I am going to try to help you with your brew. I am not a fan of this list as I don't think you provide enough threat to win off of your tempo game considering that most removal is at instant speed and eventually they will have the mana to deal with your creatures and ultimately 2 threats (magantic sliver just isn't enough)
I know, the clock isn't fast enough as is.
The idea was that "eventually" wouldn't be fast enough for the opponent to wait for their answers. and as they find them, they would be met with a counter. That's one of the reasons I thought it should be more tempo oriented than control.
You will need more than 1 or 2 sac outlets if you are playing with Dormant Sliver which I would recommend in any prison sliver strategy which you seem to be more aiming to.
I don't want this deck to be a prison deck that goes on and on for turns. I rather end it at most until the 7th turn. That basically why I try to consider it as a tempo deck more than a control one. Well, at least control is not how I intend for it to be.
I may not need traditional lords if I got a legion alike and a necrotic alike, like you said. That would be the Megantic and the Telekinetic respectively.
I just keep writing about a 2 sliver in the battlefield setup because I agree with you that there will be a lot of removal against the deck. So if I manage to build it around that minimum, then I think it wouldn't be a problem with a mass of slivers.
Remove the lands is better than keeping (and tapping) them. got it. I think the same, but it will make the game go too long for me to control. Land destruction spells tend to be expensive (mana wise). or you pay it with mana (stone rain) or with your own permanents (boom//bust, smallpox, crack the earth). I built a Ponza like deck for a friend of mine and I'm building a dega/mardu pox with mentioned cards above. I don't think that it's the way for this deck, so I considered a strategy that would deny thier mana as well but not rely on many heavy spells (3cc) which would require me to ramp into nor double edge effects.
Diffusion Sliver can hold on for only so much. I would like the diffusion to be as relevant as possible, so the solution I came up with was tapping lands and/or keep tapped and I realized that it would need some light counter at least for certain situations, but as the deck was, I was not such how to make it fit in the list. It will probably need some number of filtering to find them as well.
I very much agree with the Taking Turns analogy, I was actually considering that deck as reference for my build. That deck plays similarly before it start taking turns.
I also agree with the possible aggro plan if needed. One of the first version of this build, I was using Blur Sliver and Firewake Sliver which sac ability was quite relevant.
I do realize the deck needs to be faster, I even wrote it at the end of my first comment. I was running Hidden Strings to untap my lands at some point, but I end up with that list considering removals and the space left.
The other problem I see with my list is that it requires too many spells in a specific sequence in order for it to work.
The way it is, it's hard to set such a sequence even with numbers of filter/cantrips. This list progressed alot since my first version months ago, starting with Monastery Siege as Diffusion Slivers 5-8 to a list that at times can completely lock the opponent out of the game by turn 6. "at times" is not good enough, but the Siege can be good against burn though.
I used to have a list with the same ideas you provided, back in 2007. It was only UG though and ended the game with either Screeching Sliver, Virulent Sliver or Psionic Sliver. It had the same idea of the "Opposition Slivers" backed up with counters. But it's very control oriented.
I don't want you to think I'm disregarding the deck lists you provided some how. It's just that I had already built something like that in the past and it was too much of a control list.
I'm starting to reconsider my old Mardu Sliver deck though.
It used to work in my meta.
Maybe with No rest for the Wicked and Basal Sliver, a big spell...
Well, anyway.
Sorry for the long post and thanks the help.
The list is a work in progress and the sideboard is a bit generic, but I'm more worried about the consistency and speed of the main deck now.
Since most decks in Tier 1 uses fetches, if not all of them, and generally a "keepable hand" with those decks consist of possibly 2 fetches, when they are goldfishing, a turn 1 Root Maze could deprive them from mana until their 3rd turn. With some spells that help complement this strategy like Early Frost (on the opponent upkeep) and probably Reduce // Rubble, it would be possible to keep the opponent completely out of the whole game while sliver beating them. Decks that don't use fetches usually play with some amount of artifacts which could be delayed with Root Maze as well.
