Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
Data for this deck is going to be really tough to come by, no one in this thread seems to either be able to or have the time to compile a data set like what you're probably looking for. Not to mention no one can even agree on a build.
If you're going to tweak the list anyway, why get the data? It's only good for that 75 anyway. Why do you need the full 75 card list? You said yourself that you're going to tweak it anyway. Take the core of the deck and put some meat on it, be bold!
I put a Phyrexian Obliterator in my list because I know it'll scare the crap out of people. No one else is going to even test that.
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I think you have a it a bit backwards, if anything Shaman simply increases your chances of comboing turn 4 and turns every creature in your deck into a combo piece late game fitting the primary objective of the deck better than any card in those "flex slots". Shaman continues to spiral out of control post board vs. decks not looking to interact.
Shaman is at its worst vs. anything looking to grind that you can't necessarily toolbox against.
I stand by the card as a multiple in Bant lists as tutoring up Queller every turn can just bury a lot of decks.. as a 1-of in Abzan lists I'm honestly not a fan.
Reclamation Sage in the Eldritch Evolution builds is better than Qasali also because we can eldritch him to a 5 drop.
Someone try x2 Blood Moon in the side? Just thinking about play it in the side as I feel like are pretty good, and with the x1 Magus of the Moon the Valakut, Control and Tron matchup are a little better.
Also tried a version with colected company, in overall feels good (vs shadow and control is very good) but I have the impression that GWx Vizier or Bant Company is just a better Company deck than this. So right now I prefer the normal list.
I always preferred Blood Moon in the board of my Company list instead of addition copies of Magus.
Not sure what Company list you tried but GWx Vizier has terrible Shadow/Control MUs.
Saheeli was reasonable for me pre-shadow actually becoming dominant. My meta is relatively Midrange/Control dominant on top of Shadow, Dredge, Counters Company & Storm and Saheeli quickly went from medium to unplayable. I'd assume it's even worse in a field with a reasonable amount of Eldrazi Tron.
My main issue with more traditional Kiki Chord lists right now is just how simple it is for DS Decks to tear apart a 7 leaving you with uncastable chords or just irrelevant toolbox creatures and just run you over in the first 3-4 turns of a game. On top of that the deck isn't great against Ad Nauseam, Burn, Eldrazi Tron, Storm, Dredge, Titan decks or Tron.
To be 100% honest, I think the deck is pretty poorly positioned right now.
I know this is an old quote, Ludafish, but could you explain a bit more? I tend to think that the Burn and Eldrazi matchups are pretty good, DS is not nearly as bad is you imply, and most of the remainder (outside Titan, which will always be bad, and traditional Tron, which will also always be bad but isn't so popular right now) can be tuned for if you expect to see them.
If you're main decking Blessed Alliance your numbers are probably skewed in comparison to mine but my G1 win rate vs. Burn w/ list closer to Traditional Chord/Nahiri Chord was sub 30% on the draw/45% on the play and 45%/50% post board. Eldrazi Tron was pretty much 50% across the board. Death Shadow is as bad as I imply, game 1's were almost never in my favor with the exception of them seeing 0-1 pieces of disruption in the first 4 turns and post board was just as bad (have actual W%'s across variants at home that I can post later).
Anybody in here testing the Bant list (Queller/Reflector/Unified Will) with the minimal black splash for 1x Seer in the Main and 1x Pontiff in the board. A couple local guys put out articles around it in the last week:
Thought I'd post the list I've been playing/tweaking for a few weeks now. I unfortunately won't be making it out to any GPs or Opens for the remainder of the year, but wanted to share for feedback.
A couple of notes:
0x Path MD - My win rate with Kiki Company lists drastically increased after replacing MD Paths with Reflector Mages. Company hits are better, additional bodies contribute towards Chord in MUs where Path is irrelevant and get in there for Gavony beats.
4x Grove of the Burnwillows - I've been so happy with this switch. I'm 26-8 vs. Death Shadow variants since late May and the number of games I've lost due to opponents gaining an additional point of life here and there are almost non-existent that I've encountered. Additionally, my Burn MU feels better than ever..
