I'm having extreme trouble against Dredgevine.
Game 1 I get wrecked when he swings at me with around 16 damage turn 3 after he discards all his dredge creatures to Lotleth Troll
Game 2/3 Thoughtseize and Relic of Progenitus comes in, but I get absolutely wrecked by Darkblast.
Any tips? I only have a single Relic of Progenitus as there is only one player playing dredge in my meta, but I can't seem to see myself beating him unless you gets mana screwed or flooded.
Im running all sorts of green and red variants at the moment, I have Burn, RG Scapeshift, Elves but by far my favourite deck is this one. I absolutely love it and I have been reading these pages quite a lot lately and the one thing I don't understand is why add Twin?
The deck lists people are posting are running 8 -10 twin cards which means that your removing either Cyclers or Mages which just seems counter intuitive.
I don't get why its being entertained at all, how does it help the deck run better or win more matches. We have a very efficient combo driven by a pretty much cast iron engine and to shoe horn in a combo that needs so many cards seem bonkers. Its not going to help in our bad match ups, it slows our draw, which should mean we need to load more lands.
I agree with the thoughts behind the previous poster.
P.S.
Living Twin was laughably bad with its appearance (but this isn't anything new because the deck is a sup-par variant of a tier 2 stable archetype) , many of the better mage's shared it's just trying to do to much...and when that happens the deck loses its appeal and of course consistency. Yes the deck can win one dude said...but so can a deck with 24 1cc flying creatures if it's pair against crap (the oops factor is there with Living Twin, but the range of consistency to make it a true treat within the archetype really isn't, and that's basically a "Living" fact he shared when you research the results. The Timmy's love it though he added and wished all he faced had that variant, he expressed the "given"...it's trying to squeeze a combo in a deck that already houses a consistent combo, ironic).
The best way I have found to vary the deck is with additional land hate, Controlling your opponents mana is an incredibly effective way to control games. Using a T2 land hit followed by a T3 land hit is back breaking to most decks, and the fact you can keep this up for multiple turns is great.
I am running Stone rain in my SB along with 4 mages and 2 Avalanche riders MB
The Twin variant sees play because the Slinter Twin combo exists on a different axis than Living End does, and it pressures the opponent more just by running both combos. It isn't any different from other hybrid decks like BreachShift or UWR with Kiki-Jiki. Since the combos are so different, your opponent will have a hard time sideboarding because, a hate card for one combo isn't good against the other. Also, both combos go off as early as turn 3, and you're playing roughly 12 cards that do it. That's an insane amount of pressure your opponent has to deal with. As for cutting land destruction for Twin, ask yourself this, would you rather be in a winning position, or just win?
I'm not saying it is better than traditional Living End, but it certainly does have its merits. Afterall, two Twinning End lists made top8 at SCG States.
sending goblin guide for instance and others into brindle boar is actually a good idea because we will very likely sacrifice it for life gain after we declared it as a blocker. If we do not then they will killed a blocker a source of life gain and we gained no life. also they can simply bolt brindle boar forcing it out of the field and making us gain 4 life, perhaps leaving us without a blocker, which may or may not play into there aggro plan. Baloth takes more of burns resources to force it off the field.
Biggest plus I have for something like baloth is because it is etb we gain the life without having to give up a blocker due to sacrifice activated ability. burn will have to use 2 burn spells or a creature and a burn spell to kill it. neither of which is good for them.
Down side of course is the double green and costing 1 more mana.
games 2 and 3 I almost guarentee you they will be playing Eidolon of the Great Revel if they are not already. looking to hit us in the 3cc.
I'm still more of a kor firewalker guy when going against red decks, but I can't support the double white in Living Twin, leaving me to go into the green options to fight burn.
First of all, no Burn player in his right mind will bolt a Brindle Boar, unless he has Skullcrack mana up. That's just a huge tempo loss and a waste of cards. Also, Burn only cares about the ETB trigger of Baloth, not the 4/4 body. They will just Skullcrack you, and let you keep the creature. Burn has been doing the same thing against Siege Rhino.
A few decks in the format have been running Phyrexian Unlife for Burn. Not only do you 'gain' 10 more life, which gets around Skullcrack and Command, you also have 'shield' for your life total because, you don't take infect damage for the instance your life drops to zero or below.
Any suggestions? I really like the numbers of Thoughtcast and Galvanic Blast that I have, they tend to be really clutch, but I think I could knock off one or two.
I don't see anything that strikes me as odd, except for a couple of speculative cards in the sideboard. What problems are you having?
