I'm sorry, but MaRo's "it's only fair we cater to whales too" is total BS. Sure, whales want nice things. But I guarantee you no one gets excited that they're paying 3+x for products that cost a trivial amount extra to make. Expeditions and masterpieces catered to them. $16 15-card booster packs exploit them.
Is this one of the first abilities that lets you exile a creature you don't own (say that you stole with Mass Manipulation) and return it to your control?
I'm really touched you've enjoyed this so much. I'll most likely port this over to the new site whenever that's ready to go. Heck, I'm even looking to make a little more time to start doing some proper testing again.
springleaf drum was VERY underwhelming for me the time I got it.. Could've just been the game but didn't seem to need it.. Or if I could of used it I would of rather used the creature to tap and mill.. But it's such a low casting cost it's hard to remove.. Only card I thought about replacing it with was mind stone any suggestions or insight to this card?
Admittedly, this card can be underwhelming in certain circumstances. But it can be handy early game when you're not milling yet. And then, as Lyonheart has pointed out, it's also an enabler for the "tapping matters" cards, not just those with inspired. One thing to note, in case you didn't realize, is that Springleaf Drum lets you tap down a creature with summoning sickness.
My glaring weakness for this deck is def DRAW and the next weakness is RECURSION.. I def almost ran out of steam after a board wipe with not having any draw in the game.. And honestly if I had played in a 4 person match instead of a 3 person match I prob would of lost.. But luckily I was ahead enough to eeeekkk out the win.
Also when my nighthowler or sewer nemesis got sent to the graveyard it would of been nice to just get it right back. And with having no draw I was sore out of luck with my big guys gone.
So I def need to address those 2 parts of my deck… rhystic study is def on my need to get list.. As this is prob the best card to help me. Next up would be phyrexian arena. My only worry about phyrexian is it isn't a choice.. Has anyone ever died to this.. Or is that highly unlikely.?
Cards I'm considering
So again I'm on a budget so I can't just go grab the best card for the job at the moment.
Draw:
-what would be your go to if you had to have some budget draw bloodgift demon mind stone monastery siege kumena’s awakening loyal drake taigam, sidis's hand(this card really intrigues me.. It's both a scry(which helps with drawing the right stuff) and essentially a killl spell to indestructible or other pesky creatures. I feel like this is a really nice card.. Am I missing anything here?
I'll keep this to things I'm adding to what Lyonheart has said, rather than potentially repeating.
Cards like Mind Stone aren't inherently bad even without being able to recur them. But the one-time draw should just be viewed as a small add-on. For a rock like this they need to be worth running on their own.
I'm not worried so much about having Phenax out for Loyal Drake in general, being indestructible and often not a creature. The only issue I'm seeing is that early game, it's a 3-drop that's basically useless until around turn 5.
I actually don't hate Taigam, Sidisi's Hand. You're still effectively getting a draw. It's not quite scry, but it is nice being able to filter. And you're not losing anything you already had. So you don't really need extra recursion to get things back. But it does give you more options for what recursion you do have. All in all, I'm not totally sure it outperforms actual draw engines in the deck, but it could work as a budget option.
As a whole, you seem to be focusing a lot of recursion for yourself. This deck has enough wincons I wouldn't spend too much stuff on that. If you really feel you need more, I'd go for something that let's you pull from any graveyard.
As for Cemetary Puca, it's cheaper than Lazav, and can target any graveyard. I'm not sure if I'd want to run it, but it could certainly do work in the deck.
My biggest issue with Lazav is that he relies way too much on your opponents having something useful. I've tried to limit cards like that in this deck.
I do keep forgetting about Underworld Connections. I originally omitted Erebos based on price, thinking that since Arena is similar in price it would be the priority. But Erebos gets a nice big size 7 butt if he gets BBB more devotion aside from himself and Phenax.
For some reason I assumed he would be cheap. Didn't even occur to me to check.
So thanks for the suggestion but our group doesn't allow unhinged cards. So no animate library for me
So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.
Sheoldred, Whispering One doesn't have a strong alternative, though you could maybe run Sepulchural Primordial in its place. That being said, it's not super on-flavor. It's more of a goodstuffs card. I'm actually going to be testing The Scarab God in its place.
For Toxic Deluge I would be inclined to run Black Sun's Zenith. Sure, it can cost a lot of mana. But it's re-useable and let's you be selective. Like Deluge, this can let you save you high-toughness creatures.
Bribery is also one without a good analog. It's powerful for sure, and I'd definitely try running it if you have one. But it's not super on-flavor. It's partly a remnant of when this was a Lazav deck.
These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?
