I really think faeries is a very meta dependent deck. As we can see, many builds can be successful. At the moment the best decks are pod and twin if I'm not mistaken. I know scapeshift won a gp not to long ago. Jund is still decent. Affinity is always a threat. What build of faeries works best against this kind of meta? I've played a lot of the scion/serum visions build lately. The deck gives you a lot of free wins, unlike the more controlling versions, but if scion is ever your only piece of action it is disgusting. I like to keep the faerie count higher in these builds.
Well Twin and Scapeshift shouldn't be an issue with either version. Jund is as grindy as it gets while I think every version has it's problems against Pod and Affinity, although both decks HIGHLY depend on their pilot and starting hands. You can't really compete with turn 1 Plating from Affinity with either version while a slow hand is backbreaking for them.
What I want to say is: There probably is no right version for either meta as it's not only dependant on your opponents but also on your draw (and prefered play style). I often think about Scion as a 2-of but can't really bring myself to test it because it seems that you either have to play 4 or 0 to get decent effects.
I tested Liliana the past week and while there were times where she was awesome (especially against UWR) I often held one and didn't want to drop her for several reasons (kind of short on mana for intance). Especially in the harder matchups I didn't really liked her, so it's probably another matter of taste here. Maybe we get Ancestral Visions back soon, which would easily solve all of MY problems with the controlish version of Fae.
First of all: Quickling is WAY worse than "Snapcaster Mage for creatures with ETB abilities" as it's highly dependant on the board state, which is not true for Snapcaster (which I dislike more and more in Fae... but that's another topic).
Of course some of the scenarios you described sound great, but it seems that your opponent does nothing as well... kind of magical christmas land. You forget the most important part here: You have to have a creature AND Quickling (and I guess we all agree that even if you are playing him, it wouldn't be 4 copies) AND your opponent can't have removal. You effectively need more than 1 creature to prevent the 2-1 trade (flash Quickling and in response your other creature gets bolted or something). Point 5. can only withstand instant speed removal if you have enough mana and well.. all of these cards.
Nobody says there can't be situations in which this card seems amazing but it has the worse ETB-clause (compared to Mistbind where you can happily take your blossom) AND the worse-ETB effect as well while it would make starting hands really awkward if you get any number of Quicklings + Mistbinds. Of course anyone willing may try it as he likes but I think its WAY to situational.
I tested some times with them now and they are either incredibly broken or rather useless. If you draw business it's rather dead because you're probably better of keeping those cards (for instance counters against twin) but additional blossoms, spare lands (giving the fact you wouldn't really like to tap too much lands on your turn against twin to go in with tar pits) etc. are welcome food for those rats. They quickly get out of hand and can end games rather quickly.
The worst they did so far was hitting the board just to eat a removal spell right afterwards, which is still incredibly fine with me most of the time. I don't really see why they should be better in 8-rack or such because it does nothing for their gameplan while giving us a really solid plan b.
Several lists started picking them up again. Back when I started Fae (Mono U) I played some as well, but in a format in which Abrupt Decay was around every corner it wasn't good enough. Jund isn't that popular anymore (although it's starting to comeback) but Melira Pod is... does it really shines again? I mean if they Decay the Shackles your Blossom is free and vice versa.. hm :>
Sorry but this post is totally wrong. Spellstutter Sprite does nothing against Angels Grace since it has Split Second. I don't see how Grafdigger's Cage could help against Scapeshift since the only thing it does is shutting of Snapcasters.
Can you remember what 4 cards you had against Affinity?
I have two questions concerning Liliana, especially after revisiting the postet lists:
Do you generally play with Snapcaster, because the lists above didn't? I have a hard time to evaluate Liliana in Fae because we totally lack the option to break the symmetry and Snapcaster would at least give some value to discarded cards. Compared to BG/x we often don't want to simply play the spell we got (for instance dropping a Tarmogoyf) before you + her, although I understand that unneeded cards (Thoughtseize's while being low on life etc.) does work with her as well as with Pack Rat while giving other options (Edict vs. stupid beaters).
When do you usually start dropping her? I get that it will depend on the deck you're playing against, but I can't really think dropping her T3 iis that likely?
If the list is putting up results it's doing something right. If it can put up results despite the massses of lifeloss id like to see how it functions, and it's worth analysing. A lot more people are playing the ub build I imagine so that obviously shows more results, and using that as justification to ignore this list is poor logic. Even with some results, faeries is not the hyper competitive deck some of us might like to believe it is, and I certainly doubt it is solved.
