanting or attacking :). My favorite use of course is against twin. Make a million tokens for all I care...you can only attack with the few you can pay for.
These are my three favorites; although there are several things like Pyroclasm (which is especially good if your creatures tend to be 3/3 or bigger) that are great choices in certain decks as well. Anger of the Gods is amazing if you tend to run 4 toughness creatures (it absurdly destroys Pod because the voices and finks don't come back). I'm actually a fan of a combo of Ghostly Prison and Bonfire (depending on if you run any bonfires main). That way even if they create 1 million creatures you can kill them all.
3. Garruk
Garruk is amazing in Genesis Wave heavy builds for obvious reasons. It's the easiest way to "Chain" waves and/or have huge sums of mana to dump into your pumps (Ezuri, Kessig WR, Nylea, Mirror Entity, etc.). He's also amazing in Elf builds (as his overrun ultimate can be lethal if you have 3+ elves on board). I can totally see, however, Amy builds not running four Waves not needing or wanting four Wildspeakers. Primal Hunter seems amazing with Genesis Hydra; and Caller of Beastd is just axing period (his +1 is pure card advantage and his second ability can put the biggest creatures into play...and even if just puts in a leatherback you've gained three devotion and have an uncounterable creature). I sound like a broken record sometimes; but I'll say what I always do...give it a try! If it sounds like a good idea, chances are high that it will work out
Thanks again for posting and for adding all of this great info here. It's super helpful to everyone to hear about how each card/spell plays out in real matches. Keep up the good work; and let us know of any changes and/or future games! Awesome deck btw.
bonfire is completel outclassed by banefire. you dont have to rely on the miracle trigger and it can become harder to deal with than a bonfire.
I'm not quite certain that's the case 100% of the time. Of course, I don't ever use terms like "completely outclassed" or "strictly better" or the like...so that's more of a semantic argument than what you really meant. I'm sure you just meant that a majority of the time one would be better off using Banefire than Bonfire in their build.
Banefire is an excellent spell, no doubt about it! One we should always have on our radar given the amount of mana we generate. Bonfire of the Damned, however, can be used as a boardwipe as well. Many green decks (especially devotion decks of the "combo" and "stompy" variety) don't have an ample amount of removal; so it's nice to have a spell that can function as both direct damage as well as removal for any and all problem creature(s) (including those with flying). The second you cast a Bonfire and wipe the entire Affinity board, kill multiple spirit tokens, or kill all young pyromancer tokens along with an insectile aberration, etc. you'll see that there may be situations where you are glad you had a Bonfire of the Damned Part of my opinion, however, also comes from the fact that I play with a lot of Jeskai players...and Bonfire has been a card I've gone to in order to deal with Geist of Saint Traft; so this could be a little more "local" of a problem than most (as others may not see Geist nearly as much as I do).
Having said this, these situations may very well be less than the situations where Banefire is superior. I've preferred Bonfire of the Damned only because of its potential to be an X-for-1 and it's ability to deal with Geist (although this may be more "local" of a benefit). I have had situations where I cast it to remove only one creature; but I was still happy to do so at the time In those situations it's very possible that I may have been better off with Banefire targeting the creature; however I did get to hit the opponent for damage at the same time I removed the creature with Bonfire so the spell was a "quasi-2-for-1" spell functioning kind of like a "Searing Blaze" or something similar...
You do make a good point about the Miracle trigger. It does take away some of the control over the power of the spell. We (devotion players) are somewhat fortunate in the fact that we don't always have to cast Bonfire at its Miracle cost due to the amount of mana we generate. It does dampen the spell if we don't cast it at miracle; but even at X=3 it can be extremely powerful.
I am always open to discussions; so I'd love to talk about the builds and situations where Banefire is better than Bonfire and vice versa; but I'm not certain that Banefire completely outclasses Bonfire in a multitude of scenarios in the current Modern meta (when discussing Devotion decks). I will have to test Banefire a little more; however, as I have had much more experience with Bonfire (so my opinion may be a little biased). While Banefire will always either be direct damage and/or a 1-for-1 removal spell; you are right that it is very difficult to deal with (given that it can't be countered past X=5). Bonfire, however, can be used as a boardwipe, a "Searing Blaze" type spell (damage and removal), or just a straight up Fireball effect...great topic though. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on the subject! I'll definitely try out Banefire though in my testing to see if it is a better fit.
So yeah,
Thursday was a modern night at our LGS. 16 participants, did not do very well, but maybe because I am trying to shift my Genesis Wave deck to new meta and I was trying some new stuff. So there is the decklist:
Some explanations on card choices:
1) Got my hands on one of Bonfire of the Damned so I switched it with one of Genesis Wave. At this time, Primal Command seems to be very powerful business spell.
2) I switched BTE's and cantrip creatures with resilient creatures - Leatherback Baloth, Predator Ooze. Also, I needed some 2cmc creatures, so I added 1 Scavenging Ooze to maybe have some fight with delve cards and goyfs. I left some card draw because well, I believed I needed some of it. 2 Abundant Growth to have access to red mana if I need early for some sideboard cards and Bonfire. Also there is a nice option to enchant Nykthos so it could generate green mana if we need to cast some creatures with only a few lands.
3)Nylea, God of the Hunt is a tutorable mana dump with nice effect of pumping and trampling. Also - solid creature.
4)Sideboard is kind a mess. Detritivore and Arashi for lolz, I want to have some fun playing this deck and these to cards (also Boil, Creeping Corrosion, Summoning Trap) offers very much fun time.
Now about some matches:
1. TarmoTwin (1-2)
I mulligan, he starts first. Eventually I put Predator Ooze and Nylea, God of the Hunt. I topdeck Craterhoof Behemoth and alpha strike him for 25 trample damage through some of his creatures and win game 1.
Game 2 I don't draw best hand, he has some early disruption with bolt and rather quickly comboes out.
