2019 Holiday Exchange!
 
A New and Exciting Beginning
 
The End of an Era
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    I feel like if you are running any mainboard discard running Fetches is a bad idea. You don't want to have a hand with a Thoughtseize in it and your only way to play it turn 1 is to crack a Delta for a Watery Grave. Hurray going to 15 on turn 1. Yes I know you can grab a swamp, but that also makes it possible for you not to cast Cryptic turn 4, which may be an even worse line of play.

    As for the Blood Moon problem people are bringing up, I think people need to consider boarding in Engineered Explosives against decks with Moon. As long as we have 1 Swamp and 1 Island, we can always set up Explosives for 3 with a Blood Moon in play, which lets us get rid of it whenever we want our mana again, which can make Moon more of a detriment to our opponent than ourselves.

    Additionally anyone running an Esper list, remember the ever wonderful first mode of Esper Charm. Blood Moon on the stack, float UWB, Esper Charm Blood Moon. Nice enchantment bro Smile


    Of course you won't Fetch -> Shock -> Thoughtseize ... at least not versus unknown decks. There are so many cases in which it wouldn't even matter (Ad Nauseam, Storm in general). Otherwise you would simply do, what you are doing with the white splash anyway (don't tell me you are going to Fetch -> Shock for Fountains..) and start a round late. Thats something that happens quite regularly even now with Tar Pit or Glen without reveal (and if only for tactical reasons). I don't really see a corellation here.

    EE for moon because in magical christmasland you drew all your basics is not a good plan Smile Of course it can/could happen but come on... with fetches thats another deal... and exactly what we are discussing..

    Additionally, yeah Esper Charm can get rid of Moon, but that includes some excessive fetching beforehand and you probably will have similiar problems to fetch -> seize anyway.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    @post above me: I don't like those sideboard changes. Way to many 1-offs and I don't see the need for at least Snapcaster in the board. Probably because it shall be "toolbox like" but I don't think it'll work that way.


    @Fetchlands: Okay, let us step back for a moment and stop considering the reason for the fetchlands and start concentrating on "how would a fetchland manabase look like anyway"? I don't think simply swapping rivers will do it, because you would have opening hands without black mana and fetching for a swamp without 3 blue sources in sight is not that great with cryptic.

    This would lead to at least 1 watery grave in the manabase. For the sake of the idea lets assume we run 24 lands (adding an additional one shouldn't be a problem anyways) with 4 Mutavault and 1-2 flexslots (which would include the split of Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter/Pendelhaven of your choice). Additionally we say, we play discard at least in the board, so there is a need for some untapped T1 black sources as well (again, changing some lands is not the problem here, finding an ideal base for this setup could be).

    I'll start and we discuss/refine it together:



    Main questions:
    -Are 4 Deltas enough or would we need some strands?
    -would we like to play another dual for EE on 3 (besides the random Pendelhaven cases)
    -are 3 Islands enough (needed for cryptics under blood moon...and if we try to solve this..) so we could add sunken ruins?
    -12 (potentially) untapped T1 black sources aren't exactly the ideal number but close enough I guess.

    Edit: Just thought I'd share this moment: Played another round against my Affinity partner and he won 2-1 because he was on the play in game 3 and landed Blood Moon (new in his sideboard -_-) T2. Guess not even fetchies would have done anything.. :<
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    I don't think Burn bothers playing Moon (0.1 copies on average in the top 20 burn decks on mtgtop8.com... it just does nothing for their plan), Storm is another thing.

    Of course getting better against Moon with fetches is good, but that simply wasn't the question. The question was if playing fetches, for instance for Shackles, is worth it.

    Let's be honest of course you loose some games because you couldn't answer Moon, but it's not nearly as much of an issue that playing fetches solely for it would be worth it.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Quote from RyO37 »
    Quote from nilgoun »
    I don't really see the Problem with Blood Moon to be honest. Yeah it wrecks our manabase IF it hits but that shouldnt happen that often. It is not even that widely played.

    Merfolk is pretty doable if they miss their nut draw, islands would worsen that matchup. On the other hand you would gain Shackles which should help with this and other matchups.


    It's actually a big problem. Maybe against Blue Moon you can wait and counter it, but against Affinity, while they are casting Echted Champion, Cranial Plating, Steel Overseer you can't have mana available and counters for everything. Same goes against UR Twin, you can't tap neither because of Blood Moon and Twin, if your opponent is a good player this should be a close matchup.