Other card that play an important whole here is Diffusion Sliver, which with the Maze is capable of keeping his ability relevant for enough time to close the game.
Of course, Root Maze would make your lands come into play tapped, but since there is Crumbling Vestige I start thinking that maybe it could be mitigated to the point where it wouldn't matter as much as it would for the other side of the table.
This list has become quite thigh, that's why I'm with Megantic Sliver. With this Sliver out and any other sliver, you got a 2 turn clock. If I manage to make it stick with the list (and cast it), it would be very space saving.
Another idea would be using a set of Virulent Sliver main deck. It wound help the early game after playing Root Maze, so then I wouldn't rely on Crumbling Vestige that much and have an alternative win condition in case I can't find Megantic.
This deck is an idea that I would like to become a possible competitive counterpart of slivers in Modern. And since it's build around a specific strategy against the meta, it could be considered a Counter Sliver
I liked the way this combo goes and was considering this archetype for modern and I was looking for a version of modern Eggs featuring Artificer's Intuition and Locket of Yesterdays, but I only found the Legacy version from (Greg Hatch).
Does anyone have an idea of how could a list with does two card be?
I was thinking of using Artificer's Intuition to put 2 copies of Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia and 1 copy of Locket of Yesterdays in the grave and cast a Locket for 1 mana and play the other two Lockets for free then cast the 3rd and 4th of Chalice and Cornucopia with 3 Lockets in play, tap them for 10 mana (6 colorless and 4 of any color) and maybe using Paradoxical Outcome returning some eggs with copies on grave to draw some cards and cast them again for free. That's just an idea, but I still rather play Faith's Reward which would be a different approach.
Now, talking about approach, what about a single Approach of the Second Sun as the win con? I mean, i know it can be countered, but it could be just drawn back again with Conjurer's Bauble, right?
my meta is unknown and I used to play mainly High Tide and Burn in Legacy so I'm not sure how modern is, so I think the sideboard would be a bit generic for now.
@danchou_man: I get what do you mean when considering Nettle Sentinel as an 1cc option and I agree, but I think that BbearZ opinion is that by running Nettle Sentinel it may lead to situations in which you might need it untapped and due to the game situation you can't, be it for a certain strategy path which could win you the game or even topdeck mode. Situation in which could be prevented by running, say a, Kessig Prowler instead. The addition of Nettle Sentinel might possibly change the way you would play with the deck and even restraining your lines of play.
As a possible analogy it is like the discussion on Monastery Swiftspear in a Burn Deck, in which it seems like a interesting option, but it also might lead you to change you play style by making you cast burn spells before or during combat phase in order to get more damage out of the Prowess trigger, limiting you about occasional changes in strategy that might be needed.
Hi, I just wanted to share this report from a small Legacy event I went that happened 2 years ago, I thought it would be the correct place to leave it.
1 Izzet: [won 2 - lost 0]
First game casted Turnabout at EOT to tap him out he countered, but had no other counters after that so I brainfreezed him holding a USZ just in case. Second game he boarded his entire sideboard and I just noticed when I casted Brain Freeze for around 60 cards and he told me, with a smile, "I have 75 cards in my deck" and then I thought, that was pretty bad, but I thought "OK, I will just use Time Reversal so then he can draw all those extra cards he pulled in the deck with USZ this time" (my mistake, not paying attention), new seven, high tides, lands and counters, I had to pass the turn at 13 life against a total of 4 power from creatures and a new hand probably full of burn spells, I thought it would be OK because I've got Counterbalance on battlefield and the full set of Cloud of Faeries in case I need block, I even thought about attacking, but it would take 5 turns and I was tapped out at this time. He attacked for 4, I'm at 9, and he casted Breaking Point, I was expecting a Bolt, so destroy all creatures, my turn, cantrip, turnabout in hand, pass, my opponent cast a Hypersonic Dragon, I'm at 5, just needed some draw spell like Time Reversal or USZ or ... draw a Merchant Scroll, great, go off, Merchant Scroll into USZ and cast Brain Freeze for over 75 and was about to cast USZ on him, but he conceded.