Okay first of all to the second phase of this statement: The tournaments I named where only the two Grand Prix with 3(!) Fae players each. We certainly don't know what lists they were running besides the T16 appearance with UB so the real flaw of my argument was: We don't know if the T32 finish wasn't an BUG approach. I don't see how that could be traced back to "a lot more people are playing UB". I wouldn't count daily events or such, at least I havent in that statement (nor did I say we are top tier).
[quote from="Scarmask »"
Even so, i have a hunch that this BUG deck has been riding on the tails of good fortune, and two inherently strong cores, the ub fae core and the bg rock core, rather than the fact that it is a solved, synergistic deck, and i would be surprised if it continued putting up consistent high-profile results. Still, it is worth noting that it has done well, and deciphering why that is. Faeries requires innovation, and a positive attitude in that regard.
[/quote]
Now to the first half: I didn't say we shouldn't look at this list. My statement was, that the list was pretty standard BUG, which came up months ago and it had quite some discussion. When 'I said "I still don't see why going 3 color" it's based on this fact, as BUG would probably had made more waves until now (and yes, I tested BUG for a while on Cockatrice and didn't like it. Tarmogoyf did win some games but the lifeloss lost much much more). The real "innovation" in his list was going back to Vedalken Shackles but that's something that is hard to discuss for U/B as we probably won't hit enough islands to abuse it and going for fetch/shock would be useless (as we would have the lifeloss we don't want and if we would do so, we could add the third color without much additional work).
I think that investigating the lists with Liliana is much more worthwhile than going crazy over one premier event which was won by a list that could have been played months ago but probably wasn't strong enough. If you could give another point of discussion for the list, we haven't had before I would likely participate in analyzing it.
Sorry but your statement is rather useless. Of course he has success with the list, but so did standard U/B fae lists, which placed T32-T16 in the last Grand Prixs, which is much more impressive than winning a premier. I don't say the list is bad, I just say that I can't see the real reason why you should play 3 Color... maybe it allows more misplays due to Goyf being a big wall`?
Pretty standard BUG list, maybe exceot the Shackles. I still doubt that Tarmogoyf alone is worth going 3 color (Decay is nice of course, but I still don't see the really big advantage here).
Has anyone tested Pack Rat extensively? I made some games but it never did anything besides dying (which wasn't that bad because they wasted their removal) as I either lacked the cards to ditch or the mana to activate the ability.
I don't think you could really profit from Waste Not with only 6 discard spells. Besides the fact that, if I remember that right, even the 8-rack guys say Waste Not is probably not good enough for their deck.
Your evacuation scenario seems rather unrealistic as well. I mean of course you can empty their board, but against fast aggro they simply play all their stuff again in their second mainphase. You have to hit some really high cmc cards AND they need to hold some cards for that too work. I think your "nut play" will happen VERY seldom.
@Cloudseeder: I think someone already responded to that. Cloudseeder has some obvious flaws compared to Pack Rat: You can only discard 1 card (as you have to tap it.. granted, its way cheaper), if Cloudseeder gets handled you lost your ability to create tokens (Pack Rat tokens are copies, so you can keep going) and without Scion they are weaker (although they have flying). I think the standard Faeries build (so the "controlish" one) wouldn't really profit from Cloudseeder.
Well it was explained before? Switching Snapcaster (which I still think is a good inclusion but we all know he can be quite odd sometimes or simply function as a 2/1 beater .. which is my main strategy) with Pack Rat grants you some late-game finisher. Although it hasn't flash it only costs two, so you should be able to play it while still holding some counter magic up. We all know that late drawn Thoughtseizes, multiple Blossoms or way too much land can be annoying, with Pack Rat you simply create a big army of rats at the EOT of your opponent ditching unneeded cards.
I don't know if it's really worth playing, but at least it's worth testing.
First of all I want to make clear, that I am mostly thinking of the standard build most of us are using here (so no Scion) and that I really want to understand why some of you think this card could help us, so I don't want to bash anything here.
I think you are overseeing the major difference. Of course Mistbind has (at least sometimes) the same problem but it has a) a way bigger impact on the board (granted, for a much greater cmc) and it lets you remove any Faerie. I often play Mistbind when I have a Blossom out, simply because it's a good fallback target for the abbility if anything happens to your Spellstutter or whichever creature you wanted to champion. Quickling could be an auto include if it had this exact wording, but sadly that's way to specific for a core set.
Of course you will still be able to play around a blowout, I don't doubt that, but I can't really see how whe can really gain something from it. A 2/2 flash flying Fae (or even 2/1) without any text would have been better in my opinion. I really want to understand your point of view though, so can anyone point out one or two situations where you would be happy to have this in hand (or draw it) that are really impactful?
