I just watched it go nuts with 2x Exploration in a Legacy game.
Better late then never. I have a friend that plays lands in legacy, he's spoke to me about the card. I also see some storm variants using Experimental Frenzy as well. I thought about it, and I like it but I can't figure out what to use. I mean, I very often feel like I don't have a full hand anyway, and being able to see the card at any point lets us know when its time to kill it.
Future Sight seems a bit hard to cast, even with our deck mana fixing. Have you tried EF in the last 2 months?
Hi Taleran, Nice to see you're still trying new things and contributing here. I took a slight hiatus (normal routine) from posting but am back for now. I found it interesting that you mentioned CoA had a lack of mass removal (previous post). My strategy, game dependent of course, is typically focused on getting CoA on the battlefield as soon possible, with enabler (Sac outlet or something)...but at least on the field. The board wipe then typically occurs on its own. With adequate ramp, it isn't uncommon to see CoA on turn 3.
Anyway, how has it treated you?
Hey all. Working on getting better with the deck, curious about various control MU's. UW Control specifically, what does the MU look like and what SB considerations are we looking at? I seem to be struggling with control MUs. I try to focus on Empty the Warrens and cut down the Gifts, but looking for general advice in that MU.
Never ran Dark Confidant, that being said I would. I just haven't had a need for it. I agree with umtiger that it is likely an outstanding early turn play.
Digs for a land and puts it into play, probably worth trying out
I don't think I'll be testing it out anytime soon. I do think its a decent card, I'm not sure it has a home here. I suppose for me its limited itself to the top 5 and possibly losing another tool. I can see this in builds with less access to other tools though. Guess I'd rather do something else when I play a 3 mana creature. Just me though, I don't think this is awful.
We can definitely agree that every CoA pilot has their goals to achieve, game to game with the deck. It isn't one of those decks that 90 cards will always be set in stone. I will say this, that having the Maze End win con does reduce the amount of cards we can really play with. I believe that if a deck runs Maze End to win, at least this one where we are very effecive at assembling it, I believe it should be me more of an all-in. But of course that is my approach, I have come across plenty of pilots in online channels that just kind of have it.
I use Diamond Valley, but I have cut it to try other things (it is currently in the binder now), however to be honest if I had to go somewhere where it was an extremely competitive multiplayer environment, I'm running it. That being said, I would also be running Deserted Temple. I guess for me, I approach each game with a similar plan. #1 Play CoA asap with enabler, #2 Establish CoA lock if not already, #3 Maze End win con. Temple for me is just another piece of that puzzle with some added synergy.
What else is Deserted Temple doing besides untapping Maze's End? This tactic isn't even similar to the Thawing Glaciers because picking up Maze is part of the cost.
Playing a colorless land is a huge cost.
I Disagree. Playing a land that doesn't tap for any mana is a huge cost. Diamond Valley for me falls into this category, which is why I'm not afraid to cut it. In addition to Deserted Temple untapping Maze End (and I know this may be a stretch) it allows you to bait your opponents. Your opponents will quickly learn what your enablers are, and if they become tapped they may believe that the tool used to sac CoA isn't available. As it has been for me many times, it has allowed me to untap my enabler and blow up the board, effectively baiting the opponents into a false sense of security. Its uses go beyond that, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the utility it can bring.
I am still looking for the list from Eli Kassis played at the last GP to top 16 finish. I dont like lists from special mixed events like the SCG Invitational.
In addition, I see lists with fecthes, and the one from Caleb does not have fetches. What is the reason behind this? Save life?
Fetchless makes your deck more consistent because when you are putting cards on the bottom of your library with Serum Visions and other cantrips, they dont get shuffled when you fetch. Your life total is better, Shattering Spree is better and you rather play that over By Force because you will have much more red sources. The drawback is you can't play Blood Moon, and opponent's Blood Moon can screw you. Those are just off the top of my head.
I personally started with the fetchless and changed back to fetch version. While there are a lot of pros for fetchless, I think that Blood Moon is just too important in certain matchup, though, is that its not good on the draw, I don't even bring it on on the draw against most decks. However, against Eldrazi and Taxes its our only way to change the matchup %.