2 WR: [won 2 - lost 0]
the guy was brandnew to Magic and was there to learn more and test his deck, quite nice guy.
3 Goblins: [won 2 - lost 1]
bad hands. all three games I started with only one land on my hand, didn't wanted to mulligan. I won the first one with four lands on play as far as I remember; second game got stuck with only one island and after several cantrips and no other lands found, I lost; and third game I managed to find one other Island of the top after some cantrips and had to go off with only two. my hand was like 2 Cloud of Faeries, 1 High Tide, 1 Time Reversal, 1 Dispel, 1 Echoing Truth (I think) and a second Snap from my drawstep. I played High Tide, cloud of faeries and Snap it, I considered and was expecting some sort of answer for Snap like a Lightning Bolt on the Clouds, but my opponent responded recycling a Gempalm Incinerator, "good riddance", at this time I thought I would lost this match up by another answer or fizzling, Gempalm resolved, Cloud to the grave and Snap countered. 2 mana on pool, cast the second Cloud, second Snap and Time Reversal only three mana available, new seven with another Cloud and Snap with High Tides and cantrips, only in the middle of the combo I found another Island and finally play the third Island, Brain Freeze him for 69 if I remember.
4 UR DragonStorm:
first game I attempted to tap him out at EOT with Turnabout he countered it, then I started going off, he cast Desperate Ritual splicing another Desperate Ritual, I was not sure what he wanted with that, but he would get a lot of mana soon, so I Dispel it and brainfreezed him. game two I went off when he was tapped put, but, when I was finishing I casted a Cloud of Faeries, untapped two islands and took the top card of my library (!!!) literally a mistake, I remember I was counting the mana on my pool and thought "I will check my hand" and, for some odd reason, I took the top card of my library instead. My opponent didn't realised it, he was like "it's OK for me, I'm tapped out", I couldn't continue this way, so I called the Judge and he explained me that due to the circumstances, since there was no legal action which has provided me the opportunity allowing me draw that card, I lost the Round right there. Well at least I did the right thing, the Judget was really happy to be at that tournament, he never expected to be announcing a Legacy/Modern Event and was expecting even less to see a High Tide combo around there. we were going to the third round which could at least give me the opportunity to see a DragonStorm combo running, never seen before. Third round started. I tried to tap him out, he Remanded my Turnabout, so I waited another turn to tap him out and get another island, he countered (again) my Turnabout, I started the combo, casted a Time Reversal and when I tapped all my Islands for mana and casted Turnabout, with only 3 mana on my mana pool, my opponent cast a Remand on my Turnabout, I casted a Dispel on his Remand, he responded with Mana Leak, I remembered I had only one counter in my hand and it just got countered, I was almost saying "ok" and thinking how would I manage to combo again, when I spread the last four cards of my hand I saw, Island, Island, Island and Dispel. Dispel?! "Dispel in response", then I Turnabout and untapped my Islands, I remembered the judge started laughing and walking around, I think it was because of the counterwar, it was funny. So, counterwar won, Islands untapped, continued the combo and with 80+ mana available, I was foiled believing I had USZ on my hand, I was sure I had it there, then I remember I had cast it before on me, that's why I had so many Islands in hand and forgot about the counter in the end, so with no cantrip, tutor or cycling, I had to just finish with Brain Freeze instead ¬¬.
With this, I got 1st place, 7 boosters + 1 booster that was given to every one, and a promo Ratchet Bomb. from the booster I got 2 fetchlands (flooded strand and bloodstained mire) was very nice.
I didn't used the sideboard in any game, I wasn't confident if it would be effective in this environment.
