@hardKOrr and skyfalcon: That's what I thought as well, but in reality I'm somewhat struggling against them. R/G Tron always felt better due to the fact, that you can simply do your thing without worrying. Especially 1-2 Mistbind Cliques save the game easily... something which is much harder to achieve against U-Tron. Maybe I had just bad luck in the last testing sessions (and I've seen my partner to draw quite nice.. but that can happen and shouldn't affect the matchup in general). I will see how the next times play out, since you basically backed my thoughts.
We discussed RG Tron and I feel it is pretty manageable, but now I have to play against mono blue tron more often.It`s probably doable but I have some troubles because they always seem to have their counters/repeals. How do you feel about it?
I always found Cage to be the matchmaker as they have to play fair after it hit the board. Of course you have to look out for Qasali Pridemage/Reclamation Sage but hindering Pod is huge. Postboard Voice wasn't that big of a problem if you have Sower (take their Dude and block for a free */* critter ... and be wary that this won't work with a persist dude!). Even if you have the Cage, it's mostly right to kill the Mana Dork T1 if you can (given you were on the draw) as Finks T2 aren't that funny as well.
Negate vs. Pod seems quite strange, as you mostly hit pod and chord, but the problems often are their dudes.. so why bother?
I would probably lean towards no, it was basically sweet tech that worked for a week. Its much more on peoples radar now (not that it will stop them from dropping a bird on turn 1) to play around.
I cant really imagine a world where turning a V.Clique into a 1/3 is going to be overly beneficial either as 4 is probably the magic number (Exarch)
The reason why I dislike Twisted Image in Fae isn't that people are now more or less aware of it, but it's "useless" against a whole lot of creatures the other spells are good against. The main reason for 1-mana removal may be Mana Dorks, but you can kill nearly everything in Affinity with those as well (just as an example). Tragic Slip may need some help but it gets rid of everything, Disfigure can handle most of their creatures while Twisted Image only kills Ornithopter (mostly irrelevant) and Signal Pest.
I would consider Peppersmoke over Twisted Image if your goal is to mainly kill Mana Dorks with the cc1 removal (with Dismember as a costly backup). It can kill all of those, while still being useful against Affinity, Bob, Snapcaster etc. while it CAN net you a card as well. Not that I want to say it's good right now, but probably a better choice than Twisted Image.
Okay, two facts here: A singleton swamp can be quite good against opposing Blood Moons and doesn't really hurt your manabase, so it's fine to run it.
I don't know who the hell told you, that you aren't allowed to play a Vendilion Clique in your turn, but please stop making bold statements newbies to the deck might take to seriously. I mean there are several reasons why you might play a Vendilion Clique in your turn, especially against counterheavy decks if they are tapped out.
Edit: BTW Fetchlands do nothing do River of Tears as it says "When you played a land this turn" ... a land only enters the battlefield with Fetchlands, it's not played.
What I don't understand about this "I actively chose not to run discard" part is: You are saying, you want to draw removal instead, but you are playing the standard 5 removal... so you are actively choosing to have less answers? Oo
Example last friday at my LGS I had a game where I literally only swung with manlands (vault early tarpit after) G1 and blocked with tokens until I dropped sword and then I finished the game on T6 because he had no answers. G2 I opened Mutavault, T2 Thoughtseize, T3 IoK swing vault, T4 held up mistbind-tapped him out T5 dropped sword attached to mistbind and said good luck in your next match.
How did you cast that Mistbind on T4? I might be missing something.
I actually like the list Ari posted. Thought about playing Slaughter Pact for a while now and I guess I'm going to try it. Not a fan of Damnation in the sideboard, but sometimes that's a necessary evil. I think the list can have the necessary edge over aggro Decks and I'm going to test it for a while.