    PS: On a less serious note, I won't forget once I was winning against Merfolks but decided to kill a Mutavault with an Slaughter Pact to ensure the win next turn. Then he untapped, Scalding Tarn to Steam Vents, Blood Moon.


    Well how many Moons arein the standard Affinity sideboard? Close to zero. It is played WAY less than Master of Etherium. It would be hard otherwise (although you don't have to counter that much with Hurkyls in hand).

    But honestly, Moon against Twin shouldn't be a great Problem unless you are missing landdrops. The earliest Moon could hit the boardis T3 unprotected. Granted T3 twiddler into T4 Moon with Dispel Back up is hard but also a very good draw. If you are a good player Twin should be easy, remember that single creatures don't have to be countered if you have decent removal in hand. Who cares if there is a 1/4 critter? Additionally many Twin players opt for Spreading Seas instead of moon.

    You should run some islands either way, but a semi played sideboard card alone is no reason for takin fetch damage in my opinion.

    Edit: Don't forget that discard handles Moon just fine as well
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    I don't really see the Problem with Blood Moon to be honest. Yeah it wrecks our manabase IF it hits but that shouldnt happen that often. It is not even that widely played.

    Merfolk is pretty doable if they miss their nut draw, islands would worsen that matchup. On the other hand you would gain Shackles which should help with this and other matchups.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    I experimented with Vedalken Shackles as well as it's the only reason I see for playing Fetchlands... but I don't think Serum Visions would be worth it, as it wasn't before.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Quote from Valanarch »
    I think if you have the means to Grixis does things just fine (if not better than Esper really)
    Faeries in this format wants to be a tempo deck at very high points. Bolt is a superior tempo card because it is removal for most of the smaller drops in the format at cheap cost and doubles as face damage which can be crucial when racing against your own bitterblossom damage. Bolt alone seems to pick up the slack for the tempo principles of the deck and snapcaster helps make that a thing. Grixis conceptually doesnt seem too bad, but I dont like electrolyze and terminus here. I think bolt is enough red maindeck, as your manabase being stuck without a splashed color should not stop you from handling a threat (I think).


    I would say that splashing for Bolt and a few sideboard cards has a lot lower of an impact than Path, Azorius Charm, Esper Charm, and some sideboard cards. Bolt is strong, but it isn't stronger than all of that.


    Additionaly you should ask yourself if Bolt really does help racing when you tool fetching damage in beforehand. Especially if you only splash for one card fetching for it will get incredibly strange
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    Quote from nilgoun »
    That is something I considered of course. Given your posted list I would say it wouldn't have made the difference. The removal package wasn't the problem (granted, 1-2 times taking 2 from dismember COULD maybe have changed something) as I stated. The only thing that could have changed how it played out might have been Azorius Charm as it could have delayed him. The fact is: Going more into white you have to fetch Fountains quite early. In starting Hands with Island, Delta, Delta (or Strand, doesn't really matter) you probably would want to have black (Blossom, Discard!) but white as well for removal (if you don't run black one) leaving you with awkward sequencing/fetching decisions. Of course other 3 colour decks have the same problem, but I think it's worse for us as T1 discard will be way harder then (I wouldn't want to fetch for 3 to play Inquisition or even Thoughtseize but otherwise you could be too damn slow if your turn 2 includes fetch to get white).


    Don't know if you noticed, but I don't have any discard in the main on my list. Honestly I have completely moved my discard in all my Faerie lists to the sideboard, and I have gotten great success in doing that so far. My reasoning for this is one many people have already realized; Aggro murders our deck. Thoughtseize and Inquisition are best in match ups where you want to 1 for 1 the cards your opponent has in their hand. Against aggressive decks you want to at least 1 for 1 the cards they have on the battlefield. If you want I can post the current UB Fae list I'm running, which I have been winning literally twice as many games with as the one I took to the PTQ a few weeks ago. Honestly, my biggest problem right now is dealing with RG Tron. The problem with that deck is that they can just assemble everything for their combo too quickly. Maybe I want more Ghost Quarters/Tec Edges in the deck? Maybe I need a way to deal with Karn/Wurmcoil/O-Stone? There are too many variables to that deck and its consistency is a nightmare.


