Such great points. You nailed it on the head about the difficulties of building with Genesis Wave as well as some of the "pitfalls" of Green Devotion as a whole (many builds find themselves ramping into nothing, etc.); and why the "Silver Bullet" versions and "Genesis Wave" versions have to have slightly different "engines" and even slightly different win-cons than one another despite having some of the same "core" cards and ideas within the decks.
In terms of your history with Genesis Wave...I'm not surprised about your issues with control. Control is far and away the toughest match up for the Genesis Wave versions of devotion. It's taken me quite some time to get the main board to a place where I feel it has a viable chance against control decks in game one (between 3 Cavern of Souls; early and often card advantage, more creatures, etc.) And there are cases in game one where your only choice is to run the Wave out and hope And I couldn't agree with you more about Boseiju Who Shelters All. It just felt slow and akward when I played it. As a 1-of; I always felt like it would only work in a deck with either Knight of the Reliquary and/or Sylvan Scrying...but then your stretching just so you can play a spell the turn after you've tutored for a land! Needless to say, I haven't played Boseiju in a while either. I can see its use in a deck with far more instants and sorceries...but not just for Genesis Wave. To be entirely honest, in games two and three I generally side out all three Waves against control anyways. It's just far better against control to keep throwing permanents at them (especially with Caverns) and out-draw them...they don't know what to do when their opponent has more questions than they have answers for
You are also right that building with Wave can quickly devolve into a deck that is inconsistent. It gets so exciting to cast a wave for X=20 that many often will fill a deck with ramp, a few huge fatties and 4 waves. The only problem is they may have games where they draw Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Forest, Nykthos, Overgrowth, Utopia Sprawl, Genesis Wave, Birds of Paradise, Voyaging Satyr, and another Nykthos over the first 3 turns. Sure, they have access to a ton of mana...but if that Wave gets taken away and/or countered...they are in "top deck" mode for the remainder of the game hoping they either top deck a huge card or Wave and/or hoping their opponent does nothing. That was my biggest issue with MH's first version. It seemed like many games (especially those where it's opponent could interact) it often burned through it's entire hand and was quickly in top deck mode...of course it could win games very quickly; but the consistency (in my opinion) wasn't there. He did slowly move from this, however; and his deck became the Modern Shell of many devotion decks. I don't mean to say MJ's version was bad...on the contrary, it helped present on a popular stream many of the ideas we all use (including both Genesis Wave and the Command Lock.) It was just a huge catalyst of my realization that a Genesis Wave Green Devotion deck may perform better if it was built within a shell with huges amounts of card draw/advantage (so that the engine kept going, and going, and going
"Silver Bullet" Version
You are by no means "wrong" for playing the "Silver Bullet" version of the deck. I truly and honestly believe that the "Silver Bullet" version and the "Genesis Wave" versions are equally competitive and equally viable in the meta. The Silver Bullet deck is awesome. Both take advantage of devotion in different ways; but both are GREAT. I think they can co-exist together. There doesn't really have to be a "winner" (just as there are Little Zoo, Big Zoo, and Domain Zoo, Tempo & Tarmo Twin, Affinity and now "No Affinity", Melira and Kiki Pod, Junk and Jund (basically Rock with either red or white splash), etc....we do can play two different styles of "Green Devotion" while still having both be incredibly competitive. I think the Silver Bullet version is spectacular. The Genesis Wave version (and even more narrow, the "Elf Version" of it) just fits my play-style and preferences more. It's better for me (i.e. I win more with it) simply because it fits the way I think/play. The exact opposite would be true for many playing the Silver Bullet version.
I think it's brilliant to play a Genesis Wave or two in your board. In certain match ups (Pod, Rock, Affinity, anything "fair" etc.) it is absolutely devastating. Great call!
Removal
Your discussion was literally the single biggest reason I thought, "You know what...I can actually run removal in my deck through Domri and Polukranos main board and add a little interaction in game one..." It litearlly just so happened that I was on a big Genesis Hydra kick and that very evening I watched Reid Duke use the Hydra along with Domri Rade and Setessan Tactics to pretty much remove any creature he wanted.
I didn't feel like you were disparaging my list specifically. I apologize if I came off that way or my comment seemed too defensive. I thought your comments were perfect as I too often make somewhat "generalized" comments based on my testing with my version; and it helped me realize that I have to be really specific about how the interaction worked in my version (and also how to equate it to other versions). It actually also was a real help because it got me thinking about ways I could add removal for game one! Also, it gave me a great way to discuss something I had been wishing to discus for some time (how the Genesis Wave and/or "Elf Version" plays very differently from the "Silver Bullet or "Primal Command/Chord" version and the reasons why the must play differently). And you are a thousand percent right that without either interaction, card advantage, or both; green Devotion decks simply don't have long-term staying power/resiliency.
It's tough to read inflection on-line and I honestly don't think anything you said sounded anything but constructive!
To answer your more deck-specific questions:
Nissa Revane
I'm not sold 100% on Nissa Revane. I just wanted lifegain and she seemed like the best source (as she will on average trigger for 6-8 life and I can do it each turn. Makes it very difficult for a lot of decks. I have not tested her much yet, and she may not be worth it. You are absolutely right that I may be better off with just another Domri Rade or simply running a Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, or some such lifelink powerhouse.
Courser of Kruphix
I wanted to separate my discussion about Courser of Kruphix because this is the single most important choice that I am torn apart about and literally go back and forth daily...the choice between Elvish Archdruid and Courser of Kruphix. Courser is simply AMAZING. As you said, he provides card advantage, life gain...and the best thing is that his interactions with BOTH Domri Rade and Coiling Oracle are astounding. Not to mention the life-gain you get off of a Genesis Wave.
I constantly go back and fourth with whether I should play Courser or Elvish Archdruid. I even bought three foil Coursers a long time ago (when I finished foiling the deck out). If I did put Courser in Archdruid's place, however, I think I may then need to switch Elvish Visionary for something like Wall of Roots or Voyaging Satyr (as I lose a lot of early and voluminous mana without Archdruid and I gain a good amount of card advantage with Courser). At that point, however, I'd have to replace Ezuri as well....but the deck could still be powerful simply because Courser is so amazing. I will pay attention tonight to see if I ever wish an Archdruid was a Courser.
I guess my biggest concerns are:
a. How the change would effect the speed and sequencing of the deck. The deck works in a very specific way (each turn uses mana very efficiently); so even a small change like moving the card advantage to 3 and the ramp to 2 can change things...so these changes could slow the deck down to a point where it is simply not as viable/competitive. Courser does tend to play a little slower than most in my deck (he works better over multiple turns).
b. With haste, (from Sarkhan or now Temur Ascendancy) Archdruid becomes crazy good.
c. Losing the power of Cavern of Souls which is an EXTREMELY powerful card against control builds
Mana Fixing and Blue Source
I haven't had any really problems with only having only 1 of each Stomping Ground and/or Breeding pool because of the full sets of Abundant Growth and Utopia Sprawl within the deck. I often set Utopia Sprawl to "red" (unless I have a Coiling Oracle in my opening hand and no Cavern, Misty, or Breeding Pool and generally always have the blue for Coiling Oracle because Cavern can be used as well. Abundant Growth helps fix quite a bit as well because it can make the same land tap for both red and blue (as well as green of course). Having said that, I may need to add a second Stomping Ground and/or Breeding Pool to the deck; as I really could get away with 6 Basic Forests and still be ok on that front and it can only help fix even more. Just because fixing is rarely a problem doesn't mean it shouldn't be better if it can be. I'm of course adding Wooded Foothills to the deck (even if it's just 2 Misty Rainforests and 2 Wooded Foothills) because...it's awesome they're in Modern!
And I'm just like you....I LOVE the conversations about the builds, the archetype, etc. It can only make all of our decks better...And it's just nice to talk to fellow green mages and hear how well some of our little "green community" performs in their local metas!
It's so great to see that everyone has an option of a list to choose from that fits their play-style and preferences. Just another reason this Primer is great. Thanks to Gnuhouse and Pedros for creating this thread and keeping it alive early to become what it has become now. A lot of people have found a green devotion list that they prefer just from finding this...and that's big for the archetype.
Do you think that the Steppe Lynx plan is more viable now with better fetchlands?
Also, I refuse to give in to your Jeskainess! WUR FTW (or at least call it Patriot)!
That is a great point! With the possibility of 12 "on color" fetch lands Steppe Lynx is a great choice for the aggro style build of this deck. I could just simply replace my Grim Lavamancers, Batterskull, and Chandra, Pyromaster and go aggro. If the meta is midrange/control heavy, the aggro build could be the best choice.
Very cool that you will be playing the build regularly now. I can't wait to hear that you joined the Pro Tour!
I get confused whether is WUR, UWR, RWU, etc so I have just given in and called it Jeskai Delver. To each their own.
Also I was really hoping the new Legendary Jeskai creature would fit in our deck, but she is just too high on the curve. I can't wait to see the Jeskai Charm though!
Since i was brutally beaten by a Mono-G-Devotion list, i decided to keep an eye on this deck and i saw your list. And I have to say:
Your list is awesome! It seems very strong and with a huge amount of fun! Great, i think i will start playing Mono-G-Devotion as well based on your list. I am very exited to see how it works.
I think that i will change 4x Abundant Growth for 2x Eternal Witness and 2x Primal Command, because i like the combination and I think Abundant Growth is not necessary, i think, or am I totally wrong?
Temur Ascendany seems great, but what do you want to cut for it?
Greetings,
PHF
Thank you for the kind words PHF! It means a lot to me that your starting your deck with my shell. I'm excited to see your deck and its performance. I am super excited about the deck's evolution. Some of the newer cards have really pushed it to an even better place I believe (more interaction, card advantage on the high end, etc.) I'm excited to hear how your take on devotion performs. Its time for you to be the one doing the brutal beating
I am testing a BUNCH today (gonna play from now till midnight) and I will make sure to focus on Abundant Growth and if it was switched out). I am a big fan of Abundant Growth just because it "smooths out" the deck. It digs for land (as we only run 20), adds on devotion that is very difficult to remove, replaces itself, and off of a Genesis spell (Hydra or Wave) it at worst draws a card (its nice to refill you hand on a small Wave). The fixing can be important too (especially now that I'm thinking of playing Temur Ascendancy...although the majority of the time it will ETB from a Genesis spell); but if you played Sarkhan Vol it becomes less of a worry (as the blue for Oracle can come from a Cavern of Souls).
To be honest; the only way to know is to try! I would be super interested to hear how it goes! I would maybe drop the Nissa and/or the third Genesis Hydra and run 3 Witnesses (as you've increased the curve quite a bit and added another win-com...so this may just smooth it out a bit. I haven't tested it; so I could be wrong, but I would probably start there and and add back if you're getting too many Witness's before you need them.
The good news is that Eternal Witness is a spectacular card in this build btw...I went back and forth between Witness and Elvish Archdruid for months. She 'a great because off of a Wave often times another Wave, a Primal Command, or a Genesis Hydra will go to the graveyard; and she will trigger to put it right back in your hand to start the loop; string Waves, etc. Waving for 6+ traditionally will net you a Garruk, a Nykthos, and/or some lands; so often times the Primal Lock can be cast right after a Wave for a quasi-same turn "win". Its one interaction I don't get to see often; but I enjoy it.
I won't take up too much of your time; but if you play Eternal Witness; you may want to run 1-2 more fetches as well ( and now you can run Wooded Foothills too!). This deck moves fast; and an early Eternal Witness would suck without a minimum of a land to grab. Also; this will help relieve some of the fixing / land digging advantages of Abundant Growth!
I'm excited to see your list and its performance! It may start with my shell; but it's 100% your deck. Great ideas!
In 1 month I will own WUR Delver in paper! Now that the Onslaught fetchlands are being reprinted, I can finally build a reasonable manabase!
This is the exact reason why I think this reprint is GREAT for magic. I own foils and regular copies of each of the onslaught fetches, so I took a hit, but that is a hit I am willing to take 100 times over so others can get into the format and play the decks they want to play. I love it!
On another note, now I can put my Flooded Strands into my favorite deck- my Modern Jeskai (Yes, I'm using it now) Delver Deck.
The Raise the Alarms just didn't offer enough power or utility. Telling Time is still being tested and has been mostly positive.
