MTG Salvation

Quote from gkourou »

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?

As the card pool grows bigger and bigger, there is one way blue based Control decks will become Tier 1 again.

- Have a good win con. Nahiri, The Harbinger was kind of there, but not exactly what was needed. I don't know if Splinter Twin is on WOTC's books, but those decks need something like that. So, we either hope a new print help those decks by accident(a better Nahiri), or they design a good control finisher(something good with flash I suppose), or they unban Twin. That's the way I see it. I prefer the second way, but not gonna happen.

We certainly need some generous unbans, but Preordain is not coming IMO(decks like Cheerios and other will get what they want), and Jace, The Mind Sculptor won't help. It's easy to just ignore it and win if you are either a big mana deck or an aggro deck. Stoneforge Mystic is off the books as well, because it straight up helps a deck that's a true Tier 1 deck the most(Junk).

Atm, all cards in the banlist except Splinter Twin (maybe GSZ as well but thats a different beast) are a no go for Wizards the way I see it.

I really am not concerned about Preordain helping Cheerios or Storm. Both of those decks completely rely on keeping a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format alive for more than a turn while having at most 2 protection spells. There is no way that either of those decks could stay on top for long.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?

I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.

The biggest problem is that it is difficult to find instant-win cards early enough in the game. Those cards definitely do exist. Madcap Experiment, Gifts Ungiven, and even Nahiri, the Harbinger all end the game extremely quickly when played on curve. Most decks other than BGx Midrange and Tron have few answers to a turn 4 Platinum Emperion, a turn 5 Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, or Iona, Shield of Emeria, or a turn 6 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and all of them instantly stabilize or win the game. However, with Serum Visions being the only decent cantrip, it is difficult to ensure that a wincon will be found in time to play it on curve, which opens up a window that allows Control players to lose to aggro and combo decks. If Preordain is unbanned, Combo/Control decks should be able to do well in Modern. Traditional pure Control decks likely will never do well in Modern though.

Quote from Jayman21 »

Quote from damagecase »

You saw it win on turn three right? That's pretty fast...

The ability to have free wins is important in general in powerful eternal formats. Jeff Hoogland said it best in his article about esper control. Something along the lines that in a game that has some variance you need to have the ability to get free wins or just roll over your opponent to balance out the games where you lose to variance such as drawing do nothing hands or many screw. In his article he says esper has really strong cards but the fact that it has to grind out all its wins plus the games everyone loses to variance will keep it from ever being tier 1.

Like Jeff I doubt better answers and contrips will do much to help the situation unless they are along the lines of mental misstep, force of will plus brainstorm. That would be unhealthy and like Jeff I rather have control decks to be of the combo nature and not have insanely oppressive answers. The answers in blue are almost fine we just need a wincon that suites blue well which has traditionally been compact combos such as twin, mindslaver lock, and vaultkey. Discard is a good source of disruption because the best way to take advantage of it is through efficient beats which modern has a critical mass of.

Personally, I'd argue that those wincons already exist. A turn 4 Gifts Ungiven into a turn 5 Unburial Rites instantly beats Death's Shadow, Burn, Merfolk, Dredge and Affinity (Burn has no answers to Iona, Shield of Emeria maindeck and Merfolk, Death's Shadow, Dredge, and Affinity have no maindeck answers to Blazing Archon) control decks should be able to survive until turn 5. Similarly, a turn 4 Madcap Experiment into Platinum Emperion leaves almost every deck other than Jund, Junk, and Tron deck with only a few answers. The biggest problem is finding these cards and consistently casting them by turn 5, which is why Preordain would be such an important addition to Control decks.

Quote from izzetmage »

Hypothetical conversation.

"Wow, that Death's Shadow deck looks really good. How do I beat it? Bolt can't kill their guys."
"Well, you could play Fatal Push."
"I see. What's the best Fatal Push deck in the format?"

JOSH UTTER-LEYTON'S DEATH'S SHADOW
...
Instant (7)
3 Fatal Push

The format doesn't just magically fix itself when you print better answers. Fair decks can play those answers against not-fair decks, but not-fair decks can also play those answers themselves to plow through opposition.

Death's Shadow isn't exactly an unfair deck. Other than running 12 extremely efficient beaters (counting Traverse), what makes it unfair? It has 11 discard spells, 11 removal spells, and 2 planeswalkers, and none of its creatures do anything broken except for swinging for a lot of damage. All of its creatures die to non-Lighting Bolt removal and none of them have evasion. It is not uninteractive and compared to almost every other interaction that we see in Modern, its remarkably fair.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from idSurge »

Personally, I think they must unban Preordain and/or Jace if we dont have any Blue Reactive in the Top 16.

I dont believe we get Twin back so soon, so they will go another path.

Do you honestly believe either Preordain or Jace would do anything at all to help them in the current field of top decks? If they can bring back Wild Nacatl for being banned for a stupid, unnecessary, and ineffective reason, they can do the exact same thing for Twin.

Honestly, I do. If Preordain was unbanned and control decks had 8 decent cantrips, they could more easily play combos that essentially win the game by turns 4-6 (Gifts Ungiven, Madcap Experiment, Nahiri the Harbinger) while still running a full control suite.

