How dose your supper fast combo Handel the U splash Burn MU (for those that didn't know, ya this is a thing now)? With all that interaction and resilancy it looked great so I built it up (stupidly cheep tier 1 deck) and tested it with my play group putting it through the ringer of a bunch of tier 1 decks. Out of 150 games managed a turn 3 kill 75% of the time and smashed em all game 1.
After board prenetages went down (obviously) but even from this small sample size it seems as if this will be the new boogie man of the format.
Edit: I am not tring to say the sky is falling or anything. I'm really not. This is just something we need to be aware of if we are to survive and thrive in this meta
You are absolutely 100% right that Burn and U-Burn are now HUGE things. We've been testing against a version with 4-of's of Monastary Swiftspear, Goblin Guide, and the red Eidolon and it is definately a tier-1 deck...we also built a version splashing U for Treasure Cruise (as it's worth the splash!)
In terms of my testing against Burn thus far; it actually depends heavily on how the burn player plays the deeck. They have to be careful not to just keep going straight to the face as if you give the deck three-four turns to build the board up without disrupting it; it will "go off" most of the time. They also can't spend too much of their spells on killing off every little elf I put down (as it just slows them down). If they kill off early Arbor Elves, Heritage Druids the second they drop (even if they can tap and "trigger" once) and put down a few creatures; they will have a really good chance against me. A card that is great against my deck in burn is Searing Blaze.
Post-board, however, it gets pretty tough for burn. I play 3x Leyline of Sanctity, 2x Mark of Asylum, and currently run a 2-of Essence Warden in the board (mainly due to the huge presence of burn, UR Delver decks, and Twin decks...) I've found that these changes tend to push me well ahead. I don't always put in both Mark of Asylum (if the burn deck seems more of a "too your face" deck; but I'm keeping them in the baord for decks that run Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods (like G/R Tron, some UR builds, UWR control, some Twin builds, etc.)
I would say that burn is slightly favored in game one; but that's kinda the benefit of plying burn. If you're not favored in Game One with a majority of matches with a burn deck, you got problems I was actually a little surprised as to how well the deck held up to Burn in game one (as I figured that basically Burn and Twin would be my two toughest match-ups). Granted, I have only tested a total of 24 "game one's" against burn thus far (and even fewer with the Bell-Ringer in the deck which may change things slightly but probably not noteceably).
And you are absolutely right to build that deck. I honestly believe the Mono Red Burn and U-Splash Burn are both "Tier 1" at this point. With the right board; they can win 2 out of three games against nearly every top-tier deck. Obviously, they (as all focused fast decks do) do have match ups that are extremely difficult for them (Jeskai with 3-4 Helixes, Soul Sisters, etc.)...but even then if game one goes their way, they only have to win 1 out of 2 post-board. And with Treasure Cruise, burn can have a lot more late-game play (especially those playing fetches and Shard Volleys...we even saw one running two of Tormenting Voice to take advantage of Treasure Cruise (although that probably was taking it a little too far).
With the addition of Monestary Swiftspear, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and now Cruise; Burn has become FAR more resilient than it used to be. It's a huge portion of the meta (especially online) and is only going to grow.
The speed of the deck and the amount of card draw (as I can keep throwing things at them that they have to choose to remove or not) gives me a chance in game one...and I've devoted half of my board to it (although of course some of the cards like Essence Warden, Leyline, and even Mark of Asylum do work against other match-ups). Even the UR Delver decks have a large Burn aspect to them. You are 100% right it is something that we need to be ready for. Fortunately, my deck (thus far in testing) has been able to maintain a 60%+ winning record against burn decks thus far (in "2 out of 3" matches where game one is pre-board and 2 and 3 are post-board). I'll test it much more before I post my overall teesting results; and I will make sure to test the U version specifically more. Great points!!!
Another card I've been thinking about trying in the board is Ethereal Haze. It buys me a turn against both Twin and Jeskai Ascendancy; which is all a combo deck can ask for. I'll let you know if the card works in enough match ups to make it in the board.
Great conversations guys! It's always fun when meta's shift thanks to new cards. Gives us brewers more to think about We green mages have the most trouble, though, as we don't have a lot of the instant-speed cards to deal with everything that can change (which leads to more "fundamental" changes in decks). But that's half the fun! Great points and great ideas!
In terms of 2-drops, I'm partial to both Elvish Visionary and even more so to Coiling Oracle. Oracle is unreal as it draws a card and ramps (if it's a land). Being able to play an additional land can be huge. Of course, if you're not already playing blue or elves (as you can take advantage of Cavern of Souls), the splashing may not be worth it. I can't imagine there is a better 2-drop than Strangleroot (Haste + Undying is CRAZY in a devotion deck) for the Stompy versions of this deck (I've built my own "Stompy" version and Strangleroot seems to be one of the All-stars)...and for the "Silver Bullet" version you end up with many more choices...I would think Scavenging Ooze would be good for you (as it is good graveyard hate and good hate for Treasure Cruise decks)...but there are a TON of 2-drops out there.
The card I think could be AMAZING in the Chord versions would be Wall of Roots. It has such powerful synergy with the deck. It is a great early blocker, can generate mana the turn it comes into play, and acts as 2-mana for a Chord. If I ran a Chord/Silver Bullet version of the deck; I would at least test Wall of Roots. I think actually the Purklefluff may have done this in the past; so he would be a good source of info on this front. Pedros did too I believe. He would know better as well. I'll look up some cards I've written down in the past and see if I can't think of something more useful for the Chord versions of the deck.
I think they go something like this:
Elf Combo
Coiling Oracle
Elvish Visionary
Stompy
Strangleroot Geist
Chord/Silver Bullet
Wall of Roots
Scavenging Ooze
Lotus Cobra
Genesis Wave Traditional
Burning-Tree Emissary
Elvish Visionary
Lotus Cobra
CurdBros, I'd *love* to be able to give you some answers in full but I can't just now! However, one thing I am doing, and it's partially to satisfy my own curiosity, partially to help the Primer, and partially to see if my own experience stacks up with everyone else's is as follows.
Using http://metadeck.me I've printed out 36 of the most likely modern decks (or versions of them) and am going to run through Game 1 iterations on the play and on the draw (10 for each) THe plan will be to find out, or at least get a sense for which match ups are unfavoured, and if there is a difference to on the play vs on the draw (I'm guessing, as an example, against infect and other combo's there absolutely will be)
ideally this will help my deck recognition from as few cards as possible and look for my outs as well as refining what a keepable hand looks like (as it's sometimes more difficult to get a feel for this in an unknown game 1) it will also inform which choices are subpar in the deck, or which ones can come out after sideboarding. I'll report back, though it won't be soon. but basically anything you see in the proven or established section (with a few creation options) are on the table
as for permanents vs spells, I currently have 8 non-permanents and 3 permanents with no green in. (maybe 4 if I *do* end up adding the obliterator) I'd suggest that 12 non-green non-permanent spells is somewhere in the correct ball-park, but as to what the optimum number is I'm not sure, but it does bear looking at. The beauty of the silver bullet, (at least for me) is that a few of the cards simply *LOCK OUT* some decks from the game. and I find that a very attractive proposition as you can one-of them and fetch when needed. The key is to ascertain which decks are the ones which require which bullet.