I have been testing Steel of the Godhead for a couple of weeks and it was great when it hit on a Geist or made my Snapcaster unblockable for the last three damage, but at three drop it seemed a little steep in some matchups. It may be a great sideboard card. With that said, I never tested it with Judge's Familiar which makes a huge difference. When testing I actually tried to think of other targets I could add to the deck to utilize both white and blue and never came up with one. I can't believe I overlooked the little bird. I don't think I have room in my current build for this, but I definitely like the Godhead Delver list in a heavy burn/aggro meta. It also has enough permission to deal with combo. Also- go ahead and change your misty rainforest to a flooded strand!
I'm excited for all of you guys running Naya colors (as you got both of your fetches!). I for sure will be putting in Wooded Foothills in mine too! This has been such a great night for spoilers...now all we need is for some amazing sideboard card to be spoiled!
I quite like the new fetches. I think it will allow for Esper and Grixis to become part of the meta and in terms of this deck; there was a fetch that works for nearly everyone whose posted a deck! Granted, it won't make the biggest difference in the world (aka no difference); but it's still a positive difference even if on the smallest degree.
To provide my two cents on your question...I do think it changes the mana base for most decks on here (especially those splashing white) simply because they match the colors of the deck; but to be honest we won't notice a change because every shockland we fetch is a Forest. Hell, some people may play the off-color one's just to throw off the opponent for a turn or two
Blood Moon is not typically an issue for most of the decks on here (outside of the fact that it turns off Nykthos). A good amount of the lists on here run Blood Moon themselves! Most of the decks will generally have at least one and most likely 2 Basic Forests out by the time it's played and a lot of us splash red anyways...of course, it knocks Utopia Sprawl off of shock lands (if you were forced to enchant a non-basic or just made a bad play). In my build and a few others, we run Abundant Growth's as well; which even after a Blood Moon is cast allows us to tap the "Mountain" for Green (or any color for that matter)...but that's really more of a "perk" than a necessity for a devotion deck. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Abundant Growth in devotion. Michael Jacobs used to say they were "way better" than Elvish Visionary...I don't know if I'd go that far; but they have been amazing in terms of increasing devotion while fixing mana and drawing a card. Not many cards can do all of that at once.
Having said all of this, for Green Devotion I think fetches are going to be more of a "cosmetic" benefit than anything else. But that's still good news! I'd love to hear of any deck that got more than just a aesthetic bonus from the new fetches. Hopefully this spoiler season will provide a few more cards for we green mages to mull over.
A card you may want to think about trying out is Eidolon of Blossoms. You run soooo many enchantments that this could lead to HUGE amounts of card draw for you. I haven't tested your version, so I can't say with certainty what to remove; but maybe removing one Voyaging Satyr and one Overgrowth to start (and running two Eidolons) may be enough. I'd probably run three; but I'm also a nut about card draw. You just have so much mana that most likely you will be able to cast whatever you draw the second you draw it :cool::cool: I have a couple extra copies if you want me to send them your way...I know that's weird, but I'd rather you have em than me sit em in a box.
Avenger of Zendikar off of a Wave is a really neat idea that I haven't seen a ton of...I like it! It is such a neat card because of the way Wave works. You end up getting so many lands that not only would he put more tokens into play; but you ALSO get all of those landfall triggers (as they all enter the battlefield at the same time)! Find a way to give em haste and it's game over on the same turn Great idea.
I think the deck looks like it has a little room to grow in terms of card-draw/consistency; but the core idea is certainly there. It's definitely fast and explosive!!
So Temur Ascendancy is 100% going in in my deck for SURE. Everyone gets haste off for 3 (and off of both Genesis Hydra and Genesis Wave!!!!) AND I draw a card for every creature with power 4 or more! Testing this before it comes out for sure!
GOD I LOVE SPOILERS! Attached a picture below. I'll be trying it in place of Sarkhan Vol immediately. Can't steal a creature any more; but I think it's made up in value.
And I think the way it works that if you grab it with a Genesis Hydra of X=4 or greater...you get to draw another card! Fingers Crossed
I know it's been a relatively short period (however it did take me two weeks just to provide the second set of testing results after I had written them out) but I have a third "set" based on some of the most recent changes to the list that I've been trying out as well as a "Sideboard Template" for those of those wishing to play the Elf Version. I will post these this long weekend. I did want to preface it, however, with the most recent changes to the deck.
The main changes from the original version are as follows:
1. Running three Genesis Hydra over Chord of Calling. They are just amazing, especially against control which can often be our toughest match up. I don't know how else to say how well they play other than saying try them out. Obviously, the power of Genesis Hydra would be greatly reduced in other versions (Primal Command/Chord version, etc.) due to your having far more non-permanent spells and far less walkers); but in this version it is unreal. Also, with Polukranos currently in the deck along with Chameleon Colossus...I can set Cavern of Souls on "Hydra" and not feel so bad about it
2. Added a 1-of Polukranos, World Eater to the main-board in place of one Coiling Oracle and a 1-of Domri Rade in place of one Nissa, Worldwaker. I talk about this at length below, but these were done to add a small amount of game one interaction in situations where it is needed (provided one example below). I will miss a second Nissa, however with the level of card draw and digging this deck now has; I can tend to get to Nissa by turn 3 (which is typically when you want to cast her so she can be "free"). I LOVE Coiling Oracle...it's ETB trigger is nuts; so I will be focused heavily on ensuring I don't need to get a fourth one back in. I still run 16 elves; so Ezuri, Renegade Leader and Elvish Archdruid still are strong enough in the deck. Since Polukranos is now in the main, I've replaced him in the board with Silklash Spider to deal with flyers.
3. Keeping the third Cavern of Souls in the deck. It's simply put my best weapon against control decks (which are among our toughest match-ups). Having main-board "hate" aganst them not only makes game one FAR easier...it also opens up the board for more utility.
That's the sum of changes. While the deck may look a little crazy with a bunch of 1, 2, and 3-of's....it's been "boiled down" by hundreds of games of testing. Anywho, here's the deck:
1. Summoner's Pact - Basic "2nd copy of wanted creature" in the deck. Was Chord by not Pact simply due to Genesis Hydra and Mistcutter Hydra.
2. Nissa Revane - This is simply life-gain that I can keep triggering. Some of the more difficult match-ups include Burn, Scapeshift, Ad Nauesum, Storm, and Merfolk. In all of these match-ups; if you're on the play you need just one more turn. This allows us do have that turn by making it harder for them to "go off" for enough. This is the only card that may change; but I'm extremely interested in it.
3. Mistcutter Hydra - This is a great card against both control builds and tempo builds. Malleable use depending on how much the opponent has disrupted, and haste.
4. Chameleon Colossus - Now in the board. Great for control (as Cavern always works on it), great against any deck with black (Pod, Rock, Jund, etc.) and can be HUGE quick.
5. Silklash Spider - Added in what was Polukrano's space. It's just really effective flyer removal. It also works against Twin (if they make 999 Pestermites; you kill them all).
This sideboard is built because of the way the deck matches up to the meta. The deck is highly favored in many match-ups and has only a few decks that it struggles against. These decks include control builds (UWR Control, UW Control, Scapeshift builds on the control side, UR Delver) and fast combo builds (Storm, Twin, Goyro's Vengeance...) (as well as some very heavy flier builds). Match ups like Pod, Rock, Jund, Affinity, Hatebearers, Tron, Tarmo Twin, Boggles, etc. that run off of creature-based damage as their main win-con require almost no sideboard (as this deck is heavily favored against them). There are a few additional "functions" that can be difficult (unblockable in infect, boggles, and/or Merfolk) but the overall match up is not one we have difficulties.
Given that we only have to focus on a few "types" of decks and "functions" that we have to side against, the board focuses on these match-ups. I will be providing a "siding template" with the third set of testing results to show how I typically side against each match up (and why).
Removal / Interaction @Koperbox and @Pantaloons
You guys had a really great discussion! You both made some astoundingly good points. Pantaloons; your deck list is an interesting one. It's interesting to see the changes you've made as well. Where you able to test a significant amount of games with both? What were your findings? Your discussion (and watching Reid Duke's standard performance at the Invitational) made me think about the potential of getting a small amount of removal into my main deck for game one (as there is plenty for games two and three).
In terms of removal, I can only speak for the Elf Version. While I haven't found a strong necessity in game one for removal (and I promise I've tested the deck "realistically"); but that's no reason to avoid it if it can be added. It is extremely important that we understand the differences between each version of Green Devotion so it make sense when we make generalized statements, discuss match-ups, card choices, etc. I fear that sometimes my testing results may mislead many of the players playing the Primal Command versions of the deck (as they tend to play differently against a few different match-ups). I love this primer for the very reason that I've learned so many important facts about the other versions daily. Fortunately for discussion, many of the match-ups follow somewhat similar lines for all of the devotion decks.
The elf version of green devotion excels with its speed, explosiveness, and ability to generate card advantage. It is meant overwhelm the opponent regardless of their availability of disruption. It does so, however, at the loss of interaction with the opponent. This is a very important weakness that must be accounted for. While fortunately it can side in strong interaction for games 2 and 3; game one should still have as much interaction as possible without effecting the purpose/speed of the deck. Fortunately for us, WOTC has recently printed some AMAZING permanents that allow us to interact through permanents (Cavern of Souls, Polukranos, Silklash, Ezuri (Regenerate), Sarhkhan Vol (steal) Domri Rade (fight) etc.. While these are amazing choices; it is not nearly as interactive as versions running 4 Primal Commands, Main Board Paths, Beast Within main, Plow Under, multiple 1-ofs and Chords, etc.
Because of it's lack of a large amount of "general" interaction; the deck must be VERY fast. This is a basic truth of any "aggro/combo" deck. If it wasn't, it could not win against fast combo decks with any consistency in game one. It must also have ample card draw or it would not hold up to decks with heavy amounts of removal/board wipes/disruption. Two non-interactive "combo" decks tend to race each-other in game one; so any "combo-esq" devotion deck has to be able to win by turn 4 consistently (with the reasonable possibility of turn 3 wins without disruption). Fortunately, the elf version can do this which allows it to win game one even against the fastest of combo decks.
As an example. In my last game one against Storm, I started turn 3 with a board consisting of a Forest enchanted with Utopia Sprawl, a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and an Elvish Archdruid (so not the greatest of starts...). By the attack phase, however, I had a 6/6 Coiling Oracle with haste and trample, a 6/6 Elvish Visionary with trample and haste, a 7/7 Ezuri with trample and haste, and a 12/12 Genesis Hydra with haste. This was 31 damage and was enough for lethal. The next turn the Storm player almost assuredly would have won. For anyone who would like a "step by step" explanation of how I got there; I'm happy to PM you. I can put it here...but I just didn't want to take up too much space within the primer/discussion. This just seemed like a good example from my most recent testing of why a deck like this must have both ample card draw and speed if it has no interaction. I have literally dozens of such interactions/games/game states if anyone would like a list of them to get a sense of how the deck works...but there is no need to bore you all with them
Of course most match ups go past turn 3, and most fair match ups play out quite differently; but this was just to illustrate a deck without heavy interaction can (and sometimes must) win against such decks. And of course the side board has to have good interaction for any match ups/cards that could benefit easily from it in games 2 and 3.
Having said this, based on your discussion (and Reid Duke's performance at the Invitational), I made the following changes to my main board:
1. Added One Domri Rade - Domri Rade is a really interesting idea. It's one of the planeswalkers I really haven't tested much. It always seemed a little "slow"; but thinking about it...it does offer some interesting effects. The "fight" ability is as good as removal for green decks...and lord knows I love card draw With Genesis Hydra he gets that much better (make a 6/6 Hydra, grab Domri, use him to destroy one of their creatures....I may have to try this despite not having Courser. A turn 2 Domri, drawing like crazy, off of a Wave he can be used to remove any problem creatures through his "fight" ability, or even possibly allowing us to give everyone haste and trample (although this would require the game went on to turn 6+. In a very "cute" way, he also can be used to help remove pesky flyers via his "fight" ability. Obviously it will take a lot more testing; but it is at least more promising than I had initially given it credit for.