Game 3 was grindfest, some of the most memoriable moments: 1) in order to fight his goyfs I casted Primal Command to shuffle my and his graveyards, gained 7 life and searched for a creature. He puts Splinter Twin on his Huntmaster so he gains some life and tokens. Long story short we are on turns and it's eather I kill him with Beast token and Predator Ooze, or he kills me with 4 wolf tokens and some other creatures. Also I have kessig and some mana. I calculate that my damage is right the amount he has life left, but it would work out only if I gave both of my creatures trample. So yeah, that was good game.
2. UWR geist (2-1)
Game 1 I mulligan, he gets my creatures of the table and attacks with Geist. Cannot do much, so we go to game2.
Game 2 he has Geist and Collonade, attacks me with both, I block Geist with my geist which has counter already. He is tapped, I cast Primal Command targeting his manland and attack for lethar with Craterhoof who just entered as I recall.
Game 3 He counters my creature, I cast Summoning Trap into Eternal Witness into Summoning Trap into Strangleroot Geist. I put bunch of creatures, he casts Engineered Explosives for 3, but I do not actually care as I have Geist without counter, Predator Ooze, Garruk and Nylea.
3. UR delver (0-2)
Nothing much to say, I did not draw very good, got stuck in few lands, he had 2 Young Pyromancer in game 1 and 1 in game 2. He made lot of tokens and simply attacked me for lethals.
4. Wasted.deck (1-2)
As I feel no pressure at all, I play kind a relaxed, but game 1 was absolute catastrophe as in opening hand I saw 0 lands, mulled to 6 and saw only one land - Nykthos, mull to 5 to see same only one nykthos. Yeah, I did half job to my oponent and he simply won the game.
Game 2 I am going aggresive with Obstinate Baloth, some other creatures and Craterhoof Behemoth for lethal.
Game 3 he had LOTS of discard, I couldn;t do much actually. Cannot recall much of that game. Probably I did wrong thing trying to get some value of keeping and not discarding Harmonize or Eternal Witness, as I should have jsut try to aggro him ASAP.
Random opinions: Predator Ooze was blast - excellent blocker, very resilient and adds lot of devotion. Leatherback Baloth appeared kind a weak - casted him one time, welp, but he got 2 burn spells, maybe not that bad. Bonfire of the Damned got drawn 1 time against UWR, but sure this card would be excellent draw against delver or TarmoTwin at almost any given time.
What I am planning on doing - increasing number of Oozes, maybe by removing Selkies, adding Kitchen Finks and some burn spell - either Pyroclasm, ol good Lightning Bolt, adding one more Bonfire of the Damned.
Feel free to comment.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THIS!!! This like this are so so helpful for all of us. I like your list. It is extremely "solid". It plays extremely efficient cards while also building up substantial devotion by turn four.
A few things I thought of while reading this:
1. The Summoning Trap into Eternal Witness into Summoning Trap idea is awesome. I can see how those who play Eternal Witness would most certainly want this as their answer to control/counterspells. Makes me feel bad I don't run Eternal Witness May have to add it as a one-of Really intersting interaction that is great to point out to everyone reading this post.
2. It seemed like a majority of your wins came from a Craterhoof Behemoth. Is this something that you find often (i.e. does Craterhoof win a majority of your games) or is this just something that happened this evening? I don't want to read too much into one night; but I've had a few buddies who've played more interactive versions of the deck (although not nearly as strong as I would consider yours) that seemed to do a lot but tended to actually win through Craterhoof a large majority of the time. This is not a negative thing by any means (you can tutor it up with Primal Command, you have card draw, etc. so you get to it consistently); I just wanted to see if it was a trend you found as well (i.e. that a majority of your wins came through Craterhoof. Most Devotion decks win on one big attack; so it's not crazy by any means. I just like to see the lines all devotion decks take; and wanted to know what percentage you would say you win with Craterhoof vs. Primeval Titan, Wolf Run, or just attacking someone down, etc.)
3. Is Delver typically a tough match up for you or was this just a case of poor draws. I test almost solely Elf builds of Devotion now; so findings like this are EXTREMELY helpful to me in learning more about the other builds. Obviously, Twin is tough for most green decks; but I'm interested to hear in general how you would rate Delver match ups for your list.
Thanks again for posting this. I really like you list! I completely agree too about Bonfire of the Damned. It is absolutely ridiculous in Devotion builds. I would think adding another one would only make your deck that much better.
I could definitely see Pod running a few copies for the same reason nearly every other green deck in Modern would. Instead of top decking your fourth Bird, you could just replace it with Zenith and grab any of the cards you listed...it would also help them combo in cases where they needed to gran a melira or a spike feeder (assuming their list plays one or both combos). It would be interesting to see though; as they can only run so many tutors! It would be interesting to see the breakdown of Pods, Chords, and Zeniths) :).
Such fun conversations come up when talking about unbanning things.
I forgot to add...so many of you also play inkmoth? If so, do you agree that it's worth it? Is Kessig the only way to pump it or are there other cards you play with it. Obviously, playing three Primeval Titan makes it a much more viable choice (as you can consistently tutor for both inkmoth and wolf Run)...but do any of you only running one or two Prime Time's run it?
Such interesting thoughts/topics...I thought this one potentially could be explored more. I have me ER used it in my builds (although I can see using it with Mirror Entity quite easily); but this is mainly due to the fact that I tend to run 2-3 Cavern of Souls (as they are very strong in elf builds) along with often 1 Kessig Wolf Run as well as 3-4 Nykthos...so I really don't have room for any more non-green lands...
Just seemed like an interestng topic and I don't know if anyone else had experiences (positive or negative) with it.
