Unfortunately, in this format in general, and this deck specifically, it is bad. Unplayably bad IMO... For the reason being, we have 8 3/3 bodies for 2, and a 4/4 thats uncounterable and semi-disruption proof... Plus, our other 2 drops either grow or replace themselves. All these are more impactful and more positively relevant to your strategy. If thats not enough, a lot of lists are running things that gain them life already... Scavenging Ooze, Archangel of Thune, Trostani, Bow of Nylea are some examples...
I definitely see your point about Unflinching Courage opening you up for a 2 for 1. That risk is probably worth the potential award, especially if you manage to stick it on a Smiter...
EDIT: For the record, I do not run anything in my mainboard that allows me to gain life. I have 2 Scavenging Ooze in the board, but they are there more for hate purposes than to gain life... I feel as though the only matchups where lifegain is really relevant are G/R aggro and RDW, and my build has a strong matchup there already. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
Here's a good debate point for discussion: Against other aggro decks like RDW or RG Aggro, is Unflinching Courage or Centaur Healer the better card? Unflinching Courage is great if you stick it to a creature and attack in for repeated lifegain, but Centaur Healer immediately gains you life and is a 3/3 body to boot. They're both at the same CMC so they likely compete for the same SB slot since we've got a pretty good aggro matchup already, so which one should be run over the other?
I have found through fairly extensive testing that the RDW matchup is 70/30 or better in our favor and the R/G matchup is 65/35 or so, again in our favor... As such, I feel that dedicating slots in the board for this matchup is not good, unless you happen to have extra slots available or your meta is heavy in those archtypes...
For the purposes of debating the cards you brought up, if I had to choose between the 2, I'd probably pick Unflinching Courage. Mainly because you can stick it onto a bigger beatstick like Smiter and avoid getting chumped. Also, if your opp decides they want to kill it, it probably ends up being a 3 for 2 in your favor plus whatever life you gain also. I do prefer my Smiters with trample though (used to run 4 Rancor prior to rotation)...
Thats pretty interesting. Its also kind of ironic how they "stumble" across a cure like that... yes, pun intended. I actually expected some sort of facetiousness like the cure is money and Magic Johnson is living proof or something like that, although my sense of humor may be a little twisted at times...
Seriously, though... anti-fungal foot cream? Who knew that HIV could be treated like a fungus? I wonder if the people who discovered this will earn a Nobel prize out of it...
I'm giving Pharika's Mender some thought. She's a really bad Eternal Witness but she does recycle some important stuff (Gray Merchant of Asphodel mainly, but also DesDemons and Reapers if needed) and adds a kinda relevant body to the count.
Whip of Erebos is a much better option IMO for this recursion effect... Plus it is reusable and gives your guys lifelink. Additionally, it pairs well with Gray as from a devotion standpoint as well as anything with an ETB trigger, such as Lifebane Zombie or Shadowborn Demon.
I deal with the heavybreather dragon using Mizz Mortars, which also works well against Blood Baron. These are the two most problematic creatures to deal with on the Battlefield. There are other options in green though, with the most effective appearing to be Arbor Colossus. This guy can take on both the dragon and the baron, plus the monstrous trigger effect outright kills dragon so you could potentially kill 2 or more with your one Colossus. Its easy to see why people consider this card to be among the best 5 drop green creatures around. You could deal with dragon via Polukranos and as a sidenote, if you happen to have a Bow of Nylea in play, declaring an attack with Polukranos and then activating Monstrous effectively gives you a nearly 1-sided sweeper as all you'd have to do is ping everything for 1.
A couple of questions/observations: regarding the inclusion of Gyre Sage vs. Sylvan Caryatid in an aggro environment... It does nothing until you've evolved it as far as mana production, as well as it has just 2 toughness and no hexproof to protect it from being fried, which can also be done in response to the evolve trigger or the bow activation. Also, Gyre Sage only taps for G. What makes the Sage a better card to run?
Also, Boon Satyr does seem really strong vs. control but it seems really weak against anything else. Aside from flashing in post wrath, what does this card do that justifies it being a 4 of or even being in the maindeck to begin with?
Are you suggesting that nobody ever gets more of a raise than inflation? Because that's just patently silly. I got a 33% raise after one year at my last job. It was called a promotion.
A promotion is not a raise... A raise means you are doing the same job for more where a promotion would be doing a different job for a different rate of pay. It is an increase in comparison to what your old job paid, but it is not a raise...
Hmm... How do you envision a tempo approach of W/g going? I always envision tempo as a strategy that wants blue's bounce/counter/tap effects.