2. Currently playing 2-3 Main Board Genesis Hydra - I'm beginning to REALLY like this card. It's crazily powerful and may end up being a better fit in a Genesis Wave deck than Chord of Calling is. It was nice to see Reid Duke playing a green devotion deck today in the Invitational running 4-Genesis Hydra...and the power the card can have. Of course, standard is a different beast altogether; but it was interesting to see the Genesis Hydra/Domri interaction on screen, and how effective the combo could be to remove a peskty creature...although it did make me want to play Nylea even more
The commentators also made some interesting points about his deck that follow ours (the posters on this primer) completely. They were saying how his deck was "better" than some of the other devotion decks (i.e. R/W, ones that are "all in" with BTE) because it can simply ramp into big creatures/win without a Nykthos. As Patrick Sullivan said, "Reid can do powerful things without Nykthos....and I've never seen that from green devotion..." He must not have seen this primer
3. Added Polukranos, World Eater to the Main Board - This was a very easy addition. Allows me to have an option to remove any truly pesky creatures. I've already used it to remove a Linvalla against Hatebearers, a Platinum Angel against Tron, as well as a Resto Angel vs. UWR Kiki-Control. Great Devotion card and added a facet to the deck I just didn't have before.
Adding both Polukranos and Domri has given me the ability to remove creatures in game one without slowing the deck down or reducing it's explosiveness. This was done purely based on the dicussion on this primer (and partially seeing Reid Duke's performance...but I don't know how much I would have noticed it without already being thinking about it, working on it, and testing it). This is just another reason I say THANK YOU to you guys for the great topics you discuss. I believe the deck is that much better than it was; and it wouldn't be without this primer. You guys/gals rock!
Summary and Testing Results
It's been awesome to see the FNM results, testing results, and other such results on here. Keep up the good work everyone! I just recently got on MTGO so I'm going to try to figure out how to play without "misclicks" etc. and play a daily or two next week if I can. Hopefully this will provide a little more insights/result information. It's great to see so many people playing devotion. As long as it keeps doing well in daily and tourneys; it should eventually become a viable archetype in Modern!
An aside on Tooth and Nail
@Swindley,
Sorry it took a little while to respond to your post about Tooth and Nail. I personally haven't tested Tooth and Nail much. I don't have any huge issues with the card; and it is nice to know that once you hit 9 mana that you have a pretty good chance of closing out the game I myself have found that I have really enjoyed "malleable" cards in devotion. Between Genesis Hydra, Genesis Wave, Chameleon Colossus, Kessig Wolf Run, Ezuri, Planeswalkers (who give you a couple choices, etc.) I like the cards that I can play different ways based on my game/board state and/or my availability of mana. I especially love the cards I can sink a TON of mana into (if I run into a scenario where I have 20+ available mana, I want to use it) but also allow me to cast them with only 6 mana. Basically, I like it when the deck is broken into the "engine" and the "sinks" because it allows you to always be able to play your cards no matter what the board position is. I can't tell you how many times I've cast Genesis Wave for X=4 to grab two lands an Arbor Elf and a Coiling Oracle (drawing a card). This instantly puts me in a far better position the next turn of having two additional devotion, two additional cards on board, and another card in hand...it's acts like a "5 for 1" in a way...Or a Genesis Hydra for X=2 to grab a Visionary, Oracle, or Arbor Elf to draw a card and up my devotion by 3...It changes everything even from a "poor" board state. This is the only explanation I can give for why I play Wave over Tooth and Nail. This also, however, is my preference in terms of play-style and my deck is built around such lines. A Tooth and Nail deck would look different.
I'm not entirely certain one choice is "better' than the other however. I haven't tested a Tooth and Nail version and have no idea how it performs vs. the current meta; so it would be disingenuous for me to say the Elf version is any "better". It's rare that I see things as "better" anyways (a deck is either competitive against the meta or its not...the rest boils down to playstyle and preference). All I can really do is say things I like about the deck, provide testing results, tips on how to play against certain decks, etc. Everyone has to choose the deck that fits their play-style and they feel is the most competitive.
I do, however, think the decks that run Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail are slightly different decks. Each can be taken advantage of differently. What I mean is that I don't think you can take the same deck and simply plug Tooth and Nail into the place of Genesis Wave or vice versa and try to compare them that way. One will always appear better than the other depending on the other cards in the deck. They require differing play styles, have slightly different functions, and require relatively different builds. Genesis Wave builds want far less non-permanent cards (where Tooth and Nail doesn't concern itself with this). Tooth and Nail wants creatures like Emrakul and Maybe Progenitus, etc. where Genesis Wave Versions tend to want creatures that can be cast outside of a Wave more easily as well. Tooth and Nail versions would much rather run Xenagod to give 1 big creature haste where Genesis Wave version may want Sarhkan Vol to give everyone haste. So even though they are very similar; they are also very different. This, however, is all "theory"
I think if I ran a "Tooth and Nail" version; I would probably run a strong amount of ramp and more "fatties" than I do now (like Emrakul, maybe Worldspine Wurm, etc.) because the fact that you can quickly put any creature directly into play from your hand is an important advantage you wouldn't want to give up. 7 mana is 1-turn quicker than 9 in most cases; and that can make all the difference. Tooth and Nail can be crazy without being Entwined. I would probably run a Garruk Caller of the Beasts (or two) as well as he kinda follows the same ideas you are trying to do and is GREAT card draw. It becomes more about cheating in fatties and less about building board states and overwhelming the opponent. It puts you in a slightly different place because you don't really care to hit 20+ mana because once you hit 7-9 your're great; but you also want to ramp to that 7-9 as quickly as possible so you can't skimp. I guess there would simply be less "engine" and more cards on the high and low ends. I haven't tested it; but I think I may probably run Summoner's Pact in the same build too. It fills in the need for more fatties without the need for a huge board like Chord. I feel like having Tooth and Nail and Garruk gives you the ability to put any creatures you want on the board (of course only green with Garruk...but Xenagos God counts...) so the second you have seven mana you would want to have your fattiest of fatties in your hand.
It's really interesting to think how devotion decks can take different lines. I am by no means an expert with Tooth and Nail, so the above are only ideas meant to kinda point out the idea that Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail are not really "interchangeable" cards in the same deck. Both have merits and downsides and require slightly different "support" to flourish. Of course, the same could be said for Chord, Primal Command, etc. I personally prefer Genesis Wave; but I can totally understand those who prefer Tooth and Nail and I wouldn't be surprised if a Tooth and Nail deck could be just as competitive. I just haven't tested it. I'd love to hear more about your testing results and would be extremely interested to see how a Tooth and Nail "version" of devotion evolves into a competitive build!
Valanarch- Telling Time has been pretty solid in my deck. I am testing with two of them in my deck. They work extremely well with Delver of Secrets, they help finding lands if we are a little light, and it works very well with Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability. With the amount of fetches in the deck it can get a little tricky, but so far so good.
I have also been trying a pet card of mine Raise the Alarm in the deck. It is a instant for Grim Lavamancer food, Snapcaster Mage flashbacks, and Delver of Secrets flips and it helps with Liliana of the Veil and other sacrifice effects to protect our beaters. I will keep everyone posted. I am starting a testing session this evening so I will post how all of my testing goes. Let me know how you feel about Raise the Alarm and Telling Time.
I like Steel of the Godhead for a few good reasons. Steel is good, obviously, on Geist, but it also turns Judge's Familiar into a beatstick in the midgame. The lifelink is relevant and it makes SCM a hammer as well. So good.
Hope this opened some minds to at least one idea.
-ABC
Very cool list! I love to see people who run their own signature builds of WUR/Jeskai Delver. I have been testing a bit with Steel of the Godhead as well. Must be the collective conscience :). I never thought of adding Judge's Familiar with it as well though. That is a really good idea. I will have to tinker with that a little bit. Thanks for posting the list.
I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck. If there's anything I or our little community can do to help; let me /us know. And if we're being honest, I don't think there's any doubt you would have won the GP. :).
That is awesome! And the way you provide actual results, card specific discussion, and match by match discussion is so amazingly helpful. Congrats on your great results!
Hi Black Dog. I was beginning to think I was the only one left on the topic :). Are you playing the list you posted earlier in the post, or has anything changed?
I totally agree with you about Young Pyromancer. I just don't get it in these decks. I understand how it works, but 1/1 tokens just don't seem powerful enough. Especially when you have access to Geist of Saint Traft.
I have been working with some spicey stuff just to see if the deck can be improved. I have played around with Swerve, Steel of the Godhead, Telling Time. Nothing has really stuck yet, but I have added a second copy of Boros Charm. I think it is very powerful right now. It gives the reach we need and protects our threats.
I would love to see you get a win with the list at GP Madrid. If the meta stays somewhat similar (although I'm not sure what the meta is overseas), I think this deck is a good choice in most large fields. Best of luck!
Hello Again Guys! Wanted to provide my second "set" of testing results...tried a few new decks out and still tested agasint some of the old. I've been trying to find the best way to format these things to give the most information; but please let me know if there is something missing and/or think there is a better way to present the info. Before that, I thought I'd discuss a few things here:
On Magus of the Moon
I did have two Magus of the Moon in the sideboard for a while; but often found that the decks that it really hosed (Junk, Rock, Pod, etc.) were matches I already have a great match up against. And control (where I REALLY wanted them); over half the time they run Lightning Bolt; so he was dead relatively quickly. I did, however, only run it for about 40-50 matches; so I can't say I tested it extensively. I would LOVE to hear more about Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon and how it effects match-ups.
On Nylea's Presence
I so badly want to play Nylea's Presence over Abundant Growth. It allows both Arbor Elf and Nissa Worldwaker to untap Nykthos. I just don't know if the extra colorless mana throws off the sequencing of the deck. There are many games where I feel as though I would need the extra mana...very tough decision that is going to take a LOT of testing. My gut tells me I have to stick with Abundant Growth...my heart wants to so badly to play with Nylea's Presence.
On Sideboard
I still don't think my sideboard is quite there. I just don't "feel" right. Like there is something out there I'm missing. It's really difficult to side with the Elf Version because a huge advantage of the deck is its crazy speed and "overwhelming nature"; so you want to take as little of that away as possible while still hating the deck you are playing against. I'm still not entirely happy with the board, but I will continue to test new cards until I feel like I've "got there". OF course, boards always change (and will continue to forever); but it's important that the "core" of the board get to a point where I feel like the perfect cards are coming in and out against the toughest match-ups. The toughest match ups by far are the slower blue-based decks; which makes me want to play 4 Caverns and go beatdown...but that may be too simple. Again, gonna take more testing.
Current Main Board Changes
Since the last set of testing matches; I have made three changes to the deck. I can't guarantee that they make the deck better; but I wanted to try them out; so I did. I'm all about trying things to see if they work, but I traditionally do it only 1-card at a time (i.e. I will only switch out 1-card out at a time for another...test a bunch...pick the card I prefer...then switch out another card...) Anywho, here are the changes:
a. The first was switching out the Chord of Calling's for Genesis Hydra's. Genesis Hydra tends to be a little more aggressive than Chords; which follows the line of this deck. It also essentially "draws a card" (and plays it!)...as was said before it basically has "cascade"...and card/board advantage is a big part of this version. It also adds two+ devotion (it's own devotion plus the devotion of what it "grabs") to the board rather quickly. I found myself "Chording" for 1-3 to grab either a "draw card" or "ramp card" a majority of the time; so I figured I'd give it a try here. It's been extremely promising. The fact that it can grab planeswalkers was something I didn't even think about up front; but it has been a huge benefit. There are definite cons however. You don't always get exactly what you are looking for (i.e. sometimes I want a "draw elf" and only hit a Utopia Sprawl or Arbor Elf, etc.). Not having Chord of Calling does make me weary to only play one Ezuri, Renegade Leader and one Craterhoof Behemoth (however both tend to win off of a Genesis Wave a good portion of the time). It will take far more testing to determine which is better vs. the other; but I have been extremely happy with how versatile and powerful the Genesis Hydra has been in this version of the deck.
As an aside, I added another Cavern of Souls. While the fact that Genesis Hydra can be "uncounterable" is a big positive against control decks vs. Chord; it's not the entire reason I added another Cavern.
b. I added a Chameleon Colossus in place of one of the Primeval Titan. I love the idea that it is another elf, and it's activated ability basically forces the opponent to block him or die most games. That, and the pro-black has been a noticeable advantage. 4-CMC is a good place for this deck too. Prime Time is a HUGE card in this deck, however (as it grabs Kessig Wolf Run and/or Nykthos if needed)...so I have to be sure only running 2 is enough. It's been very good, however, so it may stay in the main-board and/or I may end up adding 1 or 2 to the sideboard if need be.
c. The final change was adding a third Cavern of Souls to the deck. It just destroys control decks; and with the addition of another potential "elf" win-con and replacing two "spells" with a "creature" (Chords to Hydras) it felt like a good fit. That, and the only blue I splash is for Coiling Oracle which can also be generated with Cavern of Souls...so there are a lot of factors that help allow this.
