MTG Salvation

Well now I guess I am forcing PE in Modern.

Banned because it wins seemingly out of nowhere. No other criteria mentioned.
While other cards also meet this criteria, it seems they leaned on the fact that it requires little deckbuilding focus to be effective.

I believe this is the first card to be banned because it wins seemingly out of nowhere since Coalition Victory. I do not know if this means other cards will start being more heavily considered for banning... but that seems like the logical conclusion.

Archetype of Courage seems decent

Quote from JqlGirl »

Don't mind me, just enjoying the speculation

Can we make a thread to ask you questions about the announcement?

Quote from umtiger »

Stax cards are fine. But when a lock piece also provides value...it's different.

I mean, what if Winter Orb and Howling Mine were combined into the same card at 3?

However, you don't have to consider hypothetical, made-up cards. Just take a look at Narset, Parter of Veils. It's a lock piece that is ALSO asymmetric and Impulse x 2. Here's the kicker, it's a planeswalker. Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking.

I'm not calling for a ban. But perhaps you need to provide a more critical analysis of why Narset was discussed.

I think you misspoke.

Unlike artifacts and enchantments, you can attack Planeswalkers.

There. Unless we are putting her in the command zone you just need creatures in order to take advantage.
Notion Thief has been around a long time never considered for banning, and it is way more versatile. Why is not worth banning? Because it is not a commander.

I am not sure what Maro podcast you are referring to - there was a stream, and they mentioned Narset as a card to watch but they each felt like it was fine since it was not in the command zone.

Cards that don't let people play the game have been banned when they are in the command zone. Leovold and Braids, for example. I like both cards but I see why they are both brutal when you can build a deck around them.

Iona seems the most likely.
Maybe PS unbanning.

I always thought that Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was one of the top hatebears. There is also Anafenza, the Foremost.

I don't expect any huge changes right off the bat. The philosophy document will be the main thing. Could mention potential areas for change down the road.

Maybe they could squeeze one or two bannings, but I think it would detract from the philosophy document, unless the philosophy document specifically discusses something that is clearly violated by a card.

If WotC printed more tutoring hosers, would it help?

We have 2 white creatures, 1 red enchantment, 1 blue artifact, and 2 Dimir Hybrid cards. Seems to me that if there were more of these available, it could help.

There is also Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.

Quote from Pokken »

If you want the 1-2 CMC tutors played on occasion in competitive decks you're getting:

• eladamri's call
  
• mystical tutor
  
• vampiric tutor
  
• gamble
  
• enlightened tutor
  
• demonic tutor
  
• imperial seal
  
• merchant scroll
  
• crop rotation
  
• sylvan scrying
  
• entomb
  
• scheming symmetry
  
• neoform
  
• personal tutor
  
• summoner's pact
  
• sylvan tutor
  
• transmute artifact
  

That's a pretty huge list. And you'd need to get basically all of those or at least a good subset.

And that all is completely leaving aside the fact that there are a ton of generals with one card combos with cards like staff of domination, food chain and curiosity. One card combos are extremely easy to execute if that's your focus and there's a pretty significant variety.

Based on the number of people playing dark petition, ad nauseam, grim tutor, survival of the fittest, beseech the queen, idyllic tutor and fabricate and whir of invention and chord of calling and intuition there is no way you make more than a dent with just cheap tutors.

mystical teachings is another pretty strong option you'd see a lot more of if the cheaper ones were banned. Not to mention more exotic stuff like quiet speculation.

Yup.
Obviously, there are some cards I would include on the list that you didn't, and some that you did but I wouldn't. That's just opinion.

I am not saying that it will fix everything. It would just make it less consistent and drive people towards other strategies.

If you don't want people tutoring up the same combo every game, have fewer tutors. You can't ban every combo.

And I cannot think of another way to stop people from playing the same combo every time.

The idea isn't to stop people from tutoring. The idea is to effectively reduce the number of tutors available by closing the door on the most flexible and popular tutors. A monoblack deck may still have Dark Petition and Beseech the Queen, but if they need a critical number of tutors to get their combo, they are going to be forced to play Diabolic Tutor or they are going to be forced to change the makeup of their deck.

If you banned these tutors on your list, I think most people would just put in good cards to replace them. Decks that are dependent on tutoring will be forced to adapt themselves.


The only other thing that anyone has said that I think could be viable (but weird to implement) would be to change the rules of EDH so there is an emblem in the command zone that says: "If you would search your library for a card, search only the top 20 cards". Something like that.

It is the consistency of tutoring combos that would need to be addressed by the RC if Sheldon feels there is a problem with the current state of commander.