The night before and during the morning before I went to the tournment, I had a strange feeling about having a single Opportunity main deck, so I switched it for the third Preordain to set more lands before the combo turn. I think I was right
Most part of the people there I think were not familiar with the Legacy, but it was really a lot of fun to bring my High Tide brew.
Hi, I was re watching a game back in 2014, a CounterSlivers match up and I found one situation in which it seems like the Sliver player might have cast a cantrip on the first turn, which seems to have lead to a game loss
I know it's a bit of a open question but, about early cantripping, but what would I cantrip for in the first turn? shouldn't I just mulligan instead? what if you already know what you're playing against?
Blake's T1: Drop Flooded Strand, at the end of the opponents turn Blake crack his own fetchland
for a basic Island and cast Brainstorm on the same turn revealing:
Maybe Blake could have kept Hibernation Sliver instead of Harmonic Sliver so he could counter Crop Rotation or if Blake had not cast Brainstorm at all and pitch it for Force of Will to counter Crop Rotation probably winning the match, since all the most relevant cards in this match up was among the three cards on top of his deck or already in Blake's first seven.
Important!: This is just my opinion on the match up, and as far as I have read about and tested, cantripping on the first turns seems to tend to a mistake, of course he didn't know the top cards (no one should) hence the Brainstorm cast. What is the sideboard strategy for Slivers against Lands? But I think the question was what Blake was searching for so early with Brainstorm. I mean, I'm clealy not a expert on CounterSlivers or even Aggro-Control/Tempo decks all together, but wasn't that first seven good enough for not cast a Brainstorm at that point?
Soul Warden and Soul's Attendant nets you life every time a creature comes into play, this includes ninjutsu;
Silverblade Paladin: Hit with two different ninjas from the same unbloacked creature, hitting the first ninja with the first strike combat step and the second ninja with normal combat step.
So, what about that new card spoiled in Shadows Over Innistrad, Pore Over the Pages.
"
Pore Over the Pages {3}{U}{U}
Sorcery
Draw three cards, untap up to two lands, then discard a card.
"
It plays two major wholes for the deck, it Draw cards and Untap lands, just like the old Frantic Search, it can't be found via Merchant Scroll like the previous, but this one would not be a card disadvantage at least.
During the combo it would end up costing one mana, given you had another five mana available initially and only one High Tide cast. I think it might be too heavy to play a full set along side the Spirals, but maybe two could be fine.
Another thing that comes to my mind is that even if it's a interesting choice, where in the deck would you fit it. My first idea would be on the Cunning Wish spot or a 2/1 split with it, since whenever you cast a Wish, you probably already have more mana available for which ever card you're wishing for (except from Surgical Extraction or Ravenous Trap). Or maybe put it on Candleless versions.
Hi again!
this seems to be quite an active thread.
@Snickelfritz
Thanks for the reply and sorry for the misunderstanding, this is not my list. I like the Judge's Familiars on my list too, the "threat" on it's little tax is nice and it might comes nicely if it weld a sword.
I thought on adding Dryad Militant too back there on "Treasure Cruise Era", but I haven't tested.
@Medea
Thanks for the reply. I agree, that list might be budget, which could explain the Sword of Body and Mind over maybe Sword of Fire and Ice, at least I could see me doing so, but, even possibly being a budget list, it performed well and that's what I like about it, congrats for the pilot.
My opinion on the card selection, by the way, might be imprecise since I'm quite unexperienced with this deck's strategy, I might close my own list one day.
I'm just passing by, but I wanted to post this list here since it seems quite different. Not sure if someone saw this list before, sorry if it has already been discussed.
what about the new Chandra from Origins?
(On Spoilers)
1RR
Whenever you cast a red spell, untap Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh.
T: Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh deals 1 damage to target player. If Chandra has dealt 3 or more damage this turn, exile her, then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control.
//
Planeswalker - Chandra
+1: Chandra, Roaring Flame deals 2 damage to target player.