One interesting thing I've found (and I'll certainly bear the truth of this out in the testing) is that the way my version has been playing it appears that my Tron Matchup is getting less favourable pre-board (at least when I think about it) so it will be interesting to see how that works out!
I'll report back when I have some testing done in my Game 1 Matchups and I have more data on what I feel I/we (mileage may of course vary) need to look out for and what did/didn't help!
That is AWESOME!!! I can't wait to hear what you find. It sounds super promising already.
Sorry, somehow the deck didn't show up. I'll re-format it.
This discussion is AWESOME! I did have a quick set of questions for many of the non-wave, non-combo deck builders/pilots (i.e. the Stompy, Primal Command, and/or Silver Buillet or Chord versions). It's really interesting to see all of the ideas such as Polukranos, Primal Command, Sweepers, Enchantment Killers, etc.; but my questions are:
(A) Are you finding it easy to cast these spells in time to have an effect on the quicker combo decks?
(B) How many copies are you playing to actually draw into them when you need them?
(C) Have you found introducing more interactive spells (often times instants) into the main board has led to worsening the "devotion" aspect of the deck?
(D) Where is (if there is a "range" or anything) the "line" for how many non-permanent spells you can play and still maintain consistent devotion (i.e. enough devotion to warrant the use of Nykthos)?
I'm seeing people (and talking to people) saying a lot of things such as "....I have 3 Chords, so I can Chord for an Eidolon or a Magus..." or "...I've just added 4 Paths main, a few X's, and a bunch more enchantment destruction in the board..." or "...I just run Blood Moon main board now..." ...my concern comes from the fact that "Chording" for Eidolon or Magus takes 6-mana/creatures. The Primal Command/Witness lock costs more. Blood Moon "Shuts off" Nykthos. With full sets of disruptive cards; how do you build devotion? Basically, is there a point where you become better off playing a non-devotion deck (like Jund, Pod, etc.) if you're goal is to be disruptive? Don't get me wrong. I think disruption is a great way to go in the meta...and I think Chord is one of the coolest ideas there is in Devotion...I just want to continue the conversation to see if/how Devotion can be a viable "disruptive" deck. I'd love to see some of your lists! Does it hold it's own compared to other disruptive decks? At what point are you better off just running Jund or Pod? I DON'T want people to move away from Devotion. Please don't get me wrong. This is literally just continuing the conversation (as it is a spectacular one) as how devotion can function in the current meta in different ways.
I play combo/wave; so for me, the "answer" for me was to "speed up" and make changes to the the side board. The changes do reduce the "favored" status you have against midrange builds (although I've still found the match-ups to be in my favor although not a "blowout" like it used to be); but it does give me the ability to play as quickly as other decks... I'm still not even close to 100% sure/confident of my list, my board, and exactly how I'm going to attack the current meta. I haven't tested nearly as much or tuned as much as my last list. The "Core" is the same (Elves, Garruk, Wave); however the speed and win-cons are far different (lower average CMC, more same-turn untapping, loss of Archdruid, much more focus on instant-speed abilities such as Heritage Druid, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Mirror Entity, etc.) Basically, my testing kind of "pushed" me in this direction due to the Meta shifts....and now I'm working on tuning this "Elf Combo" list. But that is (in my opinion) the best way to build the Elf Combo decks in the current meta. I just want to know if there has been a lot of actual testing of the new ideas being discussed with the other versions of Green Devotion?
It's one thing to point out that your deck has answers for certain decks/cards. It's entirely another to test the deck and see how often you (a) actually have that answer when you need it and (b) have the mana to cast it the moment you need to. My largest general concern is that in order to play a "reactive" game, you have to hold up mana...which is somewhat counter to what Devotion (as a mechanic) wants to do. Are there more "permanent-based" ways to be reactive? Theory is absolutely needed and important, and there are always answers to problems...but seeing how the answers play and if they are actually viable can only be found through testing.
I think a good part of my questions literally comes from my idea of how Devotion runs and how I prefer to play it (i.e. my playstyle)...so my concerns may be less of an issue than I assume due to my lack of testing such versions. I see Devotion as more of an "overwhelm" mechanic that is built on board state (as it literally counts your board); and playing a "reactive" game is somewhat counter to the mechanic. Seeing all of the amazing lists and results from many of the great brewer on here, however; has already proved that Devotion can be just as strong in a more "reactive" and "interactive" build. It will be really interesting to see how these builds change to meet the current Meta shifts.
One important thing I also tend to forget as well is that no deck is favored against all decks/archetypes in a format. Sometimes I will get "too far down the rabit hole" trying to build main board that has an answer to every top-tier deck in the format. Blue/Red Deliver is amazing (especially now with Cruise); but there are some decks it has little to no chance against in game one. With the Meta (especially online) being so heavy in UR Delver and Burn; we're gonna see a lot of Soul Sisters going 3-1 and 4-0 The trick is not to find a deck with no bad match-ups. The trick is to know what your bad match-ups are and ensure your sideboard can put you in a winning position in games two and three.
Having said all of this, the only thing that really speaks is results. And without any, at this point I/we are just "theorizing" and discussing But we are darn good at it! I've never enjoyed conversation about a deck/archetype more. We'll make it work; and discussions like this help more and more. It will take us some time, but the more ideas we test, the more cards we try out, the more Meta's we work in, etc. the better chance we have in developing great Green Devotion lists that can be Top Tier decks. I'm SOOO interested to see the Black versions you guys are creating and how the "Chord" or "Silver Bullet" versions are changing to combat the current Modern Meta shifts. Keep up the awesome discussion!
I have been testing heavily against some of the "new meta" as well. You guys are absolutely right that the G-Wave versions of the deck absolutely destroyed Midrange and Fair decks (Pod, Junk, Jund, Delver, Tron, etc.) and these are the exact decks that are seeing less and less play...
I personally "combated" this by tuning my deck to become a much faster "combo" version. It's not quite as resilient as my Temur Version, but it is super fast.