Edit: made some games... never came to casting Scion but the deck felt good. It's basically what I was playing before Pack Rat + Scion - Swords so not a big deal. Slaughter Pact is as amazing as I initially thought but I always was scared of the 3 upkeep cost (which don't really matter luckily). I would recommend testing something along those lines if you had problems with the "control" shell.
How is it even possible to lose to UWR control? That has more to with skill than deckbuilding. UWR variants, and especially UWR Kiki-control, are our easiest matchups.
This, I lost about 2-3 matches against UWR out of 30+. I would say, you played the deck wrong if you had issues, but that doesn't mean that the tempo version can't work. I said multiple times in this thread, that the Fae core IS capable of adapting to multiple playstyles and you have to find the one that suits you best, so everything is fine. I like the tempo list, but I can see problems if you have a mediocre start there.
I can't even imagine how the Fae "Control" Core should has problems against UWR, especially if you're playing Liliana - and on the other side i don't see how she should polish up the aggro matchup, although it's granted she buys at least two turns.
I wanted to ask another question, as that happened multiple times during the weekend on cockatrice: What do you do against Vedalken Shackles?
Spell Snare is only worse on the play and against Mana Dorks but way better against Tron and UWR. Disfigure cant kill most of the critical Creatures and dismember is practically a 1cc spell if necessary. You should be able to see when to go for it and when not. You should be careful with the lifeloss but otp its isually ok to turn 2 dismember for 2 life
Being that mutavault is all creature types if you had a rat in play late game and animated mutavault he would be a rat. Well they respond with removal you flash in scion to save vault (he is also a faerie). Every turn after providing everything lives as is mutavault would be total number of rats and +1 from scion. So I'd imagine they work nice together in that scenario. Time warp just seems like a good sideboard card honestly, until you verify your opponent isn't using U in their mana base for counters.
I know that Mutavault has all creature types rather well, and I did not miss that interaction but all in all I still wouldn't advice playing both of them in the same deck. I don't think that the +1 from Scion is worth running both just because you swing for N*N (where N is number of rats) + 3 from Mutavault. 'I mean of course there are scenarios which make it seem worthwhile running both, but they are rather rare.
Scion CAN blank removal of course, but how many times will that be relevant, especially in a 2/2 split (remember: In your scenario both Scion and a Pack Rat are in play)? Let's be honest Rats and Scion don't synergize the slightest (well... maybe if you count ditching Scion to the Rats). Scion needs a high number of Faeries (one of the reasons why Scion is rather a 4-of then less if you have the slots), a number which is harder to reach if you play Pack Rats (unless you are cutting other relevant spells like counter/removal/discard).
I won't judge anyone trying to play both, but I thought I point out the flaws of this strategy so you can be aware of them.
According to pod: Responding to a cmc 1 Pod activation is even relevant when you don't play Snapcaster. I mean I played my V. Clique countless times after they wanted to Pod, as their first fetch will be Voice of Resurgence (unless they desperately need the lifegain from Ooze).
Update on the deck for GP Worcester: I'm testing the deck with 2 time warps, and the card is surprisingly good. I also have 2 pack rats and 2 scions which seem fine.
I guess I have to try some more games with Time Warp, although I think it's not for our deck. The thing I wanted to say is: Although either Pack Rats and Scions are probably playable, I wouldn't make a split between them. I mean, you say you have trouble making cuts and you would have two open slots if you ditch one of them, as they don't really work well together and either part should be sufficient to grind out games.
What's wrong with Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Spell Snare or Disfigure as our 1 cc spells?
How many decks actually put down a threat on turn 1? We are not aggro.
The suggestion of Oona's Gatewarden is just plumbing new depths of terrible ideas for this thread.
For those that haven't tried it, I would suggest giving Pack Rats a go and dropping Scion and Snapcaster.
Have to quote this to underline it. The Idea of "needing" a one-drop staggered me. Of course we might think about it IF there was some busted Fae coming, but that won't be happening. I don't get why people think we have to play an aggro game as the only thing that the deck is missing is some game-ending trump (which surely won't be a 1cc Fae).
