You have definitely been the heart and soul of this subforum. For years, you have been the one who managed to impose rationality on the banlist discussion thread, and that is no small feat. You will be missed.
So what is a good finisher. In my mind a cheap beatstick with counterspell back-up and an open battlefield should do the job. Celestial Colonnade was almost perfect, except it does get expensive. GoST needs evasion to get through most of the time. Delver is a little slow. Tas and ANgler tax your yard something fierce, making it hard to recover if one is lost. Thing in Ice more or less spawned its own deck but would require to much time and protection to really be viable in control. Torrential Gearhulk is a little pricy at 6. Gideon is a little slow at 5.
See, in my mind everybody is trying to end games way to early for control. Control never used to win on turn 4 or 5 or 6. Earliest I would consider for control is like turn 8.
Personally, I like using either the Gifts/Unburial Rites or Madcap/Emperion combos as win-cons. They can be played early enough to help you stabilize against decks like Affinity and Burn and are far more powerful than a "fair" finisher would be. They do take up a couple of extra card slots, but I'd say that is worth it.
The main cause of my negative reactions towards the set might just be due to the fact that they did the toning-down with this block, instead of say, a return block thats already well established (zendikar, innistrad, ravnica, you get the idea). Introducing the much awaited egyptian plane with new gods and the return of bolas got me (and I assume others?) really pumped, until I saw how weak most of the cards were. Throw in some ugly as **** expeditions, horrible split cards (both in terms of layout and playability) and absurdly boring, underwhelming gods and the disappointment is perfect.
Toning down the power is a good and necessary thing, no one that cares for the health of the game should want constant power-creep. Getting one Kaladesh after another would damage the game pretty quickly, i think. Thing is just that every consecutive set has to have the relative same power level as Amonkhet so the drop in power can be seen long-term. It's just that Kaladesh is completely overshadowing other blocks and will most likely do so for the rest of its lifespan in standard, unless we get a block that's at least on par with it. And if I'm seeing this correctly, it's even worse for Amonkhet, since it will rotate together with Kaladesh since they reverted back to old rotation, right?
Then again I might completely misjudge this set. Perhaps all the gods are really playable and Amonkhet has lots of good rares that will make a strong impact on standard. It's just... that I can't force myself to believe that.
It doesn't help that Theros was also an underpowered set, so we've only been able to experience gods and mythology in weak sets.
I'm not sure what the deck would look like, but there has to be a playable deck that someone can make with Bedlam Reveler, Engima Drake, and Cryptic Serpent in Standard.
This has to be fake. Right now, you can play a turn 2 Channeler Initiate, play a turn 3 Nissa, -2 Nissa, draw 2 cards, and have a 3/4 and a planswalker with 1 loyalty left after drawing 2 cards.
I wonder, then, why more Standard players aren't using Horribly Awry? It costs 1U and counters then exiles creature spells with a cmc <= 4, a condition which hits at least 85% of the creatures in the two largest archetypes in the format right now. *shrug* A rhetorical question only which does not actually require a response.
Judging this card based on it's merits in Modern alone is completely missing the point. Of course it's bad (I think?) in Modern, I'm mainly interested in it's applications in Standard. Blue is currently doing fine in Modern but really needs the push in Standard. This alone probably won't cut it but it is an interesting card, much more so then the fifty shades of Cancel we've been getting for the past decade or so.
How is blue doing fine in Modern but is weak in Standard? In Standard, Copycat (which plays a decent amount of blue) is arguably the best deck and 8 of the top 50 cards (including 4 of the top 10) are blue. In Modern, the only tier 1 blue decks (as of the last metagame breakdown on Modern Nexus) are Affinity and Bant Eldrazi, neither of which are really blue decks, and only 3 of the top 50 (and 1 of the top 10) cards are blue.
Perhaps I should reiterate. When I say "blue" I mostly mean "draw-go-control". You just don't have that prominent blue control decks in Standard. Temur tower is kind of there but just out of reach. There are, however, reasonable blue control decks in Modern (take the latest Modern GP as an example), at least in my experience.
While we are on the subject of Top cards how many cards in the Top 50 would you consider to be enough evidence that a color isn't sidelined in the format? 15%? More?