I feel like current Modern with Ascendancy, Twin, U/R Delver with Cruise, etc. you either have to be an extremely fast/combo deck (i.e. turn 3 possibility with relative consistency by turn 4&5) like Twin, Ascendancy, Burn, Amulet, or even Storm; or have a deck full of value cards that can be disruptive (like Junk, Jund, UR Delver, and Jeskia Geist/Delver). I do think that Digg Through Time and Treasure Cruise have made viable Grixis and Esper decks as well; but of the "old Meta" many decks were hurt by some of the new cards. The decks that used to kind of "go over the top" like Tron, Green Devotion (unfortunately), some Pod builds, many Junk variants, and some of lesser-seen Midrangy decks have fallen by the wayside a little. This probably won't end up as drastic as it is now (as many people have picked up Ascendancy, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Through Time out of the excitement of them being new (and as often happens the community overacts)
You guys are right though. I can't disregard things just because they don't look good for me/us. I test against not only the current meta, but also I tend to put more weight on what seems to be "coming up"; so I've been testing against Ascendancy, Burn, and Twin (with Dig Through Time), and UR Delver (with Treasure Cruise) for a couple weeks now. I have NO WHERE NEAR enough testing under my belt; but it definitely instantly showed me that I had to find a way to utilize Devotion (and in my case Elves since that's what I've tested the most) in a much faster way (as it is REALLY difficult to play a mid-range version when 50% of the meta is trying to combo off on turn 3-4 and 30% of the meta has been built to dismantle their opponents board and/or hand (when we run a deck that is very board-centric).
Anywho, I'm kinda rambling; but this is the list I'm currently trying:
Not entirely sure about the Village Bell Ringer (it is the newest of the additions so it's only been tested for about 30 games....Thus far, however, it's actually been really cool (lets me re-tap all my elves, steal with Gilt-Leaf, and lets me attack post-wave with non-summoning-sick elves I tapped earlier in the turn).
I've also been fiddling around with a 1-of Drift of Phantasms (as it can Transmute for Genesis Wave, Mirror Entity, and many sideboard cards); but even transmuting seems a little slow despite the crazy amounts of quick mana we generate)...I also have tried Joraga Treespeaker, splashing red, and numerous sideboard options...but testing thus far has proven that the deck is definitely fast enough for the current meta (and is actually a little more consistent than my other builds). You do give up a little resiliency for Midrange match-ups; but I've found that I'm still favored. I do want to find a better answer for flyers; so that will be a focus on my testing tomorrow.
Anywho, can't wait to hear more discussion on the "new Meta" and I'll post my testing results on here this week. I'm also purchasing the remainder of this deck on MTGO and will try out a few dailies sometime soon. Have always been a paper player; so it should be fun!
Excited to hear about some of the new builds you guys are coming up with! Great discussion!
I have decided to make some changes to the deck, so now it is an Elves devotion deck. So far it have performed fairly well in test matches, I have beaten Melira Pod, Burn and U/W control, I only lost to Scapeshift. I might try to add another colour to the deck.
I like this deck a lot. I've never really tried the primal lock my elf builds; but I LOVE Eternal witness. One of the most powerful things you can do in a Genesis wave deck is to "string" waves (Garruk off the first wave untaps a nykthos and/or you get a nykthos off the wave so you can re-trigger) and Eternal Witness makes sure that if you hit a wave off your first wave you can just grab it from the yard!
This looks like a really solid elf build. If you add a color, I'd go red (adds Kessig which can turn any elf into a threat, can add haste enablers like Sarkhan Vol, and opens up the sideboard.) but this is a REALLY solid elf list. I can't imagine any fair decks having a chance :). Great brew!
I'm farting around with glittering wish, 1-of Witness, and of course sideboard options! Post my results this weekend.
Ha! I didn't see that Green Power had posted the Tapped out page with my initial Eidolon Build. I should have read ahead
In all seriousness though, I truly think there may be a competitive Eidolon list out there. Seeing my list did remind me how much I loved Aspect of the Hydra too It's fun to attack with a 1/1, have them let it go through, and then play a 1-mana "you're creature gets +10/+10! So many great green devotion cards. Makes for both a great pool of cards to choose from; but also makes brewing tough as there are so many options!
At the time, I was in LOVE with the whole "Primalcrux + Xenagod" combo where you'd hit both (via Wave or Tooth and Nail) and have like a 14/14 that would have haste and "double" to 28/28 Trample. Was a fun win-con. Summoner's Pact helped smooth it out a bit. That being said, I'm sure there are better Eidolon lists out there (including yours).
I'd love to see your Eidolon list Damocles69! Mine was made quite some time ago (a few sets ago) and I'm sure there are other great cards that can fill in some slots. so I'm sure there is a better list out there; and I would love to see how you've taken advantage of it and how it performs. Thanks for posting this. It's an interesting discussion. Can't wait to see your list!
With the large amouts of enchantments I am running (courser, utopia, Nylea) in MB and SB (choke, wheel of sun and moon, stoney silance) I have been running Eidolon of Blossums as a draw engine and it has been amazing. While failing the bolt test it dose survive abrupt decay which I would argue is almost more popular since the rise of Assendacy Storm. Food for thought
This is a GREAT card. I did the same thing at one point because I tend to run both Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growths in 4-of's (and Abundant Growth and Nylea's Presence draw 2-cards with Eidolon out as well as the sideboard cards you discussed. I haven't looked at the list in a while; and I have no doubt you could build a stronger one than I did. We've all learned so much on the thread that I bet there is a great Eidolon list out there. I'd love to see yours. I didn't test it enough... I remember feeling the deck ended up feeling a little slow; but it was still really good. It definately made a later-game top deck Utopia Sprawl or Abundant Growth something you wanted to see! And with Courser it is just an outrageous amount of card advantage. I have no doubt a competitive list could be built with Eidolon in it. At the time I build it, I was "all in" in on quick Genesis Wave decks; and did not give it the credit it is due. It's a GREAT idea though. I would love to see your list and hear more about it! Could be a stand out list!
I revisited my own experiments with it as well, and remembered having loved one card that, for some reason I can't remember now (probably for the sake of trying out new things in it's place), I opted to keep out, but that is truly awesome: Harmonize. It gives massive card advantage. I immediately took my textless promo ones and shuffled them back into MB, and oh, man, are they good. The thing about re-filling your hand is that you can focus on the essence of the strategy of Genesis Wave build, instead of diluting it with cards for the "just in case I ran out of gas", etc. Surely, you can also consider Elvish Visionary for example, but what I love about Harmonize is that if you recover it with Eternal Witness, you get to draw more cards, at the cost of one less devotion.
So here is the list I'm playtesting right now, with great results against Jund and Junk, which were giving me problems in my last FNM's. Sideboard is heavily focused on my worst matchups: Affinity, Twin and Infect. Having removed Nylea, God of the Hunt, Courser of Kruphix, Polukranos, World Eater(though it may be back MB for POD, since it proved really strong at wiping out their board) and Primal Commands, it suddenly feels more pure, more focused on what it needs to be doing. I'm even considering adding a singleton Sylvan Scrying to keep this line of action.