    I have seen your list, and running no discard is fine of course so you can partly ignore this post. In this case you have to board 9 pieces for the gifts package though (or may be incredibly slow with it). I want to emphasize that you probably win more games now because you tweaked ot to your prefered playing style not because it is objectively better. Like i said some times before there are several ways to get the deck going. I for instance am fine with RG Tron and even won through t3 karns before.

    @valanarch: I just saw I missed parts of your post: of course gifts may catch players of guard but I'm still not convinced. The biggest problem so far was it being too slow or drawing pieces, not the potentialy adapted lists. a really small splash for white sb cards might be okay but i do not think it is necessary
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    @Damage taken: I wouldn't want to take some hits because the aggressive decks (with which we may struggle either way) profit quite a bit. Of course Azorius Charm might help, but then again you need some critters on the board for it to work. The most promising is probably a Mistbind Clique againts decks without white.

    I hope you won't imply that cryptic early isn't useful. If you're dead on board the Cryptic won't change anything, granted, but one cryptic can make all the difference, although I might overvalue it a bit here.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Okay, so I'm going to answer the last couple of comments regarding my test, before ignoring the general Esper talk.

    @Valanarch: May be, that I oversaw you said it can be slow against Affinity. I think sideboard options that can be slow against one of the decks that can be really dangerous aren't that exciting though. You seriously HAVE to start worrying about Master if Gifts becomes bigger again, since he is an out that allows multiple creatures to live through a resolved Elesh and btw: His list played both, like you could have read. Regarding 24/25 lands: We both know the probablity difference for hitting 4 lands in turn 4 is mere 4%. I'll give you that one game that was decided because of the one missing land. Remember: My other list could survive with less lands, simply because you had more stuff to play that wasn't cmc4+. BTW: I would even think they could start running dispatch when Elesh becomes a bigger thing... but I'm no Affinity Expert.

    Quote from Skitzafreak »

    The UB Faerie list is kind of like a clock. You have a whole bunch of different gears which together help you tick forward with your gameplan. If you just try to jam another gear in there it won't work properly. Rather if you want to incorporate the Gifts package into the 75 you need to change the gears of the deck so that they work properly with the ones you are adding in. If you add in white to the UB Faerie deck, the list completely changes. Why run Slaughter Pact, Tragic Slip and Dismember when you can just run a play set of Path to Exile? Adding white to the deck gives our card base a plethora of more options, why not try and make use of them? The Gifts package isn't Goyf, where splashing an extra colour just for it will be powerful enough to justify the splash.


    That is something I considered of course. Given your posted list I would say it wouldn't have made the difference. The removal package wasn't the problem (granted, 1-2 times taking 2 from dismember COULD maybe have changed something) as I stated. The only thing that could have changed how it played out might have been Azorius Charm as it could have delayed him. The fact is: Going more into white you have to fetch Fountains quite early. In starting Hands with Island, Delta, Delta (or Strand, doesn't really matter) you probably would want to have black (Blossom, Discard!) but white as well for removal (if you don't run black one) leaving you with awkward sequencing/fetching decisions. Of course other 3 colour decks have the same problem, but I think it's worse for us as T1 discard will be way harder then (I wouldn't want to fetch for 3 to play Inquisition or even Thoughtseize but otherwise you could be too damn slow if your turn 2 includes fetch to get white).

    [/quote]

    Quote from BatHickey »

    @nilgoun, I'm primarily a gifts player, and unless gifts in your main and part of your main plan (which is reasonable), its not worth the transformational sideboard. The thing I need to explain as an experienced gifts player is that if you draw the pieces for things like loam/crime, or unburial/fattie before giftsing for them they are essentially dead draws outside of putting them in the grave/hand with gifts when you need them--and you really can't afford to have dead draws against affinity--especially if its your go-to sideboard plan against the deck.

    If you're committed to the transformational sideboard (it is fun, isnt it?!), I'd run a minimum of 4 gifts. I also recommend adding at least a singleton lingering souls, a noxious revival, and a stony silence (white hate). A singleton path to exile can't hurt either, but it just puts you further into esper, which isn't the worst.