With that said, however, here is the current list:
** This sideboard is the newest version of my sideboard. The sideboard utilized in this testing session had two Choke, and no Thrun, the Last Troll or Chord of Calling. Chord is meant to act as a "second copy" of any of the 1-of creatures that is best against the match-up. **
Testing Results (Set Two)
The first few match ups are decks I had played before (and simply tried again with the small changes); so there may not be a ton of new and useful information there. I did, however, try to play some different decks this time around so that I could see how the deck reacts to differing match ups.
Vs. Pod (6&2) - Pre-Board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
Haven't played this a ton since the last set because there didn't seem like much to worry about. Was a little easier this time around; but that could literally just be better draws. Basically, if they don't combo off rather quickly, they lose. They just don't have enough removal to deal with this deck. The one game they did win they hit the Spike Feed/Archangel Combo (with two Noble Hierarchs). I did try out a Polukranos, World Eater post-board in this match-up (I've just added it given the rise in Lingering Souls) and it actually did quite well. I can definitely see the appeal of Bonfire of the Damned (which would be even more powerful although doesn't provide the body or devotion).
Vs. Rock (6&2) - Pre-Board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
Tried this again because it is maintaining popularity. This is quite possibly the easiest match up we have. I was fortunate to draw into a Chameleon Colossus in two match ups as well (which can quickly end the game if they have no green blockers. If Pod, Rock, and Jund continue to be popular in the meta; I may even add a second to the board (however I have to be sure that it is powerful in other matches as well). It still can beat us, however. If they get a turn two Dark Confidant they can go toe to toe with our card advantage (especially if they go into a turn three Liliana). But very few decks are great against a turn 2 Bob and Turn 3 Liliana! The only two games Rock beat me were with a turn 2 Dark Confidant.
Vs. UW Control (7&5) - Pre-Board 3&3 - Post-Board 4&2
I purposefully built this deck because I figured it would be the toughest deck for me outside of Twin. I chose the deck on MTG Top 8 that runs 4 Supreme Verdict, 4 Path to Exile, 4 Cryptic Commands, Detention Spheres, Mana Leaks, and Spell Snares....basically the most disruption I could find. And this match-up is a little tougher. Its top end is planeswalkers (Elspeth, Knight Errant, Gideon Jura, and Jace Beleren) ; so they can also kind of fight the card advantage as well.
On area that I did want to point out is that several of you had discussed the use of Boil and Choke. This deck runs four of each Seachrome Coast, four Celestial Colonnade and three Mystic Gate's...all of which avoid both cards. So you guys were absolutely right...while Boil and Choke may be amazing against decks like Twin, Scapeshift, UR Aggro, etc. (who play a lot of fetches and shocks) there are control decks that they are dead to (like this one).
And I was right It is a very tough match up. Just as with many other control decks; Cavern of Souls is AMAZING. An early Cavern can cripple them (as it effectively shuts off 50% of their hand in most cases. I did find Genesis Hydra to be good in this match up (as once cast you have two creatures they didn't counter and have to deal with...one of which is generally 5/5 or higher). I honestly think that my single best weapon against control may be Cavern of Souls...even more so than any current sideboard options. Beast Within, however, seemed especially good here. I had two different match-ups post-board where the opponent tapped out (or left only 1 mana up) for a Gideon Jura under the impression that I could only attack Gideon that I simply end of turn cast Beast Within to turn Gideon into a 3/3 and won the next turn. It's no surprise that Beast Within is good; but this is just another area where it can be utilized. It also allowed me to bring back permanents like Garruk or Prime Time that had been Detention Sphere'd away to be triggered again. Such a versatile spell that is certainly staying in the board.
This is still not a match I am entirely comfortable with. Although I feel like Anger of the Gods may be a slightly better removal against us, Supreme Verdict is still powerful (and twice I had to play around it by not casting something that I would immediately cast in other match ups). Between that and all of the removal/counter magic; these games are not nearly the same as other match ups. It still about board presence and overwhelming them; but it's far more about picking your spots. For turns one and two (and sometimes three if they started slow or their second land was a Celestial Colonnade and came in tapped) I generally went as quickly as I could, ramping and drawing as fast as I could until they built up the mana to begin disrupting things. After that, you have to slow WAY down and begin to chip away and wait for them to cast things. Obviously, hitting Cavern of Souls changes the game substantially; but without it you still can build a board.
Also, we should thank our lucky stars that Baneslayer Angel doesn't have protection from Red....without Combust they would have easily won two more matches post board than they did. Combust has turned out to pretty strong flyer hate (as most good flyers are in those two colors). We all tend to play Red too (because of Kessig Wolf Run); so I think it is a card we can all use to our advantage!
Vs. GW Hatebears 7&3 - Pre-Board 3&2 - Post-Board 4&1
This deck is an interesting match. It seems like whoever gets the early lead maintains it. If they get an early Linvala, Keeper of Silence it can be very difficult (as she cuts off Arbor Elf). They also have enough flyers (Linvala, Resto Angel, Aven Mindscensor, and Flickerwisp) to do lethal damage if we don't build the board to lethal quickly enough. Interestingly, both Genesis Wave and Genesis Hydra both simply "reveal" cards off the top of your deck, so you are not actually searching your deck when casting them (so they aren't affected by hate that deals with this). This started getting me thinking about taking out fetches altogether and running fetch-hate (the recent Root Maze idea is an interesting one)...but I digress...
In this match-up, it is important that we get out quick and don't keep slow hands. A lot of their most powerful cards are 3-4 drops; so if they don't get a turn 1 Aether Vial often times we will build the board more quickly than them. This, however, is one of the few decks that can just fly over our board; so we have to still be fast even if they only have two creatures to our 4-5. Fortunately, their removal is minimal (basically just Path to Exile in game one).
Sarkhan Vol was suprisingly good in this match-up. I had one game where I simply stole their Linvala and "Kessig'd" her to fly over their blade splicer and token to win the match. Most match ups aren't ready for a creature to be stolen; and this has been an ability of Sarkhan's that I have ended up using more than I originally anticiptated. I'm very heavily leaning towards adding another one to the deck; but I have to be careful as Sarkhan Vol is only truly powerful if you already have a board of a few creatures (and isn't poweful on his own as both Nissa and Garruk can be).
This does make me wish for a way to deal with multiple Flyers. This deck shows how many playable efficient flyers are in white alone (this isn't including delver, v.clique, lingering souls, stormbreath, etc.). Between Flickerwisp, Restoration Angel, Linvala, and Keeper of Silence; they quickly have 3-6 damage in the air. While Combust is great; I really would like to have an option to take care of multiple Flyers at once. A long while back, I remember playing Silklash Spider and absolutely loving it; so I may try it again here. I'll be looking into sideboard flyer hate immediately!
Vs. U/R Storm (8&4) - Pre-Board 3&3 - Post-Board 5&1
I watned to play this a little more than some others simply because I haven't played a ton of quick combo decks (like Ad Nauseum, etc.) Pre-board this match up literally came down to who was on the play. I kind of expected this with two quick decks with little disruption; but sometimes I'm surprised by match-ups...this wasn't one of those times. Both decks tend to win by turn 3 or 4 if completely uninterrupted; and in these few cases that is exactly what happened Obviously, there can certainly be scenarios where one or both of us don't draw a good hand or top-deck poorly; it just did happen in these six games. Post-board it was a little different. We both slowed ourselves down a bit; but they seemed to slow themselves more. Again, being able to turn a Pyromancer's Ascension into a 3/3 creature really slows them down (thank you lord for Beast Within!)...but also Nature's Claim made it easy to make sure they never had an "active' asscension.
This is one of the few match-ups (outside of graveyard decks and mill decks) that I also sided in Wheel of Sun and Moon; and it's really good here! I actually Genesis Hydra'd into it; and the opponent instantly lost the ability to use both his Ascensions as well as his Past in Flames. I hadn't even thought of that when I put the card in the deck (it was more for Living End and random Mill decks); but I was pleasantly surprised.
Vs. Infect 6&2 - Pre-board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
This match-up is almost entirely based on whether they get a quick flying and/or unblockable creature. They don't tend to move quickly enough with the creatures that can be "chumped"; however if they get a turn two Blighted Agent its damn near impossible for me to win (both losses had a turn two agent). It's a much tougher match up than I thought it would be. I seemed to "eek out" wins (having 8-9 infect on the turn I won). Not entirely sure this is a "good" match up based on this set of testing due to this (as it just as easily could have been 3&5 as it was 6&2 due entirely to two Genesis Wave's and a Polukranos.
Vs. Affinity 3&1 - Pre-Board 1&1 - Post-Board 2&0
Only played a few games against Affinity (as I've played a lot against them in the past). It's historically not been too tough of a match. I just wanted to see if one Creeping Corrosion is enough. It appears to be.
Summary
While the record was 43 - 19 (69%) this is pretty darn close to the averages I've seen with this deck (which has been around 68%)...with the few matches that get "stolen" with Waves as well as the few infect games that could have gone the other way...the results could have fallen a little lower than traditional just as easily. This is also a smaller set than the last one; but big enough to take a little info from.
The deck is still weak to control-oriented decks/cards (both blue and white). I really would like to find a few sideboard cards (or even maybe some "set" of cards) that "flips" the match up. Whether it be another Cavern and 4 Mistcutter Hydras, or something crazy like that...if the board could make these match-ups super favorable while still being "fast" this deck would be in a VERY good spot in the meta. The deck is just so powerful against "creature-based" decks like Rock, Pod, Junk, Jund, etc. and is fast enough to fight with and race decks like Boggles, Infect, and Affinity that if decks like Twin, Scapeshift, UW Control, and UWR Control were post-board favorable match-ups; this could be a deck that could really compete. I like Boil for Twin, UR Aggro, Scapeshift, and Merfolk; but you are right that it's not a great answer to UW and UWR control builds in most cases.
So, there's more to do...but there always is! I like where the deck is at now, however; and the only real question is whether to play Genesis Hydra or Chord of Calling. I don't have a definitive "one is superior to the other" answer yet (going to take more games where I draw it and write down the potential differences). Right now there are more checks in the Genesis Hydra box; but it's far too early to know with any certainty.
Cards I Still Want to Try
While of course decks will always see changes (as new cards come out, meta's shift, new ideas arise, etc.); there are still a few cards that are high on my list and/or that I feel could be good in the deck. The top choices are:
1. Nylea, God of the Hunt - a 4-drop that most of the time will be a 6/6 indestructible creature who also gives my creatures trample (especially important if Chameleon Colossus and Genesis Hydra stay in the deck) and can pump at instant speed if I have any mana "left over"...sounds so good on paper. Have to try it somewhere.
2. Mistcutter Hydra - I use Cavern of Souls to great success; but it couldn't hurt to have another strong card against Blue. Especially one with haste and Pro-Blue.
3. Bonfire of the Damned - Ridiculously powerful spell that would also deal with flyers...not sure how well I'd like it given all of the card draw in the deck (as this reduces the amount of times it would be cast at "Miracle" cost), but a neat idea for at minimum the sideboard.
4. Silklash Spider - This is a GREAT flying hater; and can even be great against twin (even 100 flyers die because he does the same amount of damage to all flyers. I will be testing this immediately.
5. Root Maze - I honestly think this may be something that could help in my tougher match ups. It would probably require me to remove my Misty Rainforests and play more duals; but I have Arbor Elf, Nissa, and Garruk untapping things. Would be interesting to see how this effects control match ups (especially UWR that runs a good amount of fetches).
There's always going to be things to try. I'm even toying with another Chameleon Colossus in the baord. That, and we have new spoilers coming!!! Hopefully there is some amazing Temur cards that may fit perfectly in here. A boy can dream!
Interactions and Funny Idea
I have had a few people ask me to provide some examples of how the deck's "synergy" works. I have written down several different game states, interactions, etc. (i.e. "stringing" Genesis Waves, Genesis Hydra into Sarkhan to attack for 10, showing how quickly you can draw and build devotion from "nothing", etc.). I didn't write it out here because this post would take up a full page or more; but I'd he happy to do so if anyone would like to see them (either via PM's and/or publicly on here if preferable to many).
