Yes, i read about how they wasted time and money doing things no one wanted, then got butthurt when everyone told them they sucked. They are real good at that and personally i would not hire any of them for anything
You say that as if they're the only engineers who have ever done something like this. Companies have made this error before: delivering something the users don't want that ultimately doesn't work.
Also, for better or worse, engineers have egos. Sometimes those egos get in the way of common sense, but if you were to never hire an engineer who made mistakes like this, you'd cull a hell of a lot of people. I know I've made mistakes like this early on in my career and I know plenty of other engineers who are fantastic at this stage in their career but made similar mistakes early on.
This is why I was advocating that the act of taking this on as a business would involve a product manager who gave clearer direction to the engineering team with regard to what the users want rather than the engineers going off on their own.
Totally agree - I work a billion-dollar company with thousands of employees across the globe, and they seem to deliver software at this standard for sport. And that's with thousands of employees. Expecting ten guys in a garage to hit it straight off the bat is displaying a fair lack of knowledge on how software engineering behaves in the real world. That's precisely why there are people in this world making their coin as auditors, testers, verifiers etc. etc.
How some people seem to have a level of entitlement that those same ten guys in a garage need to keep a site up for them 24/7 so that they can continue their God-given right to be gifted Modern staples is something that just gets further beyond me day after day.
I didnt say people never make mistakes i said in a properly run company that gets them fired, especially when the mistake is anywhere near this big. Yes my system culls a lot of people as you say, guess what that works in business, whereas what you describe does not.
As to my knowledge of how software engineering works in the real world, trust me i have alot more experience then either of you...
Yes, i read about how they wasted time and money doing things no one wanted, then got butthurt when everyone told them they sucked. They are real good at that and personally i would not hire any of them for anything
You are forgetting something, they were not always this big and a competitor would not instantly be that big, everything starts somewhere, most websites start real small, pucatrade included.
Why did anyone ever trust them (i never did by the way, but still have used the site) and send out cards, there are ways to build trust, especially when you havent just smashed that trust to bits with one failure after another. Also why does it have to be funny money?
Ok, technically you got me there, when including the value of my own time it goes well beyond $100. I was thinking more from an out of pocket cost, to which yes i believe $100 to get it online signing people up as members with the ability to trade at least standard cards is a serious number. From there things can be added...
Less undermining, more being ignorant of. Hence why I asked for the opinions of knowledgeable folks like yourself. If it's a cost issue, couldn't another group crowd-fund the capital based on promises of a better infrastructure? Again, that probably sounds like a simplification, but I'm just curious if it's possible. Assuming the money is there, roughly how long would the process be to build it from the ground up?
Fair, sorry for the tone of my reply (this is why I start so many replies with "not to be an ass").
It's tough to say, largely because it's a very resource constricted problem. That said, I'll break it down as best as I can from a very coarse grained standpoint as a thought experiment.
First, let's assume cloud based hosting (AWS, Google, whatever) because that knocks out the infrastructure problems right out of the gate.
Second, let's assume you'll need a team of at least 4 engineers: probably 2 with back end experience, 1 with front end, and at least one full stack person. You'll also want someone reasonably competent in the product management and user experience space calling the shots in terms of features and usability (lest you get what we have now). It's a gamble to walk away from a $100k+ salary to work on something like this, so if you were to take the low end and call it $100k, that's $500k to have that team for a year as full time resources.
Third, you're going to have to break things down into milestones: if you try to deliver the entire thing up front you're almost guaranteed to go bust and/or get it wrong. The first iteration is going to require that you have your infrastructure set up as well (I'm only familiar with CloudFormation and it's not the friendliest technology in the world), so you need to account for some overhead there. You'll also need to have set up other tools like a version control system (Github).