So, looking the lists that are posted here, many of them seem to rely heavily on the first and second incarnations of the mono-green modern lists...unfortunately those lists have a lot of negative draws. four burning tree emissaries is way too many. my current build runs two. that is enough to sometimes get a great devotion boost on turn two with BTE into a joraga or a birds of paradise. but i noticed that the red that it produces is often wasted in early plays unless i drop a satyr wayfinder. however, BTE off of a G Wave makes for a continued combo if you dont hit two lands. further, playing a wistful selkie looks like the best play for devotion, but its not always the case. especially for those of you who play the inkmoth version (which i highly recommend as it has helped me in so many games), the 3G cost of selkie is often harder to hit on turn 2 or 3. which means you are a turn late with your devotion and your combo. i found that carven caryatid is a better choice since it leaves you the 2G devotion with an option on the third mana. however, with further consideration and after talking with some of my friends, the obvious choice for that three drop slot now seems to be courser of kruphix. although not a straight card draw, it does net the advantage and allow you to filter your deck. plus the life gain is helpful against aggro/ mono red. that being said, one of the nastiest game locks is using the combination of primal command and eternal witness. four 8 mana you can return a land/enchantment/ or other non creature permanent to the top of their deck and search for another eternal witness to return the command from the grave. very useful when you find your opening against a control deck. i also run a one of wolfbriar elemental. although the tokens do not give devotion, it is often the case that drawing that card either wins the game or returns it to my favor by flooding the board. mana dorks are often the worst thing to be drawing mid to late game, so instead of full playsets i dropped to 2 birds or paradise, 3 arbor elves, and 2 joraga treespeakers. further i have two satyr wayfinders to keep the nykthos craziness going. i found that 3 Garruk wildspeakers was plenty as well as 3 Prime Times. in place of the fourth wildspeaker i added a Garruk, caller of beasts. NO NISSA!!! she looks good on paper but rarely is four forests worth it. id rather have the wildspeakers to keep moving forward and i can use all of his abilities to further my board state or push for the win.
overall the deck runs smoothly. i have six card draw creatures, and 2 main board primal commands to search up that perfect creature. it could use more card draw but harmonize does not add to the devotion and often becomes a wasted play despite drawing three cards. i tried running a one of amulet of vigor to go off faster with Prime Time but it was too clunky, so dont waste your time there. as far as sideboards go guttural response should make a showing and firespout for the delver matchups. i also board in an extra copy of primal command and fracturing gust for affinity. which i can cast turn 3 at the earliest and regain most of the life lost to them during those turns. overall the play is smooth but it is no where near as simple as it looks especially with the built in primal command/ e wit combo. if you havent tried out mono green, it is a hard matchup with mono red burn but still winnable especially after board. jund should be an easy win preboard. merfolk should be a win preboard just remember to side in aether vial hate. affinity gives the hardest game one matchup because they can ramp as fast or faster than you do. but fracturing gust is definitely an affinity killer.
I'd love to see your list!
I do agree that the more traditional build of devotion had/has too many poor draws/hands and no real card draw or engine or means to get out of them. I was never a huge fan; but I do think a lot of lists on here have veered away from the more traditional lists to focus on "smoother" lines (be it focusing more deeply in interaction and removing Genesis wave altogether, focusing more on combo and removing the the slower but more interactive cards, etc.).
BTE has been pretty polarizing. I feel like you either love it or hate it :). I'm not a huge fan of it; but I do understand the potential it has in several lists. The Elf lists have Heritage Druid, so if you don't hit lands you can still tap three untapped elves to trigger a Nykthos if you want to keep going...but I can see if you didn't have this option that you would want another way to trigger a Nykthos outside of hitting two lands. BTE does fit this bill and adds 2 devotion, so it has its Pro's...but you are absolutely right that often the red mana goes to waste early; and after that you just have a 2/2. It's definitely not a card that should go in every build and you are right that you don't always need to run four.
Thanks for posting your thoughts! They bring up some great points. If you get a chance; post your list and let us know how it does on both testing and in competitive matches.
Oh, man, if Green Sun's Zenith would be unbanned...how awesome would that be for Devotion decks? If Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are not banned, Green Sun's Zenith would definitely be on the same power level as those to compete. I'm so excited, can't wait for this to happen! So many decks would be benefited from this change...Zoo, Counter-cat, combo elves, Green Devotion, Jund... Modern would indeed see many more decks rise again.
CurdBros, how would you change the actual non-elf and elf Genesis Wave list with GSZ?
I think the biggest thing (which I beleive may have already been posted) is that we could definitely begin running a 1-of Dryad Arbor (as this can be pretty broken at times). Also, most of the decks running Summoner's Pact would most likely move into Green Sun's Zenith....there are situations where Summoner's Pact could still be used (i.e. even a recent example like Khalni Hydra...a Summoner's Pact could call him up and then you cast him for only 2-4 mana if you have creatures on board; where a Zenith would cost 9 mana...) however there are FAR more times where Zenith would be superior to Pact.
I don't know how much the "toolbox" lists would change too much...they tend to really love Chord (as they can get creatures of any color of creature and tend to focus heavily on the playability of the card as an instant). I think they'd still probably end up running at least one (just so they could have "extra copies" of Prime-Time, Craterhoof, and even things like Selkie (if they want to draw a card and increase their devotion quickly), etc.
It may help push "Combo Elves" (with beck/call, etc.) further up the Teir list, although it's not quite as useful as it is in the legacy build. The Dryad Arbor combo can be extremely powerful though (and it even works in devotion since Dryad Arbor is also technically a Forest.)
The real power of the card is really just in it's play-ability in nearly any green deck. It is just a VERY cheap way to begin running 1-less of many creatures and having the "open" ability to pick which one you want at a cost of only 1-green mana. It's just extremely usable in nearly every green deck even if only as a 1 or 2-of. There are definitely downsides (can't be Caveren-ed, doesn't hit off wave, things that pull Sorceries/Instants out of your hand but not creatures like Sin Collector hit it, etc.) but the upsides outweigh most of them in a majority of cases. Even being able to run a 1-of Reclamation Sage in Elf builds and only running 1-2 Zenith's would allow you to be much more confident that you would have the Reclamation Sage when you needed it.....it just "smooths out" our ability to curve; which can be absolutely HUGE in devotion decks in particular.