-2: Chandra, Roaring Flame deals 2 damage to target creature.
-7: Chandra, Roaring Flame deals 6 damage to each opponent. Each player dealt damage this way gets an emblem with "At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals 3 damage to you."
Cost 3cc which could compete with Sulfuric Vortex spot (or just be used on side against...Miracles maybe?) and doesn't cause damage when hits the board, but could generate a lot of triggers if happens you chain spells and even put over 3 points of damage on stack by casting instants, triggering her triggered ability and responding your own instants with her activated ability, before becoming a planeswalker which would lead to another 2 points of damage on her +1 ability.
It kind of remember Swiftspear, I mean, on top deck mode and on the chainning spells subject, so I'm not sure about her.
I'm really liking the idea of stacking spells, triggers and activated abilities with her.
Imagine what it would be chaining spells with her on board and taping for damage against something like Counterbalance! How deep could the stack get this way? It could be interesting at least to play such game
Draw island, play island (keeping fetch in hand until last possible moment in case I draw Brainstorm and need to ship away garbage and shuffle). End of turn, play Impulse. Reveal island, opt, Brainstorm, FoW. Keep Brainstorm. Put rest on bottom and shuffle.
I thought Impulse didn't make you shuffle your deck anymore due to errata or I didn't get something?
I think you could try Ravenous Trap against Dredge to gain some more time.
Against Counterbalance, Wipe Away could be used or maybe Spell Pierce it when you got the chance. Other than that, I think it's only really bad if there is a Sensei's Divining Top on the battlefield (as usual), then you could, maybe, start the combo in response to Top's activation, which will trigger Counterbalance, then see what's on the top of the opponent's library and try to combo around that card's converted mana cost. That's what I would try at least, I'm not much familliar with Solidarity though, I've pretty much been playing, Burn, CounterSlivers and sorcery-speed High Tide.
I tried this the UG route with the Chain Stasis + Magus of the Candelabra combo, it's was quite nice, but if you don't find the Magus before the combo turn, you won't be able to use it's tap ability. I was running Autumn's Veil which was really amazing, because once you cast a single one, you won't have to worry about counters until you finish your combo ^^, it was really nice.
I would recommend Realmwright in this build if fetchlands is a issue. Research // Development haven't tested, but could be interesting (although it doesn't put a card in your hand, which is quite bad) and maybe Riftsweeper in case your opponent exile something from you with say Surgical Extraction or for your own Time Spiral's or even against a lethal suspended Rift Bolt, but that would be very narrow.
@NamhciR:
I didn't found Gitaxian Probe to be as essential as it seemed to me when I tested it at least, I used 2 main deck and I found that after I used it once, right before the combo, I didn't want to see it again since it doesn't dig as much as I needed, so I changed them for a pair of Mystic Remora which was quite nice, but ended with Counters which could be used before and during combo.
@SSquirrel:
Nice list you have there, Impulse and Dig Through Time are very nice digging. It would be nice to exile lands when using Dig Through Time in hope not to see them again after a Time Spiral, but despite the fetchlands, it's quite hard to see Islands on grave. Swan Song can be strong some games, just watch out for the token clocking you if you cast it before starting to combo.
I tried 2 Counterbalance maindeck for a while, went to a small event with the list and it's actually quite random without sensei's divining top, because usually you will set your cantrips to find combo pieces and won't be able to fix the top card to counter something. When you can use your cantrips to counterbalance, you probably already have your combo pieces and would be almost as good if it was just another counter. Nevertheless, when it works, it's really good, just nuts! You'll just sit back and watch as your opponents spell are countered and keep making land drops until you get tired enough of watching to go off. I won the event, but removed Counterbalance.
I'm running a single Retraced Image on my list and it's nice, not sure if more would work, because it only work when you have a Island or another permanent card in your hand that you already have on the field.