And to end this post, a fun idea...so I have a "spoiler season sickness". I LOVE to try to jam as many new cards into my decks as quickly as I can when I see them. 95% of the time, the new card is worse than the card it would replace (and the decklist stays exactly the same). My first crazy idea for Tarkir is...Dragon Throne of Tarkir! Add another Genesis Hydra, to the deck....Cast a Hydra for X=6, grab a Dragon Throne of the top...the very next turn, my elves are all +6/+6 and trample for the remainder of the game (assuming I pay the 3 to equip and 2 to activate each turn and BOTH the Hydra and the Throne stay around)!...so powerful...and sounds so easy
Such great points. You nailed it on the head about the difficulties of building with Genesis Wave as well as some of the "pitfalls" of Green Devotion as a whole (many builds find themselves ramping into nothing, etc.); and why the "Silver Bullet" versions and "Genesis Wave" versions have to have slightly different "engines" and even slightly different win-cons than one another despite having some of the same "core" cards and ideas within the decks.
In terms of your history with Genesis Wave...I'm not surprised about your issues with control. Control is far and away the toughest match up for the Genesis Wave versions of devotion. It's taken me quite some time to get the main board to a place where I feel it has a viable chance against control decks in game one (between 3 Cavern of Souls; early and often card advantage, more creatures, etc.) And there are cases in game one where your only choice is to run the Wave out and hope And I couldn't agree with you more about Boseiju Who Shelters All. It just felt slow and akward when I played it. As a 1-of; I always felt like it would only work in a deck with either Knight of the Reliquary and/or Sylvan Scrying...but then your stretching just so you can play a spell the turn after you've tutored for a land! Needless to say, I haven't played Boseiju in a while either. I can see its use in a deck with far more instants and sorceries...but not just for Genesis Wave. To be entirely honest, in games two and three I generally side out all three Waves against control anyways. It's just far better against control to keep throwing permanents at them (especially with Caverns) and out-draw them...they don't know what to do when their opponent has more questions than they have answers for
You are also right that building with Wave can quickly devolve into a deck that is inconsistent. It gets so exciting to cast a wave for X=20 that many often will fill a deck with ramp, a few huge fatties and 4 waves. The only problem is they may have games where they draw Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Forest, Nykthos, Overgrowth, Utopia Sprawl, Genesis Wave, Birds of Paradise, Voyaging Satyr, and another Nykthos over the first 3 turns. Sure, they have access to a ton of mana...but if that Wave gets taken away and/or countered...they are in "top deck" mode for the remainder of the game hoping they either top deck a huge card or Wave and/or hoping their opponent does nothing. That was my biggest issue with MH's first version. It seemed like many games (especially those where it's opponent could interact) it often burned through it's entire hand and was quickly in top deck mode...of course it could win games very quickly; but the consistency (in my opinion) wasn't there. He did slowly move from this, however; and his deck became the Modern Shell of many devotion decks. I don't mean to say MJ's version was bad...on the contrary, it helped present on a popular stream many of the ideas we all use (including both Genesis Wave and the Command Lock.) It was just a huge catalyst of my realization that a Genesis Wave Green Devotion deck may perform better if it was built within a shell with huges amounts of card draw/advantage (so that the engine kept going, and going, and going
"Silver Bullet" Version
You are by no means "wrong" for playing the "Silver Bullet" version of the deck. I truly and honestly believe that the "Silver Bullet" version and the "Genesis Wave" versions are equally competitive and equally viable in the meta. The Silver Bullet deck is awesome. Both take advantage of devotion in different ways; but both are GREAT. I think they can co-exist together. There doesn't really have to be a "winner" (just as there are Little Zoo, Big Zoo, and Domain Zoo, Tempo & Tarmo Twin, Affinity and now "No Affinity", Melira and Kiki Pod, Junk and Jund (basically Rock with either red or white splash), etc....we do can play two different styles of "Green Devotion" while still having both be incredibly competitive. I think the Silver Bullet version is spectacular. The Genesis Wave version (and even more narrow, the "Elf Version" of it) just fits my play-style and preferences more. It's better for me (i.e. I win more with it) simply because it fits the way I think/play. The exact opposite would be true for many playing the Silver Bullet version.
I think it's brilliant to play a Genesis Wave or two in your board. In certain match ups (Pod, Rock, Affinity, anything "fair" etc.) it is absolutely devastating. Great call!
Removal
Your discussion was literally the single biggest reason I thought, "You know what...I can actually run removal in my deck through Domri and Polukranos main board and add a little interaction in game one..." It litearlly just so happened that I was on a big Genesis Hydra kick and that very evening I watched Reid Duke use the Hydra along with Domri Rade and Setessan Tactics to pretty much remove any creature he wanted.
I didn't feel like you were disparaging my list specifically. I apologize if I came off that way or my comment seemed too defensive. I thought your comments were perfect as I too often make somewhat "generalized" comments based on my testing with my version; and it helped me realize that I have to be really specific about how the interaction worked in my version (and also how to equate it to other versions). It actually also was a real help because it got me thinking about ways I could add removal for game one! Also, it gave me a great way to discuss something I had been wishing to discus for some time (how the Genesis Wave and/or "Elf Version" plays very differently from the "Silver Bullet or "Primal Command/Chord" version and the reasons why the must play differently). And you are a thousand percent right that without either interaction, card advantage, or both; green Devotion decks simply don't have long-term staying power/resiliency.
It's tough to read inflection on-line and I honestly don't think anything you said sounded anything but constructive!
To answer your more deck-specific questions:
Nissa Revane
I'm not sold 100% on Nissa Revane. I just wanted lifegain and she seemed like the best source (as she will on average trigger for 6-8 life and I can do it each turn. Makes it very difficult for a lot of decks. I have not tested her much yet, and she may not be worth it. You are absolutely right that I may be better off with just another Domri Rade or simply running a Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, or some such lifelink powerhouse.
Courser of Kruphix
I wanted to separate my discussion about Courser of Kruphix because this is the single most important choice that I am torn apart about and literally go back and forth daily...the choice between Elvish Archdruid and Courser of Kruphix. Courser is simply AMAZING. As you said, he provides card advantage, life gain...and the best thing is that his interactions with BOTH Domri Rade and Coiling Oracle are astounding. Not to mention the life-gain you get off of a Genesis Wave.
I constantly go back and fourth with whether I should play Courser or Elvish Archdruid. I even bought three foil Coursers a long time ago (when I finished foiling the deck out). If I did put Courser in Archdruid's place, however, I think I may then need to switch Elvish Visionary for something like Wall of Roots or Voyaging Satyr (as I lose a lot of early and voluminous mana without Archdruid and I gain a good amount of card advantage with Courser). At that point, however, I'd have to replace Ezuri as well....but the deck could still be powerful simply because Courser is so amazing. I will pay attention tonight to see if I ever wish an Archdruid was a Courser.
I guess my biggest concerns are:
a. How the change would effect the speed and sequencing of the deck. The deck works in a very specific way (each turn uses mana very efficiently); so even a small change like moving the card advantage to 3 and the ramp to 2 can change things...so these changes could slow the deck down to a point where it is simply not as viable/competitive. Courser does tend to play a little slower than most in my deck (he works better over multiple turns).
b. With haste, (from Sarkhan or now Temur Ascendancy) Archdruid becomes crazy good.
c. Losing the power of Cavern of Souls which is an EXTREMELY powerful card against control builds
Mana Fixing and Blue Source
I haven't had any really problems with only having only 1 of each Stomping Ground and/or Breeding pool because of the full sets of Abundant Growth and Utopia Sprawl within the deck. I often set Utopia Sprawl to "red" (unless I have a Coiling Oracle in my opening hand and no Cavern, Misty, or Breeding Pool and generally always have the blue for Coiling Oracle because Cavern can be used as well. Abundant Growth helps fix quite a bit as well because it can make the same land tap for both red and blue (as well as green of course). Having said that, I may need to add a second Stomping Ground and/or Breeding Pool to the deck; as I really could get away with 6 Basic Forests and still be ok on that front and it can only help fix even more. Just because fixing is rarely a problem doesn't mean it shouldn't be better if it can be. I'm of course adding Wooded Foothills to the deck (even if it's just 2 Misty Rainforests and 2 Wooded Foothills) because...it's awesome they're in Modern!
And I'm just like you....I LOVE the conversations about the builds, the archetype, etc. It can only make all of our decks better...And it's just nice to talk to fellow green mages and hear how well some of our little "green community" performs in their local metas!
It's so great to see that everyone has an option of a list to choose from that fits their play-style and preferences. Just another reason this Primer is great. Thanks to Gnuhouse and Pedros for creating this thread and keeping it alive early to become what it has become now. A lot of people have found a green devotion list that they prefer just from finding this...and that's big for the archetype.
That is a great point! With the possibility of 12 "on color" fetch lands Steppe Lynx is a great choice for the aggro style build of this deck. I could just simply replace my Grim Lavamancers, Batterskull, and Chandra, Pyromaster and go aggro. If the meta is midrange/control heavy, the aggro build could be the best choice.
Very cool that you will be playing the build regularly now. I can't wait to hear that you joined the Pro Tour!
I get confused whether is WUR, UWR, RWU, etc so I have just given in and called it Jeskai Delver. To each their own.
Also I was really hoping the new Legendary Jeskai creature would fit in our deck, but she is just too high on the curve. I can't wait to see the Jeskai Charm though!
Thank you for the kind words PHF! It means a lot to me that your starting your deck with my shell. I'm excited to see your deck and its performance. I am super excited about the deck's evolution. Some of the newer cards have really pushed it to an even better place I believe (more interaction, card advantage on the high end, etc.) I'm excited to hear how your take on devotion performs. Its time for you to be the one doing the brutal beating
I am testing a BUNCH today (gonna play from now till midnight) and I will make sure to focus on Abundant Growth and if it was switched out). I am a big fan of Abundant Growth just because it "smooths out" the deck. It digs for land (as we only run 20), adds on devotion that is very difficult to remove, replaces itself, and off of a Genesis spell (Hydra or Wave) it at worst draws a card (its nice to refill you hand on a small Wave). The fixing can be important too (especially now that I'm thinking of playing Temur Ascendancy...although the majority of the time it will ETB from a Genesis spell); but if you played Sarkhan Vol it becomes less of a worry (as the blue for Oracle can come from a Cavern of Souls).
To be honest; the only way to know is to try! I would be super interested to hear how it goes! I would maybe drop the Nissa and/or the third Genesis Hydra and run 3 Witnesses (as you've increased the curve quite a bit and added another win-com...so this may just smooth it out a bit. I haven't tested it; so I could be wrong, but I would probably start there and and add back if you're getting too many Witness's before you need them.
The good news is that Eternal Witness is a spectacular card in this build btw...I went back and forth between Witness and Elvish Archdruid for months. She 'a great because off of a Wave often times another Wave, a Primal Command, or a Genesis Hydra will go to the graveyard; and she will trigger to put it right back in your hand to start the loop; string Waves, etc. Waving for 6+ traditionally will net you a Garruk, a Nykthos, and/or some lands; so often times the Primal Lock can be cast right after a Wave for a quasi-same turn "win". Its one interaction I don't get to see often; but I enjoy it.
I won't take up too much of your time; but if you play Eternal Witness; you may want to run 1-2 more fetches as well ( and now you can run Wooded Foothills too!). This deck moves fast; and an early Eternal Witness would suck without a minimum of a land to grab. Also; this will help relieve some of the fixing / land digging advantages of Abundant Growth!
I'm excited to see your list and its performance! It may start with my shell; but it's 100% your deck. Great ideas!
This is the exact reason why I think this reprint is GREAT for magic. I own foils and regular copies of each of the onslaught fetches, so I took a hit, but that is a hit I am willing to take 100 times over so others can get into the format and play the decks they want to play. I love it!
On another note, now I can put my Flooded Strands into my favorite deck- my Modern Jeskai (Yes, I'm using it now) Delver Deck.
The Raise the Alarms just didn't offer enough power or utility. Telling Time is still being tested and has been mostly positive.
I have been testing Steel of the Godhead for a couple of weeks and it was great when it hit on a Geist or made my Snapcaster unblockable for the last three damage, but at three drop it seemed a little steep in some matchups. It may be a great sideboard card. With that said, I never tested it with Judge's Familiar which makes a huge difference. When testing I actually tried to think of other targets I could add to the deck to utilize both white and blue and never came up with one. I can't believe I overlooked the little bird. I don't think I have room in my current build for this, but I definitely like the Godhead Delver list in a heavy burn/aggro meta. It also has enough permission to deal with combo. Also- go ahead and change your misty rainforest to a flooded strand!