Of course, the combos it can open up are cool too. As you've stated; it can act as extra copies of random cars; so say you wanted to add in some random combo...you would only have to run 1-2 copies of either combo card and a 3-4 of Zenith; and you get to choose which card you need at the time for a cost of only 1-extra green. I say all of this like it is some sort of novel thing...but really it's just a super cheap Green Creature Tutor....which is AWESOME
For devotion builds, as I said above, being able to call up any card "on curve" is a huge advantage. One of the tougher parts of ramp decks and most more "traditional" devotion builds; you can sometimes run into situations where either (a) you have a lot of high CMC cards in hand with not enough mana on board (say they kill all of your dorks, etc.) and/or (b) you have a TON of mana; but you top deck only Utopia Sprawl, Arbor Elf, BTE, and a Courser (i.e. you need a finisher). Green Sun's Zenith gives you the ability to smooth these issues out (as you have the choice to either call up a mana dork OR a Craterhooof). At a cost of only 1-green mana (in decks that often have plenty of mana) the cost is completely worth it. The "smoothness" it provides us increases the power of the deck substantially even if you don't run Dryad Arbor or some kind of Combo.
The same goes for the Elf builds. Being able to call up a Reclamation sage, Ezuri, Craterhoof, or even Heritage Druid for only 1-green mana would definitely make the deck better. Even if I only ran of them, it would be a noticeable improvement (as you could run one less Archdruid and put in another win-con, play a main board Reclamation Sage because you know you have a good chance of getting it vs. Affinity, play a 1-of Elvish Champion in the board because you know you will most likely be able to play it quickly vs. green match-ups, etc.). Just as with the rest of the decks; it allows us (a) to smooth out our own curve and (b) run a more "specialized" board (and even 1 or 2 more narrow cards main-board) and be more certain we hit them.
I (of course) would love to see it unbaned for purely selfish reasons I'm not as certain it will happen; and I'm not actually as certain that it should happen. I think one of the "downsides" to straight up ramping should be the risk that you may run into situations where you either have too much or not enough mana. If we are given the ability to manipulate this quite easily; it is not a small improvement. We then have more mana than our opponents, but we also have the same ability to cast our spells as easily! I've always thought finding synergies among lower-casting-cost cards, using mana sinks, and/or finding ways to reduce casting costs was the way to minimize this "downside" to ramp decks. If we are given Green Sun's Zenith; it would make it so we could basically run straight up "ramp as hard as you can" decks without the worry of clunkiness. I'm not sure that is a good thing for Modern. May make green/ramp decks too powerful. Blue decks, however, are pretty darn powerful now; so it may even things out a bit. There really is no way to know the full effect unless it is tried out. I just don't think any super cheap tutors are ever that great of an idea. Having said that, I'd be perfectly happy if they unbanned it! Haha!
The Kitchen Finks thing is a really cool idea. Good Thinking Pafka!
I have found Nylea and Xenagos to be extremely powerful cards in devotion decks. In devotion decks they have a massive amount of utility. Nylea is ridiculous (especially in "fair" match ups). An indestructible 6/6 for four (90% of the time) that gives you a place to put all your excess mana AND gives the creatures you pump (and all creatures for that matter) trample becomes crazy. I've killed many a Pod player simply attacking with a 9/9 trample Elf for a turn or two even when the manage to block everything else.
I just recently started playing Xenagos (last 4-5 weeks when I moved to the Khalni Hydra build) and it is amazing. With things like Kessig Wolf Run, Nylea, Ezuri, and even Elvish Archdruid; you can turn a very little creature into a very big one quite quickly (especially off of a wave). He's become my main win-con off a huge wave (even if I tap every elf prior to the wave, I can use one of the "new" ones, pump it with Ezuri, Nylea, or Kessig Wolf Run...all of which give trample...and then he doubles their power and gives them haste! Most games, however, a 16/16 haste Khalni Hydra on turn 4 will do lethal. Hell, even a 3/3 Wolf token becoming a 6/6 haste wolf token can become a reasonable threat. I definitely advocate at least trying one or both Gods out. I bet they fit in a lot of decks. They have a TON of value built into them...and they are meant to be played in devotion decks
Here's my current list:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Khalni Hydra
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Abundant Growth
Instants/Sorceries
4 Genesis Wave
1 Summoner's Pact
Planeswalkers
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Lands
6 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Basically, the "philosophies" behind the deck are:
1. Utilize multiple "card draw" permanents and Genesis Waves that keep us constantly filling our hand and filling the board to overwhelm the opponent.
2. Find a secondary way to utilize these "support" / "card draw" permanents beyond devotion.
3. Find ways to make your mana dorks and support creatures into threats (so even if you top deck an Arbor Elf you aren't completely pissed
This way, the deck isn't nearly as clunky. Since we all must have mana dorks, and in my opinion you also have to have cantrip permanents; you have to find a way to best utilize these essential creatures that make up such a large percentage of the deck. This is where the "secondary uses" and "threat making" come in. In Elf decks, "secondary use enablers" include Khalni Hydra, Mirror Entity, Heritage Druid, and Chord of Calling (there are many more, but these are the best I've found thus far). Both Mirror Entity and Chord can be played easily in non-Elf decks. Cards that make them threats include Ezuri, Mirror Entity, Nylea, and Kessig Wolf Run. The two best "threat makers" for non-Elf decks are Nylea and Kessig Wolf Run.