One thing I noticed is that most of your counters doesn't target creatures and you don't have bounces main deck. It can be hard to fight against things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Canonyst and alike. You can still Wish for a Snap or Wipe Away, but you will also need the Whishes for your win conditions and it can be hard to find anything with Spirit of the Labyrinth on the board.
I'm running a budget version too, but it's a bit more budget, so not sure if I should post around here.
About Swiftspear, it was quite nice so far with Vortex and Lavamancer against creature heavy decks, some games even with Eidolon, but my meta is pretty much aggro or tempo oriented, even combo some times, so I'm not very familiar with grind control and don't know how would it perform on those match ups.
Newer legacy player, I have some experience with ANT/RUG delver and deathblade. What are burns matchups like? I can get a general idea but not sure on everything. deciding to bring this or deathblade to a big event soon
Hey, Gul_Dukat!
Since you're planning to bring your list to an event I would recommend some play testing against Miracles if possible in case you face one, it would be better to have a idea of how this match would be like. D&T would be another match up I would recommend some testing because Thalia, Guardian of Thraben mana denial and First Strike can be tough sometimes.
As for general Match Ups, I think Burn is a very consistent deck that tends to have at least a good match up against most part of the decks and can play around strategies that attempt to lock your game. You'll be playing the "aggro role" most of the time, but it can happen that you might take a more controlish route. A very nice game happened sometime ago between Maverick and Burn, link bellow:
Sideboarding properly can turn around bad match ups and the deck structure can make some answers from your opponent irrelevant. now about specific match up analysis, I rather leave this answer for those who are more experienced with it, because I'm quite new to Legacy too, but I think you got a great list there and I agree with @Lormador and I also think that Burn is a great deck.
Thanks for the reply.
I know, the clock isn't fast enough as is.
The idea was that "eventually" wouldn't be fast enough for the opponent to wait for their answers. and as they find them, they would be met with a counter. That's one of the reasons I thought it should be more tempo oriented than control.
I don't want this deck to be a prison deck that goes on and on for turns. I rather end it at most until the 7th turn. That basically why I try to consider it as a tempo deck more than a control one. Well, at least control is not how I intend for it to be.
I may not need traditional lords if I got a legion alike and a necrotic alike, like you said. That would be the Megantic and the Telekinetic respectively.
Sliver Legion and Megantic Sliver deals the same amount of damage when paired with another 1/1 sliver. It's one more mana, but it makes both evade Anger of the Gods/Sweltering Suns/Slagstorm.
I just keep writing about a 2 sliver in the battlefield setup because I agree with you that there will be a lot of removal against the deck. So if I manage to build it around that minimum, then I think it wouldn't be a problem with a mass of slivers.
Remove the lands is better than keeping (and tapping) them. got it. I think the same, but it will make the game go too long for me to control. Land destruction spells tend to be expensive (mana wise). or you pay it with mana (stone rain) or with your own permanents (boom//bust, smallpox, crack the earth). I built a Ponza like deck for a friend of mine and I'm building a dega/mardu pox with mentioned cards above. I don't think that it's the way for this deck, so I considered a strategy that would deny thier mana as well but not rely on many heavy spells (3cc) which would require me to ramp into nor double edge effects.
Diffusion Sliver can hold on for only so much. I would like the diffusion to be as relevant as possible, so the solution I came up with was tapping lands and/or keep tapped and I realized that it would need some light counter at least for certain situations, but as the deck was, I was not such how to make it fit in the list. It will probably need some number of filtering to find them as well.
I very much agree with the Taking Turns analogy, I was actually considering that deck as reference for my build. That deck plays similarly before it start taking turns.
I also agree with the possible aggro plan if needed. One of the first version of this build, I was using Blur Sliver and Firewake Sliver which sac ability was quite relevant.
I do realize the deck needs to be faster, I even wrote it at the end of my first comment. I was running Hidden Strings to untap my lands at some point, but I end up with that list considering removals and the space left.