I'm excited for all of you guys running Naya colors (as you got both of your fetches!). I for sure will be putting in Wooded Foothills in mine too! This has been such a great night for spoilers...now all we need is for some amazing sideboard card to be spoiled!
I quite like the new fetches. I think it will allow for Esper and Grixis to become part of the meta and in terms of this deck; there was a fetch that works for nearly everyone whose posted a deck! Granted, it won't make the biggest difference in the world (aka no difference); but it's still a positive difference even if on the smallest degree.
To provide my two cents on your question...I do think it changes the mana base for most decks on here (especially those splashing white) simply because they match the colors of the deck; but to be honest we won't notice a change because every shockland we fetch is a Forest. Hell, some people may play the off-color one's just to throw off the opponent for a turn or two
Blood Moon is not typically an issue for most of the decks on here (outside of the fact that it turns off Nykthos). A good amount of the lists on here run Blood Moon themselves! Most of the decks will generally have at least one and most likely 2 Basic Forests out by the time it's played and a lot of us splash red anyways...of course, it knocks Utopia Sprawl off of shock lands (if you were forced to enchant a non-basic or just made a bad play). In my build and a few others, we run Abundant Growth's as well; which even after a Blood Moon is cast allows us to tap the "Mountain" for Green (or any color for that matter)...but that's really more of a "perk" than a necessity for a devotion deck. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Abundant Growth in devotion. Michael Jacobs used to say they were "way better" than Elvish Visionary...I don't know if I'd go that far; but they have been amazing in terms of increasing devotion while fixing mana and drawing a card. Not many cards can do all of that at once.
Having said all of this, for Green Devotion I think fetches are going to be more of a "cosmetic" benefit than anything else. But that's still good news! I'd love to hear of any deck that got more than just a aesthetic bonus from the new fetches. Hopefully this spoiler season will provide a few more cards for we green mages to mull over.
Hey Guerte,
Some neat ideas here!
A card you may want to think about trying out is Eidolon of Blossoms. You run soooo many enchantments that this could lead to HUGE amounts of card draw for you. I haven't tested your version, so I can't say with certainty what to remove; but maybe removing one Voyaging Satyr and one Overgrowth to start (and running two Eidolons) may be enough. I'd probably run three; but I'm also a nut about card draw. You just have so much mana that most likely you will be able to cast whatever you draw the second you draw it :cool::cool: I have a couple extra copies if you want me to send them your way...I know that's weird, but I'd rather you have em than me sit em in a box.
Avenger of Zendikar off of a Wave is a really neat idea that I haven't seen a ton of...I like it! It is such a neat card because of the way Wave works. You end up getting so many lands that not only would he put more tokens into play; but you ALSO get all of those landfall triggers (as they all enter the battlefield at the same time)! Find a way to give em haste and it's game over on the same turn Great idea.
I think the deck looks like it has a little room to grow in terms of card-draw/consistency; but the core idea is certainly there. It's definitely fast and explosive!!
GOD I LOVE SPOILERS! Attached a picture below. I'll be trying it in place of Sarkhan Vol immediately. Can't steal a creature any more; but I think it's made up in value.
And I think the way it works that if you grab it with a Genesis Hydra of X=4 or greater...you get to draw another card! Fingers Crossed
Here's the link if you can't see the photo:
https://twitter.com/the_stybs/status/505901175963525120/photo/1
I know it's been a relatively short period (however it did take me two weeks just to provide the second set of testing results after I had written them out) but I have a third "set" based on some of the most recent changes to the list that I've been trying out as well as a "Sideboard Template" for those of those wishing to play the Elf Version. I will post these this long weekend. I did want to preface it, however, with the most recent changes to the deck.
The main changes from the original version are as follows:
1. Running three Genesis Hydra over Chord of Calling. They are just amazing, especially against control which can often be our toughest match up. I don't know how else to say how well they play other than saying try them out. Obviously, the power of Genesis Hydra would be greatly reduced in other versions (Primal Command/Chord version, etc.) due to your having far more non-permanent spells and far less walkers); but in this version it is unreal. Also, with Polukranos currently in the deck along with Chameleon Colossus...I can set Cavern of Souls on "Hydra" and not feel so bad about it
2. Added a 1-of Polukranos, World Eater to the main-board in place of one Coiling Oracle and a 1-of Domri Rade in place of one Nissa, Worldwaker. I talk about this at length below, but these were done to add a small amount of game one interaction in situations where it is needed (provided one example below). I will miss a second Nissa, however with the level of card draw and digging this deck now has; I can tend to get to Nissa by turn 3 (which is typically when you want to cast her so she can be "free"). I LOVE Coiling Oracle...it's ETB trigger is nuts; so I will be focused heavily on ensuring I don't need to get a fourth one back in. I still run 16 elves; so Ezuri, Renegade Leader and Elvish Archdruid still are strong enough in the deck. Since Polukranos is now in the main, I've replaced him in the board with Silklash Spider to deal with flyers.
3. Keeping the third Cavern of Souls in the deck. It's simply put my best weapon against control decks (which are among our toughest match-ups). Having main-board "hate" aganst them not only makes game one FAR easier...it also opens up the board for more utility.
That's the sum of changes. While the deck may look a little crazy with a bunch of 1, 2, and 3-of's....it's been "boiled down" by hundreds of games of testing. Anywho, here's the deck:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Coiling Oracle
3x Elvish Archdruid
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Primeval Titan
3x Genesis Hydra
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Sarkhan Vol
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
1x Domri Rade
Instants/Sorceries
3x Genesis Wave
Lands
4x Misty Rainforest
7x Forest
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Boil
2x Beast Within
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Combust
1x Silklash Spider
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Mistcutter Hydra
1x Nissa Revane
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Summoner's Pact
The new sideboard cards include:
1. Summoner's Pact - Basic "2nd copy of wanted creature" in the deck. Was Chord by not Pact simply due to Genesis Hydra and Mistcutter Hydra.
2. Nissa Revane - This is simply life-gain that I can keep triggering. Some of the more difficult match-ups include Burn, Scapeshift, Ad Nauesum, Storm, and Merfolk. In all of these match-ups; if you're on the play you need just one more turn. This allows us do have that turn by making it harder for them to "go off" for enough. This is the only card that may change; but I'm extremely interested in it.
3. Mistcutter Hydra - This is a great card against both control builds and tempo builds. Malleable use depending on how much the opponent has disrupted, and haste.
4. Chameleon Colossus - Now in the board. Great for control (as Cavern always works on it), great against any deck with black (Pod, Rock, Jund, etc.) and can be HUGE quick.
5. Silklash Spider - Added in what was Polukrano's space. It's just really effective flyer removal. It also works against Twin (if they make 999 Pestermites; you kill them all).
This sideboard is built because of the way the deck matches up to the meta. The deck is highly favored in many match-ups and has only a few decks that it struggles against. These decks include control builds (UWR Control, UW Control, Scapeshift builds on the control side, UR Delver) and fast combo builds (Storm, Twin, Goyro's Vengeance...) (as well as some very heavy flier builds). Match ups like Pod, Rock, Jund, Affinity, Hatebearers, Tron, Tarmo Twin, Boggles, etc. that run off of creature-based damage as their main win-con require almost no sideboard (as this deck is heavily favored against them). There are a few additional "functions" that can be difficult (unblockable in infect, boggles, and/or Merfolk) but the overall match up is not one we have difficulties.
Given that we only have to focus on a few "types" of decks and "functions" that we have to side against, the board focuses on these match-ups. I will be providing a "siding template" with the third set of testing results to show how I typically side against each match up (and why).
Removal / Interaction @Koperbox and @Pantaloons
You guys had a really great discussion! You both made some astoundingly good points. Pantaloons; your deck list is an interesting one. It's interesting to see the changes you've made as well. Where you able to test a significant amount of games with both? What were your findings? Your discussion (and watching Reid Duke's standard performance at the Invitational) made me think about the potential of getting a small amount of removal into my main deck for game one (as there is plenty for games two and three).
In terms of removal, I can only speak for the Elf Version. While I haven't found a strong necessity in game one for removal (and I promise I've tested the deck "realistically"); but that's no reason to avoid it if it can be added. It is extremely important that we understand the differences between each version of Green Devotion so it make sense when we make generalized statements, discuss match-ups, card choices, etc. I fear that sometimes my testing results may mislead many of the players playing the Primal Command versions of the deck (as they tend to play differently against a few different match-ups). I love this primer for the very reason that I've learned so many important facts about the other versions daily. Fortunately for discussion, many of the match-ups follow somewhat similar lines for all of the devotion decks.
The elf version of green devotion excels with its speed, explosiveness, and ability to generate card advantage. It is meant overwhelm the opponent regardless of their availability of disruption. It does so, however, at the loss of interaction with the opponent. This is a very important weakness that must be accounted for. While fortunately it can side in strong interaction for games 2 and 3; game one should still have as much interaction as possible without effecting the purpose/speed of the deck. Fortunately for us, WOTC has recently printed some AMAZING permanents that allow us to interact through permanents (Cavern of Souls, Polukranos, Silklash, Ezuri (Regenerate), Sarhkhan Vol (steal) Domri Rade (fight) etc.. While these are amazing choices; it is not nearly as interactive as versions running 4 Primal Commands, Main Board Paths, Beast Within main, Plow Under, multiple 1-ofs and Chords, etc.
Because of it's lack of a large amount of "general" interaction; the deck must be VERY fast. This is a basic truth of any "aggro/combo" deck. If it wasn't, it could not win against fast combo decks with any consistency in game one. It must also have ample card draw or it would not hold up to decks with heavy amounts of removal/board wipes/disruption. Two non-interactive "combo" decks tend to race each-other in game one; so any "combo-esq" devotion deck has to be able to win by turn 4 consistently (with the reasonable possibility of turn 3 wins without disruption). Fortunately, the elf version can do this which allows it to win game one even against the fastest of combo decks.
As an example. In my last game one against Storm, I started turn 3 with a board consisting of a Forest enchanted with Utopia Sprawl, a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and an Elvish Archdruid (so not the greatest of starts...). By the attack phase, however, I had a 6/6 Coiling Oracle with haste and trample, a 6/6 Elvish Visionary with trample and haste, a 7/7 Ezuri with trample and haste, and a 12/12 Genesis Hydra with haste. This was 31 damage and was enough for lethal. The next turn the Storm player almost assuredly would have won. For anyone who would like a "step by step" explanation of how I got there; I'm happy to PM you. I can put it here...but I just didn't want to take up too much space within the primer/discussion. This just seemed like a good example from my most recent testing of why a deck like this must have both ample card draw and speed if it has no interaction. I have literally dozens of such interactions/games/game states if anyone would like a list of them to get a sense of how the deck works...but there is no need to bore you all with them
Of course most match ups go past turn 3, and most fair match ups play out quite differently; but this was just to illustrate a deck without heavy interaction can (and sometimes must) win against such decks. And of course the side board has to have good interaction for any match ups/cards that could benefit easily from it in games 2 and 3.
Having said this, based on your discussion (and Reid Duke's performance at the Invitational), I made the following changes to my main board:
1. Added One Domri Rade - Domri Rade is a really interesting idea. It's one of the planeswalkers I really haven't tested much. It always seemed a little "slow"; but thinking about it...it does offer some interesting effects. The "fight" ability is as good as removal for green decks...and lord knows I love card draw With Genesis Hydra he gets that much better (make a 6/6 Hydra, grab Domri, use him to destroy one of their creatures....I may have to try this despite not having Courser. A turn 2 Domri, drawing like crazy, off of a Wave he can be used to remove any problem creatures through his "fight" ability, or even possibly allowing us to give everyone haste and trample (although this would require the game went on to turn 6+. In a very "cute" way, he also can be used to help remove pesky flyers via his "fight" ability. Obviously it will take a lot more testing; but it is at least more promising than I had initially given it credit for.