We all know how important card draw is in devotion decks. It keeps us from running through our hand (as we generate mana so quickly), helps us dig to curve out better (the more cards we see each turn the better), and the more cards we have the more the opponent has to answer. Obviously I could go on and on; but it's pretty much common knowledge now that devotion decks need some form of card draw (and/or extremely resilient permanents like Strangleroot Geist or Kitchen Finks). And the best forms of card draw/advantage in devotion decks comes from permanents (namely creatures) that also draw cards. Great options include Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, Wistful Selkie, Courser of Kruphix, Carven Caryatid (great in aggressive metas), Eternal Witness (slightly different), and Eidolon Blossoms (although at 4-CMC this can be tough) and both Garruk Primal Hunter and Caller of Beasts. This is nothing new.
The "Secondary Use" cards are what becomes key. As an example...Coiling Oracle is good on it's own (draws a card...plays that card if it is a land, add's one devotion, etc.). But with Heritage Druid, Khalni Hydra, and/or Chord of Calling it becomes great! Now it draws a card (plays if land), adds one devotion, AND taps for a mana! With both Heritage Druid AND Khalni Hydra, it effectively "taps" for 2-mana (reduces Khlani by 1 just being on board, taps via Heritage Druid). By having "secondary use" cards; you're cantrips don't just draw a card and add devotion to your board. This is effectively what makes Khalni Hydra so strong. It is a "secondary use enabler" that is also a threat on its own. Khalni Hydra adds HUGE devotion; makes each mana dork and small cantrip creature even more valuable in your deck, and is a large threat to boot!
The "Threat Making" cards of course are a little more straight forward. For the most part they are simply mana-sinks. Kessig Wolf Run, Ezuri (in elf decks), Nylea, and Mirror Entity are the ones I've used thus far...but pretty much any card that turns you're little guys into large threats has potential. Devotion decks make a lot of mana and more important than nearly anything else is that we have somewhere to utilize that mana to our advantage. Making 20+ mana on turn 3-4 only matters if you can use it
The simple word for all this is "synergy". The elves create a ton of mana, which draws a bunch of cards, which plays the sinks, which makes them bigger, all of which increases devotion which allows you to play more cards, which draws more cards, which plays more sinks, which makes them bigger....and on and on. The tough parts are (a) making sure you can develop this synergy quickly and consistently (as being a non-interactive deck means you have to be able to win consistently by turn 4) and (b) making sure that no one part is the most important (as opponents will quickly figure this out and wait for it). Anywho, this is just a slightly different way to play devotion and can be used in different ways in other devotion decks.
A few other things I wanted to mention:
Charlesching...
I have not tried Bow of Nylea but it seems like it could definitely have a use in a world full of Delvers. Also, giving every little creature deathtouch is not nuthin!
Banchidudle...
I REALLY like the amount of card draw you've added into your deck. I talk about this a good amount above; but that goes a really long way to "smoothing out" a devotion/ramp deck.
iM4gic...
I think Polukranos for Wolfbriar is a good trade. Polukranos is a little more interactive; but that's probably a good thing seeing as how you have a good amount of beaters. I am a HUGE fan of mana-sink permanents in devotion decks. We make so much mana; that in order to get the full benefit of the mechanic we need to have places to spend all that mana as efficiently as possible (i.e. I don't want to have any mana left on any turn even if I can make 100 mana every turn
I like this list. It seems heavily tested and well tuned. It's simply the "best of the best" green spells (Prime Time, Genesis Wave, Primal Command, Garruk's, Courser, and Craterhoof, etc.) along with ramp to get you there quickly. Powerful and solid.
The Inkmoth Nexus thing is something I've been dying to try. I've begun testing it in decks with Mirror Entity (as the two can quickly win matches together). I already utilize Cavern of Souls in every deck and Kessig Wolf Run in decks with red, so I have to be very choosy with my utility lands...but in decks where I'm only splashing white and play Mirror Entity; I'm thinking Inkmoth may be a good choice. In your case, you have Kessig Wolf Run and Primeval Titan to call them up (so it's far more consistent).
You certainly have plenty of win-cons. Between Inkmoth, the Primal/Witness Lock, Primeval Titan, Wolfbriar Elemental, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Kessig Wolf Run; you've got numerous lines. The opponent won't be able to stop them all, and as you've discussed; even if they could you've got Banefire in the board! You definitely are not a "one line" deck which is great; but it's not "jumbled" either (all of the lines are dooable at the same time).
My only suggestion would be to replace Elvish Mystic with Arbor Elf...only because you play Utopia Sprawls and 13 Forests so most likely the upside would outweigh any downside of running into games where your only lands on board are Inkmoth and Nykthos (of course then you couldn't cast Elvish Mystic anyways
I can see how you would have somewhat of a "roller coaster" with this deck, although to be honest it looks pretty solid (and part of this is just variance in the game). The only way I could say you may be able to "smooth out" the deck a little is to add a few more "support cards" for card advantage. You already have 3 Visionaries, 3 Coursers, 4 Eternal Witness, 4 Genesis Wave (which can effectively work as "card advantage), and 4 planeswalkers...so you're not unreasonably light on "card advantage" cards. MAYBE (and this is really ticky tacky) you could replace 1 of your mana dorks for another "card draw" card (like another Visionary, Courser, etc.); however, (like I said earlier) it already looks like you've tuned this deck quite a bit so you probably have a pretty good grasp already on how often you want such cards...
All in all, other than the Arbor Elves, I would say there's not a whole lot I would change in this list. It runs somewhat like what I call a "Traditional" version of Green Devotion (obviously the list is not traditional, I just call devotion decks that play Genesis Wave, Primal Command, and Primeval Titan as their "core" win-cons to be "Traditional" as opposed to decks that focus on one or the other like Genesis Wave Combo decks or "Toolbox" decks that focus more heavily on the Primal Lock and Chord...), This list seems really powerful and for this style of deck it is pretty on point for what you're wanting to do.