I love the list! I think the most powerful thing you can do in Green is draw cards; and having a streamlined list that simply overwhelms the opponent wins a lot of games.
Genesis Wave is one of the most powerful Modern-legal green spell printed. I know a lot of lists went away from it, and with good reason. One thing you learn pretty quickly playing Genesis Wave is that the deck has to be built "around" the wave (i.e. you want to make the most of it). It forces you to play permanent-heavy decks which can be extremely difficult. In this case, however, you have other great cards (Prime Time of course basically being the most effective green creature ever) to win even if you don't hit a wave.
The more I look at it, the more I think that this list is a GREAT Genesis Wave list. It's straight forward, and that's great. It builds the board quickly, and nearly all of the cards will "hit" off of a wave for 3-4 except the two "win-cons" (which will hit off of the larger waves or simply get hard-cast for the win) so in those situations where you need to cast a "small wave" to set up a win the next turn you can do it.
My history playing Wave Devotion decks has led me to the opinion that the best Wave decks simply overwhelm the opponent; and this deck does just that. The only "suggestion" I have is to try to throw in one Sarkhan Vol (just to give you haste if you cast a HUGE wave to ensure you win the same turn); but other than that, I can't see anything else I would change. I can't wait to hear how this does. This is a great Wave list. Let us know how it plays against things. Looks like it's going to destroy "fair" decks!
I do not know the metagame that will be in the tournament. What would you put into the place that I have on the SB?
This is a really good example on the type of deck to bring to a relatively unknown meta. You have some "general answers" (Path to Exile, Beast Within) but still maintain the focus of the deck. In terms of the board, other good options include Creeping Corrosion (for Affinity) and Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Mill, Discard/Rack decks, and many others). But you have a very deep board (which you can fortunately do with Chord of Calling) so you look to be in darn good shape. Neat list! I'll keep reading to see how it did!
You have my results and the final list I took to the tournament in the page 30
I saw that! I try to read, comment/answer things in order. That's why I said, "...I'll keep reading to see how it did!" I just wanted to point out some of the great things you did for an unknown meta. Often times, we hone our decks to the overall "Modern Meta" based on sites such as MTG Top 8, MTG Pulse, and even the PT results; but going to tourneys, playing in Dailies, or even local FNM's often can be far different...so I was applauding the more generalized answers you had used to tackle an unknown meta. I did see the results as well. So much good info there. Thanks for taking the time to post all of that! Super helpful for the rest of us.
Playing this deck a bunch I have made the following observations:
- Swiftspear is amazing. Conversely, playing her makes counterspells bad. Play 4 swiftspears and 0 counterspells.
- Snapcasters are very poor with cruise. I have found that 3 is the perfect number for cruise. Play 0-1 snapcasters.
- A total of 27-28 instants sorcs make your delvers flip very very consistently without scrying and ensures that your swiftspears are always amazing.
- Path to exile is better than vapor snag because it doesn't reset etb triggers. Everyone should play 4 PTE if you are playing in any meta with tier 1 decks.
- 18 lands is a great number, assuming you play the full suite of serums and probes. I play 3 geists as curve-toppers and I am able to cast them consistently without flooding or being screwed. I wouldn't explore anything that costs more than 3.
- With all that said, 18 lands, 28 spells, and 14 creatures is a great ratio to work with. 8 of those creatures are locked in: 4 Delvers and 4 Swiftspears. I'd say that 23 spells are locked in for you: 4 bolts, 4 helixes, 4 paths, 4 probes, 4 serum visions, 3 treasure cruise. That leaves you with 6 creatures and 5 spells to play around with.
- A playset of meddling mages in the sb will help alleviate your combo issues.
While I appreciate the development that you've pointed out here, I can't help but feel that if we go down that route, we're very much just playing a glorified burn deck. One could even say that we're playing a BAD burn deck, because we take time and sacrifice burn in our deck to needlessly interact with the opponent.
Having played a ton (and I mean a TON) of games with Swiftspear, I can safely say that she is *not* worth the hype she gets. Yes, she is a very good creature - even better than Goblin Guide - but she is not worth destroying the fact that this is a tempo deck to run her. The entire idea behind Tempo decks is to keep our opponent off of their plays, thus playing counter-spells correlates directly with this ideal.
I'm not saying that the Burn-Swiftspear-Cruise trifecta isn't a solid shell, but it's definitely not a tempo deck anymore.
My question I pose to you is this: Why not just play Burn splashing blue for Treasure Cruise? Or play Tribal Zoo? Are you just playing an inferior deck? A rule of thumb when it comes to deck selection is to never play a worse something else.
I was thinking along the same line when I read this post. The deck described is really on the aggro end of Jeskai Delver. While I don't think it's a bad deck by any means, I wouldn't place it in the tempo category. Then again no one said Jeskai Delver has to be tempo. I just think tempo is what most Jeskai Delver players prefer to play. If it's working for you and your winning, keep on keepin' on. Noone can argue with results.
It doesn't suite my personal playstyle but if I did start with that shell I would definitely jam several Boros Charms(probablly 4) to protect my early threats and deal 4 damage. Possibly an Electrolyze and a few Deflecting Palms and you would have yourself a rogue UWR Delver Aggro/Burn deck. I think it would be a pretty cool build. Again, it doesn't fit my playstyle, but if you prefer aggro/burn it would definitely be a powerful build. It sounds like you have tested a good amount to get your shell perfected so keep us posted on how your results go and what your final 75 looks like. I was actually wondering if anyone would go with this type of build because I was interested to see how it did. Thanks for posting.
I was just wondering, since we are generally splashing for Naya colors, isn't there a way to fit Wild Nacatl in this archetype? Hehe, I know it sounds crazy, but just for the sake of brewing, I was considering this more of a beatdown core:
It most probably is a dead end, but it might be worth the try, right? Who knows, it might takes us somewhere interesting...
It's definitely worth a try! Sometimes the oddest ideas end up working in real game play. And sometimes they end up leading you a different, but good direction. Give it a try! And let us know how it goes!
Ascendancy storm is a bear of a matchup for this deck and it is EVERYWHERE!!!! until the inevitable banning occurs that deck will keep this one way down
Great point! You are absolutely right that this deck is BOOMING. Fortunately there are some great sideboard options against the deck, and we have the ability to have up to 4 mana on turn 2; so we can often play some hate for it. Having said this, however, you are 100% correct that we do have to devote more sideboard space to this deck and see if there is a way we can win game-one against it. I run a "combo" version, so my game one is pretty much a race; but I take this into account when testing (basically choosing the fastest version I have given the existence of this deck and the popularity of both Burn, Twin, and Affinity now). I could see how the "Silver Bullet" versions may want to begin running an additional Path to Exile and or Beast Within to ensure they have enough removal for all of the early mana dorks.