Hallowed Fountain / Steam Vents - I'm still unsure on this one. I have 16 permanents capable of producing a Blue, but there have been times where I want a Fountain on 2 to play out Voice into a Reflector Mage on 3 or a 3rd fetchable Red source to hard cast Kiki-Jiki. Both lands do contribute to unkeepable hands more often than I like as having a Green producing land on T1 is what this deck is all about.
3x Unified Will SB - These filled slots where'd I'd played Blood Moon / Blessed Alliance in the past and really do work in the spell based combo MUs and Big Mana. I've been bringing them in for Eldrazi Tron as well but this might be wrong if they start playing more Caverns.
I'm currently new on MTGsalvation, and I registered in order to share my knowledge about kiki-Chord style deck and debate about cards slot.
I'm playing the deck for more than 1 year now. I bring it to competitive tournement in Paris (some top4/top8), where I live, and also to GP level (went 10-4-1 at GP Lille - top 100 - last summer, and 5-4 in Copenhagen one week ago).
I'm actually working on a list for GP Birmmingham in august (4C Saheeli with kiki and a more "classic" list with Eldritch Evolution)
If you have any question or advice, feel free to share =) !
What did you lose to in Copenhagen?
My main issue with more traditional Kiki Chord lists right now is just how simple it is for DS Decks to tear apart a 7 leaving you with uncastable chords or just irrelevant toolbox creatures and just run you over in the first 3-4 turns of a game. On top of that the deck isn't great against Ad Nauseam, Burn, Eldrazi Tron, Storm, Dredge, Titan decks or Tron.
To be 100% honest, I think the deck is pretty poorly positioned right now.
Just an update on what I've been testing in my Fauana Shaman list lately after a couple of weeks of just running super cold with your run of the mill stock Knightfall. The updates I'd made were pretty specific to the piss poor results against Abzan Company, Elves (with the Vizier Combo), and spell based combo (Ad Naus, Storm).
1x Courser of Kruphix / 1x Tireless Tracker MD - I've tossed and turned between quantities here. Trying 2 of 1 or a Split. Most time when you're in a position to toolbox via Shaman you're either looking to grab a Knight/Queller. But in specific MUs like Burn the first card I'll tutor up is Courser and often having a 2nd just shuts the Door or If I still have lands in hand vs. Decks like UW and sometimes Death's Shadow I want to grab Tracker to help dig for Path or generate value. 1x Aven Mindcensor MD - I wanted a MD hatebear capable of slowing down Abzan Company, Storm (Gifts), Big Mana Decks. Functioning at instant speed with Fuana Shaman is definitely an additional perk. It can also be pretty potent vs. Death's Shadow variants unstable 12x Fetch Manabase. 1x Scavenging Ooze MD - I'm 100% sure the quantity should be 2 MD but I've been testing as a 1/1 split between MD/SB. Finding space has been a challenge. 1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence SB - I think this card is going to be a powerhouse going forward being extremely powerful in a number of MUs. 0x Unified Will SB - I'll be honest, the only time I miss this card right now is when my opponent is resolving a Primeval Titan. Negate does a fine job in the MUs where I want counterspells and plays well in the Burn MU. I could still be talked off this ledge.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
Shaman is at its worst vs. anything looking to grind that you can't necessarily toolbox against.
I stand by the card as a multiple in Bant lists as tutoring up Queller every turn can just bury a lot of decks.. as a 1-of in Abzan lists I'm honestly not a fan.
I always preferred Blood Moon in the board of my Company list instead of addition copies of Magus.
Not sure what Company list you tried but GWx Vizier has terrible Shadow/Control MUs.
If you're main decking Blessed Alliance your numbers are probably skewed in comparison to mine but my G1 win rate vs. Burn w/ list closer to Traditional Chord/Nahiri Chord was sub 30% on the draw/45% on the play and 45%/50% post board. Eldrazi Tron was pretty much 50% across the board. Death Shadow is as bad as I imply, game 1's were almost never in my favor with the exception of them seeing 0-1 pieces of disruption in the first 4 turns and post board was just as bad (have actual W%'s across variants at home that I can post later).