Please keep us up to date on how it performs, tests, etc. and let us know of any changes and/or interesting synergies you run into! Very well tuned list! I love seeing different "versions" of devotion (Stompy, Elves, Toolbox, etc.); but sometimes it's just nice to see a tuned list based on the "traditional" best of the best green spells. Great list!
I'm glad to hear you had such success with Banefire. I'm not saying it's a bad card, I just wanted to make sure I pointed out that there are situations/builds where devotion players would be better off with Bonfire (and vice versa).
In those situations where bonfire was the wrong card to draw would Banefire have been the right card? When comparing two cards; I like to think of situations where one would be more useful to the deck. In this situations where your dorks had been killed or you didn't have a red source; how would Banefire have been better? Obviously; they're both dead without red; but I could see an argument where you only had 4 mana and the opponent is attacking with a flying creature with 3 toughness. In this situation, you're right that a non-miracle Bonfire couldn't handle it while a Banefire could. The trick is to try to figure out as many such scenarios as possible (where one is better than the other), determine how likely/often you deal with each scenario, and pick the one with more "pro's".
The honest truth is they really just different cards with different uses. For me, I don't have a lot of space for removal; so having a card that can function both as a board wipe as well as general spot removal while also going to the face if need be works best for me. I can't play symmetrical board wipes because my deck revolves around creatures being on the board. I'm sure there are other decks that would prefer the Firespout/Banefire combo.
A super simplification would be that if you're using the card mostly as an alternative win condition; Banefire is a better choice. If you're using the card more as a "support" card to deal with board situations you're not otherwise prepared for and/or problem creatures; I would say go with Bonfire.
In terms of an Elf version, there are a few important questions, but in general you really only want to run one ETB tapped land. I don't currently run any (as I've filled my "utility land" spots with Cavern of Souls, Kessig Wolf Run, and Nykthos)...but I do like Mosswort Bridge in Devotion decks in general. It has a very powerful upside with a very manageable downside in many decks. I'm actually quite surprised we haven't seen it more throughout this thread...
Oran-Rief, The Vastwood seems extremely interesting/synergistic (i.e. off of a Wave you could give everyone +1/+1, etc.) and sometimes it's nice to have a use for a land when you don't need the mana. Even making Garruk tokens 4/4 could be advantageous. It may end up being one of those "too cute" ideas; but there is every possibility you have all of the mana you need. I've not actually ever tested it; so I'd love to hear how they do. What would be really fun is to see if you could go crazy with Garruk Wildspeaker and/or Voyaging Satyr (untapping and triggering the ability 2-3 times in a turn to give everyone two or three counters...haha!.)
If you end up running 20 lands; you MAY be able to get away with two of them; but at 19 I'd probably one run 1. The early sequencing and spending mana efficiently on turns 1-3 is HUGE for this deck. It is what allows for you to do broken things on turns 3-5. Having a ETB tapped ability, there will be some games where it may slow down the "overwhelming" nature of the deck. Say you can't cast a Heritag, which in turn means you can't cast your Khalni Hydra on turn 3...this most likely will have an effect on your next turn...anywho, you get the picture. That said, playing one (maybe two) of such lands won't harm your speed/consistency all of the time; and as long as the benefit is worth it you're good!
As an aside...one land I've had in and out of the deck (although may put it back in since my current version doesn't run Nissa) is Pendlehaven. It's not a Forest, but it also comes into play untapped. It can tap for green immediately and/or can give an elf +1/+2. I can't tell you how may Electrolyze's, Forked Bolts, and other "ping" spells have been thwarted because I had a Pendlehaven. It can be nice too when blocking. Just a thought though.
Please do let us know how those lands play out (where they worth it, how often did the ETB tapped clause slow you down and/or limit your turn, examples when they were very powerful, etc.). Both are GREAT ideas btw. There's every possibility they are a great choice and should be in the deck(s).
Hey Pedros! I'll send you the list within the hour. I currently have two lists I'm in between; but they are literally only a couple cards different; so I'll send both and discuss the Core of the deck so you can choose which direction you think is best. I'll be home by 3:30-3:45 and will send it.
Thanks so much! Devotion is just the best mechanic ever :). As a green player through and through; I couldn't have been happier when it was spoiled...I started testing it the day Nykthos was spoiled (although I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really care for Polukranos at the time...I shouldn't mention this as there is no record beyond my telling my brother when he was spoiled, "5/5 for four is awesome; but he doesn't have trample, and how often are you really gonna have time to monstorous him?" Ha! In my defense, we only play Modern, so I was at least not talking Standard then :). I'm sure it's far from the worst call I'be made. Goes to show you why I test everything rather than taking my own word for it! Now on to your answers:
1. Craterhoof
That's super interesting. Obviously he's amount the best (if not the best) green win-cons of all time. And you're right in the fact that there are only so many win-cons (with Messig WE and Craterhoof being your most common). I had a feeling it may have been a little more of a coincidence that night (I.e. That you were top-decking it often) but I wanted to be sure for studying' sake.
That's really interesting that most scoop to the Primal Lock. I think have devalued the power of the lock in my mind for some reason. I always look at it as a "soft lock" that opponents still have a chance to play through. I always was a little "simple" in my thinking that for 8 mana you could just play Craterhoof (when in reality of course the "lock" cards can be played at 3, 5, and 8 mana depending on which cards you have and your position) so the flexibility cannot be overlooked. I've tested it and enjoyed it (although it's not really my Playstyle or the way I like to play devotion)...so you'd think I would have understood it's full potential. I think I was just biased due to my Playstyles preferences. From both your post as well as many others; I dont think I can really maintain the opinion that it's a "soft lock" any more
2. Delver / Sweepers
I've always loved a few cards against current Dver lists:
A. Bonfire - you put it perfectly. For those of us with the luxury of mana, bonfire often becomes a one-sided sweeper. It's great in dealing with 1/1 tokens.