Here we come to ThatStoryTellers idea of Runechanter's Pike: I thought about that card as well, as it's quite nice cc wise but I don't really liked it because with only 18-20 spells it won't be a big pump most of the time. I mean, even Delver decks with 24+ instants and sorceries discussed and dismissed it. Sword of Fire and Ice costs way more, but grants you way more advantage once you start hitting as it gives protection, swings for 4 (at max.) and draws a card, but it's way harder to drop&equip // equip&protect.
Can somebody elaborate on WHY Time Warp is considered this "awesome" (for instance spellcheck, as you advocated right above me :P)? A 5 mana sorcery does not sound that good, especially if the only way you are going to resolve it against blue decks is a resolved Mistbind Clique beforehand. I mean, I can see the blowout potential the card has but is it really neccessary to fill your deck with sorcery speed that costs a fortune when you are basically taking a mulligan everytime it's in your opener?
Because I read it in another thread and I hope germanturkey does read it here: I don't really see the big problem with Tron, which shall not mean it's an easy matchup. The game against Tron is at least 50/50 as I see it, whereas you have to find the perfect balance between pressure and control. If you know what you're up against check your opener if it's able to prevent Karn (so discard or mana leak is appreciated) AND is able to put on a little pressure (for instance Vendilion Clique), if not mulligan. Depending on the board state it's a valid choice to counter their landsearch (Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying and so on). It's your job to win as fast as possible, don't let them play the long game as this are the games you are likely to loose. Sideboarded Sower of Temptation is tech here!
Which leads me the questions above:
Pack Rat as a 2 of or 4.
I like them as a two of, but wouldn't play 4. The reason is simple: It's considered a back up plan for games without blossoms/games that go long so you can ditch unneeded copies of discard and so on. So basically you have 6 "blossoms" now which should be enough to warrant a nice turn 2 play without watering down your lategame too much where you may want 1 rat, but drawing multiples seems bad here, as you can convert everything into another rat, so why bother with a simple creature?
Mistbind Clique as a 2, 3 or 4.
Highly depends on your play style, but I wouldn't go under 3. It's basically how you are closing games out, so you want to draw at least one. Against Tron chaining Mistbinds simply wins the game as well. 4 Might be too much (at least for me) because of it's ETB trigger dependency.
Time Warp
Well, I guess I said everything above, but I would love to see the potential some here see in it explained a bit further. On the first look it seems to be win more and/or magical christmas land scenarios?
Sword of FaF and/or FaI
I would opt for FaI because it has a WAY higher impact on the board. In my latest games I wasn't that happy to have it though, so I am looking for something to replace it with because the 3+2 mana is hard at times. I was playing 1.
Scion of Oona
Still think it has to less impact most of the times. When it's good, it's because of Blossom, but then you are probably going to win anyways, so I don't really know here.
Snapcaster Mage
Don't really like him anymore. The ambush viper mode is way to fragile in modern most of the time and the flashback of counterspells/discard doesn't seem worth it. Still can understand people that are playing him though, at least as a 2-of.
Sower of Temptation seems a common sideboard card now, what are our experiences with it?
I really love my 2 Sower of Temptation out of the board especially against Tron but it won me a few games against Pod as well.
Go on and try Pack Rats in a PTQ, though, if you really want to lose.
I played two in my PTQ and was quite happy with them. The worst thing that happened was an overloaded Cyclonic Rift (which I completely forgot existed) and that's it. I wouldn't run 4 though, especially not with Liliana as, in my opinion, you can only support one of them. Pack Rat can get out of hand rather quickly, even in Fae, because two rats + mutavault for instance is a nice clock, although I can see reasons for playing Snapcaster/Scion in that slot.
I dont get why you bash every reasonable idea in Fae but on the other hand promote cards like Delay? I mean, why on earth would you want to play a temporary solution that let's them cast the card for free again?