I'd say the first milestone for a system like this is probably a good 4-5 month endeavor, and that's for a baseline product: simple UI, very basic card support, nothing as complex as paid memberships, packages, or trends. This would need to make a reasonable effort to take basic scalability into account (the way in which an increasing amount of load affects the system) since unlike a lot of other sites you have to start off with an enormous product catalog due to the number of cards in existence.
That said, your job is just starting at this point. Getting that first milestone live really means an open beta starts, and you give things time to bake in. At this point you also need to get users to use your site regularly to get any kind of meaningful data.
The second milestone would be a combination of fixing bugs in the beta and getting a membership system in place so you can make money (doesn't mean you need to turn it on yet; people may not be willing to pay for your product yet). This has different constraints in terms of security (you won't be storing credit card numbers, but you will have to integrate with a payment provider). Assume this second milestone is another 3 months, bringing us up to 8.
I'd say the third milestone should be focused on community feedback (assuming you've established a community at this point) to see what your users want most (and what they'd pay for). Assume it's probably going to take you another 4 months to deliver a feature set worthy of a monthly subscription fee. It's unlikely you could make an ecosystem like this 100% a subscription model because the interests of people vary so much, and inventory is a more important component of the system than anything else, which you won't get if the barrier to entry is too high.
Keep in mind that as you move through all of these milestones, usability testing should be a central player in the evolution of the product. Get early backers, community members, and even people who know nothing about the game using the site to see what's easy, what's unintuitive, and what's outright broken. You'll be surprised what people do in your site, it's often not how you were intending people to use it!
So, after that overly verbose summary, I'd say it's a year before you can make something people would pay for, it would require half a million dollars to get a full time team to work on it, and it would require enough popularity that you'd build a community to use it.
I'm sure people would make an argument that nothing that formal needs to be in place, but since you're creating an economy with its own currency and asking people to commit resources to that currency, I'd argue that you'll never gain the trust of people to do so unless your system is an actual business where professionals work full time to maintain it.
Im sorry but as a coder this is complete nonsense. It would cost about $100 to get a functional site up and running not half a million. This though process is the one that brought pucatrade to where it is now, there is no reason for all these expenses except to make the person in charge feel important.
It has nothing to do with the generosity of the magic community, actually thats whats going to make the whole thing even sadder in the end. Yes there will always be people trading on the legit sites like MOTL & here on the market street, these are both examples of legitimate trading sites that have not sold out their users for their own short term financial gain, pucatrade on the other hand thinks they can print infinite amounts of points devaluing what you already have without it crashing the site, they are simply wrong as has been proven by the exact same idea in other niches in the past (not to mention world history in general). By creating points as it suits them the points will trend toward there true value of nothing and will eventually kill the site.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...
You may think that's what's happening.
I don't.
Let's end this argument before it gets any more circular, shall we? I think it's fair to say that most people on this thread are interested in talking about how to use Puca efficiently, not what non-users think of the economic model behind it.
So you have no argument and just want to put your fingers in your ears and yell lalalala, got it... Have fun loosing your stuff. Ill be sure and stop by to tell you i told you so in a few months. On the upside its nice to know that you have nothing of value to say and i no longer need to waste time reading your posts in any threads...
Edited for spelling and to add the following
One more thing i dont care if you want to end the argument, obviously that would be to your benifit as you are wrong and have no real argument. Puca is obviously a scam and i intend to tell people this if you dont like it that is tough
It has nothing to do with the generosity of the magic community, actually thats whats going to make the whole thing even sadder in the end. Yes there will always be people trading on the legit sites like MOTL & here on the market street, these are both examples of legitimate trading sites that have not sold out their users for their own short term financial gain, pucatrade on the other hand thinks they can print infinite amounts of points devaluing what you already have without it crashing the site, they are simply wrong as has been proven by the exact same idea in other niches in the past (not to mention world history in general). By creating points as it suits them the points will trend toward there true value of nothing and will eventually kill the site.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...
... I'd still consider it very incomplete... No, I'm not 100% sure on these figures...