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/modern-bant-counters-company/
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/kyleboggemes-06152017-bant-company-in-modern/
I disagree with a few numbers and the manabase in both lists. But was looking to see if anyone here has put in some time with it?
Thought I'd post the list I've been playing/tweaking for a few weeks now. I unfortunately won't be making it out to any GPs or Opens for the remainder of the year, but wanted to share for feedback.
A couple of notes:
0x Path MD - My win rate with Kiki Company lists drastically increased after replacing MD Paths with Reflector Mages. Company hits are better, additional bodies contribute towards Chord in MUs where Path is irrelevant and get in there for Gavony beats.
4x Grove of the Burnwillows - I've been so happy with this switch. I'm 26-8 vs. Death Shadow variants since late May and the number of games I've lost due to opponents gaining an additional point of life here and there are almost non-existent that I've encountered. Additionally, my Burn MU feels better than ever..
Hallowed Fountain / Steam Vents - I'm still unsure on this one. I have 16 permanents capable of producing a Blue, but there have been times where I want a Fountain on 2 to play out Voice into a Reflector Mage on 3 or a 3rd fetchable Red source to hard cast Kiki-Jiki. Both lands do contribute to unkeepable hands more often than I like as having a Green producing land on T1 is what this deck is all about.
3x Unified Will SB - These filled slots where'd I'd played Blood Moon / Blessed Alliance in the past and really do work in the spell based combo MUs and Big Mana. I've been bringing them in for Eldrazi Tron as well but this might be wrong if they start playing more Caverns.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Deceiver Exarch
3x Eternal Witness
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Reflector Mage
1x Restoration Angel
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Magus of the Moon
3x Path to Exile
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Reveillark
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
3x Unified Will
What did you lose to in Copenhagen?
My main issue with more traditional Kiki Chord lists right now is just how simple it is for DS Decks to tear apart a 7 leaving you with uncastable chords or just irrelevant toolbox creatures and just run you over in the first 3-4 turns of a game. On top of that the deck isn't great against Ad Nauseam, Burn, Eldrazi Tron, Storm, Dredge, Titan decks or Tron.
To be 100% honest, I think the deck is pretty poorly positioned right now.
Just an update on what I've been testing in my Fauana Shaman list lately after a couple of weeks of just running super cold with your run of the mill stock Knightfall. The updates I'd made were pretty specific to the piss poor results against Abzan Company, Elves (with the Vizier Combo), and spell based combo (Ad Naus, Storm).
3x Birds of Paradise
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Fauna Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
Enchantment (2)
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Negate
1x Eldritch Evolution
2x Reflector Mage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
A couple of talking points on card selection:
1x Courser of Kruphix / 1x Tireless Tracker MD - I've tossed and turned between quantities here. Trying 2 of 1 or a Split. Most time when you're in a position to toolbox via Shaman you're either looking to grab a Knight/Queller. But in specific MUs like Burn the first card I'll tutor up is Courser and often having a 2nd just shuts the Door or If I still have lands in hand vs. Decks like UW and sometimes Death's Shadow I want to grab Tracker to help dig for Path or generate value.
1x Aven Mindcensor MD - I wanted a MD hatebear capable of slowing down Abzan Company, Storm (Gifts), Big Mana Decks. Functioning at instant speed with Fuana Shaman is definitely an additional perk. It can also be pretty potent vs. Death's Shadow variants unstable 12x Fetch Manabase.
1x Scavenging Ooze MD - I'm 100% sure the quantity should be 2 MD but I've been testing as a 1/1 split between MD/SB. Finding space has been a challenge.
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence SB - I think this card is going to be a powerhouse going forward being extremely powerful in a number of MUs.
0x Unified Will SB - I'll be honest, the only time I miss this card right now is when my opponent is resolving a Primeval Titan. Negate does a fine job in the MUs where I want counterspells and plays well in the Burn MU. I could still be talked off this ledge.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Spellskite
2x Viscera Seer
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
3x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Tireless Tracker