I mean I see those Quickling -> Spellstutter to hand -> Spellstutter plays but they require a huge amount of mana and at least some knowledge what your opponent could have. Quickling -> reset any Fae can be nice as well, but than again you are holding a useless card for at least 2, in most cases way more, turns? Snapcaster on the other hand opens a ton more plays, which on the other hand can be quite expensive cmc wise but he will never be dead, as he can be flashed onto an empty board simply for the beatdown.
if you're losing to blood moon, you're building your land base wrong. there is no need to run 4 of every ub dual. that's all i got for that.
anyways, did you guys see the m15 spoiler Quickling?
1U - Faerie Rouge
Flash, Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you return another creature you control to its owner's hand.
2/2
if only it was U and a 2/1. but either way, worth some consideration in a scion build, or it may take snapcaster slots in a mistbind build. i am excited for this card.
I'm not totally excited at the moment. As a Faerie Impostor with flash it would have been slightly better but than again, the sacrifice part can lead to blowouts.. if it was "return a creature to your hand" it would be WAY better. I can see it being used efficiently in a Scion build, but I don't think it's really worth Snapcasters Slots in a "controlish" one. I may be blatantly wrong though.
Edit: I would love the card if it simply said "return another Faerie to your hand" though.. another way of stopping Bitterblossom from bleeding you out would have been amazing.
I would emphasize the use of Sword of Fire and Ice instead of mentioning Light and Shadow. SoFaI makes everything you could want from an aggressive option, as it adds 4 (instead of 2) to your clock while drawing cards. Not the most significant Protection, but hey.
I don't know how you guys are using your manlands but I often only attack if I a) have enough resources to react even though i tapped that much mana (at least for Creeping Tar Pit) or b) I don't have any action left, so the potential "blowout" doesn't mean much. I just ask because I still can't really see why Feast and Famine should be that much superior because it untaps. I think it could lead to more blowouts if your critter simply won't hit and you counted on the untap effect which leaves you defensless (if you don't have anything SoFaI would be superior either way?)
The other points vonklaude mentioned are quite spot on in my opinion.
Well Twin and Scapeshift shouldn't be an issue with either version. Jund is as grindy as it gets while I think every version has it's problems against Pod and Affinity, although both decks HIGHLY depend on their pilot and starting hands. You can't really compete with turn 1 Plating from Affinity with either version while a slow hand is backbreaking for them.
What I want to say is: There probably is no right version for either meta as it's not only dependant on your opponents but also on your draw (and prefered play style). I often think about Scion as a 2-of but can't really bring myself to test it because it seems that you either have to play 4 or 0 to get decent effects.
I tested Liliana the past week and while there were times where she was awesome (especially against UWR) I often held one and didn't want to drop her for several reasons (kind of short on mana for intance). Especially in the harder matchups I didn't really liked her, so it's probably another matter of taste here. Maybe we get Ancestral Visions back soon, which would easily solve all of MY problems with the controlish version of Fae.
Of course some of the scenarios you described sound great, but it seems that your opponent does nothing as well... kind of magical christmas land. You forget the most important part here: You have to have a creature AND Quickling (and I guess we all agree that even if you are playing him, it wouldn't be 4 copies) AND your opponent can't have removal. You effectively need more than 1 creature to prevent the 2-1 trade (flash Quickling and in response your other creature gets bolted or something). Point 5. can only withstand instant speed removal if you have enough mana and well.. all of these cards.
Nobody says there can't be situations in which this card seems amazing but it has the worse ETB-clause (compared to Mistbind where you can happily take your blossom) AND the worse-ETB effect as well while it would make starting hands really awkward if you get any number of Quicklings + Mistbinds. Of course anyone willing may try it as he likes but I think its WAY to situational.
The worst they did so far was hitting the board just to eat a removal spell right afterwards, which is still incredibly fine with me most of the time. I don't really see why they should be better in 8-rack or such because it does nothing for their gameplan while giving us a really solid plan b.
Can you remember what 4 cards you had against Affinity?
Do you generally play with Snapcaster, because the lists above didn't? I have a hard time to evaluate Liliana in Fae because we totally lack the option to break the symmetry and Snapcaster would at least give some value to discarded cards. Compared to BG/x we often don't want to simply play the spell we got (for instance dropping a Tarmogoyf) before you + her, although I understand that unneeded cards (Thoughtseize's while being low on life etc.) does work with her as well as with Pack Rat while giving other options (Edict vs. stupid beaters).
When do you usually start dropping her? I get that it will depend on the deck you're playing against, but I can't really think dropping her T3 iis that likely?