2. Currently playing 2-3 Main Board Genesis Hydra - I'm beginning to REALLY like this card. It's crazily powerful and may end up being a better fit in a Genesis Wave deck than Chord of Calling is. It was nice to see Reid Duke playing a green devotion deck today in the Invitational running 4-Genesis Hydra...and the power the card can have. Of course, standard is a different beast altogether; but it was interesting to see the Genesis Hydra/Domri interaction on screen, and how effective the combo could be to remove a peskty creature...although it did make me want to play Nylea even more
The commentators also made some interesting points about his deck that follow ours (the posters on this primer) completely. They were saying how his deck was "better" than some of the other devotion decks (i.e. R/W, ones that are "all in" with BTE) because it can simply ramp into big creatures/win without a Nykthos. As Patrick Sullivan said, "Reid can do powerful things without Nykthos....and I've never seen that from green devotion..." He must not have seen this primer
3. Added Polukranos, World Eater to the Main Board - This was a very easy addition. Allows me to have an option to remove any truly pesky creatures. I've already used it to remove a Linvalla against Hatebearers, a Platinum Angel against Tron, as well as a Resto Angel vs. UWR Kiki-Control. Great Devotion card and added a facet to the deck I just didn't have before.
Adding both Polukranos and Domri has given me the ability to remove creatures in game one without slowing the deck down or reducing it's explosiveness. This was done purely based on the dicussion on this primer (and partially seeing Reid Duke's performance...but I don't know how much I would have noticed it without already being thinking about it, working on it, and testing it). This is just another reason I say THANK YOU to you guys for the great topics you discuss. I believe the deck is that much better than it was; and it wouldn't be without this primer. You guys/gals rock!
Summary and Testing Results
It's been awesome to see the FNM results, testing results, and other such results on here. Keep up the good work everyone! I just recently got on MTGO so I'm going to try to figure out how to play without "misclicks" etc. and play a daily or two next week if I can. Hopefully this will provide a little more insights/result information. It's great to see so many people playing devotion. As long as it keeps doing well in daily and tourneys; it should eventually become a viable archetype in Modern!
An aside on Tooth and Nail
@Swindley,
Sorry it took a little while to respond to your post about Tooth and Nail. I personally haven't tested Tooth and Nail much. I don't have any huge issues with the card; and it is nice to know that once you hit 9 mana that you have a pretty good chance of closing out the game I myself have found that I have really enjoyed "malleable" cards in devotion. Between Genesis Hydra, Genesis Wave, Chameleon Colossus, Kessig Wolf Run, Ezuri, Planeswalkers (who give you a couple choices, etc.) I like the cards that I can play different ways based on my game/board state and/or my availability of mana. I especially love the cards I can sink a TON of mana into (if I run into a scenario where I have 20+ available mana, I want to use it) but also allow me to cast them with only 6 mana. Basically, I like it when the deck is broken into the "engine" and the "sinks" because it allows you to always be able to play your cards no matter what the board position is. I can't tell you how many times I've cast Genesis Wave for X=4 to grab two lands an Arbor Elf and a Coiling Oracle (drawing a card). This instantly puts me in a far better position the next turn of having two additional devotion, two additional cards on board, and another card in hand...it's acts like a "5 for 1" in a way...Or a Genesis Hydra for X=2 to grab a Visionary, Oracle, or Arbor Elf to draw a card and up my devotion by 3...It changes everything even from a "poor" board state. This is the only explanation I can give for why I play Wave over Tooth and Nail. This also, however, is my preference in terms of play-style and my deck is built around such lines. A Tooth and Nail deck would look different.
I'm not entirely certain one choice is "better' than the other however. I haven't tested a Tooth and Nail version and have no idea how it performs vs. the current meta; so it would be disingenuous for me to say the Elf version is any "better". It's rare that I see things as "better" anyways (a deck is either competitive against the meta or its not...the rest boils down to playstyle and preference). All I can really do is say things I like about the deck, provide testing results, tips on how to play against certain decks, etc. Everyone has to choose the deck that fits their play-style and they feel is the most competitive.
I do, however, think the decks that run Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail are slightly different decks. Each can be taken advantage of differently. What I mean is that I don't think you can take the same deck and simply plug Tooth and Nail into the place of Genesis Wave or vice versa and try to compare them that way. One will always appear better than the other depending on the other cards in the deck. They require differing play styles, have slightly different functions, and require relatively different builds. Genesis Wave builds want far less non-permanent cards (where Tooth and Nail doesn't concern itself with this). Tooth and Nail wants creatures like Emrakul and Maybe Progenitus, etc. where Genesis Wave Versions tend to want creatures that can be cast outside of a Wave more easily as well. Tooth and Nail versions would much rather run Xenagod to give 1 big creature haste where Genesis Wave version may want Sarhkan Vol to give everyone haste. So even though they are very similar; they are also very different. This, however, is all "theory"
I think if I ran a "Tooth and Nail" version; I would probably run a strong amount of ramp and more "fatties" than I do now (like Emrakul, maybe Worldspine Wurm, etc.) because the fact that you can quickly put any creature directly into play from your hand is an important advantage you wouldn't want to give up. 7 mana is 1-turn quicker than 9 in most cases; and that can make all the difference. Tooth and Nail can be crazy without being Entwined. I would probably run a Garruk Caller of the Beasts (or two) as well as he kinda follows the same ideas you are trying to do and is GREAT card draw. It becomes more about cheating in fatties and less about building board states and overwhelming the opponent. It puts you in a slightly different place because you don't really care to hit 20+ mana because once you hit 7-9 your're great; but you also want to ramp to that 7-9 as quickly as possible so you can't skimp. I guess there would simply be less "engine" and more cards on the high and low ends. I haven't tested it; but I think I may probably run Summoner's Pact in the same build too. It fills in the need for more fatties without the need for a huge board like Chord. I feel like having Tooth and Nail and Garruk gives you the ability to put any creatures you want on the board (of course only green with Garruk...but Xenagos God counts...) so the second you have seven mana you would want to have your fattiest of fatties in your hand.
It's really interesting to think how devotion decks can take different lines. I am by no means an expert with Tooth and Nail, so the above are only ideas meant to kinda point out the idea that Genesis Wave and Tooth and Nail are not really "interchangeable" cards in the same deck. Both have merits and downsides and require slightly different "support" to flourish. Of course, the same could be said for Chord, Primal Command, etc. I personally prefer Genesis Wave; but I can totally understand those who prefer Tooth and Nail and I wouldn't be surprised if a Tooth and Nail deck could be just as competitive. I just haven't tested it. I'd love to hear more about your testing results and would be extremely interested to see how a Tooth and Nail "version" of devotion evolves into a competitive build!
I have also been trying a pet card of mine Raise the Alarm in the deck. It is a instant for Grim Lavamancer food, Snapcaster Mage flashbacks, and Delver of Secrets flips and it helps with Liliana of the Veil and other sacrifice effects to protect our beaters. I will keep everyone posted. I am starting a testing session this evening so I will post how all of my testing goes. Let me know how you feel about Raise the Alarm and Telling Time.
Very cool list! I love to see people who run their own signature builds of WUR/Jeskai Delver. I have been testing a bit with Steel of the Godhead as well. Must be the collective conscience :). I never thought of adding Judge's Familiar with it as well though. That is a really good idea. I will have to tinker with that a little bit. Thanks for posting the list.
I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck. If there's anything I or our little community can do to help; let me /us know. And if we're being honest, I don't think there's any doubt you would have won the GP. :).
Hope things fair better this week.
That is awesome! And the way you provide actual results, card specific discussion, and match by match discussion is so amazingly helpful. Congrats on your great results!
I totally agree with you about Young Pyromancer. I just don't get it in these decks. I understand how it works, but 1/1 tokens just don't seem powerful enough. Especially when you have access to Geist of Saint Traft.
I have been working with some spicey stuff just to see if the deck can be improved. I have played around with Swerve, Steel of the Godhead, Telling Time. Nothing has really stuck yet, but I have added a second copy of Boros Charm. I think it is very powerful right now. It gives the reach we need and protects our threats.
I would love to see you get a win with the list at GP Madrid. If the meta stays somewhat similar (although I'm not sure what the meta is overseas), I think this deck is a good choice in most large fields. Best of luck!
On Magus of the Moon
I did have two Magus of the Moon in the sideboard for a while; but often found that the decks that it really hosed (Junk, Rock, Pod, etc.) were matches I already have a great match up against. And control (where I REALLY wanted them); over half the time they run Lightning Bolt; so he was dead relatively quickly. I did, however, only run it for about 40-50 matches; so I can't say I tested it extensively. I would LOVE to hear more about Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon and how it effects match-ups.
On Nylea's Presence
I so badly want to play Nylea's Presence over Abundant Growth. It allows both Arbor Elf and Nissa Worldwaker to untap Nykthos. I just don't know if the extra colorless mana throws off the sequencing of the deck. There are many games where I feel as though I would need the extra mana...very tough decision that is going to take a LOT of testing. My gut tells me I have to stick with Abundant Growth...my heart wants to so badly to play with Nylea's Presence.
On Sideboard
I still don't think my sideboard is quite there. I just don't "feel" right. Like there is something out there I'm missing. It's really difficult to side with the Elf Version because a huge advantage of the deck is its crazy speed and "overwhelming nature"; so you want to take as little of that away as possible while still hating the deck you are playing against. I'm still not entirely happy with the board, but I will continue to test new cards until I feel like I've "got there". OF course, boards always change (and will continue to forever); but it's important that the "core" of the board get to a point where I feel like the perfect cards are coming in and out against the toughest match-ups. The toughest match ups by far are the slower blue-based decks; which makes me want to play 4 Caverns and go beatdown...but that may be too simple. Again, gonna take more testing.
Current Main Board Changes
Since the last set of testing matches; I have made three changes to the deck. I can't guarantee that they make the deck better; but I wanted to try them out; so I did. I'm all about trying things to see if they work, but I traditionally do it only 1-card at a time (i.e. I will only switch out 1-card out at a time for another...test a bunch...pick the card I prefer...then switch out another card...) Anywho, here are the changes:
a. The first was switching out the Chord of Calling's for Genesis Hydra's. Genesis Hydra tends to be a little more aggressive than Chords; which follows the line of this deck. It also essentially "draws a card" (and plays it!)...as was said before it basically has "cascade"...and card/board advantage is a big part of this version. It also adds two+ devotion (it's own devotion plus the devotion of what it "grabs") to the board rather quickly. I found myself "Chording" for 1-3 to grab either a "draw card" or "ramp card" a majority of the time; so I figured I'd give it a try here. It's been extremely promising. The fact that it can grab planeswalkers was something I didn't even think about up front; but it has been a huge benefit. There are definite cons however. You don't always get exactly what you are looking for (i.e. sometimes I want a "draw elf" and only hit a Utopia Sprawl or Arbor Elf, etc.). Not having Chord of Calling does make me weary to only play one Ezuri, Renegade Leader and one Craterhoof Behemoth (however both tend to win off of a Genesis Wave a good portion of the time). It will take far more testing to determine which is better vs. the other; but I have been extremely happy with how versatile and powerful the Genesis Hydra has been in this version of the deck.
As an aside, I added another Cavern of Souls. While the fact that Genesis Hydra can be "uncounterable" is a big positive against control decks vs. Chord; it's not the entire reason I added another Cavern.
b. I added a Chameleon Colossus in place of one of the Primeval Titan. I love the idea that it is another elf, and it's activated ability basically forces the opponent to block him or die most games. That, and the pro-black has been a noticeable advantage. 4-CMC is a good place for this deck too. Prime Time is a HUGE card in this deck, however (as it grabs Kessig Wolf Run and/or Nykthos if needed)...so I have to be sure only running 2 is enough. It's been very good, however, so it may stay in the main-board and/or I may end up adding 1 or 2 to the sideboard if need be.
c. The final change was adding a third Cavern of Souls to the deck. It just destroys control decks; and with the addition of another potential "elf" win-con and replacing two "spells" with a "creature" (Chords to Hydras) it felt like a good fit. That, and the only blue I splash is for Coiling Oracle which can also be generated with Cavern of Souls...so there are a lot of factors that help allow this.
With that said, however, here is the current list:
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Cavern of Souls
7x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Breeding Pool
Creatures
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Coiling Oracle
3x Elvish Archdruid
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Chameleon Colossus
2x Primeval Titan
2x Genesis Hydra
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
Spells
3x Genesis Wave
Planeswalkers
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Nissa, Worldwaker
1x Sarkhan Vol
2x Beast Within
2x Boil
2x Combust
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Elderscale Wurm
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Chord of Calling
** This sideboard is the newest version of my sideboard. The sideboard utilized in this testing session had two Choke, and no Thrun, the Last Troll or Chord of Calling. Chord is meant to act as a "second copy" of any of the 1-of creatures that is best against the match-up. **
Testing Results (Set Two)
The first few match ups are decks I had played before (and simply tried again with the small changes); so there may not be a ton of new and useful information there. I did, however, try to play some different decks this time around so that I could see how the deck reacts to differing match ups.