B. Firesprout - the argument could be made (and its a good one) that if you are only using bonfire as a sweeper; you should be using Firespout to get more "bang for your buck" without worrying about a Miracle trigger. The only downside to this is that the effect is symmetrical. It hits your creatures too.
C. Ghostly Prison - I LOVE Ghostly Prison. It hurts so many decks! Merfolk, delver, Pod...even Boggles struggles because they never have much mana and have to choose between enchanting or attacking :). My favorite use of course is against twin. Make a million tokens for all I care...you can only attack with the few you can pay for.
These are my three favorites; although there are several things like Pyroclasm (which is especially good if your creatures tend to be 3/3 or bigger) that are great choices in certain decks as well. Anger of the Gods is amazing if you tend to run 4 toughness creatures (it absurdly destroys Pod because the voices and finks don't come back). I'm actually a fan of a combo of Ghostly Prison and Bonfire (depending on if you run any bonfires main). That way even if they create 1 million creatures you can kill them all.
3. Garruk
Garruk is amazing in Genesis Wave heavy builds for obvious reasons. It's the easiest way to "Chain" waves and/or have huge sums of mana to dump into your pumps (Ezuri, Kessig WR, Nylea, Mirror Entity, etc.). He's also amazing in Elf builds (as his overrun ultimate can be lethal if you have 3+ elves on board). I can totally see, however, Amy builds not running four Waves not needing or wanting four Wildspeakers. Primal Hunter seems amazing with Genesis Hydra; and Caller of Beastd is just axing period (his +1 is pure card advantage and his second ability can put the biggest creatures into play...and even if just puts in a leatherback you've gained three devotion and have an uncounterable creature). I sound like a broken record sometimes; but I'll say what I always do...give it a try! If it sounds like a good idea, chances are high that it will work out
Thanks again for posting and for adding all of this great info here. It's super helpful to everyone to hear about how each card/spell plays out in real matches. Keep up the good work; and let us know of any changes and/or future games! Awesome deck btw.
I'm not quite certain that's the case 100% of the time. Of course, I don't ever use terms like "completely outclassed" or "strictly better" or the like...so that's more of a semantic argument than what you really meant. I'm sure you just meant that a majority of the time one would be better off using Banefire than Bonfire in their build.
Banefire is an excellent spell, no doubt about it! One we should always have on our radar given the amount of mana we generate. Bonfire of the Damned, however, can be used as a boardwipe as well. Many green decks (especially devotion decks of the "combo" and "stompy" variety) don't have an ample amount of removal; so it's nice to have a spell that can function as both direct damage as well as removal for any and all problem creature(s) (including those with flying). The second you cast a Bonfire and wipe the entire Affinity board, kill multiple spirit tokens, or kill all young pyromancer tokens along with an insectile aberration, etc. you'll see that there may be situations where you are glad you had a Bonfire of the Damned
Having said this, these situations may very well be less than the situations where Banefire is superior. I've preferred Bonfire of the Damned only because of its potential to be an X-for-1 and it's ability to deal with Geist (although this may be more "local" of a benefit). I have had situations where I cast it to remove only one creature; but I was still happy to do so at the time
You do make a good point about the Miracle trigger. It does take away some of the control over the power of the spell. We (devotion players) are somewhat fortunate in the fact that we don't always have to cast Bonfire at its Miracle cost due to the amount of mana we generate. It does dampen the spell if we don't cast it at miracle; but even at X=3 it can be extremely powerful.
I am always open to discussions; so I'd love to talk about the builds and situations where Banefire is better than Bonfire and vice versa; but I'm not certain that Banefire completely outclasses Bonfire in a multitude of scenarios in the current Modern meta (when discussing Devotion decks). I will have to test Banefire a little more; however, as I have had much more experience with Bonfire (so my opinion may be a little biased). While Banefire will always either be direct damage and/or a 1-for-1 removal spell; you are right that it is very difficult to deal with (given that it can't be countered past X=5). Bonfire, however, can be used as a boardwipe, a "Searing Blaze" type spell (damage and removal), or just a straight up Fireball effect...great topic though. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on the subject! I'll definitely try out Banefire though in my testing to see if it is a better fit.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THIS!!! This like this are so so helpful for all of us. I like your list. It is extremely "solid". It plays extremely efficient cards while also building up substantial devotion by turn four.
A few things I thought of while reading this:
1. The Summoning Trap into Eternal Witness into Summoning Trap idea is awesome. I can see how those who play Eternal Witness would most certainly want this as their answer to control/counterspells. Makes me feel bad I don't run Eternal Witness
2. It seemed like a majority of your wins came from a Craterhoof Behemoth. Is this something that you find often (i.e. does Craterhoof win a majority of your games) or is this just something that happened this evening? I don't want to read too much into one night; but I've had a few buddies who've played more interactive versions of the deck (although not nearly as strong as I would consider yours) that seemed to do a lot but tended to actually win through Craterhoof a large majority of the time. This is not a negative thing by any means (you can tutor it up with Primal Command, you have card draw, etc. so you get to it consistently); I just wanted to see if it was a trend you found as well (i.e. that a majority of your wins came through Craterhoof. Most Devotion decks win on one big attack; so it's not crazy by any means. I just like to see the lines all devotion decks take; and wanted to know what percentage you would say you win with Craterhoof vs. Primeval Titan, Wolf Run, or just attacking someone down, etc.)
3. Is Delver typically a tough match up for you or was this just a case of poor draws. I test almost solely Elf builds of Devotion now; so findings like this are EXTREMELY helpful to me in learning more about the other builds. Obviously, Twin is tough for most green decks; but I'm interested to hear in general how you would rate Delver match ups for your list.