I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
silent arbiter Can certainly get the job done. As you note, part of the reason I skipped it is devotion. It's nice not only have an indestructible blocker in Phenax, but also the extra little bit of mill is nice. The other reason though is I want to avoid drawing any hate. That's why I personally have stayed away from cards that affect everyone, rather than just putting up a pillow in front of me.
No Mercy is tough to replace, as there's not much like it out there. Ideally, I would go for another pillowfort enchantment, so it's just as hard to remove. Collective Restraint is an option. In this deck, it's a strictly worse Propaganda, but it'd do the trick. Or if it's working for you, you can stick with the Arbiter.
Rhystic Study and other draw cards have been talked about plenty in the responses already, so not much to add here.
I like dimir doppelganger a lot, and I like it as a budget option in this deck, too. If you're looking to use it specifically to steal an opponent's creature, that's great. If you want to recur your own, I'd probably just go for a cheap spell that doesn't exile
I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
This combo has been done in popular EDH decks, like the now retired Wrexial primer. I'm just not a huge fan of it. It's a little too setup dependency in my opinion. But if it's worked for you, I wont' knock it.
guiltfeeder also prob doesn't last till next turn but it makes them use removal on him instead of something else and if not its instant kill with him most of the time. So he seems like a nice wincon to include
slagwurm armor seems like a nice pump to help some creature mill for more
fleet swallower prob is another creature who doesn't see a next turn.. But would be game changing if he does.. But prob only good for one time as someone prob blocks and kills him.. So prob less effective then guiltfeeder
fraying sanity is awesome.. But only targeting one person stinks.. But might not be awful to hold on hand till only 1 opponent is left and then play it?
mind grind not worth it in most your testing? I liked that it targets everyone at the table and usually mills a decent amount even just paying 6 mana(4 colorless) for it. But maybe it's just not strong enough
mnemonic betrayal any good in this deck you think? Or prob not enough value for us?
bonehoard I thought was a decent card as it makes a 0/0 creature if we don't have any on the battlefield and gives a nice fat butt for us to mill with its +x/+x
infinite reflections could be a fun card if you could copy sewer nemesis or something fatty.. But might be too situational for this deck.
Forced Fruition is this a card you have ever considered.. It's expensive alittle bit but man it could really get some players to draw a ton
Mortivore, Wight of Precinct Six, and Bonehoard are all great in the deck. But for only growing off of creatures, there's just too many cards competing for their spot.
Guiltfeeder was in the deck for a long time. Ultimately, I kind of moved away from attack-based cards. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. And if you like them, more power to you. But I felt like there wasn't enough support in this deck for most attackers.
slagwurm armor is just outpaced by too many things. As an equipment, it's a little on the slower side, and doesn't do anything by itself. And while the +0/+6 does buff mill and is super on-theme, it just doesn't do enough I feel.
I would love to run Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real. Honestly, I just have no idea where to put them. They're strong with this deck and super on flavor. But they need to outperform another card in the deck to get a slot. You could maybe go with a control slot if you're less worried about that.
This deck used to run Hover Barrier before I discovered Drift of Phantasms. With all the strong cards available to us, there's only so much room for walls in here. And I like the utility (and gimmick) of Transmute more than I dislike the one lost toughness. And then Wall of Frost feels like a better deterrent. Sure, it lacks flying. But it can survive slightly bigger hits, and enemies want to run into it a hell of a lot less.
I do think Fleet Swallower is worth testing for sure. I'm just worried about it being combat-oriented. The deck doesn't really have any way to give it evasion or support it. I'd love to hear about it if you try it. Otherwise, I'd have to figure out what slot it could even work in.
Fraying Sanity is another one that's interesting, but needs to be tested. I'm torn on it just looking at it. It can only hit one player, and doesn't do anything by itself. But a mill double is nothing to laugh at.
The issue with Mind Grind is that it doesn't hit any single player hard enough. You're milling roughly 2.5 cards per X per player on average. At a big table, spending like 6 mana for x=4 will mill you for 10 cards a player on average, which could be a ton in total. But the way it's spread out means there's no real amount of mana to spend on it that feels satisfying.
Mnemonic Betrayal is honestly just too new for me to have tested yet. I want to love it so bad. It's not an auto-include though, as I'm just not sure if we'll be able to get enough value out of it if we've already spent three mana this turn just to cast it. With more mana generation, it would definitely be a blowout. As it is, we'll see.
With the number of artifacts in this deck, I feel like the scope of Fabricate is just too limited. If you're on a budget, it has a few worthwhile targets for sure. But there are much more powerful and/or more fun and gimmicky (looking at you transmute) out there. If you're looking for another niche tutor, I'd be more tempted by Shred Memory for this deck.