At the very least 10%, and probably closer to 15%.
Why are we talking about Modern? These cards are for Standard.
ACTUALLY these kind of statements are so wrong on such a level. New cards from a product from WotC are always analyzed for:
Standard
Limited
Sealed
Block
Duel Commander
Multiplayer Commander
Pauper
Pauper Highlander
Pauper Commander
Peasant
Peasant Highlander
Peasant Commander
Horde
Tiny Leader
Frontier
Modern
Legacy
Vintage
Two-Headed Giant
Emperor
Cube
Casual
Because every time new cards are added to the pool of preexisting cards, they will be judged for every format. So anyone who is like "But modern is not relevant to the discussion" is frankly dead wrong on the subject matter and doesn't understand that designing cards for only one format is one of the most ludicrous and laughable things in the entire thing that is MTG if its not a set like Conspiracy.
Next thing to beat into submission is: the Drake Haven argument. Everyone who states its "U: 2/2 flying drake. Draw a card." is frankly wrong. It actually is "1U: 2/2 flying drake. Discard a card, then draw a card". Meaning it costs you one mana more and the card draw is a +0 gain. The only gain to be had is that it makes, for a +1 bonus, is the drake.
Third thing to nip in the bud: To those that actually defend this counterspell in standard, this is the worst counterspell in the format right now. Its only saving grace is that you would cycle it. As it might as well not have the 1U mana cost, instant typing, or couterspell text. Seriously whats next? A non-cycling version of Spell Snip?
Fourth argument to destroy: That counterspells should be. Frankly this line of thinking is so awful and unwanted that it spread into other design/development sections of how MTG functions. Seriously. Has anyone noticed the fact that in the T2/Standard that we have right now that there is no instant/flash-speed artifact removal for red. That there seems to be a massive lacking of Mass Artifact removal in standard? Its why Fatal Push is as good as it is right now because WotC has been so staunchly against making good removal spells in order to not ruin the "newcomer's fun" that it ruins the fun for eveyone else and we are in the situation right now where Shock is considered great for the sole purpose of dealing with Saheeli and her 9001 cats, SHOCK of all things that is normally seen as a weaker burn spell is getting praise because we are in such a drought of good counter/removal spells. I am totally that advocate who at this point would absolutely love even something like a Granulate, Meltdown, or even a Fracturing Gust at sorcery speed, because T2 is suffering this badly. This is the reason we have "fun police" cards to ensure a healthy format and such a format also needs a careful amount of such cards but also strong so they can ensure that certain decks don't get out of hand.
Also just as a disclamier: I don't like blue. I'm a red+green player. But you know what? I will defend it because I can feel the ripple effects of it getting nerfed into this sorry state when my artifact, creature,enchantment and land removal is this weak as well in the format.
I wouldn't say that this is unplayable in Standard. However, I think that that is the problem. This really shouldn't be a good card in Standard because it is so weak, but since there are no better options in Standard, it probably will be.
Why can't we have a strong counterspell for the format?
Just out of curiosity, then, what are your criteria for being a strong counterspell? The question is non-format-specific but I think most of us can agree that a strong counterspell in Standard will look differently than a strong counterspell in Modern.
Something that is essentially a 2-mana hard-counterspell for a large portion of the format or something like Mana Leak that has extra benefits. Here are some examples of that.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 4.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Scry 2
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Kicker 1R: This card deals 2 damage to target creature or player
WU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 3
You gain 3 life
X
Instant
Spend only blue mana on X.
This card is blue.
Counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less.
Judging this card based on it's merits in Modern alone is completely missing the point. Of course it's bad (I think?) in Modern, I'm mainly interested in it's applications in Standard. Blue is currently doing fine in Modern but really needs the push in Standard. This alone probably won't cut it but it is an interesting card, much more so then the fifty shades of Cancel we've been getting for the past decade or so.
How is blue doing fine in Modern but is weak in Standard? In Standard, Copycat (which plays a decent amount of blue) is arguably the best deck and 8 of the top 50 cards (including 4 of the top 10) are blue. In Modern, the only tier 1 blue decks (as of the last metagame breakdown on Modern Nexus) are Affinity and Bant Eldrazi, neither of which are really blue decks, and only 3 of the top 50 (and 1 of the top 10) cards are blue.