On Mana Confluence, Tom Ferguson, an expert of the Burn archetype, had this to say:
Quote from Tom Ferguson »
In the mana base, you'll notice a pair of Mana Confluence. Most lists like this will run two Marsh Flats in that spot, but I feel like we are almost always shocking and pinging ourselves to get the land into play. If you are smart, you won't have to Bolt yourself to play everything on time. Also, it makes Helix go further. You can replace it with Marsh Flats, but it means you are playing a turn late or damaging yourself, which is not a race I want to be in versus the mirror.
The quote, and his card choices for 2014 States (where he made 4th place, btw) can be found here. He makes an almost convincing case to run Mogg Fanatic. Almost.
He should write another Burn Primer since so much has changed since KTK.
i wonder if whipflare is still as relevant? the reason for this doubt is the appearance of apostle blessing that had been showing up recently. i am also thinking if dispatch is better than blast and such. what is the placing for rule of law? i am preping for GPT tomorrow. will need input on sideboard.
Whipflare is still very much relevant. I did an aggregate for the 24 Affinity decks in States, and the 1st Whipflare was at the top of the list with 23. The mainboard for states was -1 MoE -1 Welding Jar, and +1 Ensoul Artifact +1 Etched Champion. The sideboard was mostly the same except there was a second Blood Moon in the board.
I also did another aggregate adding the data from states to the ones I did above, and the mainboard and sideboard was still the same. I thought it would change since I used 59 lists for the first aggregate. So, this one included a total of 83 deck lists.
I might put together some more detailed stats on this but I've noticed some Top8 lists in the States Champs. I don't think all the decklists are in yet, but so far:
16x Burn Total
8x RW(g)
5x RWG
2x RW
1x RG(w)
() denotes sideboard cards only.
The RWG and RG(w) lists run 2-4x Atarka's Command. Avg 3.5x per list.
Builds with Command represent about 40% of the Top8 lists.
The RW(g) are pretty much stock lists, maybe with Rending Volley in the SB. I imagine that many who ran this version did so because it was the safer proven list in a meta that has not significantly changed. With Command showing up strongly, I think there will be a gradual shift toward RWG.
If I run the numbers and make an aggregate maindeck (as per Frank Karsten's methodology) for RWG it comes out as below:
As you can see most of the decks opted to cut a number of Skullcrack, Shard Volley, and Lightning Helix. It's worth noting that the 1st Shard Volley tied for the 41st card slot with the 2nd Skullcrack. Furthermore, most of the lists contained 1-2 Skullcrack in the board. I opted for Volley to match the average curve of all 16x Burn lists to not have more than 18x 2-drops (only 1x deck contained 19x).
This is all very interesting. Can you post the aggregate for the sideboard?
The 1st Thoughtseize and the 1st Whipflare were tied for the 4th slot. The 1st Dismember and the 1st Torpor Orb were tied for the 13th slot. The 16th card was the 3rd Thoughtseize. The "3rd" Etched Champion, 1st Illness in the Ranks, 1st Relic of Progenitus, and the 2nd Spell Pierce were all tied for the 17th slot.
Looking at the mainboard again, the 1st MoE and the 1st Thoughtcast were tied for the 47th slot. The 1st Galvanic Blast and the 2nd Steel Overseer were tied for the 50th slot. What I found most interesting here was the 2nd Galvanic Blast, 2nd Thoughtcast, and the 1st Welding Jar were all tied for the 52nd slot.
What is your conclusion on this aggregate? what does it translate to? any sideboard aggregate to work on?
For clarification, I've only used decklists I've found on mtgtop8, and none of the lists from States are in here. If I have to conclude something, it's people favor MoE slightly more than Etched Champion, Welding Jar is worth a slot, and Ensoul Artifact is ok. I'll work on a sideboard with the same data.
I used Frank Karsten's system to create an aggregate mainboard of Affinity using decklists that 4-0'd in Dailes or mad etop8 in major tournaments from the release of Fate Reforged and onward, and this is what I got.
Why would you ever need G on T1 with Burn? Honestly if you want a G/R land that doesnt hurt you just use Rootbound Crag.
Because you still take damage from T1 fetch into Mountain. I honestly don't see why everybody else sees the enters play tapped as a downside. The 4th land drop doesn't matter for Burn, and the deck operates just fine with 3 lands in play. Also, at come the point where you do play a fourth land, you pretty much played most or all the spells in your hand anyway. Rootbound Crag is worse because it makes 1 land hands unkeepable when it's the only land in your hand.
So before starting Kor Firewalker is value for days. I'd rather main deck him than eidolon of the great revel if it was a choice between the two. Two of my match ups he went jammed into the deck.
VS. Mardu somethin er other
Not much to say against this match up.
Game 1. On the draw and was set up to race him. I let him keep his dark confident to draw an extra card. It was Crackling doom so it was a free bolt for me. When he attacked I took care of him with grim lavamancer. I dont remember much about this match up. I won turn 4 no problem.