You are right, that the rest of the premier event seems quite strange though.
We discussed RG Tron and I feel it is pretty manageable, but now I have to play against mono blue tron more often.It`s probably doable but I have some troubles because they always seem to have their counters/repeals. How do you feel about it?
Negate vs. Pod seems quite strange, as you mostly hit pod and chord, but the problems often are their dudes.. so why bother?
The reason why I dislike Twisted Image in Fae isn't that people are now more or less aware of it, but it's "useless" against a whole lot of creatures the other spells are good against. The main reason for 1-mana removal may be Mana Dorks, but you can kill nearly everything in Affinity with those as well (just as an example). Tragic Slip may need some help but it gets rid of everything, Disfigure can handle most of their creatures while Twisted Image only kills Ornithopter (mostly irrelevant) and Signal Pest.
I would consider Peppersmoke over Twisted Image if your goal is to mainly kill Mana Dorks with the cc1 removal (with Dismember as a costly backup). It can kill all of those, while still being useful against Affinity, Bob, Snapcaster etc. while it CAN net you a card as well. Not that I want to say it's good right now, but probably a better choice than Twisted Image.
I don't know who the hell told you, that you aren't allowed to play a Vendilion Clique in your turn, but please stop making bold statements newbies to the deck might take to seriously. I mean there are several reasons why you might play a Vendilion Clique in your turn, especially against counterheavy decks if they are tapped out.
Edit: BTW Fetchlands do nothing do River of Tears as it says "When you played a land this turn" ... a land only enters the battlefield with Fetchlands, it's not played.
How did you cast that Mistbind on T4? I might be missing something.
Edit: made some games... never came to casting Scion but the deck felt good. It's basically what I was playing before Pack Rat + Scion - Swords so not a big deal. Slaughter Pact is as amazing as I initially thought but I always was scared of the 3 upkeep cost (which don't really matter luckily). I would recommend testing something along those lines if you had problems with the "control" shell.
This, I lost about 2-3 matches against UWR out of 30+. I would say, you played the deck wrong if you had issues, but that doesn't mean that the tempo version can't work. I said multiple times in this thread, that the Fae core IS capable of adapting to multiple playstyles and you have to find the one that suits you best, so everything is fine. I like the tempo list, but I can see problems if you have a mediocre start there.
I can't even imagine how the Fae "Control" Core should has problems against UWR, especially if you're playing Liliana - and on the other side i don't see how she should polish up the aggro matchup, although it's granted she buys at least two turns.
I wanted to ask another question, as that happened multiple times during the weekend on cockatrice: What do you do against Vedalken Shackles?
I know that Mutavault has all creature types rather well, and I did not miss that interaction but all in all I still wouldn't advice playing both of them in the same deck. I don't think that the +1 from Scion is worth running both just because you swing for N*N (where N is number of rats) + 3 from Mutavault. 'I mean of course there are scenarios which make it seem worthwhile running both, but they are rather rare.
Scion CAN blank removal of course, but how many times will that be relevant, especially in a 2/2 split (remember: In your scenario both Scion and a Pack Rat are in play)? Let's be honest Rats and Scion don't synergize the slightest (well... maybe if you count ditching Scion to the Rats). Scion needs a high number of Faeries (one of the reasons why Scion is rather a 4-of then less if you have the slots), a number which is harder to reach if you play Pack Rats (unless you are cutting other relevant spells like counter/removal/discard).
I won't judge anyone trying to play both, but I thought I point out the flaws of this strategy so you can be aware of them.
According to pod: Responding to a cmc 1 Pod activation is even relevant when you don't play Snapcaster. I mean I played my V. Clique countless times after they wanted to Pod, as their first fetch will be Voice of Resurgence (unless they desperately need the lifegain from Ooze).