Infinite Reflections is probably more win-more than anything in this deck. I wouldn't want to use it on a utility card like King Macar, the Gold-Cursed so it would go on a win-con. So that already makes it pretty conditional. And then it's only providing value on a win-con that can't get me home by itself.
I largely agree with Lyonheart on Forced Fruition. It may not draw you crazy amounts of hate, because everyone loves draw. But I'd be more inclined to run something like Jace's Archivist instead.
So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage. So A few cards are out of budget for me at the moment.. But I'm trying to make do with what I have. So any advice on the above cards would be great.. Or if you have other cards I could fit into the spots I'm missing let me know.. But for now I will try and run about 95% your build and see how a game or two goes…
Thanks for any reply you can give.. Don't feel you need to take the time and address every card or anything but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks man! It definitely does sacrifice some potential mill in areas like control. But I'm pretty happy with the balance. Where you play it might be different though, so I can't say running more mill is necessarily a bad thing.
I honestly wasn't expecting such an in-depth post. I'll gladly tackle all of it, of course. I'm going to aim for tomorrow; I'm just way too exhausted right now to give your posts the proper reply they deserve
I appreciate the interest. It's probably time to blow the dust off this deck.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
Yeah, Animate Library is just crazy in EDH. That card would be crazy as a creature regardless since it's basically a */* creature for 4UU that has: "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your library." which is just insanity regardless the format.
The best part is the the library has already been “under your control” when it hits the field, so you can mill someone out immediately
I appreciate the interest. It's probably time to blow the dust off this deck.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
Seems kind of hilarious with Iroas, God of Victory. Just fight your guys after you've declared attackers and the Golem is the only thing that goes down.
I might work contraptions into my Depala, Pilot Exemplar deck. The colors give access to solid riggers. The artifact theme works great with her. She also pairs well with bounce, which further pairs well with riggers. And it's an excuse to really make the deck gimmick themed while still being fun.
My favorite is the interaction with the new Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded
I’m just still mad that they changed Lava Axe’s flavor text to a worse joke
Edit: Apparently they changed it back for M19.
Admittedly, this card can be underwhelming in certain circumstances. But it can be handy early game when you're not milling yet. And then, as Lyonheart has pointed out, it's also an enabler for the "tapping matters" cards, not just those with inspired. One thing to note, in case you didn't realize, is that Springleaf Drum lets you tap down a creature with summoning sickness.
I'll keep this to things I'm adding to what Lyonheart has said, rather than potentially repeating.
Cards like Mind Stone aren't inherently bad even without being able to recur them. But the one-time draw should just be viewed as a small add-on. For a rock like this they need to be worth running on their own.
I'm not worried so much about having Phenax out for Loyal Drake in general, being indestructible and often not a creature. The only issue I'm seeing is that early game, it's a 3-drop that's basically useless until around turn 5.
I actually don't hate Taigam, Sidisi's Hand. You're still effectively getting a draw. It's not quite scry, but it is nice being able to filter. And you're not losing anything you already had. So you don't really need extra recursion to get things back. But it does give you more options for what recursion you do have. All in all, I'm not totally sure it outperforms actual draw engines in the deck, but it could work as a budget option.
As a whole, you seem to be focusing a lot of recursion for yourself. This deck has enough wincons I wouldn't spend too much stuff on that. If you really feel you need more, I'd go for something that let's you pull from any graveyard.
As for Cemetary Puca, it's cheaper than Lazav, and can target any graveyard. I'm not sure if I'd want to run it, but it could certainly do work in the deck.
If I had to pick one of the two, I would be far more inclined to keep Dramatic Reversal here personally.
I'll tackle the rest of what you posted as soon as I can.
Phyrexian Metamorph can be replaced by any decent clone. Clever Impersonator and Dimir Doppelganger, for example, would both do well in this deck.
Sheoldred, Whispering One doesn't have a strong alternative, though you could maybe run Sepulchural Primordial in its place. That being said, it's not super on-flavor. It's more of a goodstuffs card. I'm actually going to be testing The Scarab God in its place.
Lyonheart did a good job of covering cheaper more casual draw engines in place of Phyrexian Arena so I won't bore you with a repeat. But a couple other options are Erebos, God of the Dead and Underworld Connections.
For Toxic Deluge I would be inclined to run Black Sun's Zenith. Sure, it can cost a lot of mana. But it's re-useable and let's you be selective. Like Deluge, this can let you save you high-toughness creatures.
Bribery is also one without a good analog. It's powerful for sure, and I'd definitely try running it if you have one. But it's not super on-flavor. It's partly a remnant of when this was a Lazav deck.