Game 2. Land flooded to the max. Thankfully I had plenty of creatures on the board. I had Kor Firewalker out. He let my Vexing Devil live on turn 3 and used crackling doom when I attacked making me sacrifice it. It saved my Kor Firewalker though so I cant even say I really complained. I gained life through the plays and finally flashbacked the 2 Bump in the Night cards in late turns for the win.
WON 2-0
VS. Infect
One of the only times I have ever had trouble against infect.
Game 1 on the draw. I kept a good hand to burn the face but my only creature removal was shard volley. I had everything to win turn 3 or turn 4 if I needed to use shard volley on turn 2. My mistake. She went off turn 2 and I had Goblin Guided turn 1.
Game 2 on the draw. He mulligans to 4, probably trying to get one of his sideboard cards. He plays it out. Uses Sakura-Tribe Elder to be a blocker on turns 2 and 3. I end up burning him out turn 4.
WON 2-0
VS. Storm, the match of the evening.
Game 1 on the play. Ive got the race, but does he have the cards? Yup. Vexing Devil knocks him down a peg turn 1. Turn two it's Swiftspear and a lava spike. He goes off turn two.
Game 2 on the play. Dont draw one of my kor firewalkers but go with it anyway. Had a 2 swiftspear, bolt, spike, bump and two lands. I race him and win turn 3. He attempts to go off turn 2 again after he Gitaxian Probed my hand but falls dreafully short.
Game 3. Kor Firewalker is in hand. Turn one Vexing Devil dropping him to 13 from his fetch shock. Turn 2 Kor Firewalker and he is like.....oh. He attempts to go off turn three dropping himself to dangerous life but in the process I have gained 6 life from his storm process putting me back up to 21.
Thoughts: Still don't see the need to run Eidolon of the Great however Kor Firewalker has won my heart. Even against Storm, the best deck to use it against yes it would have murdered him greatly but Kor Firewalker put me out of death range just as effectively as eidolon of the great revel would put them into death range. Hate me if you must, results are results.
I believe your victory against Storm was mostly due to the fact that you put so much pressure on him early so that he is forced to go off on turn 2 or 3, or lose, and it's very unlikely of Storm to successfully go off earlier than turn 4. Also, Kor Firewalker is next to useless against Storm, at least against a competent player, and here's why: Storm copies, and those from Pyromancer Ascension are not cast. Therefore, you don't gain life from the copies. Also, Storm usually runs 2 or more Grapeshots in the mainboard. So, one casting of Grapeshot is enough to negate the lifegain from Firewalker, and the second one is enough to bring you to zero.
Neither are in my deck because they are BOTH inconsistent. I have tried both. I know both of their weaknesses and strengths. I post to help the burn community to help make better decisions not just dismissing a card with little to no reason. Much like my comparison I made above it was to show both sides of the argument not just X card being bad.
What have you done to help the community? All that you've done so far is call people inept, insult their reading comprehension skills, and intelligence. I, for one, am getting sick and tired of your attitude! Everybody in this thread had to argue with you tooth and nail over card choices. Some of which are obvious even to a beginner Burn player. Have you ever asked yourself why these cards see play or don't see play in the first place before you post?
You recanted your stance on Deflecting Palm and Rending Volley, and have yet to post a rebuttal for not playing Leyline of Punishment other than test it it out and change the primer. Change the primer? You clearly have no idea under what circumstances how primers are updated. You were trying to validate a card choice and have the primer changed based on your personal feelings of a card, and not on real world results in competitive REL tournaments. I have presented results to backup my arguements. So far, you haven't presented any evidence to prove otherwise, and only provided your personal experience, theories, and even resorted to insults. You have been wrong on most, if mot, all accounts, and have zero credibility to your name. I don't understand why you're so hellbent to get everybody here to think the same way as you you. If you want your arguement to have any substance and not make yourself look like you're theory crafting, present results from competitive REL tournaments, or statistical data. This is all Speech & Debate 101!
tl;dr - Stop with the insults. Show proof or shut up.
Dispatch
The Twin variant sees play because the Slinter Twin combo exists on a different axis than Living End does, and it pressures the opponent more just by running both combos. It isn't any different from other hybrid decks like BreachShift or UWR with Kiki-Jiki. Since the combos are so different, your opponent will have a hard time sideboarding because, a hate card for one combo isn't good against the other. Also, both combos go off as early as turn 3, and you're playing roughly 12 cards that do it. That's an insane amount of pressure your opponent has to deal with. As for cutting land destruction for Twin, ask yourself this, would you rather be in a winning position, or just win?
I'm not saying it is better than traditional Living End, but it certainly does have its merits. Afterall, two Twinning End lists made top8 at SCG States.