While the life total will be less, its is only slightly less because we usually are fetching for Islands almost every time. Matchups where life really matters, like Burn and Affinity, I'd rather give up the small %. We are pretty good vs Affinity, and against burn its one of the worst matchups but the matchup is so bad anyways I dont really care . Plus the fact that Burn is actually not that common anymore, I'd rather have more game vs the other decks where Blood Moon can help; Against Eldrasi Taxes, its our saving grace, and sometimes a turn 2 or 3 Blood Moon can just win the game vs a ton of decks for us outright.
As for the more consistency, the main part that fetchless helps is getting to Pieces of the Puzzle or Empty the Warrens post board, and that's by far the biggest reason to run it. By turn 3 you have close to 100% chance to draw it if you used 1 or 2 cantrips the turns before. However, Fetches do slim the deck of lands, so you still are gaining small consistency there at least.
I had a question about fetchless vs fetches. I had stepped away from UR Gifts about 7-8 months ago, wanted to start it up again and noticed favor going to fetchless. I asked what that was about before finding this 10 pages or so ago.
Is there any other thoughts to this? It seems that not being able to run or combat Bloodmoon is one of the primary issues?
I love your list and great primer! For context, my pod is semi-casual so my deck build fairs pretty well with a 60% winrate. I'm testing out a Mindslaver as well as Temporal Manipulation for additional win conditions since one of the problems I've constantly faced is closing out the game. Especially since I'm testing out Muldrotha, the Gravetide in place of Sun Titan. I'm also running a little more basics to combat blood moon effects as well as more exile spells to deal with indestructible permanents CoA can't deal with (my pod is a little indestructible heavy). I'm also running World Shaper in place of splendid reclamation with much success. The addition of Tatyova, Benthic Druid is god send honestly and has helped me get the gas and engine going in multiple games. I think that has earned a permanent spot in my deck.
This is my decklist and would appreciate for any critique.
Hello and welcome. I appreciate your list. Mindslaver as a wincon sounds pretty fun. I think its outside of what I'm trying to accomplish but its a fresh take.
I do believe your creature count is a bit high. Now, I'm biased in saying that considering I am only running 7. I tend to make up for it through a couple more enchantments. While both are affected by CoA, the enchantments are a little harder for an opponent to remove, and typically once the damage is done thats it, like Manabond.
While I don't think there is much value in talking about every choice, I would recommend Deserted Temple. I didn't see it in your list, forgive me if I missed it. This with your Scapeshift-Maze End combo allows for the instant win, not to mention can provide other surprise synergy. Typically play groups start to identify what lands are your 'enablers'. Once they see them tapped, they strike. Deserted Temple is always a sneaky way of always having an answer.
In regard to my list, I'm a fan of redundancy, probably a bit to much. I don't really struggle when I pilot, and I put in plenty of draw abilities that support having a more redundant list and possible dead draws. I'm at 57-58 lands including Maze's End.
I love me some World Breaker but it doesn't fit for my approach. You should give it a shot and report back. Its a body that I think sometimes is underestimated in here.
Not sure about this new card. The modes look super sweet but saga cards deny us for 2 turns to nuke our Child :/
I just came to post about it. I think this could find a home. The downside as you point out is 2 turns to apply a nuke; however thats probably a more manageable one. With the right timing it would be good, but looking at the effect, we have 2 or 3 cards that allow us to put what we want on from the yard to the field. It becomes a question of if the card is worth a spot. I like the digging ability that syncs with CoA and perhaps something else useful. Basically pop CoA, get him back and you only have to wait 1 turn.
https://imgur.com/a/SQYJe
Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
Probably not something I'll run as it isn't a likely win condition I'd pursue but I'm sure some of us wouldn't mind taking a look at this.
https://imgur.com/a/S0tyU
Final Parting
This is actually something that can help, especially budget lists that may not have Intuition and other similar spells.
These are just my personal reactions to the suggestions. I believe that if you want to play any of them, you should.
World Breaker - Is a little too costly. I like it's effect, but we're not playing Wastes so it wouldn't be good Moon insurance. We play lots of colorless. So if you feel like you need the effect in your meta to evade counter magic, it's a good tool.
Storage Matrix - If you're going stax, I think the Child of Alara sac-loop is a better lock. There are also some other artifacts you could choose first (e.g. Null Rod).
Herald of Leshrac - This is a fun card. You should run it if you want to. It's a very cool card and if you happen to have a way to easier sacrifice the lands (i.e. Zuran Orb) that's a even more fun for you.