    So two sides here. First of @BatHickey: You more or less say exactly what I was trying to say with my post, so thank you... although your post seems to imply I didn't get this somehow, but I guess I just read it wrong. @All others: Please read this post as he clearly states (as an experienced player!) what's the deal with Gifts in your sideboard. You might play an extended Gifts Package, but then again you are losing 8!+ sideboard slots for an interaction that can and sometimes WILL be to slow against decks you wanted to tackle!


    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    I like how not 3 days ago a lot of people were being rather stubborn against the idea of an Esper Faerie list. But now that we will have Delta and Strand it's all "Go for it! Win a PTQ! Get the home run damn it!" It's mildly entertaining.


    To be fair, I think his post was full of irony.

    Again: After this post I will simply ignore posts about splashing until something bigger has happened (for instance more good Sultai cards) or the results clearly speak for themselves, as I could easily be wrong on this topic.

    I understand the desire for going Esper (I played UW fae when I started with modern, having the desire to add Bitterblossom alone and going Esper.. but times have changed) but can't see why Grixis (which had nearly all the right fetches anyway) is discussed again. You probably only want to fetch for a swamp in a really really slight portion of your games and all the stuff for Grixis was there before. Slightly the same goes for BUG Fae, but they get at least new cards now.

    The reason why I'm not seeing this making huge waves is simple: Path to Exile is terrible against Manadorks and with 3-4 Path and 0-2 black removal spells you have no option stopping them. Gifts may be better against Pod (since they are usually slower than Affinity) but you won't realiably stop a T2 Pod. Esper Charm and the fact that you want early removal will often result in TWO turns of no real action (Fetch -> Fetch both duals tapped or playing those duals tapped) and we haven't the tools (unlike UWR) to handle this. Of course early turns without good action happened before but that were games against slower decks or games we lost.

    Of course I can see the positive implications a splash can bring (Path/Azorius charm against Tron for instance) but I think the damage will still outweigh the positive effects. Mainly because I don't see that anyone will fetch for basics that often (unless Islands, but that was possible with the fetches we had, so no real difference here). With the count of Mutavaults, Tec Edges etc. I can't see fetching plains early while still being able to cast Cryptic Command early.

    But than again, these are just my thoughts and you are invited to prove me wrong.


    Edit: If going into Esper I could see the new Sorin as a PW that helps to mitigate the Lifelos implied through Fetch/Shock/Blossom/Thoughtseize
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Oh, right I was a bit unspecific. I tested against Affinity because it was one of the decks Valanarch used to promote Gifts. Usually I would say Affinity is doable if they have a normal to good start, nearly impossible with nuts. My previous sideboard was:



    Here I boarded Explosives, Skull and Recall. Especially Recall allowed to win this matchup. The mainboard was a typical UB Fae build (no gimmickry from white as the main purpose was to test Gifts speficially ... so I wouldn't say too much about the splash itself).



    So some comments beforehand: The only thing that's really changed from my normal list is the landbase, which might be suboptimal and could need tweaking but the problems with gifts did not came from wrong lands, so this should be neglectible at the moment. I feel that Affinity is somewhat in the 50/50, 55/45 range so not too good but not that bad either.

    Can't get my hands on the Affinity list right now, but he plays Master of Etherium, something to look out for.

    Sideboarding was depending if I was otd/otp.

    OTD: -3 Leak (leak usually is too slow, discard helps getting rid of Plating/Ravager/Etched Champion while holding up snare for the rest)
    -1 Slaughter Pact
    -1 Mistbind (not really happy with that, but wouldn't have mattered, see below)
    +3 Gifts Ungiven
    +1 Unburial Rites
    +1 Elesh Norn


    OTP: -1 Slaughter Pact
    -1 Mistbind Clique
    -3 Inquisition
    + the same as above

    OTP it's just not as important to have discard usually as you can start countering T2 if needed. Might not be optimal as boarding Gifts is completely different from boarding (faster) answers.

    The main problem was being to slow with Gifts. Usually you want to slam Gifts Turn 4 but Affinity often managed to sneak something important through which completely foiled the plan. Elesh Norn can't kill Master of Etherium, Ravager (if there is something left on the board at least) and Champions/Ornithopters with Master out. My main problem often was a) not hitting the 4th land in time (which can be the problem with my usual list as well, although Hurkyl's help to buy the time) OR drawing one of the combo pieces (funnily enough this happened quite often, but we played on cockatrice so that may be a factor :>). Everytime I had the Pack Rat to try discarding something he had the removal to kill it beforehand OR had me dead before Gifts could start working.