Vs. Pod (6&2) - Pre-Board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
Haven't played this a ton since the last set because there didn't seem like much to worry about. Was a little easier this time around; but that could literally just be better draws. Basically, if they don't combo off rather quickly, they lose. They just don't have enough removal to deal with this deck. The one game they did win they hit the Spike Feed/Archangel Combo (with two Noble Hierarchs). I did try out a Polukranos, World Eater post-board in this match-up (I've just added it given the rise in Lingering Souls) and it actually did quite well. I can definitely see the appeal of Bonfire of the Damned (which would be even more powerful although doesn't provide the body or devotion).
Vs. Rock (6&2) - Pre-Board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
Tried this again because it is maintaining popularity. This is quite possibly the easiest match up we have. I was fortunate to draw into a Chameleon Colossus in two match ups as well (which can quickly end the game if they have no green blockers. If Pod, Rock, and Jund continue to be popular in the meta; I may even add a second to the board (however I have to be sure that it is powerful in other matches as well). It still can beat us, however. If they get a turn two Dark Confidant they can go toe to toe with our card advantage (especially if they go into a turn three Liliana). But very few decks are great against a turn 2 Bob and Turn 3 Liliana! The only two games Rock beat me were with a turn 2 Dark Confidant.
Vs. UW Control (7&5) - Pre-Board 3&3 - Post-Board 4&2
I purposefully built this deck because I figured it would be the toughest deck for me outside of Twin. I chose the deck on MTG Top 8 that runs 4 Supreme Verdict, 4 Path to Exile, 4 Cryptic Commands, Detention Spheres, Mana Leaks, and Spell Snares....basically the most disruption I could find. And this match-up is a little tougher. Its top end is planeswalkers (Elspeth, Knight Errant, Gideon Jura, and Jace Beleren) ; so they can also kind of fight the card advantage as well.
On area that I did want to point out is that several of you had discussed the use of Boil and Choke. This deck runs four of each Seachrome Coast, four Celestial Colonnade and three Mystic Gate's...all of which avoid both cards. So you guys were absolutely right...while Boil and Choke may be amazing against decks like Twin, Scapeshift, UR Aggro, etc. (who play a lot of fetches and shocks) there are control decks that they are dead to (like this one).
And I was right It is a very tough match up. Just as with many other control decks; Cavern of Souls is AMAZING. An early Cavern can cripple them (as it effectively shuts off 50% of their hand in most cases. I did find Genesis Hydra to be good in this match up (as once cast you have two creatures they didn't counter and have to deal with...one of which is generally 5/5 or higher). I honestly think that my single best weapon against control may be Cavern of Souls...even more so than any current sideboard options. Beast Within, however, seemed especially good here. I had two different match-ups post-board where the opponent tapped out (or left only 1 mana up) for a Gideon Jura under the impression that I could only attack Gideon that I simply end of turn cast Beast Within to turn Gideon into a 3/3 and won the next turn. It's no surprise that Beast Within is good; but this is just another area where it can be utilized. It also allowed me to bring back permanents like Garruk or Prime Time that had been Detention Sphere'd away to be triggered again. Such a versatile spell that is certainly staying in the board.
This is still not a match I am entirely comfortable with. Although I feel like Anger of the Gods may be a slightly better removal against us, Supreme Verdict is still powerful (and twice I had to play around it by not casting something that I would immediately cast in other match ups). Between that and all of the removal/counter magic; these games are not nearly the same as other match ups. It still about board presence and overwhelming them; but it's far more about picking your spots. For turns one and two (and sometimes three if they started slow or their second land was a Celestial Colonnade and came in tapped) I generally went as quickly as I could, ramping and drawing as fast as I could until they built up the mana to begin disrupting things. After that, you have to slow WAY down and begin to chip away and wait for them to cast things. Obviously, hitting Cavern of Souls changes the game substantially; but without it you still can build a board.
Also, we should thank our lucky stars that Baneslayer Angel doesn't have protection from Red....without Combust they would have easily won two more matches post board than they did. Combust has turned out to pretty strong flyer hate (as most good flyers are in those two colors). We all tend to play Red too (because of Kessig Wolf Run); so I think it is a card we can all use to our advantage!
Vs. GW Hatebears 7&3 - Pre-Board 3&2 - Post-Board 4&1
This deck is an interesting match. It seems like whoever gets the early lead maintains it. If they get an early Linvala, Keeper of Silence it can be very difficult (as she cuts off Arbor Elf). They also have enough flyers (Linvala, Resto Angel, Aven Mindscensor, and Flickerwisp) to do lethal damage if we don't build the board to lethal quickly enough. Interestingly, both Genesis Wave and Genesis Hydra both simply "reveal" cards off the top of your deck, so you are not actually searching your deck when casting them (so they aren't affected by hate that deals with this). This started getting me thinking about taking out fetches altogether and running fetch-hate (the recent Root Maze idea is an interesting one)...but I digress...
In this match-up, it is important that we get out quick and don't keep slow hands. A lot of their most powerful cards are 3-4 drops; so if they don't get a turn 1 Aether Vial often times we will build the board more quickly than them. This, however, is one of the few decks that can just fly over our board; so we have to still be fast even if they only have two creatures to our 4-5. Fortunately, their removal is minimal (basically just Path to Exile in game one).
Sarkhan Vol was suprisingly good in this match-up. I had one game where I simply stole their Linvala and "Kessig'd" her to fly over their blade splicer and token to win the match. Most match ups aren't ready for a creature to be stolen; and this has been an ability of Sarkhan's that I have ended up using more than I originally anticiptated. I'm very heavily leaning towards adding another one to the deck; but I have to be careful as Sarkhan Vol is only truly powerful if you already have a board of a few creatures (and isn't poweful on his own as both Nissa and Garruk can be).
This does make me wish for a way to deal with multiple Flyers. This deck shows how many playable efficient flyers are in white alone (this isn't including delver, v.clique, lingering souls, stormbreath, etc.). Between Flickerwisp, Restoration Angel, Linvala, and Keeper of Silence; they quickly have 3-6 damage in the air. While Combust is great; I really would like to have an option to take care of multiple Flyers at once. A long while back, I remember playing Silklash Spider and absolutely loving it; so I may try it again here. I'll be looking into sideboard flyer hate immediately!
Vs. U/R Storm (8&4) - Pre-Board 3&3 - Post-Board 5&1
I watned to play this a little more than some others simply because I haven't played a ton of quick combo decks (like Ad Nauseum, etc.) Pre-board this match up literally came down to who was on the play. I kind of expected this with two quick decks with little disruption; but sometimes I'm surprised by match-ups...this wasn't one of those times. Both decks tend to win by turn 3 or 4 if completely uninterrupted; and in these few cases that is exactly what happened Obviously, there can certainly be scenarios where one or both of us don't draw a good hand or top-deck poorly; it just did happen in these six games. Post-board it was a little different. We both slowed ourselves down a bit; but they seemed to slow themselves more. Again, being able to turn a Pyromancer's Ascension into a 3/3 creature really slows them down (thank you lord for Beast Within!)...but also Nature's Claim made it easy to make sure they never had an "active' asscension.
This is one of the few match-ups (outside of graveyard decks and mill decks) that I also sided in Wheel of Sun and Moon; and it's really good here! I actually Genesis Hydra'd into it; and the opponent instantly lost the ability to use both his Ascensions as well as his Past in Flames. I hadn't even thought of that when I put the card in the deck (it was more for Living End and random Mill decks); but I was pleasantly surprised.
Vs. Infect 6&2 - Pre-board 3&1 - Post-Board 3&1
This match-up is almost entirely based on whether they get a quick flying and/or unblockable creature. They don't tend to move quickly enough with the creatures that can be "chumped"; however if they get a turn two Blighted Agent its damn near impossible for me to win (both losses had a turn two agent). It's a much tougher match up than I thought it would be. I seemed to "eek out" wins (having 8-9 infect on the turn I won). Not entirely sure this is a "good" match up based on this set of testing due to this (as it just as easily could have been 3&5 as it was 6&2 due entirely to two Genesis Wave's and a Polukranos.
Vs. Affinity 3&1 - Pre-Board 1&1 - Post-Board 2&0
Only played a few games against Affinity (as I've played a lot against them in the past). It's historically not been too tough of a match. I just wanted to see if one Creeping Corrosion is enough. It appears to be.
Summary
While the record was 43 - 19 (69%) this is pretty darn close to the averages I've seen with this deck (which has been around 68%)...with the few matches that get "stolen" with Waves as well as the few infect games that could have gone the other way...the results could have fallen a little lower than traditional just as easily. This is also a smaller set than the last one; but big enough to take a little info from.
The deck is still weak to control-oriented decks/cards (both blue and white). I really would like to find a few sideboard cards (or even maybe some "set" of cards) that "flips" the match up. Whether it be another Cavern and 4 Mistcutter Hydras, or something crazy like that...if the board could make these match-ups super favorable while still being "fast" this deck would be in a VERY good spot in the meta. The deck is just so powerful against "creature-based" decks like Rock, Pod, Junk, Jund, etc. and is fast enough to fight with and race decks like Boggles, Infect, and Affinity that if decks like Twin, Scapeshift, UW Control, and UWR Control were post-board favorable match-ups; this could be a deck that could really compete. I like Boil for Twin, UR Aggro, Scapeshift, and Merfolk; but you are right that it's not a great answer to UW and UWR control builds in most cases.
So, there's more to do...but there always is! I like where the deck is at now, however; and the only real question is whether to play Genesis Hydra or Chord of Calling. I don't have a definitive "one is superior to the other" answer yet (going to take more games where I draw it and write down the potential differences). Right now there are more checks in the Genesis Hydra box; but it's far too early to know with any certainty.
Cards I Still Want to Try
While of course decks will always see changes (as new cards come out, meta's shift, new ideas arise, etc.); there are still a few cards that are high on my list and/or that I feel could be good in the deck. The top choices are:
1. Nylea, God of the Hunt - a 4-drop that most of the time will be a 6/6 indestructible creature who also gives my creatures trample (especially important if Chameleon Colossus and Genesis Hydra stay in the deck) and can pump at instant speed if I have any mana "left over"...sounds so good on paper. Have to try it somewhere.
2. Mistcutter Hydra - I use Cavern of Souls to great success; but it couldn't hurt to have another strong card against Blue. Especially one with haste and Pro-Blue.
3. Bonfire of the Damned - Ridiculously powerful spell that would also deal with flyers...not sure how well I'd like it given all of the card draw in the deck (as this reduces the amount of times it would be cast at "Miracle" cost), but a neat idea for at minimum the sideboard.
4. Silklash Spider - This is a GREAT flying hater; and can even be great against twin (even 100 flyers die because he does the same amount of damage to all flyers. I will be testing this immediately.
5. Root Maze - I honestly think this may be something that could help in my tougher match ups. It would probably require me to remove my Misty Rainforests and play more duals; but I have Arbor Elf, Nissa, and Garruk untapping things. Would be interesting to see how this effects control match ups (especially UWR that runs a good amount of fetches).
There's always going to be things to try. I'm even toying with another Chameleon Colossus in the baord. That, and we have new spoilers coming!!! Hopefully there is some amazing Temur cards that may fit perfectly in here. A boy can dream!
Interactions and Funny Idea
I have had a few people ask me to provide some examples of how the deck's "synergy" works. I have written down several different game states, interactions, etc. (i.e. "stringing" Genesis Waves, Genesis Hydra into Sarkhan to attack for 10, showing how quickly you can draw and build devotion from "nothing", etc.). I didn't write it out here because this post would take up a full page or more; but I'd he happy to do so if anyone would like to see them (either via PM's and/or publicly on here if preferable to many).
And to end this post, a fun idea...so I have a "spoiler season sickness". I LOVE to try to jam as many new cards into my decks as quickly as I can when I see them. 95% of the time, the new card is worse than the card it would replace (and the decklist stays exactly the same). My first crazy idea for Tarkir is...Dragon Throne of Tarkir! Add another Genesis Hydra, to the deck....Cast a Hydra for X=6, grab a Dragon Throne of the top...the very next turn, my elves are all +6/+6 and trample for the remainder of the game (assuming I pay the 3 to equip and 2 to activate each turn and BOTH the Hydra and the Throne stay around)!...so powerful...and sounds so easy
Hope this help! Keep up the great work guys!