Burning Sands - You lose one land, every else has to potential to lose everything. Sounds good. If this is something you want to do, I believe that you can also play and build around Global Ruin as well. I play too many utility lands to run that, but I also play Prismatic Omen. But setting up Strip Mine/Wasteland recursion is enough land destruction for me.
Spreading Plague - I would rather run more universal answers or exile/bounce to remove indestructibles than play a creature-stax piece like this. Child is already your nuclear option.
One thing I wanted to say before sharing my thoughts, I agree if you want to play a card go for it. I think sometimes I may come off as preachy but I don't intent to. I think every few months (usually based on new releases) I may change 2-3 cards around. I'm so content with the amount of time I've piloted the deck and selections that I'd say roughly 90 cards are set for me, not leaving much room to work with.
I think with this deck before making choices you really have to ask yourself what you want to do with Child of Alara. Is he there to setup a 'lock', or is he there to support your strategy and just use as the 'oh crap' button. I go with the lock out strategy, where my game plan no matter what is get CoA on the field, and make sure I have an 'enabler', or a sac outlet. This includes a solid recursion effect as well. I also have contingencies and various support elements that both help achieve that lock state and act as a back up if I'm unable to get there. Others don't like this game plan as it isn't interactive and upsets opponents. I only 'pop' CoA when threatened, encouraging my opponents to not come at me.
Herald of Leshrac seems really fun and interactive, I would also agree it might be beneficial to combo it with something that can sacrifice the lands. I say this only because CoA doesn't favor creature heavy strategies in this deck.
Tainted Aether and Burning Sands are pretty interesting together. If you run enough land recursion effects the benefits outweigh the negatives. This goes back to my first comment though, what are you trying to do with CoA? Is tutoring for the enchantments something you would try to do, or is it just a support card if you get it? Personally, and I agree with umtiger, I believe CoA can cover the creature threat and unlimited access to strip mine/wasteland effects are enough land destruction for me. I'd be afraid to use CoA and lose the enchantment, I doubt its something I would fish out of the grave yard immediately.
Manabond is, for the most part, an auto-include. I'd argue Journey to Eternity is almost there too considering how good it is for us, however that depends on everyones unique take. Corpse Dance has one been one of my favorite tricky instants. It doesn't always have to target CoA, but it does put importance on ensuring your graveyard is accurate. When someone thinks they can all in you because you don't have CoA in play, this move typically sucks the life out of them (if you can sac it).
I'd also say GSZ is probably a good auto include. I mean, we use green creatures to ramp and its a tutor for those, and a tutor for CoA if it ends up in our library.
Has anybody experimented with Instants to trigger CoA ? I'm talking about cards like Costly Plunder or Rescue from the Underworld.
The primer just quickly mentions this option, but being lands-based this deck lacks surprise elements. Afaik, the only other similar option mentioned in the primer would be to cast Crop Rotation to tutor for a sac outlet.
Not sure I agree with it lacking surprise elements. Everyone's list is different, some have the Maze plan some don't, some use instants to help trigger or fog effects, some don't.
Personally I don't care for using spells as a sac outlet. Its nice and efficient when you can clear the board and draw two cards (Costly Plunder), I just prefer the consistency of the land sources when it comes to sac outlets, and I'd rather the spells do other things. Often times I don't appear to have a sac outlet on board, yet I have an instant in hand (lets say Crop Rotation) that can get me to that land.
On that note, I actually think Child of Alara's recursion should have more of the focus. Getting him in the yard is easy, getting him back on the board continuously can be a challenge once everyone knows the plan.
[quote from="yaWgnorW »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/217247-child-of-alara-lands-dec?comment=677"]
With 58 lands, I expect to draw 3 cards of Treasure Hunt at least. Which means that it is 1 mana more expensive than Ancestral Recall. I'd call that efficient
I don't disagree. The probability of drawing 3 cards is great, considering the 2CC cost is nothing for this deck to produce. I came at it from the idea that I want this card to be big, otherwise I could find more valuable cards that get me similar value.
We got another interesting card. It could replace horn of greed. On the one hand it doesn't need the land to be played, is restricted only to lands that enter und our control and we gain 1 life. On the other hand it's a bit expensive and the body isn't the best. What are your thoughts?