That's what makes Modern great though! It's constantly shifting and changing, and even decks like green devotion (who have a set idea) have to make sure their list is optimized for the meta.
I do not know the metagame that will be in the tournament. What would you put into the place that I have on the SB?
This is a really good example on the type of deck to bring to a relatively unknown meta. You have some "general answers" (Path to Exile, Beast Within) but still maintain the focus of the deck. In terms of the board, other good options include Creeping Corrosion (for Affinity) and Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Mill, Discard/Rack decks, and many others). But you have a very deep board (which you can fortunately do with Chord of Calling) so you look to be in darn good shape. Neat list! I'll keep reading to see how it did!
So I took an extremely close version of purklefuff's take on the deck to FNM this week (see below)
Firstly, full disclosure, I went 0-2-2 (That's right, 2 draws) and played against.
W/G Pod, Populate brew. (used voices, brimaz, wayfaring temple, pod, etc) (Draw, 1-1-1 went to time as was one turn away from the win)
U/R Delver (Draw 1-1-1, same as above.)
Merfolk (loss 1-2, close game, was always on the back foot pathing things left, right and centre)
Elves (Loss 1-2)
It's the first time I played purkle's version and it's very different from the previous version I was trying. it really punishes poor decision making on your Utopia Sprawl colour choices, and it's also easy to misplay without thinking you are at the time.
I definitely gained a lot of insight to match ups (as it was the first time playing each of those decks)
purklefluff, do you feel the lack of an offensive 2 drop to chord? I was s at there in several rounds wishing for something better to stick than an elf or a bird or 'skite..?
Elesh norn was just amazing when I could land her, though in two games I was one mana shy of the horn-for-win play (she is So. Good.)
Polukranos is also a nice one, I can see how an extra courser would possibly be better in main, but Polukranos does 'great' work against creature heavy strategies...
Never got to bonfire when I needed it, but I can see how it would be nuts off the top.
Witness and path is great for re-usability, but felt bad ramping when behind in board state...
I'd say I did the deck a little bit of a disservice tonight, but I also do like the versatility this deck has.
Final thought. If you are running a more creature heavy version with chord in… Ulvenwald tracker is stone-cold-nuts. (especially with a Polukranos on board, it actually gets silly)
going to do some more testing in another two weeks time!
Edit : having slept on it I think I can put my finger on what I missed the most, and that was consistent pressure and consistent devotion, this version doesn't get either as quickly, though i need to test much more of course. (And naturally you are trading versatility for explosion so it's not a huge surprise, but interesting)
I'm sorry to hear the tournament didn't go that well, but I'm sure you'll do better next time, once you have familiarized with the deck. I was so happy to read you found Ulvenwald Tracker awesome! It truly has been a revelation to me, and I am currently running one MB.
For my part, I've done some testing this weekend, beating 4-0 WUR Midrange, 3-0 Tron, 3-0 Bant, 3-1 Merfolks, 2-1 Pod, and 1-2 Scapeshift with the following list.
The ramp core is the one described at the Primal Command Primer, and I think it's the best one yet. The singletons Lotus Cobra and BTE are just genius! Actually, I was really impressed with the Cobra. Sure enough, it dies to Bolts and all just as easily as the Elves and Birds, but it doesn't really matter to me. In my testing, it survived for as long as two turns, and with the 7 fetches MB, and help of Courser of Kruphix, it just went nuts, providing with plenty of mana to cast multiple Titans in one turn, for example. I'm really loving it, and might consider replacing the BTE for the second Lotus Cobra, though as I said before, this ramp core feels really strong as it is.
The rest of the deck is splashing white for Knight of the Reliquary, Elesh Norn, and Path to Exile. I feel less devoted to green this way, but it these additions do add another dimension to the deck that it lacked otherwise. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is just too good once you test her out! Ulvenwald Tracker and Polukranos, World Eater are doing great stuff together, they really team up well against other creature based decks.
What I want to keep on experimenting with is the SB. I felt that land denial against WUR, Tron, Jund and Scapeshift were excellent, so I might add Stone Rain to the mix, as it was once suggested in this thread a few pages before. I might take out one Arena and one Reclamation Sage to fit in 2 Stone Rains. I will let you know how this works, but I think I might be a good choice. And it might take our opponent off guard, attacking their mana bases instead of creatures! Blood Moon didn't looked good against Pod, for instance, with all their mana dorks, and since I'm not playing Bonefire of the Damned, I would prefer playing Stone Rains over Blood Moons
I really like this list for the Command/Chord version.
I actually didn't think much of Lotus Cobra at first, but you make a GREAT point. Both Cobra and Courser reward you for fetch lands (as often does Knight of the Reliquary) so it does create great synergy without it being necessary for any of the cards to be good by themselves. That is really interesting and seems really strong.
I am going to have to try out Elesh Norn at some point She seems like a perfect fit for the Elf version as well; and everyone the plays it seems to love it (although I would hope that any time you resolve a 7-CMC spell you should be pretty happy with the outcome!)
Thank you both to you and Hypaspist for posting results and explanations like this. It helps us all see where certain cards are great and where they are not so great. Obviously it's gonna be tough any time you pick up a deck like this; so I'm sure Hypaspist has seen much better results since; but in all honesty losses will almost always tell us more and tech us more than wins; so posts where the deck doesn't perform so well are HUGE for threads such as this.
You are absolutely 100% right that Burn and U-Burn are now HUGE things. We've been testing against a version with 4-of's of Monastary Swiftspear, Goblin Guide, and the red Eidolon and it is definately a tier-1 deck...we also built a version splashing U for Treasure Cruise (as it's worth the splash!)
In terms of my testing against Burn thus far; it actually depends heavily on how the burn player plays the deeck. They have to be careful not to just keep going straight to the face as if you give the deck three-four turns to build the board up without disrupting it; it will "go off" most of the time. They also can't spend too much of their spells on killing off every little elf I put down (as it just slows them down). If they kill off early Arbor Elves, Heritage Druids the second they drop (even if they can tap and "trigger" once) and put down a few creatures; they will have a really good chance against me. A card that is great against my deck in burn is Searing Blaze.
Post-board, however, it gets pretty tough for burn. I play 3x Leyline of Sanctity, 2x Mark of Asylum, and currently run a 2-of Essence Warden in the board (mainly due to the huge presence of burn, UR Delver decks, and Twin decks...) I've found that these changes tend to push me well ahead. I don't always put in both Mark of Asylum (if the burn deck seems more of a "too your face" deck; but I'm keeping them in the baord for decks that run Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods (like G/R Tron, some UR builds, UWR control, some Twin builds, etc.)