Again, where are the cold, hard stats? If you're going to ride someone else's opinion (even if it is one backed up with a level of research), why bother to come in here with it? If you don't believe in Puca's usefulness, don't use the site. As far as I'm concerned, so long as Puca continues to allow me to be generous with the cards I'm not using and get something of a level of value back in response, it's working just fine.
Honestly, I think half the problem is that some of the more Spike-y people come onto Puca expecting it to be the Holy Grail of MtG finance. It's not. But if you come onto Puca expecting it to be the world's biggest traders' hall full of awesome people, and you come on with an expectation of being generous without expecting too much in response, Puca will always deliver for you. As soon as you get some sense of entitlement on there (e.g. "why is no-one sending me any fetches? This site sucks"), you're down the slippery slope.
There are plenty of stats in those links, while i dont fully agree with his conclusion i do agree with the stats he is posting, much easier to post a link then rewritting it all. This isnt about not getting a specific card it is about the premise of the site, its complete nonsense. The bottom line is that the site was built on extremely unsustainable economic ideas that are pretty much guaranteed to collapse it in the long run leaving everyone with pucapoints holding the bag while the site owners get their money.
Just out of curiosity when it does fold and all the people you convinced it wasnt a scam are pissed off at you, then what? Did you google 99gamers, how about goosex, this isnt a new idea its just new to magic the gathering, thousands if not millions of people have already been taken by pretty much the exact same idea with a different skin on the site. If money doublers came back around would you encourage people to do that too?
If puca can figure out a way to effectively deal with the inflation concerns, and vintage/legacy/modern stuff starts moving again, I'd definitely re-participate in force.
Well, I'd suspect that's what's happening now. They introduced PucaShield as a way of dealing with points inflation, and they've got evidence that it's already deflating the points market.
At some point, that's (hopefully!) going to leave us with less people on a stack of points, and force people to grind more to get their points totals up (which means less people with the points to receive expensive staples, and more people willing to throw them around).
Of course, that's the theory (and theory is a wonderful thing)!
Are you serious? You know it isnt removing as many points as are still being generated by new member signups and referral bonuses, plus the fact that it is paying out on claims meaning it isnt really sucking those points out of the system at all, merely rearranging most of them. Pucasheild isnt fixing this...
You have zero proof or evidence to back up any of these claims. All your assertions are baseless. You have no:
-- verifiable numbers as to the amount of new accounts opened;
-- knowledge of what level of account was opened (which determines the amount of bonus sign-up points distributed);
-- what percentage of new accounts are a result of referrals vs non-referrals, (which also determines the number of points added to the system);
-- the number of claims that were paid out;
-- the number of lost cards points DIDN'T need to be paid out because the sender opted not to utilize Puca Shield.
What is known is that Puca Shield was on target to remove over 910,000 points in its first month, and that even if they are paying claims to some degree, Puca were doing that BEFORE Puca Shield was implemented in most instances anyway. In other words, you're talking out of your you know where, about things you have no idea about. Puca has a problem on their hands, but are taking steps to correct it, but the holes in your claims are big enough for a Leviathan to stroll through.
On reddit someone has put together evidence that seems much more believable than what the puca admins are claiming
As far as signup bonuses outstripping what pucasheild is taking out thats obvious based on user id numbers (also discussed in the above). Im clearly not the one talking out my ass here, they put a bandaid on a gushing wound to give the impression they are doing something to try and change perception, this will not fix the underlying problem which will continue to get worse until the site folds. The reality is the site was doomed to fail from the get go based on the fact it is set up to function more or less like a ponzi scheme, defend it all you want but thats what it is, go look up 99gamers for a good example of how this really ends.
If puca can figure out a way to effectively deal with the inflation concerns, and vintage/legacy/modern stuff starts moving again, I'd definitely re-participate in force.
Well, I'd suspect that's what's happening now. They introduced PucaShield as a way of dealing with points inflation, and they've got evidence that it's already deflating the points market.