    We only made postboard games and as mentioned Gifts was often to slow (facing lethal on board vs. the desire to cast Gifts you have to slow them down with chumps, removal (if anything was left of course) or cryptics). I don't remember the exact number of casted Gifts but it wasn't as high as one would imagine because of 2 possible outcomes: a) not enough lands fast enough (so Turn4/5) or b) drawn combo pieces without discard outlets. I won 2 games because of Gifts (which probably would have been won with Hurkyl's as well) or normal business without it, some even where gifts "stole'" the place of another card because it wasn't needed.

    We could argue if Affinity really was the best matchup to test it against (and of course Stony Silence probably would have changed things... but then again why bother playing gifts if Stony Silence + X probably is already enough) but I don't know any good pod player, so that was the only choice to have something on a competitive level.

    Running additional Affinity hate (e.g. Recalls/Silence) can't be an option in my opinion (although Silence does some work against Tron) as Gifts already takes up 6 sideboard slots.

    My sideboarding probably could have been tweaked as well, but we discussed this and both thought it should look something like this. Slaughter Pact isn't that great against Affinity as it opens a window for them. I usually take out the Pack Rats as they aren't that great against Affinity and any number of leaks/discard, like I did now. The main problem here is you somewhat have to leave Thoughtseize in to emergency seize yourself to get rid of a combo piece which can be awkward but otherwise congrats to your dead cards (reviving a Fae usually isn't a great option, again opening windows) as Gifts for 4 random cards isn't that great here.

    Feel free to criticize and/or dismissing my thoughts, as I won't dictate something (and I have said before: Faeries is all about tweaking it to your personal preferences e.g. Scion/no Scion, Rats etc..) but wanted to share my thoughts.

    Edit: As I suspect you'd ask anyway... I never had REAL problems hitting Mistbind with my Faerie count. Of course there are times where you only have vaults to champion, but that's why they are there in the first (/second) place. Tested Scion in the last week and it's simply not my prefered playing style so I rather watch out for blow outs (which don't happen THAT often and usual only against multiple removal spells)
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    This manabase seems to be fine, the only thing I'm asking myself is: Where is the REAL advantage over the standard UB manabases. We can grab an Island against Moon decks okay, but that costs at least one life. Starting hands with Delta + Vault will be awkward (but then again, Tar Pit has the same problem) as you don't want to fetch -> shock -> thoughtseize. I think we have to test if it's worth running delta or not (Shackles might be an option... but with the resurgence of BG/X and decay it seems to be worse).


    @Gifts package: I played a number of testgames (~20) against a friend and I felt Gifts was to slow to actually save me (and I've seen some boardstates in which it wouldn't even have mattered). This is just a small sample size but the 4 mana on gifts + you can't really do something that turn seems to be quite harsh, although the possible advantage is there.

    Edit: I just noticed I missed the Stony Silence ... maybe this is gonna change the situation.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Having options is great, but IF I would splash a colour (something I'm not convinced is worth it... but we'll see) I would opt for Tar Pit. Nobody plays Disfigure at the moment, so you shouldn't worry about that, Electrolyze should be foreseeable and granted, Bolt can be bad. The reason why Tar Pit is better simply is: Colonnade needs freaking 6 Mana to be active and does nothing for you in the meantime, while Tar Pit could have swung at least two times. If you are at six mana you could play every other spell with two mana open, so that's a big plus (if you're in UBW the aforementioned Path should still be possible here).

    The last real argument here should be: Tar Pit is unblockable and you could be able to win through tons of Lingering Souls token, Ornithopters and the like while Colonnade would do nothing. It has some advantages but I think Tar Pit outweighs them easily enough.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    Okay first of all my statement was according to deltas mainboard. I guess we all understood now that you are advocating the gifts packahge here, no need to answer every single post with it. It will probably be tested now but I wouldn't bet anything that it's going to be adapted. Blood Moon won't be that much of an issue, as it was okay now (just counter it) and it will probably be less played.

    Edit: typing with tablets is hard... my post was meant to answer valanarch
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] UB/x Faeries
    It should be considered, but afaik the fetchands werent played back in extended because the lifeloss was still too much
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.