I would say that burn is slightly favored in game one; but that's kinda the benefit of plying burn. If you're not favored in Game One with a majority of matches with a burn deck, you got problems I was actually a little surprised as to how well the deck held up to Burn in game one (as I figured that basically Burn and Twin would be my two toughest match-ups). Granted, I have only tested a total of 24 "game one's" against burn thus far (and even fewer with the Bell-Ringer in the deck which may change things slightly but probably not noteceably).
And you are absolutely right to build that deck. I honestly believe the Mono Red Burn and U-Splash Burn are both "Tier 1" at this point. With the right board; they can win 2 out of three games against nearly every top-tier deck. Obviously, they (as all focused fast decks do) do have match ups that are extremely difficult for them (Jeskai with 3-4 Helixes, Soul Sisters, etc.)...but even then if game one goes their way, they only have to win 1 out of 2 post-board. And with Treasure Cruise, burn can have a lot more late-game play (especially those playing fetches and Shard Volleys...we even saw one running two of Tormenting Voice to take advantage of Treasure Cruise (although that probably was taking it a little too far).
With the addition of Monestary Swiftspear, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and now Cruise; Burn has become FAR more resilient than it used to be. It's a huge portion of the meta (especially online) and is only going to grow.
The speed of the deck and the amount of card draw (as I can keep throwing things at them that they have to choose to remove or not) gives me a chance in game one...and I've devoted half of my board to it (although of course some of the cards like Essence Warden, Leyline, and even Mark of Asylum do work against other match-ups). Even the UR Delver decks have a large Burn aspect to them. You are 100% right it is something that we need to be ready for. Fortunately, my deck (thus far in testing) has been able to maintain a 60%+ winning record against burn decks thus far (in "2 out of 3" matches where game one is pre-board and 2 and 3 are post-board). I'll test it much more before I post my overall teesting results; and I will make sure to test the U version specifically more. Great points!!!
Another card I've been thinking about trying in the board is Ethereal Haze. It buys me a turn against both Twin and Jeskai Ascendancy; which is all a combo deck can ask for. I'll let you know if the card works in enough match ups to make it in the board.
Great conversations guys! It's always fun when meta's shift thanks to new cards. Gives us brewers more to think about We green mages have the most trouble, though, as we don't have a lot of the instant-speed cards to deal with everything that can change (which leads to more "fundamental" changes in decks). But that's half the fun! Great points and great ideas!
In terms of 2-drops, I'm partial to both Elvish Visionary and even more so to Coiling Oracle. Oracle is unreal as it draws a card and ramps (if it's a land). Being able to play an additional land can be huge. Of course, if you're not already playing blue or elves (as you can take advantage of Cavern of Souls), the splashing may not be worth it. I can't imagine there is a better 2-drop than Strangleroot (Haste + Undying is CRAZY in a devotion deck) for the Stompy versions of this deck (I've built my own "Stompy" version and Strangleroot seems to be one of the All-stars)...and for the "Silver Bullet" version you end up with many more choices...I would think Scavenging Ooze would be good for you (as it is good graveyard hate and good hate for Treasure Cruise decks)...but there are a TON of 2-drops out there.
The card I think could be AMAZING in the Chord versions would be Wall of Roots. It has such powerful synergy with the deck. It is a great early blocker, can generate mana the turn it comes into play, and acts as 2-mana for a Chord. If I ran a Chord/Silver Bullet version of the deck; I would at least test Wall of Roots. I think actually the Purklefluff may have done this in the past; so he would be a good source of info on this front. Pedros did too I believe. He would know better as well. I'll look up some cards I've written down in the past and see if I can't think of something more useful for the Chord versions of the deck.
I think they go something like this:
Elf Combo
Coiling Oracle
Elvish Visionary
Stompy
Strangleroot Geist
Chord/Silver Bullet
Wall of Roots
Scavenging Ooze
Lotus Cobra
Genesis Wave Traditional
Burning-Tree Emissary
Elvish Visionary
Lotus Cobra
** I'll edit this post as I find more options. **
That is AWESOME!!! I can't wait to hear what you find. It sounds super promising already.
This discussion is AWESOME! I did have a quick set of questions for many of the non-wave, non-combo deck builders/pilots (i.e. the Stompy, Primal Command, and/or Silver Buillet or Chord versions). It's really interesting to see all of the ideas such as Polukranos, Primal Command, Sweepers, Enchantment Killers, etc.; but my questions are:
(A) Are you finding it easy to cast these spells in time to have an effect on the quicker combo decks?
(B) How many copies are you playing to actually draw into them when you need them?
(C) Have you found introducing more interactive spells (often times instants) into the main board has led to worsening the "devotion" aspect of the deck?
(D) Where is (if there is a "range" or anything) the "line" for how many non-permanent spells you can play and still maintain consistent devotion (i.e. enough devotion to warrant the use of Nykthos)?
I'm seeing people (and talking to people) saying a lot of things such as "....I have 3 Chords, so I can Chord for an Eidolon or a Magus..." or "...I've just added 4 Paths main, a few X's, and a bunch more enchantment destruction in the board..." or "...I just run Blood Moon main board now..." ...my concern comes from the fact that "Chording" for Eidolon or Magus takes 6-mana/creatures. The Primal Command/Witness lock costs more. Blood Moon "Shuts off" Nykthos. With full sets of disruptive cards; how do you build devotion? Basically, is there a point where you become better off playing a non-devotion deck (like Jund, Pod, etc.) if you're goal is to be disruptive? Don't get me wrong. I think disruption is a great way to go in the meta...and I think Chord is one of the coolest ideas there is in Devotion...I just want to continue the conversation to see if/how Devotion can be a viable "disruptive" deck. I'd love to see some of your lists! Does it hold it's own compared to other disruptive decks? At what point are you better off just running Jund or Pod? I DON'T want people to move away from Devotion. Please don't get me wrong. This is literally just continuing the conversation (as it is a spectacular one) as how devotion can function in the current meta in different ways.
I play combo/wave; so for me, the "answer" for me was to "speed up" and make changes to the the side board. The changes do reduce the "favored" status you have against midrange builds (although I've still found the match-ups to be in my favor although not a "blowout" like it used to be); but it does give me the ability to play as quickly as other decks... I'm still not even close to 100% sure/confident of my list, my board, and exactly how I'm going to attack the current meta. I haven't tested nearly as much or tuned as much as my last list. The "Core" is the same (Elves, Garruk, Wave); however the speed and win-cons are far different (lower average CMC, more same-turn untapping, loss of Archdruid, much more focus on instant-speed abilities such as Heritage Druid, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Mirror Entity, etc.) Basically, my testing kind of "pushed" me in this direction due to the Meta shifts....and now I'm working on tuning this "Elf Combo" list. But that is (in my opinion) the best way to build the Elf Combo decks in the current meta. I just want to know if there has been a lot of actual testing of the new ideas being discussed with the other versions of Green Devotion?