At some point, that's (hopefully!) going to leave us with less people on a stack of points, and force people to grind more to get their points totals up (which means less people with the points to receive expensive staples, and more people willing to throw them around).
Of course, that's the theory (and theory is a wonderful thing)!
Are you serious? You know it isnt removing as many points as are still being generated by new member signups and referral bonuses, plus the fact that it is paying out on claims meaning it isnt really sucking those points out of the system at all, merely rearranging most of them. Pucasheild isnt fixing this...
Do you have numbers backing that up? Because that's pretty much the opposite of what they've been saying on Puca...
PucaShield is in Effect
As of Monday morning, approximately a week after PucaShield was put into effect, 199,203 PucaPoints had been paid into PucaShield. This means that points are leaving the system and should lead to a decrease in the waiting time between placing a card on your wants list and receiving it.
Which is both less than they expected and doesnt take into account what they have to pay out, those points were taken to insure something they now have to pay on that insurance...
If puca can figure out a way to effectively deal with the inflation concerns, and vintage/legacy/modern stuff starts moving again, I'd definitely re-participate in force.
Well, I'd suspect that's what's happening now. They introduced PucaShield as a way of dealing with points inflation, and they've got evidence that it's already deflating the points market.
At some point, that's (hopefully!) going to leave us with less people on a stack of points, and force people to grind more to get their points totals up (which means less people with the points to receive expensive staples, and more people willing to throw them around).
Of course, that's the theory (and theory is a wonderful thing)!
Are you serious? You know it isnt removing as many points as are still being generated by new member signups and referral bonuses, plus the fact that it is paying out on claims meaning it isnt really sucking those points out of the system at all, merely rearranging most of them. Pucasheild isnt fixing this...
I cant stand they way they give spoilers to third party sites and would prefer everything be in one location on their website if they are going to insist on putting them out themselves in a way they set forth. The reality of what they are doing is picking favorites and giving them an extreme financial upside over those that they do not choose. I also think they are making fools of themselves by insisting that people spoiling cards ahead of time is hurting their story telling when the terribly bad unreadable stories are clearly what is hurting them.
Bottom line, i think they own the rights to a great game, i think they do a terrible job at promoting it, running it, expanding it, telling a story through it etc. I also feel that the fail is starting to creep into the game from these other areas as a result of them being unable to cut the "Worth"lessness (pun intended, although the problem is much bigger than just worth) out of their organization.
That would be an horrendous disaster. On ebay you do not get a negative feedback just because you sell spark-plugs or kitsch gadgets. Try playing burn or even bogles on MTGO and you will see what people tell you, based on the rather extensive preconceptions people have on what should (or not) be played.
I was thinking more about rating players for limited. How well ratings would work for constructed, I have no idea.
Also, if people really hate playing against burn or even bogles (whatever that is), wouldn't a lower constructed rating be warranted?
Based on what? You have absolutly no right to try and tell your opponent what to play
Also how is being charged a 12.5% rake good for the average player?
If you wish to lay out precisely how you came to that figure I can comment on it. In lieu of that, I direct you to my other posts in this thread where I have laid out how I believe this change will benefit me and why I believe there are more players in my position than not. The long and the short of it is that this change rearranges the profitability of various events so if (as I suspect) your "12.5% rake" is based on comparing like to like on the assumption that nobody will dream of changing which events they play in, then you have misunderstood what I am proposing (or haven't bothered to read it). Players who are actually unable to alter their playing habits, as well as the few who successfully go infinite and turn a profit from constructed dailies, will indeed be worse off. For everyone else, play points will become the primary means of entering constructed tournaments and any excess points won can be spent on limited events if desired.
Are you kidding, you cant figure out how I came to 12.5%? And saying play another que doesn't change the fact that attempting to charge a 12.5% rake for a single match is extremely insulting to the intelligence of their player base. There is no reason to play for a chance to play again when in the end it gets you nothing.