Thanks again for posting this. I really like you list! I completely agree too about Bonfire of the Damned. It is absolutely ridiculous in Devotion builds. I would think adding another one would only make your deck that much better.
I could definitely see Pod running a few copies for the same reason nearly every other green deck in Modern would. Instead of top decking your fourth Bird, you could just replace it with Zenith and grab any of the cards you listed...it would also help them combo in cases where they needed to gran a melira or a spike feeder (assuming their list plays one or both combos). It would be interesting to see though; as they can only run so many tutors! It would be interesting to see the breakdown of Pods, Chords, and Zeniths) :).
Such fun conversations come up when talking about unbanning things.
Such interesting thoughts/topics...I thought this one potentially could be explored more. I have me ER used it in my builds (although I can see using it with Mirror Entity quite easily); but this is mainly due to the fact that I tend to run 2-3 Cavern of Souls (as they are very strong in elf builds) along with often 1 Kessig Wolf Run as well as 3-4 Nykthos...so I really don't have room for any more non-green lands...
Just seemed like an interestng topic and I don't know if anyone else had experiences (positive or negative) with it.
I'd love to see your list!
I do agree that the more traditional build of devotion had/has too many poor draws/hands and no real card draw or engine or means to get out of them. I was never a huge fan; but I do think a lot of lists on here have veered away from the more traditional lists to focus on "smoother" lines (be it focusing more deeply in interaction and removing Genesis wave altogether, focusing more on combo and removing the the slower but more interactive cards, etc.).
BTE has been pretty polarizing. I feel like you either love it or hate it :). I'm not a huge fan of it; but I do understand the potential it has in several lists. The Elf lists have Heritage Druid, so if you don't hit lands you can still tap three untapped elves to trigger a Nykthos if you want to keep going...but I can see if you didn't have this option that you would want another way to trigger a Nykthos outside of hitting two lands. BTE does fit this bill and adds 2 devotion, so it has its Pro's...but you are absolutely right that often the red mana goes to waste early; and after that you just have a 2/2. It's definitely not a card that should go in every build and you are right that you don't always need to run four.
Thanks for posting your thoughts! They bring up some great points. If you get a chance; post your list and let us know how it does on both testing and in competitive matches.
I think the biggest thing (which I beleive may have already been posted) is that we could definitely begin running a 1-of Dryad Arbor (as this can be pretty broken at times). Also, most of the decks running Summoner's Pact would most likely move into Green Sun's Zenith....there are situations where Summoner's Pact could still be used (i.e. even a recent example like Khalni Hydra...a Summoner's Pact could call him up and then you cast him for only 2-4 mana if you have creatures on board; where a Zenith would cost 9 mana...) however there are FAR more times where Zenith would be superior to Pact.
I don't know how much the "toolbox" lists would change too much...they tend to really love Chord (as they can get creatures of any color of creature and tend to focus heavily on the playability of the card as an instant). I think they'd still probably end up running at least one (just so they could have "extra copies" of Prime-Time, Craterhoof, and even things like Selkie (if they want to draw a card and increase their devotion quickly), etc.
It may help push "Combo Elves" (with beck/call, etc.) further up the Teir list, although it's not quite as useful as it is in the legacy build. The Dryad Arbor combo can be extremely powerful though (and it even works in devotion since Dryad Arbor is also technically a Forest.)
The real power of the card is really just in it's play-ability in nearly any green deck. It is just a VERY cheap way to begin running 1-less of many creatures and having the "open" ability to pick which one you want at a cost of only 1-green mana. It's just extremely usable in nearly every green deck even if only as a 1 or 2-of. There are definitely downsides (can't be Caveren-ed, doesn't hit off wave, things that pull Sorceries/Instants out of your hand but not creatures like Sin Collector hit it, etc.) but the upsides outweigh most of them in a majority of cases. Even being able to run a 1-of Reclamation Sage in Elf builds and only running 1-2 Zenith's would allow you to be much more confident that you would have the Reclamation Sage when you needed it.....it just "smooths out" our ability to curve; which can be absolutely HUGE in devotion decks in particular.
Of course, the combos it can open up are cool too. As you've stated; it can act as extra copies of random cars; so say you wanted to add in some random combo...you would only have to run 1-2 copies of either combo card and a 3-4 of Zenith; and you get to choose which card you need at the time for a cost of only 1-extra green. I say all of this like it is some sort of novel thing...but really it's just a super cheap Green Creature Tutor....which is AWESOME
For devotion builds, as I said above, being able to call up any card "on curve" is a huge advantage. One of the tougher parts of ramp decks and most more "traditional" devotion builds; you can sometimes run into situations where either (a) you have a lot of high CMC cards in hand with not enough mana on board (say they kill all of your dorks, etc.) and/or (b) you have a TON of mana; but you top deck only Utopia Sprawl, Arbor Elf, BTE, and a Courser (i.e. you need a finisher). Green Sun's Zenith gives you the ability to smooth these issues out (as you have the choice to either call up a mana dork OR a Craterhooof). At a cost of only 1-green mana (in decks that often have plenty of mana) the cost is completely worth it. The "smoothness" it provides us increases the power of the deck substantially even if you don't run Dryad Arbor or some kind of Combo.
The same goes for the Elf builds. Being able to call up a Reclamation sage, Ezuri, Craterhoof, or even Heritage Druid for only 1-green mana would definitely make the deck better. Even if I only ran of them, it would be a noticeable improvement (as you could run one less Archdruid and put in another win-con, play a main board Reclamation Sage because you know you have a good chance of getting it vs. Affinity, play a 1-of Elvish Champion in the board because you know you will most likely be able to play it quickly vs. green match-ups, etc.). Just as with the rest of the decks; it allows us (a) to smooth out our own curve and (b) run a more "specialized" board (and even 1 or 2 more narrow cards main-board) and be more certain we hit them.
I (of course) would love to see it unbaned for purely selfish reasons