It's one thing to point out that your deck has answers for certain decks/cards. It's entirely another to test the deck and see how often you (a) actually have that answer when you need it and (b) have the mana to cast it the moment you need to. My largest general concern is that in order to play a "reactive" game, you have to hold up mana...which is somewhat counter to what Devotion (as a mechanic) wants to do. Are there more "permanent-based" ways to be reactive? Theory is absolutely needed and important, and there are always answers to problems...but seeing how the answers play and if they are actually viable can only be found through testing.
I think a good part of my questions literally comes from my idea of how Devotion runs and how I prefer to play it (i.e. my playstyle)...so my concerns may be less of an issue than I assume due to my lack of testing such versions. I see Devotion as more of an "overwhelm" mechanic that is built on board state (as it literally counts your board); and playing a "reactive" game is somewhat counter to the mechanic. Seeing all of the amazing lists and results from many of the great brewer on here, however; has already proved that Devotion can be just as strong in a more "reactive" and "interactive" build. It will be really interesting to see how these builds change to meet the current Meta shifts.
One important thing I also tend to forget as well is that no deck is favored against all decks/archetypes in a format. Sometimes I will get "too far down the rabit hole" trying to build main board that has an answer to every top-tier deck in the format. Blue/Red Deliver is amazing (especially now with Cruise); but there are some decks it has little to no chance against in game one. With the Meta (especially online) being so heavy in UR Delver and Burn; we're gonna see a lot of Soul Sisters going 3-1 and 4-0 The trick is not to find a deck with no bad match-ups. The trick is to know what your bad match-ups are and ensure your sideboard can put you in a winning position in games two and three.
Having said all of this, the only thing that really speaks is results. And without any, at this point I/we are just "theorizing" and discussing But we are darn good at it! I've never enjoyed conversation about a deck/archetype more. We'll make it work; and discussions like this help more and more. It will take us some time, but the more ideas we test, the more cards we try out, the more Meta's we work in, etc. the better chance we have in developing great Green Devotion lists that can be Top Tier decks. I'm SOOO interested to see the Black versions you guys are creating and how the "Chord" or "Silver Bullet" versions are changing to combat the current Modern Meta shifts. Keep up the awesome discussion!
I have been testing heavily against some of the "new meta" as well. You guys are absolutely right that the G-Wave versions of the deck absolutely destroyed Midrange and Fair decks (Pod, Junk, Jund, Delver, Tron, etc.) and these are the exact decks that are seeing less and less play...
I personally "combated" this by tuning my deck to become a much faster "combo" version. It's not quite as resilient as my Temur Version, but it is super fast.
I feel like current Modern with Ascendancy, Twin, U/R Delver with Cruise, etc. you either have to be an extremely fast/combo deck (i.e. turn 3 possibility with relative consistency by turn 4&5) like Twin, Ascendancy, Burn, Amulet, or even Storm; or have a deck full of value cards that can be disruptive (like Junk, Jund, UR Delver, and Jeskia Geist/Delver). I do think that Digg Through Time and Treasure Cruise have made viable Grixis and Esper decks as well; but of the "old Meta" many decks were hurt by some of the new cards. The decks that used to kind of "go over the top" like Tron, Green Devotion (unfortunately), some Pod builds, many Junk variants, and some of lesser-seen Midrangy decks have fallen by the wayside a little. This probably won't end up as drastic as it is now (as many people have picked up Ascendancy, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Through Time out of the excitement of them being new (and as often happens the community overacts)
You guys are right though. I can't disregard things just because they don't look good for me/us. I test against not only the current meta, but also I tend to put more weight on what seems to be "coming up"; so I've been testing against Ascendancy, Burn, and Twin (with Dig Through Time), and UR Delver (with Treasure Cruise) for a couple weeks now. I have NO WHERE NEAR enough testing under my belt; but it definitely instantly showed me that I had to find a way to utilize Devotion (and in my case Elves since that's what I've tested the most) in a much faster way (as it is REALLY difficult to play a mid-range version when 50% of the meta is trying to combo off on turn 3-4 and 30% of the meta has been built to dismantle their opponents board and/or hand (when we run a deck that is very board-centric).
Anywho, I'm kinda rambling; but this is the list I'm currently trying:
4 Arbor Elf
3 Heritage Druid
4 Coiling Oracle
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Mirror Entity
2 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Village Bell-Ringer
Enchantments (10)
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Abunant Growth
2 Bear Umbra
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Sorcery/Instants (4)
4 Genesis Wave
Lands (19)
1 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
7 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Choke
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Flex Spots
Not entirely sure about the Village Bell Ringer (it is the newest of the additions so it's only been tested for about 30 games....Thus far, however, it's actually been really cool (lets me re-tap all my elves, steal with Gilt-Leaf, and lets me attack post-wave with non-summoning-sick elves I tapped earlier in the turn).
I've also been fiddling around with a 1-of Drift of Phantasms (as it can Transmute for Genesis Wave, Mirror Entity, and many sideboard cards); but even transmuting seems a little slow despite the crazy amounts of quick mana we generate)...I also have tried Joraga Treespeaker, splashing red, and numerous sideboard options...but testing thus far has proven that the deck is definitely fast enough for the current meta (and is actually a little more consistent than my other builds). You do give up a little resiliency for Midrange match-ups; but I've found that I'm still favored. I do want to find a better answer for flyers; so that will be a focus on my testing tomorrow.
Anywho, can't wait to hear more discussion on the "new Meta" and I'll post my testing results on here this week. I'm also purchasing the remainder of this deck on MTGO and will try out a few dailies sometime soon. Have always been a paper player; so it should be fun!
Excited to hear about some of the new builds you guys are coming up with! Great discussion!
I like this deck a lot. I've never really tried the primal lock my elf builds; but I LOVE Eternal witness. One of the most powerful things you can do in a Genesis wave deck is to "string" waves (Garruk off the first wave untaps a nykthos and/or you get a nykthos off the wave so you can re-trigger) and Eternal Witness makes sure that if you hit a wave off your first wave you can just grab it from the yard!
This looks like a really solid elf build. If you add a color, I'd go red (adds Kessig which can turn any elf into a threat, can add haste enablers like Sarkhan Vol, and opens up the sideboard.) but this is a REALLY solid elf list. I can't imagine any fair decks having a chance :). Great brew!
I'm farting around with glittering wish, 1-of Witness, and of course sideboard options! Post my results this weekend.