Quote from GustavitoHouses »

Quote from rogue_LOVE »

Quote from GustavitoHouses »

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/patrick-dickmann/a-modern-banlist-history-lesson-discussion

Worth the time.

[On Misstep]: "There's not that many 1 mana spells that are being played though. the cantrips are mediocre and curves are much higher than in legacy!"

There you have it: proof positive that being a pro doesn't mean you can evaluate the format.

Pretty much what we can expect from pro opinions: a few decent insights and just as many misfires. Fun to post when they agree with us, but nothing special.

Yet he never said he would unban it. Also i want to say that i trust more on the opionion of Patrcik Dickmann and Seth Manfield(who advocated for a Misstep unban earlier) than anyone in this thread or any MTGS thread.

That's why they are pros, they understand the game on another level than ours(the non pros).

Dickmann especially, since he is one of the few pros that actually focuses on Modern as his primary format.

Also, how are we gonna be testing this?

Quote from gkourou »

Quote from h0lydiva »

Well from the UR Prowess perspective, Preordain would be a huge upgrade. But it wouldn't make it faster, I mean, there are no possible lines enabled by Preordain that make it faster in any way. Not even Brainstorm would. Well, maybe Brainstorm would because of the potential of turning a crappy hand into a good one, but you get the point.

What it would certainly make it is more consistent and resilient.

Thing is they didn't nerf pump decks because of T4 rule violation, but because they were too strong in their eyes. This is why this debate is strange. I would not mind taking Preordain and slotting it into all of my decks though!

While this is true, unbanning a card that helps the pump decks but helps Control and Tempo decks that are good against those decks even more shouldn't make the pump decks too strong.

When Wizards said that they were going to switch from 4-mana wraths to conditional 3-mana wraths and unconditional 5-mana wraths with upsides, this was the kind of card I expected. It might not be a 4-mana wrath, but it is still a strong card.

Seriously, just throw 4 Madcap Experiments and 2 Platinum Emperions into any red midrange or control deck in Modern. There, you have a 4-mana 8/8 that wins the game against most aggro and combo decks. No additional combo pieces necessary.

Quote from mpraka »

Quote from Valanarch »

Quote from jwf239 »

Quote from Valanarch »

Well this will be replacing Disenchant in a lot of Modern decks.

Probably, but I wouldn't be so sure. The instant speed of disenchant is huge. The fact that there is not much worth destroying that is greater than 4 cmc makes it definitely look appealing but I don't think it is that cut and dry.

I guess this is true, and if Madcap/Emperion becomes a thing in Modern, being able to destroy artifcats that cost more than 4 will actually matter.

what do you mean???

madcap skills isnt really scary and platinum emperion is good but it cost 8 and dies to any decent removal.....

Have you been paying any attention to these spoilers? Look again.

Well this will be replacing Disenchant in a lot of Modern decks.

Well this is going straight into Brago. And this is gonna be great in Limited.

Ad Nauseam confirmed spoopiest deck in Modern

Quote from LouCypher »

Hey, remember that time when WOTC spoiled this thing and said it was for kitchen table players? That it was there for the Timmies who wanted to resolve big guys without worrying about counterspells?
Yeah. Good times.

Cavern of Souls was designed as a foil to permission-based decks that were dominating Standard (Delver + Snapcaster), this was specifically mentioned in a WotC article back then. I think by Zac Hill.

Edit - found it. It was the preview article for the card. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/gonna-hate-2012-04-20

"Alright. So this card fixes the mana in your creature decks and ensures that basically anything you cast can resolve if you want it to. We expect it to define almost every format in which it can be played. But this card is part of a bigger picture, as I'm sure you can tell. Specifically, there's one big question I'm sure is on your mind: Why does it have that last ability?

Well, I'm glad you asked!

I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage."

A couple things I've been thinking about lately:

1. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe that Dig Through Time is the card that blue reactive decks actually need to be competitive. The problem with them in Modern is that so many decks attack from so many different angles, and we don't have good enough general answers. We do have pretty good specific answers, however, so what these decks need is a better way to find their specific answers in time. This lets blue decks run more 1-ofs to cover themselves from corner cases.

An aspect of the argument for/against this card that I realized the other day, which I don't think I've seen mentioned here before, is that most of the decks we fear becoming too broken by receiving DTT just got a huge nerf by the Probe ban. Cheeri0s can't really fill their graveyard fast enough to use the card. Scapeshift can, but I'm not sure DTT is better than BTL in that deck. Delver decks don't have Probe anymore to rapidly stock their graveyard, and DTT would fight with Tasigur and Angler over the graveyard, so it's not a free roll like the TC Delver decks. Storm probably doesn't want the card, their graveyard is too valuable and Gifts is probably better. I don't think Ad Nauseum fills their graveyard fast enough to make it too busted in that deck, but someone who plays the deck might know better. Twin is gone, so don't have to worry about that one anymore. Maybe a Grixis Goryo's deck abuses it, but that deck is barely seeing any play, and I'd rather just have Goryo's Vengeance banned than DTT if that's the only deck we have to fear abusing the card.