Pemmin's Aura, Sepulchral Primordial, and Animate Dead are all perfectly fine budget options.
silent arbiter Can certainly get the job done. As you note, part of the reason I skipped it is devotion. It's nice not only have an indestructible blocker in Phenax, but also the extra little bit of mill is nice. The other reason though is I want to avoid drawing any hate. That's why I personally have stayed away from cards that affect everyone, rather than just putting up a pillow in front of me.
No Mercy is tough to replace, as there's not much like it out there. Ideally, I would go for another pillowfort enchantment, so it's just as hard to remove. Collective Restraint is an option. In this deck, it's a strictly worse Propaganda, but it'd do the trick. Or if it's working for you, you can stick with the Arbiter.
Rhystic Study and other draw cards have been talked about plenty in the responses already, so not much to add here.
I like dimir doppelganger a lot, and I like it as a budget option in this deck, too. If you're looking to use it specifically to steal an opponent's creature, that's great. If you want to recur your own, I'd probably just go for a cheap spell that doesn't exile
This combo has been done in popular EDH decks, like the now retired Wrexial primer. I'm just not a huge fan of it. It's a little too setup dependency in my opinion. But if it's worked for you, I wont' knock it.
Mortivore, Wight of Precinct Six, and Bonehoard are all great in the deck. But for only growing off of creatures, there's just too many cards competing for their spot.
Guiltfeeder was in the deck for a long time. Ultimately, I kind of moved away from attack-based cards. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. And if you like them, more power to you. But I felt like there wasn't enough support in this deck for most attackers.
slagwurm armor is just outpaced by too many things. As an equipment, it's a little on the slower side, and doesn't do anything by itself. And while the +0/+6 does buff mill and is super on-theme, it just doesn't do enough I feel.
I would love to run Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real. Honestly, I just have no idea where to put them. They're strong with this deck and super on flavor. But they need to outperform another card in the deck to get a slot. You could maybe go with a control slot if you're less worried about that.
This deck used to run Hover Barrier before I discovered Drift of Phantasms. With all the strong cards available to us, there's only so much room for walls in here. And I like the utility (and gimmick) of Transmute more than I dislike the one lost toughness. And then Wall of Frost feels like a better deterrent. Sure, it lacks flying. But it can survive slightly bigger hits, and enemies want to run into it a hell of a lot less.
I do think Fleet Swallower is worth testing for sure. I'm just worried about it being combat-oriented. The deck doesn't really have any way to give it evasion or support it. I'd love to hear about it if you try it. Otherwise, I'd have to figure out what slot it could even work in.
Fraying Sanity is another one that's interesting, but needs to be tested. I'm torn on it just looking at it. It can only hit one player, and doesn't do anything by itself. But a mill double is nothing to laugh at.
The issue with Mind Grind is that it doesn't hit any single player hard enough. You're milling roughly 2.5 cards per X per player on average. At a big table, spending like 6 mana for x=4 will mill you for 10 cards a player on average, which could be a ton in total. But the way it's spread out means there's no real amount of mana to spend on it that feels satisfying.
Mnemonic Betrayal is honestly just too new for me to have tested yet. I want to love it so bad. It's not an auto-include though, as I'm just not sure if we'll be able to get enough value out of it if we've already spent three mana this turn just to cast it. With more mana generation, it would definitely be a blowout. As it is, we'll see.
With the number of artifacts in this deck, I feel like the scope of Fabricate is just too limited. If you're on a budget, it has a few worthwhile targets for sure. But there are much more powerful and/or more fun and gimmicky (looking at you transmute) out there. If you're looking for another niche tutor, I'd be more tempted by Shred Memory for this deck.
Infinite Reflections is probably more win-more than anything in this deck. I wouldn't want to use it on a utility card like King Macar, the Gold-Cursed so it would go on a win-con. So that already makes it pretty conditional. And then it's only providing value on a win-con that can't get me home by itself.
I largely agree with Lyonheart on Forced Fruition. It may not draw you crazy amounts of hate, because everyone loves draw. But I'd be more inclined to run something like Jace's Archivist instead.
Thanks man! It definitely does sacrifice some potential mill in areas like control. But I'm pretty happy with the balance. Where you play it might be different though, so I can't say running more mill is necessarily a bad thing.
I honestly wasn't expecting such an in-depth post. I'll gladly tackle all of it, of course. I'm going to aim for tomorrow; I'm just way too exhausted right now to give your posts the proper reply they deserve
The best part is the the library has already been “under your control” when it hits the field, so you can mill someone out immediately
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."