I didnt say people never make mistakes i said in a properly run company that gets them fired, especially when the mistake is anywhere near this big. Yes my system culls a lot of people as you say, guess what that works in business, whereas what you describe does not.
As to my knowledge of how software engineering works in the real world, trust me i have alot more experience then either of you...
You are forgetting something, they were not always this big and a competitor would not instantly be that big, everything starts somewhere, most websites start real small, pucatrade included.
Why did anyone ever trust them (i never did by the way, but still have used the site) and send out cards, there are ways to build trust, especially when you havent just smashed that trust to bits with one failure after another. Also why does it have to be funny money?
Im sorry but as a coder this is complete nonsense. It would cost about $100 to get a functional site up and running not half a million. This though process is the one that brought pucatrade to where it is now, there is no reason for all these expenses except to make the person in charge feel important.
So you have no argument and just want to put your fingers in your ears and yell lalalala, got it... Have fun loosing your stuff. Ill be sure and stop by to tell you i told you so in a few months. On the upside its nice to know that you have nothing of value to say and i no longer need to waste time reading your posts in any threads...
Edited for spelling and to add the following
One more thing i dont care if you want to end the argument, obviously that would be to your benifit as you are wrong and have no real argument. Puca is obviously a scam and i intend to tell people this if you dont like it that is tough
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...
There are plenty of stats in those links, while i dont fully agree with his conclusion i do agree with the stats he is posting, much easier to post a link then rewritting it all. This isnt about not getting a specific card it is about the premise of the site, its complete nonsense. The bottom line is that the site was built on extremely unsustainable economic ideas that are pretty much guaranteed to collapse it in the long run leaving everyone with pucapoints holding the bag while the site owners get their money.
Just out of curiosity when it does fold and all the people you convinced it wasnt a scam are pissed off at you, then what? Did you google 99gamers, how about goosex, this isnt a new idea its just new to magic the gathering, thousands if not millions of people have already been taken by pretty much the exact same idea with a different skin on the site. If money doublers came back around would you encourage people to do that too?
On reddit someone has put together evidence that seems much more believable than what the puca admins are claiming
see
here https://www.reddit.com/r/PucaTrade/comments/4wl615/pucatrade_economic_commentary_august_2016_edition/
and here https://www.reddit.com/r/PucaTrade/comments/4vtibi/pucatrade_unofficial_economic_indicators_august/
As far as signup bonuses outstripping what pucasheild is taking out thats obvious based on user id numbers (also discussed in the above). Im clearly not the one talking out my ass here, they put a bandaid on a gushing wound to give the impression they are doing something to try and change perception, this will not fix the underlying problem which will continue to get worse until the site folds. The reality is the site was doomed to fail from the get go based on the fact it is set up to function more or less like a ponzi scheme, defend it all you want but thats what it is, go look up 99gamers for a good example of how this really ends.
Which is both less than they expected and doesnt take into account what they have to pay out, those points were taken to insure something they now have to pay on that insurance...
Are you serious? You know it isnt removing as many points as are still being generated by new member signups and referral bonuses, plus the fact that it is paying out on claims meaning it isnt really sucking those points out of the system at all, merely rearranging most of them. Pucasheild isnt fixing this...
Man i wold love to see some sort of a chess clock implemented in paper magic, its one of a few things mtgo actually does better
Bottom line, i think they own the rights to a great game, i think they do a terrible job at promoting it, running it, expanding it, telling a story through it etc. I also feel that the fail is starting to creep into the game from these other areas as a result of them being unable to cut the "Worth"lessness (pun intended, although the problem is much bigger than just worth) out of their organization.
Based on what? You have absolutly no right to try and tell your opponent what to play
Are you kidding, you cant figure out how I came to 12.5%? And saying play another que doesn't change the fact that attempting to charge a 12.5% rake for a single match is extremely insulting to the intelligence of their player base. There is no reason to play for a chance to play again when in the end it gets you nothing.