The only decks that can really get the most out of DTT in a Probeless meta is the slower blue decks. I wonder if the changes to Modern since it was banned are enough to make it a perfectly safe card now.

2. One of the inherent flaws with Modern, in the minds of a lot of people, is the pretty much arbitrary starting point. Where Modern begins was past the point where WotC realized that blue was too powerful and began really scaling back the power of control magic, but it was before they stopped printing powerful hosers and hate cards. So we have this format where control sucks, but there are still plenty of mistakes in power level because they didn't figure out about other parts of the game being too broken until after the Modern cutoff. One suggestion I see pros make a lot is to ban 8th and 9th edition. This gets rid of powerful hate cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon, Choke, Boil, etc.

Here's a different idea, what if we legalized 7th edition? I was looking through 7th edition the other day, and the majority of cards in the set would be completely unplayable in Modern today, but a couple would be. We would get Counterspell, Memory Lapse and Force Spike for the blue decks, which would be pretty huge for them. We also get Goblin Matron, which is one of the missing pieces to a competitive Goblin Tribal deck in Modern. I could see Final Fortune being a fun brew-around. Pretty much everything else in the set would be unplayable because it's either too expensive or there's something already legal that's better. Thoughts on this?

Quote from GustavitoHouses »

I'm still on the no unban for Stoneforge Mystic. It fits directly into a Tier 1 strategy and IMHO it speeds up the format, something opposite to the Probe ban criteria.

In a Modern with turn-3 Karn Liberated into turn-4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, endless Fish lords cheated in with Vials, ultra-redundant Burn decks, Sol lands powering out 4/4 Thoughtseizes, Elfballs, Tarmogoyfs, and now Death's Shadow Jund, how on earth does spending 80% of your resources between turns 2 and 3 to produce a 4/4 lifelinker that dies to the format's premier answers speed up the format?

Tweets doing work! You all can thank me later

Quote from Valanarch »

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Reactive blue players: in your opinion, what is the problem with your decks? And don't just say "we don't have Twin." Let's see if we can dig a little deeper. Is it an inability to close out games quickly? An inability to find answers? Weak answers? All of the above and, if so, what extent for each explanation?

I personally love a Preordain unban, but it means Twin is even less likely to come off the list and Preordain will definitely help Cheeri0s and Storm (less worryingly, Ad Nauseam too). I also like a JTMS unban, but if the problem is a lack of answers or a lack of early game consistency, JTMS doesn't solve that. I see arguments for and against both of these unbans, as well as SFM and Twin, but am not sure what the best option is.

The biggest problem is that it is difficult to find instant-win cards early enough in the game. Those cards definitely do exist. Madcap Experiment, Gifts Ungiven, and even Nahiri, the Harbinger all end the game extremely quickly when played on curve. Most decks other than BGx Midrange and Tron have few answers to a turn 4 Platinum Emperion, a turn 5 Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, or Iona, Shield of Emeria, or a turn 6 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and all of them instantly stabilize or win the game. However, with Serum Visions being the only decent cantrip, it is difficult to ensure that a wincon will be found in time to play it on curve, which opens up a window that allows Control players to lose to aggro and combo decks. If Preordain is unbanned, Combo/Control decks should be able to do well in Modern. Traditional pure Control decks likely will never do well in Modern though.

100 percent agree

Quote from Colt47 »

So how much longer are people going to debate twin?

How much longer until we get the Tier 1 reactive blue deck that banning Twin was supposed to help produce?

I'm really getting tired of this whole Twin echo chamber. Everytime something goes wrong in Modern disenfranchised Twin players come out of the wood works, either here, or on Reddit and mention how their deck could have prevented it.

If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it you bet a Twin player will tell you that their deck could have stop it.

Quote from bizzycola »

It makes no sense to unban a far superior combo enabler than the one that you just banned given that it speeds up the format more than probe and gives greater consistency to the decks WotC wanted to diminish. It took nearly no time for Preordain the speed up the format and enable to many powerful combo decks and it took probe years to do the same.

There are a few things wrong with this statement. First, WOTC didn't ban Probe because of combo decks. They banned it because of aggro decks in Infect, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Thing Blue/Prowess. Second, Preordain isn't just a "combo" enabler. It's a combo and tempo and control enabler. All 3 of those archetypes need help in Modern right now. Third, what combo? The archetype is practically non-existent, hence the previous point - combo decks are gone and if they should be part of Modern (I believe they should be) they need help. Fourth, Preordain by itself didn't speed up the format. Preordain plus Ponder plus Blazing Shoal plus Seething Song plus Rite of Flame sped up the format. Every one of those cards is banned and we're only talking about one of them - and the least splashy/powerful one at that. Fifth, it took Probe years to power up decks because of the huge damage (edit: damage to those types of decks, not the format) those previously mentioned bans did.

And lastly, it makes perfect sense for them to ban Probe, wait an announcement cycle or two, see how the meta adjusted (if at all), and unban Preordain. This is what they did when they banned Twin in the Winter and unbanned AV and SOTM in the spring.

And eldrazis get a chance to fight the Egyptian gods in standard.