It can be tutored by more common tutors (GSZ, Bring To Light)
It is asymmetric
It can be recursed by the same cards as CoA
The life gain can become important
Cons:
It's a creature, thus more vulnerable
It's more expensive to cast
Am I missing something ?
Personally, I'm not sure. It makes Manabond and Burgeoning stronger, but the fact that Horn of Greed is symmetrical is rarely important. Unless there is an Azusa, Lost but Seeking deck at the battle, we will take the most advantage out of it and we can use the Horn politically. The body part isn't what I fear the most personally. Usually, when I get attacked and need blockers, I should blow up the table anyway.
Being an uncommon, it won't be hard to get it, which is nice and will make testing easy.
I think a con of all permanents in the deck is that they are permanents. I do believe that we should try to limit the total number of permanents based on whats comfortable, for me its under 20. The value of a permanent in this deck should be partially weighed by how it helps us get to cast CoA and form that CoA lock. After that is established it should be weighed by how it helps us win. Can't forget that if we pop CoA we lose the permanent and we may have other more important targets to grab out of the graveyard.
This is a nice potential addition for some, but I think it would have to replace one of our creatures. Horn of Greed is an option, however its all relative depending on the time of drop and execution. This new card has the higher cost issue and more susceptibility to removal, but I very much like drawing. The problem for me is, the other creatures we run typically do something else in addition to another effect. Finding the most efficient will win out for me, I don't believe this will be it. I love redundancy but there can be to much sometimes.
Better late then never. I have a friend that plays lands in legacy, he's spoke to me about the card. I also see some storm variants using Experimental Frenzy as well. I thought about it, and I like it but I can't figure out what to use. I mean, I very often feel like I don't have a full hand anyway, and being able to see the card at any point lets us know when its time to kill it.
Future Sight seems a bit hard to cast, even with our deck mana fixing. Have you tried EF in the last 2 months?
Anyway, how has it treated you?
I don't think I'll be testing it out anytime soon. I do think its a decent card, I'm not sure it has a home here. I suppose for me its limited itself to the top 5 and possibly losing another tool. I can see this in builds with less access to other tools though. Guess I'd rather do something else when I play a 3 mana creature. Just me though, I don't think this is awful.
I use Diamond Valley, but I have cut it to try other things (it is currently in the binder now), however to be honest if I had to go somewhere where it was an extremely competitive multiplayer environment, I'm running it. That being said, I would also be running Deserted Temple. I guess for me, I approach each game with a similar plan. #1 Play CoA asap with enabler, #2 Establish CoA lock if not already, #3 Maze End win con. Temple for me is just another piece of that puzzle with some added synergy.
I Disagree. Playing a land that doesn't tap for any mana is a huge cost. Diamond Valley for me falls into this category, which is why I'm not afraid to cut it. In addition to Deserted Temple untapping Maze End (and I know this may be a stretch) it allows you to bait your opponents. Your opponents will quickly learn what your enablers are, and if they become tapped they may believe that the tool used to sac CoA isn't available. As it has been for me many times, it has allowed me to untap my enabler and blow up the board, effectively baiting the opponents into a false sense of security. Its uses go beyond that, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the utility it can bring.
I had a question about fetchless vs fetches. I had stepped away from UR Gifts about 7-8 months ago, wanted to start it up again and noticed favor going to fetchless. I asked what that was about before finding this 10 pages or so ago.
Is there any other thoughts to this? It seems that not being able to run or combat Bloodmoon is one of the primary issues?
Hello and welcome. I appreciate your list. Mindslaver as a wincon sounds pretty fun. I think its outside of what I'm trying to accomplish but its a fresh take.
I do believe your creature count is a bit high. Now, I'm biased in saying that considering I am only running 7. I tend to make up for it through a couple more enchantments. While both are affected by CoA, the enchantments are a little harder for an opponent to remove, and typically once the damage is done thats it, like Manabond.
While I don't think there is much value in talking about every choice, I would recommend Deserted Temple. I didn't see it in your list, forgive me if I missed it. This with your Scapeshift-Maze End combo allows for the instant win, not to mention can provide other surprise synergy. Typically play groups start to identify what lands are your 'enablers'. Once they see them tapped, they strike. Deserted Temple is always a sneaky way of always having an answer.
In regard to my list, I'm a fan of redundancy, probably a bit to much. I don't really struggle when I pilot, and I put in plenty of draw abilities that support having a more redundant list and possible dead draws. I'm at 57-58 lands including Maze's End.