Okay first of all to the second phase of this statement: The tournaments I named where only the two Grand Prix with 3(!) Fae players each. We certainly don't know what lists they were running besides the T16 appearance with UB so the real flaw of my argument was: We don't know if the T32 finish wasn't an BUG approach. I don't see how that could be traced back to "a lot more people are playing UB". I wouldn't count daily events or such, at least I havent in that statement (nor did I say we are top tier).
[quote from="Scarmask »"
Even so, i have a hunch that this BUG deck has been riding on the tails of good fortune, and two inherently strong cores, the ub fae core and the bg rock core, rather than the fact that it is a solved, synergistic deck, and i would be surprised if it continued putting up consistent high-profile results. Still, it is worth noting that it has done well, and deciphering why that is. Faeries requires innovation, and a positive attitude in that regard.
[/quote]
Now to the first half: I didn't say we shouldn't look at this list. My statement was, that the list was pretty standard BUG, which came up months ago and it had quite some discussion. When 'I said "I still don't see why going 3 color" it's based on this fact, as BUG would probably had made more waves until now (and yes, I tested BUG for a while on Cockatrice and didn't like it. Tarmogoyf did win some games but the lifeloss lost much much more). The real "innovation" in his list was going back to Vedalken Shackles but that's something that is hard to discuss for U/B as we probably won't hit enough islands to abuse it and going for fetch/shock would be useless (as we would have the lifeloss we don't want and if we would do so, we could add the third color without much additional work).
I think that investigating the lists with Liliana is much more worthwhile than going crazy over one premier event which was won by a list that could have been played months ago but probably wasn't strong enough. If you could give another point of discussion for the list, we haven't had before I would likely participate in analyzing it.
Has anyone tested Pack Rat extensively? I made some games but it never did anything besides dying (which wasn't that bad because they wasted their removal) as I either lacked the cards to ditch or the mana to activate the ability.
Your evacuation scenario seems rather unrealistic as well. I mean of course you can empty their board, but against fast aggro they simply play all their stuff again in their second mainphase. You have to hit some really high cmc cards AND they need to hold some cards for that too work. I think your "nut play" will happen VERY seldom.
@Cloudseeder: I think someone already responded to that. Cloudseeder has some obvious flaws compared to Pack Rat: You can only discard 1 card (as you have to tap it.. granted, its way cheaper), if Cloudseeder gets handled you lost your ability to create tokens (Pack Rat tokens are copies, so you can keep going) and without Scion they are weaker (although they have flying). I think the standard Faeries build (so the "controlish" one) wouldn't really profit from Cloudseeder.
I don't know if it's really worth playing, but at least it's worth testing.
I think you are overseeing the major difference. Of course Mistbind has (at least sometimes) the same problem but it has a) a way bigger impact on the board (granted, for a much greater cmc) and it lets you remove any Faerie. I often play Mistbind when I have a Blossom out, simply because it's a good fallback target for the abbility if anything happens to your Spellstutter or whichever creature you wanted to champion. Quickling could be an auto include if it had this exact wording, but sadly that's way to specific for a core set.
Of course you will still be able to play around a blowout, I don't doubt that, but I can't really see how whe can really gain something from it. A 2/2 flash flying Fae (or even 2/1) without any text would have been better in my opinion. I really want to understand your point of view though, so can anyone point out one or two situations where you would be happy to have this in hand (or draw it) that are really impactful?
I mean I see those Quickling -> Spellstutter to hand -> Spellstutter plays but they require a huge amount of mana and at least some knowledge what your opponent could have. Quickling -> reset any Fae can be nice as well, but than again you are holding a useless card for at least 2, in most cases way more, turns? Snapcaster on the other hand opens a ton more plays, which on the other hand can be quite expensive cmc wise but he will never be dead, as he can be flashed onto an empty board simply for the beatdown.
I'm not totally excited at the moment. As a Faerie Impostor with flash it would have been slightly better but than again, the sacrifice part can lead to blowouts.. if it was "return a creature to your hand" it would be WAY better. I can see it being used efficiently in a Scion build, but I don't think it's really worth Snapcasters Slots in a "controlish" one. I may be blatantly wrong though.
Edit: I would love the card if it simply said "return another Faerie to your hand" though.. another way of stopping Bitterblossom from bleeding you out would have been amazing.
I don't know how you guys are using your manlands but I often only attack if I a) have enough resources to react even though i tapped that much mana (at least for Creeping Tar Pit) or b) I don't have any action left, so the potential "blowout" doesn't mean much. I just ask because I still can't really see why Feast and Famine should be that much superior because it untaps. I think it could lead to more blowouts if your critter simply won't hit and you counted on the untap effect which leaves you defensless (if you don't have anything SoFaI would be superior either way?)
The other points vonklaude mentioned are quite spot on in my opinion.