In all seriousness though, I truly think there may be a competitive Eidolon list out there. Seeing my list did remind me how much I loved Aspect of the Hydra too It's fun to attack with a 1/1, have them let it go through, and then play a 1-mana "you're creature gets +10/+10! So many great green devotion cards. Makes for both a great pool of cards to choose from; but also makes brewing tough as there are so many options!
At the time, I was in LOVE with the whole "Primalcrux + Xenagod" combo where you'd hit both (via Wave or Tooth and Nail) and have like a 14/14 that would have haste and "double" to 28/28 Trample. Was a fun win-con. Summoner's Pact helped smooth it out a bit. That being said, I'm sure there are better Eidolon lists out there (including yours).
I'd love to see your Eidolon list Damocles69! Mine was made quite some time ago (a few sets ago) and I'm sure there are other great cards that can fill in some slots. so I'm sure there is a better list out there; and I would love to see how you've taken advantage of it and how it performs. Thanks for posting this. It's an interesting discussion. Can't wait to see your list!
This is a GREAT card. I did the same thing at one point because I tend to run both Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growths in 4-of's (and Abundant Growth and Nylea's Presence draw 2-cards with Eidolon out as well as the sideboard cards you discussed. I haven't looked at the list in a while; and I have no doubt you could build a stronger one than I did. We've all learned so much on the thread that I bet there is a great Eidolon list out there. I'd love to see yours. I didn't test it enough... I remember feeling the deck ended up feeling a little slow; but it was still really good. It definately made a later-game top deck Utopia Sprawl or Abundant Growth something you wanted to see! And with Courser it is just an outrageous amount of card advantage. I have no doubt a competitive list could be built with Eidolon in it. At the time I build it, I was "all in" in on quick Genesis Wave decks; and did not give it the credit it is due. It's a GREAT idea though. I would love to see your list and hear more about it! Could be a stand out list!
I love the list! I think the most powerful thing you can do in Green is draw cards; and having a streamlined list that simply overwhelms the opponent wins a lot of games.
Genesis Wave is one of the most powerful Modern-legal green spell printed. I know a lot of lists went away from it, and with good reason. One thing you learn pretty quickly playing Genesis Wave is that the deck has to be built "around" the wave (i.e. you want to make the most of it). It forces you to play permanent-heavy decks which can be extremely difficult. In this case, however, you have other great cards (Prime Time of course basically being the most effective green creature ever) to win even if you don't hit a wave.
The more I look at it, the more I think that this list is a GREAT Genesis Wave list. It's straight forward, and that's great. It builds the board quickly, and nearly all of the cards will "hit" off of a wave for 3-4 except the two "win-cons" (which will hit off of the larger waves or simply get hard-cast for the win) so in those situations where you need to cast a "small wave" to set up a win the next turn you can do it.
My history playing Wave Devotion decks has led me to the opinion that the best Wave decks simply overwhelm the opponent; and this deck does just that. The only "suggestion" I have is to try to throw in one Sarkhan Vol (just to give you haste if you cast a HUGE wave to ensure you win the same turn); but other than that, I can't see anything else I would change. I can't wait to hear how this does. This is a great Wave list. Let us know how it plays against things. Looks like it's going to destroy "fair" decks!
I saw that! I try to read, comment/answer things in order. That's why I said, "...I'll keep reading to see how it did!" I just wanted to point out some of the great things you did for an unknown meta. Often times, we hone our decks to the overall "Modern Meta" based on sites such as MTG Top 8, MTG Pulse, and even the PT results; but going to tourneys, playing in Dailies, or even local FNM's often can be far different...so I was applauding the more generalized answers you had used to tackle an unknown meta. I did see the results as well. So much good info there. Thanks for taking the time to post all of that! Super helpful for the rest of us.
I was thinking along the same line when I read this post. The deck described is really on the aggro end of Jeskai Delver. While I don't think it's a bad deck by any means, I wouldn't place it in the tempo category. Then again no one said Jeskai Delver has to be tempo. I just think tempo is what most Jeskai Delver players prefer to play. If it's working for you and your winning, keep on keepin' on. Noone can argue with results.
It doesn't suite my personal playstyle but if I did start with that shell I would definitely jam several Boros Charms(probablly 4) to protect my early threats and deal 4 damage. Possibly an Electrolyze and a few Deflecting Palms and you would have yourself a rogue UWR Delver Aggro/Burn deck. I think it would be a pretty cool build. Again, it doesn't fit my playstyle, but if you prefer aggro/burn it would definitely be a powerful build. It sounds like you have tested a good amount to get your shell perfected so keep us posted on how your results go and what your final 75 looks like. I was actually wondering if anyone would go with this type of build because I was interested to see how it did. Thanks for posting.
It's definitely worth a try! Sometimes the oddest ideas end up working in real game play. And sometimes they end up leading you a different, but good direction. Give it a try! And let us know how it goes!
Great point! You are absolutely right that this deck is BOOMING. Fortunately there are some great sideboard options against the deck, and we have the ability to have up to 4 mana on turn 2; so we can often play some hate for it. Having said this, however, you are 100% correct that we do have to devote more sideboard space to this deck and see if there is a way we can win game-one against it. I run a "combo" version, so my game one is pretty much a race; but I take this into account when testing (basically choosing the fastest version I have given the existence of this deck and the popularity of both Burn, Twin, and Affinity now). I could see how the "Silver Bullet" versions may want to begin running an additional Path to Exile and or Beast Within to ensure they have enough removal for all of the early mana dorks.
That's what makes Modern great though! It's constantly shifting and changing, and even decks like green devotion (who have a set idea) have to make sure their list is optimized for the meta.
This is a really good example on the type of deck to bring to a relatively unknown meta. You have some "general answers" (Path to Exile, Beast Within) but still maintain the focus of the deck. In terms of the board, other good options include Creeping Corrosion (for Affinity) and Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Mill, Discard/Rack decks, and many others). But you have a very deep board (which you can fortunately do with Chord of Calling) so you look to be in darn good shape. Neat list! I'll keep reading to see how it did!
I really like this list for the Command/Chord version.
I actually didn't think much of Lotus Cobra at first, but you make a GREAT point. Both Cobra and Courser reward you for fetch lands (as often does Knight of the Reliquary) so it does create great synergy without it being necessary for any of the cards to be good by themselves. That is really interesting and seems really strong.
I am going to have to try out Elesh Norn at some point She seems like a perfect fit for the Elf version as well; and everyone the plays it seems to love it (although I would hope that any time you resolve a 7-CMC spell you should be pretty happy with the outcome!)
Thank you both to you and Hypaspist for posting results and explanations like this. It helps us all see where certain cards are great and where they are not so great. Obviously it's gonna be tough any time you pick up a deck like this; so I'm sure Hypaspist has seen much better results since; but in all honesty losses will almost always tell us more and tech us more than wins; so posts where the deck doesn't perform so well are HUGE for threads such as this.