I don't think tempo is really a feasible option, because there aren't really enough elements of control available to utilize for it. My understanding of tempo is that it is aggro with some control/disruptive attributes.
Aggro to me at its core is somewhat of a tempo-based strategy, because it is imperative to maintain a good tempo/pace to the game in order to win. This is what I had in mind when I put my list together, which is why I choose to run as many optimally redundant cards as I do... I think having tools such as Boros Charm and Advent of the Wurm is what really gives the deck enough reach to offset the disruption of control decks... Worst case scenario is a sweeper resetting the board, and a close second would be lifegain; these are like timewalks for the control opponent. Aside from that, it is important to have a gameplan in mind to combat an opponents other stall tactics such as Omenspeaker, Sylvan Caryatid, or bigger threats such as Blood Baron... Boros Charm is the best card in my deck because it allows everything else to be more effective against these tactics, save for maybe the Baron...
Ok when I mention answers for him, I mean cards that are actually played and are not absurdly bad Gaze of Granite
Polukranos, World Eater doesn't really handle him but keeps him in check until you can handle him.
FYI, although I am not choosing to run Gaze, there are quite a few people in the Rock thread advocating it as a 3 or 4 of... It isn't optimal, but you didn't specify that in the post I responded to... I do appreciate the clarification.
As far as Polukranos goes, it definitely handles BB. It is a 5/5 whereas BB is a 4/4... Last I checked, a bigger creature generally kills the smaller creature. Of course, you'll say you meant that keeping BB in check just means preventing him from being active in combat scenarios which does effectively handle him... Unless you're hooked on that Common Core fuzzy math where 3x4 can equal 11 so long as your explanation is reasonable...
<- dumb guy over here. I failed to mention this is only after a well timed Trait Doctoring HOOHA!
Everyone makes mistakes... I like that Trait Doctoring nombo too
EDIT: as an aside, I did a little research... I found 150 different decklists which contain black in this "established competitive" forum. Of the 150 lists, 122 ran a card called Thoughtseize for an 81.333% TS-decklist ratio... This runs the entire spectrum of aggro, midrange and control builds...
Just sayin...
The real question is can Granite be a good enough replacement for mutilate. With dual lands in the format its not unthinkable to have 4 swamps on T6 or 3 on 4. In GoG terms you can wipe for 1 on T4 or 3 on T6. Is that going to be enough to survive against the aggro/midrange decks? It sounds quirky but maybe two darksteel ingots? It's a cheap way to get to GoG faster AND it survives.
Also whats the most realistic way we're going to be dealing with BBoV?
Sylvan Caryatid is cheaper than Ingot and while its dying to Gaze may appear as a liability at first, when you realize this card helps you to survive until you can Gaze, it is abundantly clear that your choice card for this is not Darksteel Ingot...
As for BBoV, Thoughtseize is a great option, and most builds tend to run some Polukranos or Scavenging Ooze which both have the potential to defeat this threat... Boon Satyr can also do this, and has the benefit of being a surprise response to BB turning sideways...
Quote from Dumbteleologisist »
BBOV is immune to Demon. They would just gain 4 forever if you block.
Not sure what you meant by this, but Demon can't block BB as BB does have pro-black, and if BB is ever capable of blocking Demon, its probably time to pack it in and concede...
What do you take, and why? Now you're at 16 and we don't have Mutilate any longer. It's T5 before you can kill a 2-drop with Gaze of Granite.
Might as well mention here and now that for all this RDW nonsense, I have yet to see a thread for it in the competitive section... Are you sure this deck will be a prevalent threat or are you just snake-oiling?
Also, after the briefest of recons concerning RDW, I see that the prevailing opinion is that Firefist is run in place of the Ash Zealot...
Additionally, most of the rock builds are utilizing Sylvan Caryatid, which would allow you to Gaze for 2 on turn 4 potentially...
As for your scenario, what I choose would really depend on what I had in my hand at the time... I may have the Caryatid, which would allow me to block anything but Phoenix. Or consider that a lot of people like playing Scavenging Ooze and that may potentially be in your hand. In the Caryatid scenario, I would take Lightning Strike, in the Ooze scenario, I'd take Phoenix. If you happen to be holding both Ooze and Caryatid, Phoenix again. If you happen to have the Gaze with the Caryatid, Lightning Strike is the call.
One more mention: this deck runs 4 shocklands and every recent list I have seen has double or better that amount of basic swamps so it is statistically more likely to have a swamp as opposed to a shockland... Plus if you happen to have both in your opening hand, its likely smarter to play the swamp turn 1 if you really want to TS then. Or you could play Tomb tapped and TS them a little later in the game...