If not, then do not change anything.

Quote from Pokken »

Quote from Dunharrow »

If the perceived problem is that people are actively trying to combo out every game... and not that they have combos in their deck that they sometimes draw into.... then the obvious answer is that low cmc tutors need to be banned.

I have always said that I dislike tutors. This format is singleton, and there are enough tutors in a 3 colour deck to effectively play the same win condition in every game. Doesn't feel like singleton.

Sure, some people tutor out their jank synergies. Those decks can settle for less aggressive tutors, especially if that also means that combo decks are much weaker.


The issue isn't that people are playing scepter and reversal. It is that there are so many ways to tutor it that they may as well go for it every game.

I treat Chord of Calling like a toolbox card. But I am not getting an Acidic Slime to blow up a Cradle if I can get a Protean Hulk and win the game right away. This is the issue. Once you have the tutors, it is usually correct to tutor the combo. So you either restrict yourself by not including tutors or not including combos or you end up comboing out consistently.

The problem with this is that it--

1) is a *massive* change to the format, touching basically half of all decks if not more and requiring a banlist addition of at least 10 cards that all have broad fair uses outside of combos
2) would necessitate banning several additional generals
3) would just be replaced with filtering and cantrips immediately
4) has an extreme financial implication; it would likely cause a swing of billions in the value of cards. Billions.

I would not suggest to ban all tutors. I may not like tutoring but it is still part of the game.
I just think the cheap ones could be banned to make people play the more expensive tutors or to play other less consistent options.

I think the number of tutors is the problem, and the 1-2 cmc tutors are the best candidates for banning.

I am not calling for a banning of tutors... any really. I know I don't like them but I am just one person. I know that I find they defy the nature of singleton but other people disagree.
I just think that if Sheldon feels like people are just all trying to race to combo at casual levels, then early tutors are the problem, not the combos themselves.

The number of combos in magic will only go up
The number of tutors will also go up, but the rates are not going to be as good as the 1-2 cmc tutors.
Consistency appears to be the issue, not the fact that people have combos in their decks.

You don't want decks to consistently combo, then ban 1-2 cmc tutors and make people play build differently.

If the perceived problem is that people are actively trying to combo out every game... and not that they have combos in their deck that they sometimes draw into.... then the obvious answer is that low cmc tutors need to be banned.

I have always said that I dislike tutors. This format is singleton, and there are enough tutors in a 3 colour deck to effectively play the same win condition in every game. Doesn't feel like singleton.

Sure, some people tutor out their jank synergies. Those decks can settle for less aggressive tutors, especially if that also means that combo decks are much weaker.


The issue isn't that people are playing scepter and reversal. It is that there are so many ways to tutor it that they may as well go for it every game.

I treat Chord of Calling like a toolbox card. But I am not getting an Acidic Slime to blow up a Cradle if I can get a Protean Hulk and win the game right away. This is the issue. Once you have the tutors, it is usually correct to tutor the combo. So you either restrict yourself by not including tutors or not including combos or you end up comboing out consistently.

Nexus was definitely a mistake.

However, being the last card of your library puts it in the same area as Laboratory Maniac, which I would say is far from banning.

Could you imagine if Golos' ability read: WUBRG: Exile the top three cards of your library. You may cast a nonland card with the lowest converted mana cost without paying its cost.

I think it would have been so easy to make Golos interesting.

White:
1. Sun Titan
2. Reveillark
3. Yosei, the Morning Star
4. Kami of False Hope
5. Martyr's Bond

Blue:
1. Treasure Cruise
2. Time Spiral
3. Venser, Shaper Savant
4. Tradewind Rider
5. Preordain

Black:
1. Viscera Seer
2. Mindslicer
3. Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4. Liliana, Heretical Healer
5. Plaguecrafter

Red:
1. Possibility Storm
2. Zealous Conscripts
3. Etali, Primal Storm
4. Humble Defector
5. Sunbird's Invocation

Green:
1. Acidic Slime
2. Growing Rites of Itlimoc
3. birthing pod
4. Garruk Wildspeaker
5. Song of the Dryads

Land:
1. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2. Blighted Fen
3. Throne of the High City
4. Scavenger Grounds
5. Strip Mine

Multicolour
1. Karador, Ghost Chieftain
2. Maelstrom Wanderer
3. Pernicious Deed
4. Reyhan, last of the abzan
5. Kiora's Follower

Colourless
1. Mind Stone
2. Paradox Engine
3. Ashnod's altar
4. Emrakul, the Promised End
5. Crystalline Crawler