First of all, no Burn player in his right mind will bolt a Brindle Boar, unless he has Skullcrack mana up. That's just a huge tempo loss and a waste of cards. Also, Burn only cares about the ETB trigger of Baloth, not the 4/4 body. They will just Skullcrack you, and let you keep the creature. Burn has been doing the same thing against Siege Rhino.
I don't see anything that strikes me as odd, except for a couple of speculative cards in the sideboard. What problems are you having?
The quote, and his card choices for 2014 States (where he made 4th place, btw) can be found here. He makes an almost convincing case to run Mogg Fanatic. Almost.
He should write another Burn Primer since so much has changed since KTK.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82739
Whipflare is still very much relevant. I did an aggregate for the 24 Affinity decks in States, and the 1st Whipflare was at the top of the list with 23. The mainboard for states was -1 MoE -1 Welding Jar, and +1 Ensoul Artifact +1 Etched Champion. The sideboard was mostly the same except there was a second Blood Moon in the board.
I also did another aggregate adding the data from states to the ones I did above, and the mainboard and sideboard was still the same. I thought it would change since I used 59 lists for the first aggregate. So, this one included a total of 83 deck lists.
This is all very interesting. Can you post the aggregate for the sideboard?
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite
2 Thoughtseize
2 Etched Champion
2 Whipflare
1 Blood Moon
1 Torpor Orb
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wear//Tear
The 1st Thoughtseize and the 1st Whipflare were tied for the 4th slot. The 1st Dismember and the 1st Torpor Orb were tied for the 13th slot. The 16th card was the 3rd Thoughtseize. The "3rd" Etched Champion, 1st Illness in the Ranks, 1st Relic of Progenitus, and the 2nd Spell Pierce were all tied for the 17th slot.
Looking at the mainboard again, the 1st MoE and the 1st Thoughtcast were tied for the 47th slot. The 1st Galvanic Blast and the 2nd Steel Overseer were tied for the 50th slot. What I found most interesting here was the 2nd Galvanic Blast, 2nd Thoughtcast, and the 1st Welding Jar were all tied for the 52nd slot.
For clarification, I've only used decklists I've found on mtgtop8, and none of the lists from States are in here. If I have to conclude something, it's people favor MoE slightly more than Etched Champion, Welding Jar is worth a slot, and Ensoul Artifact is ok. I'll work on a sideboard with the same data.
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
1 Island
Creatures
4 Ornithopter
3 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
4 Signal Pest
3 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Etched Champion
3 Master of Etherium
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
2 Thoughtcast
2 Galvanic Blast
1 Welding Jar
The 61st card was the first Ensoul Artifact.
Because you still take damage from T1 fetch into Mountain. I honestly don't see why everybody else sees the enters play tapped as a downside. The 4th land drop doesn't matter for Burn, and the deck operates just fine with 3 lands in play. Also, at come the point where you do play a fourth land, you pretty much played most or all the spells in your hand anyway. Rootbound Crag is worse because it makes 1 land hands unkeepable when it's the only land in your hand.
I believe your victory against Storm was mostly due to the fact that you put so much pressure on him early so that he is forced to go off on turn 2 or 3, or lose, and it's very unlikely of Storm to successfully go off earlier than turn 4. Also, Kor Firewalker is next to useless against Storm, at least against a competent player, and here's why: Storm copies, and those from Pyromancer Ascension are not cast. Therefore, you don't gain life from the copies. Also, Storm usually runs 2 or more Grapeshots in the mainboard. So, one casting of Grapeshot is enough to negate the lifegain from Firewalker, and the second one is enough to bring you to zero.
What have you done to help the community? All that you've done so far is call people inept, insult their reading comprehension skills, and intelligence. I, for one, am getting sick and tired of your attitude! Everybody in this thread had to argue with you tooth and nail over card choices. Some of which are obvious even to a beginner Burn player. Have you ever asked yourself why these cards see play or don't see play in the first place before you post?
You recanted your stance on Deflecting Palm and Rending Volley, and have yet to post a rebuttal for not playing Leyline of Punishment other than test it it out and change the primer. Change the primer? You clearly have no idea under what circumstances how primers are updated. You were trying to validate a card choice and have the primer changed based on your personal feelings of a card, and not on real world results in competitive REL tournaments. I have presented results to backup my arguements. So far, you haven't presented any evidence to prove otherwise, and only provided your personal experience, theories, and even resorted to insults. You have been wrong on most, if mot, all accounts, and have zero credibility to your name. I don't understand why you're so hellbent to get everybody here to think the same way as you you. If you want your arguement to have any substance and not make yourself look like you're theory crafting, present results from competitive REL tournaments, or statistical data. This is all Speech & Debate 101!
tl;dr - Stop with the insults. Show proof or shut up.