Anyway, you are still having some comprehension difficulty... I said TS was the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed, not that it was the best discard spell ever printed... Kind of a different statement from the one you miscomprehended...
Quote from RedKid43 »
That Rock list from Worlds in 2008?! 2008? THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO.
Another one that can't read properly!!! If you had, you would see I was linking to those articles as a rebuttal to another ignorant implication of what sort of deck TS fits into...
Quote from rcwraspy »
One of them is that Thoughtseize is an ACTIVELY BAD card against decks packed with redundancy. His example is 40 Kalonian Tuskers. You strip one, they just play another.
Its not... TS in this scenario fulfills the same purpose as any removal spell would. Based on this logic applied to kill spells in the same scenario, you kill one and they just play another... Does that mean removal spells are also "actively bad"?
Yep. Biased towards using the best available cards to construct a deck...
Surely, if I am wrong, someone should be able to quantitatively demonstrate that and explain what would be a better option... So far, nothing but weak hair-splitting and some incorrect theories that I am wrong simply because I haven't read some article or my line of reasoning doesn't 100% agree with yours...
So, why can't anyone do this? Shouldn't be that difficult, unless...
I happen to be right on this one...:nod:
Quote from rcwraspy »
I understand it completely. But I also understand that your blind championing of it without actually taking its nuances into account means you don't actually understand the "how and when."
Clearly you do not understand or comprehend my claims. Not to worry, though. I get that your comprehension must be questionable so if you choose to disagree, then go ahead... I'm done trying to convince an ignorantly stubborn horse to drink from the water that I showed you...
Unfortunately, in this format in general, and this deck specifically, it is bad. Unplayably bad IMO... For the reason being, we have 8 3/3 bodies for 2, and a 4/4 thats uncounterable and semi-disruption proof... Plus, our other 2 drops either grow or replace themselves. All these are more impactful and more positively relevant to your strategy. If thats not enough, a lot of lists are running things that gain them life already... Scavenging Ooze, Archangel of Thune, Trostani, Bow of Nylea are some examples...
I definitely see your point about Unflinching Courage opening you up for a 2 for 1. That risk is probably worth the potential award, especially if you manage to stick it on a Smiter...
EDIT: For the record, I do not run anything in my mainboard that allows me to gain life. I have 2 Scavenging Ooze in the board, but they are there more for hate purposes than to gain life... I feel as though the only matchups where lifegain is really relevant are G/R aggro and RDW, and my build has a strong matchup there already. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
I have found through fairly extensive testing that the RDW matchup is 70/30 or better in our favor and the R/G matchup is 65/35 or so, again in our favor... As such, I feel that dedicating slots in the board for this matchup is not good, unless you happen to have extra slots available or your meta is heavy in those archtypes...
For the purposes of debating the cards you brought up, if I had to choose between the 2, I'd probably pick Unflinching Courage. Mainly because you can stick it onto a bigger beatstick like Smiter and avoid getting chumped. Also, if your opp decides they want to kill it, it probably ends up being a 3 for 2 in your favor plus whatever life you gain also. I do prefer my Smiters with trample though (used to run 4 Rancor prior to rotation)...
Seriously, though... anti-fungal foot cream? Who knew that HIV could be treated like a fungus? I wonder if the people who discovered this will earn a Nobel prize out of it...
Whip of Erebos is a much better option IMO for this recursion effect... Plus it is reusable and gives your guys lifelink. Additionally, it pairs well with Gray as from a devotion standpoint as well as anything with an ETB trigger, such as Lifebane Zombie or Shadowborn Demon.
A couple of questions/observations: regarding the inclusion of Gyre Sage vs. Sylvan Caryatid in an aggro environment... It does nothing until you've evolved it as far as mana production, as well as it has just 2 toughness and no hexproof to protect it from being fried, which can also be done in response to the evolve trigger or the bow activation. Also, Gyre Sage only taps for G. What makes the Sage a better card to run?
Also, Boon Satyr does seem really strong vs. control but it seems really weak against anything else. Aside from flashing in post wrath, what does this card do that justifies it being a 4 of or even being in the maindeck to begin with?
A promotion is not a raise... A raise means you are doing the same job for more where a promotion would be doing a different job for a different rate of pay. It is an increase in comparison to what your old job paid, but it is not a raise...
I don't think tempo is really a feasible option, because there aren't really enough elements of control available to utilize for it. My understanding of tempo is that it is aggro with some control/disruptive attributes.