I guess I have to try some more games with Time Warp, although I think it's not for our deck. The thing I wanted to say is: Although either Pack Rats and Scions are probably playable, I wouldn't make a split between them. I mean, you say you have trouble making cuts and you would have two open slots if you ditch one of them, as they don't really work well together and either part should be sufficient to grind out games.
Have to quote this to underline it. The Idea of "needing" a one-drop staggered me. Of course we might think about it IF there was some busted Fae coming, but that won't be happening. I don't get why people think we have to play an aggro game as the only thing that the deck is missing is some game-ending trump (which surely won't be a 1cc Fae).
Here we come to ThatStoryTellers idea of Runechanter's Pike: I thought about that card as well, as it's quite nice cc wise but I don't really liked it because with only 18-20 spells it won't be a big pump most of the time. I mean, even Delver decks with 24+ instants and sorceries discussed and dismissed it. Sword of Fire and Ice costs way more, but grants you way more advantage once you start hitting as it gives protection, swings for 4 (at max.) and draws a card, but it's way harder to drop&equip // equip&protect.
Because I read it in another thread and I hope germanturkey does read it here: I don't really see the big problem with Tron, which shall not mean it's an easy matchup. The game against Tron is at least 50/50 as I see it, whereas you have to find the perfect balance between pressure and control. If you know what you're up against check your opener if it's able to prevent Karn (so discard or mana leak is appreciated) AND is able to put on a little pressure (for instance Vendilion Clique), if not mulligan. Depending on the board state it's a valid choice to counter their landsearch (Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying and so on). It's your job to win as fast as possible, don't let them play the long game as this are the games you are likely to loose. Sideboarded Sower of Temptation is tech here!
Which leads me the questions above:
Pack Rat as a 2 of or 4.
I like them as a two of, but wouldn't play 4. The reason is simple: It's considered a back up plan for games without blossoms/games that go long so you can ditch unneeded copies of discard and so on. So basically you have 6 "blossoms" now which should be enough to warrant a nice turn 2 play without watering down your lategame too much where you may want 1 rat, but drawing multiples seems bad here, as you can convert everything into another rat, so why bother with a simple creature?
Mistbind Clique as a 2, 3 or 4.
Highly depends on your play style, but I wouldn't go under 3. It's basically how you are closing games out, so you want to draw at least one. Against Tron chaining Mistbinds simply wins the game as well. 4 Might be too much (at least for me) because of it's ETB trigger dependency.
Time Warp
Well, I guess I said everything above, but I would love to see the potential some here see in it explained a bit further. On the first look it seems to be win more and/or magical christmas land scenarios?
Sword of FaF and/or FaI
I would opt for FaI because it has a WAY higher impact on the board. In my latest games I wasn't that happy to have it though, so I am looking for something to replace it with because the 3+2 mana is hard at times. I was playing 1.
Scion of Oona
Still think it has to less impact most of the times. When it's good, it's because of Blossom, but then you are probably going to win anyways, so I don't really know here.
Snapcaster Mage
Don't really like him anymore. The ambush viper mode is way to fragile in modern most of the time and the flashback of counterspells/discard doesn't seem worth it. Still can understand people that are playing him though, at least as a 2-of.
Sower of Temptation seems a common sideboard card now, what are our experiences with it?
I really love my 2 Sower of Temptation out of the board especially against Tron but it won me a few games against Pod as well.
I played two in my PTQ and was quite happy with them. The worst thing that happened was an overloaded Cyclonic Rift (which I completely forgot existed) and that's it. I wouldn't run 4 though, especially not with Liliana as, in my opinion, you can only support one of them. Pack Rat can get out of hand rather quickly, even in Fae, because two rats + mutavault for instance is a nice clock, although I can see reasons for playing Snapcaster/Scion in that slot.
I dont get why you bash every reasonable idea in Fae but on the other hand promote cards like Delay? I mean, why on earth would you want to play a temporary solution that let's them cast the card for free again?
You are right, that the rest of the premier event seems quite strange though.