I love me some World Breaker but it doesn't fit for my approach. You should give it a shot and report back. Its a body that I think sometimes is underestimated in here.
I just came to post about it. I think this could find a home. The downside as you point out is 2 turns to apply a nuke; however thats probably a more manageable one. With the right timing it would be good, but looking at the effect, we have 2 or 3 cards that allow us to put what we want on from the yard to the field. It becomes a question of if the card is worth a spot. I like the digging ability that syncs with CoA and perhaps something else useful. Basically pop CoA, get him back and you only have to wait 1 turn.
https://imgur.com/a/SQYJe
Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
Probably not something I'll run as it isn't a likely win condition I'd pursue but I'm sure some of us wouldn't mind taking a look at this.
https://imgur.com/a/S0tyU
Final Parting
This is actually something that can help, especially budget lists that may not have Intuition and other similar spells.
One thing I wanted to say before sharing my thoughts, I agree if you want to play a card go for it. I think sometimes I may come off as preachy but I don't intent to. I think every few months (usually based on new releases) I may change 2-3 cards around. I'm so content with the amount of time I've piloted the deck and selections that I'd say roughly 90 cards are set for me, not leaving much room to work with.
I think with this deck before making choices you really have to ask yourself what you want to do with Child of Alara. Is he there to setup a 'lock', or is he there to support your strategy and just use as the 'oh crap' button. I go with the lock out strategy, where my game plan no matter what is get CoA on the field, and make sure I have an 'enabler', or a sac outlet. This includes a solid recursion effect as well. I also have contingencies and various support elements that both help achieve that lock state and act as a back up if I'm unable to get there. Others don't like this game plan as it isn't interactive and upsets opponents. I only 'pop' CoA when threatened, encouraging my opponents to not come at me.
Herald of Leshrac seems really fun and interactive, I would also agree it might be beneficial to combo it with something that can sacrifice the lands. I say this only because CoA doesn't favor creature heavy strategies in this deck.
Tainted Aether and Burning Sands are pretty interesting together. If you run enough land recursion effects the benefits outweigh the negatives. This goes back to my first comment though, what are you trying to do with CoA? Is tutoring for the enchantments something you would try to do, or is it just a support card if you get it? Personally, and I agree with umtiger, I believe CoA can cover the creature threat and unlimited access to strip mine/wasteland effects are enough land destruction for me. I'd be afraid to use CoA and lose the enchantment, I doubt its something I would fish out of the grave yard immediately.
I'd also say GSZ is probably a good auto include. I mean, we use green creatures to ramp and its a tutor for those, and a tutor for CoA if it ends up in our library.
Not sure I agree with it lacking surprise elements. Everyone's list is different, some have the Maze plan some don't, some use instants to help trigger or fog effects, some don't.
Personally I don't care for using spells as a sac outlet. Its nice and efficient when you can clear the board and draw two cards (Costly Plunder), I just prefer the consistency of the land sources when it comes to sac outlets, and I'd rather the spells do other things. Often times I don't appear to have a sac outlet on board, yet I have an instant in hand (lets say Crop Rotation) that can get me to that land.
On that note, I actually think Child of Alara's recursion should have more of the focus. Getting him in the yard is easy, getting him back on the board continuously can be a challenge once everyone knows the plan.
I don't disagree. The probability of drawing 3 cards is great, considering the 2CC cost is nothing for this deck to produce. I came at it from the idea that I want this card to be big, otherwise I could find more valuable cards that get me similar value.
I think a con of all permanents in the deck is that they are permanents. I do believe that we should try to limit the total number of permanents based on whats comfortable, for me its under 20. The value of a permanent in this deck should be partially weighed by how it helps us get to cast CoA and form that CoA lock. After that is established it should be weighed by how it helps us win. Can't forget that if we pop CoA we lose the permanent and we may have other more important targets to grab out of the graveyard.
This is a nice potential addition for some, but I think it would have to replace one of our creatures. Horn of Greed is an option, however its all relative depending on the time of drop and execution. This new card has the higher cost issue and more susceptibility to removal, but I very much like drawing. The problem for me is, the other creatures we run typically do something else in addition to another effect. Finding the most efficient will win out for me, I don't believe this will be it. I love redundancy but there can be to much sometimes.