Aggro to me at its core is somewhat of a tempo-based strategy, because it is imperative to maintain a good tempo/pace to the game in order to win. This is what I had in mind when I put my list together, which is why I choose to run as many optimally redundant cards as I do... I think having tools such as Boros Charm and Advent of the Wurm is what really gives the deck enough reach to offset the disruption of control decks... Worst case scenario is a sweeper resetting the board, and a close second would be lifegain; these are like timewalks for the control opponent. Aside from that, it is important to have a gameplan in mind to combat an opponents other stall tactics such as Omenspeaker, Sylvan Caryatid, or bigger threats such as Blood Baron... Boros Charm is the best card in my deck because it allows everything else to be more effective against these tactics, save for maybe the Baron...
Somebody big (Reid Duke) apparently already did... Yet it still remains in 81.333% of lists running black in just our competitive discussion forum...
FYI, although I am not choosing to run Gaze, there are quite a few people in the Rock thread advocating it as a 3 or 4 of... It isn't optimal, but you didn't specify that in the post I responded to... I do appreciate the clarification.
As far as Polukranos goes, it definitely handles BB. It is a 5/5 whereas BB is a 4/4... Last I checked, a bigger creature generally kills the smaller creature. Of course, you'll say you meant that keeping BB in check just means preventing him from being active in combat scenarios which does effectively handle him... Unless you're hooked on that Common Core fuzzy math where 3x4 can equal 11 so long as your explanation is reasonable...
Everyone makes mistakes... I like that Trait Doctoring nombo too
EDIT: as an aside, I did a little research... I found 150 different decklists which contain black in this "established competitive" forum. Of the 150 lists, 122 ran a card called Thoughtseize for an 81.333% TS-decklist ratio... This runs the entire spectrum of aggro, midrange and control builds...
Just sayin...
Sylvan Caryatid is cheaper than Ingot and while its dying to Gaze may appear as a liability at first, when you realize this card helps you to survive until you can Gaze, it is abundantly clear that your choice card for this is not Darksteel Ingot...
As for BBoV, Thoughtseize is a great option, and most builds tend to run some Polukranos or Scavenging Ooze which both have the potential to defeat this threat... Boon Satyr can also do this, and has the benefit of being a surprise response to BB turning sideways...
Not sure what you meant by this, but Demon can't block BB as BB does have pro-black, and if BB is ever capable of blocking Demon, its probably time to pack it in and concede...
Might as well mention here and now that for all this RDW nonsense, I have yet to see a thread for it in the competitive section... Are you sure this deck will be a prevalent threat or are you just snake-oiling?
Also, after the briefest of recons concerning RDW, I see that the prevailing opinion is that Firefist is run in place of the Ash Zealot...
Additionally, most of the rock builds are utilizing Sylvan Caryatid, which would allow you to Gaze for 2 on turn 4 potentially...
As for your scenario, what I choose would really depend on what I had in my hand at the time... I may have the Caryatid, which would allow me to block anything but Phoenix. Or consider that a lot of people like playing Scavenging Ooze and that may potentially be in your hand. In the Caryatid scenario, I would take Lightning Strike, in the Ooze scenario, I'd take Phoenix. If you happen to be holding both Ooze and Caryatid, Phoenix again. If you happen to have the Gaze with the Caryatid, Lightning Strike is the call.
One more mention: this deck runs 4 shocklands and every recent list I have seen has double or better that amount of basic swamps so it is statistically more likely to have a swamp as opposed to a shockland... Plus if you happen to have both in your opening hand, its likely smarter to play the swamp turn 1 if you really want to TS then. Or you could play Tomb tapped and TS them a little later in the game...
Anyway, you are still having some comprehension difficulty... I said TS was the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed, not that it was the best discard spell ever printed... Kind of a different statement from the one you miscomprehended...
Another one that can't read properly!!! If you had, you would see I was linking to those articles as a rebuttal to another ignorant implication of what sort of deck TS fits into...
Its not... TS in this scenario fulfills the same purpose as any removal spell would. Based on this logic applied to kill spells in the same scenario, you kill one and they just play another... Does that mean removal spells are also "actively bad"?
Check your logic and consider the source...
Yep. Biased towards using the best available cards to construct a deck...
Surely, if I am wrong, someone should be able to quantitatively demonstrate that and explain what would be a better option... So far, nothing but weak hair-splitting and some incorrect theories that I am wrong simply because I haven't read some article or my line of reasoning doesn't 100% agree with yours...
So, why can't anyone do this? Shouldn't be that difficult, unless...
I happen to be right on this one...:nod:
Clearly you do not understand or comprehend my claims. Not to worry, though. I get that your comprehension must be questionable so if you choose to disagree, then go ahead... I'm done trying to convince an ignorantly stubborn horse to drink from the water that I showed you...
Flaming is against the rules.
-DarkRitual