I wanted to trigger discussion in regards to a lot of comments i've been reading as the spoilers unfold.
Most folks seem to be geared towards really hating the power level of the cards that are in Amonkhet. I find this to be a little ironic since pretty much everyone hates standard right now due to the ridiculous amount of over powered threats present (and very little answers).
If we look at how this set is designed, it was meant to come in as BFZ was rotating (pre change). This would have been a very welcomed addition to standard as we are leaving a format with oppressive cards. However, this isn't really mitigated with the fact that Kaladesh block also contains a ridiculous number of over powered cards.
My point is that personally, i gladly welcome a powering down of standard. The power creep was getting to a point where i don't think it's either healthy or sustainable. This is the first standard format in a long time where i have zero interest in playing outside of PPTQs since no one is playing anything remotely fun (I play 4 color cat because that's the deck i've had the most success with - kind of like how there was no point in not playing Emrakul previously).
What i don't get is why folks are so unhappy with this? It's not kamigawa level either. I'd love to know why people are actually upset at the powering down and the fact that the cards require building around and can, hopefully, lead to actual games of magic.
All i see is people who ***** regardless of what gets printed. It's depressing.
I'd be fine with them reducing the power of threats if they actually were willing to print strong answers. Instead, we have a set with about as many Modern-playables as Theros had.
True. That's why I said it will probably get hit with a ban if it stays at that percentage or higher until the next banlist update.
I really hope it doesn't. The DS variants are hardly busted. I don't even think the card is that efficient and sets a good standard for the Modern meta. I always enjoyed watching different flavors of Delver in legacy go head to head against each other. Although there have similar cards they have some subtle intricacies that make them different from one another.
I really think DS brings that dimension to the Modern metagame. To be quite honest, I believe that almost everyone is happier with this new meta than the typical non-interactive bash of my 10 cards against your 10 cards that we have been having in Modern for the last few months.
I hope that they unban more interactive cards instead of banning cards from an interactive deck, but there is precedence to banning a component of a deck once it in its various forms reaches this metashare.
Personally, I like using either the Gifts/Unburial Rites or Madcap/Emperion combos as win-cons. They can be played early enough to help you stabilize against decks like Affinity and Burn and are far more powerful than a "fair" finisher would be. They do take up a couple of extra card slots, but I'd say that is worth it.
It doesn't help that Theros was also an underpowered set, so we've only been able to experience gods and mythology in weak sets.
Besides, it says "another card." I don't think you can scry at all off of it.
The zombies are also awesome, especially Plague Belcher.
It missing Heart of Kiran, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Saheeli Rai is a pretty big problem.
At the very least 10%, and probably closer to 15%.
I wouldn't say that this is unplayable in Standard. However, I think that that is the problem. This really shouldn't be a good card in Standard because it is so weak, but since there are no better options in Standard, it probably will be.
Something that is essentially a 2-mana hard-counterspell for a large portion of the format or something like Mana Leak that has extra benefits. Here are some examples of that.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
1U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 4.
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Scry 2
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2.
Kicker 1R: This card deals 2 damage to target creature or player
WU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its control pays 3
You gain 3 life
X
Instant
Spend only blue mana on X.
This card is blue.
Counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less.
Miscalculation
Prohibit
How is blue doing fine in Modern but is weak in Standard? In Standard, Copycat (which plays a decent amount of blue) is arguably the best deck and 8 of the top 50 cards (including 4 of the top 10) are blue. In Modern, the only tier 1 blue decks (as of the last metagame breakdown on Modern Nexus) are Affinity and Bant Eldrazi, neither of which are really blue decks, and only 3 of the top 50 (and 1 of the top 10) cards are blue.
I'd be fine with them reducing the power of threats if they actually were willing to print strong answers. Instead, we have a set with about as many Modern-playables as Theros had.
I hope that they unban more interactive cards instead of banning cards from an interactive deck, but there is precedence to banning a component of a deck once it in its various forms reaches this metashare.