The other problem I see with my list is that it requires too many spells in a specific sequence in order for it to work.
The way it is, it's hard to set such a sequence even with numbers of filter/cantrips. This list progressed alot since my first version months ago, starting with Monastery Siege as Diffusion Slivers 5-8 to a list that at times can completely lock the opponent out of the game by turn 6. "at times" is not good enough, but the Siege can be good against burn though.
I used to have a list with the same ideas you provided, back in 2007. It was only UG though and ended the game with either Screeching Sliver, Virulent Sliver or Psionic Sliver. It had the same idea of the "Opposition Slivers" backed up with counters. But it's very control oriented.
I don't want you to think I'm disregarding the deck lists you provided some how. It's just that I had already built something like that in the past and it was too much of a control list.
I'm starting to reconsider my old Mardu Sliver deck though.
It used to work in my meta.
Maybe with No rest for the Wicked and Basal Sliver, a big spell...
Well, anyway.
Sorry for the long post and thanks the help.
The deck's focus is on Root Maze to deplete the opponent's early mana base.
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Gemhide Sliver
2 Megantic Sliver
1 Venom Sliver
1 Cautery Sliver
1 Telekinetic Sliver
1 Lead the Stampede
3 Faithless Looting
4 Early Frost
4 Reduce // Rubble
4 Sleep
4 Crumbling Vestige
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
4 Karplusan Forest
1 Forest
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Spell Pierce
2 Ghostflame Sliver
The list is a work in progress and the sideboard is a bit generic, but I'm more worried about the consistency and speed of the main deck now.
Since most decks in Tier 1 uses fetches, if not all of them, and generally a "keepable hand" with those decks consist of possibly 2 fetches, when they are goldfishing, a turn 1 Root Maze could deprive them from mana until their 3rd turn. With some spells that help complement this strategy like Early Frost (on the opponent upkeep) and probably Reduce // Rubble, it would be possible to keep the opponent completely out of the whole game while sliver beating them. Decks that don't use fetches usually play with some amount of artifacts which could be delayed with Root Maze as well.
Other card that play an important whole here is Diffusion Sliver, which with the Maze is capable of keeping his ability relevant for enough time to close the game.
Of course, Root Maze would make your lands come into play tapped, but since there is Crumbling Vestige I start thinking that maybe it could be mitigated to the point where it wouldn't matter as much as it would for the other side of the table.
In order to help casting spells, I was using previously Hidden Strings so then I could even cast a Megantic Sliver early without a Gemhide Sliver out. Worked well with Simic Growth Chamber, but it seemed to be increasing the my mulligan rate.
This list has become quite thigh, that's why I'm with Megantic Sliver. With this Sliver out and any other sliver, you got a 2 turn clock. If I manage to make it stick with the list (and cast it), it would be very space saving.
Another idea would be using a set of Virulent Sliver main deck. It wound help the early game after playing Root Maze, so then I wouldn't rely on Crumbling Vestige that much and have an alternative win condition in case I can't find Megantic.
This deck is an idea that I would like to become a possible competitive counterpart of slivers in Modern. And since it's build around a specific strategy against the meta, it could be considered a Counter Sliver
The previous version can be find here:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/maze-hooks/
This list need to be faster.
Ideas?
I liked the way this combo goes and was considering this archetype for modern and I was looking for a version of modern Eggs featuring Artificer's Intuition and Locket of Yesterdays, but I only found the Legacy version from (Greg Hatch).
Does anyone have an idea of how could a list with does two card be?
I was thinking of using Artificer's Intuition to put 2 copies of Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia and 1 copy of Locket of Yesterdays in the grave and cast a Locket for 1 mana and play the other two Lockets for free then cast the 3rd and 4th of Chalice and Cornucopia with 3 Lockets in play, tap them for 10 mana (6 colorless and 4 of any color) and maybe using Paradoxical Outcome returning some eggs with copies on grave to draw some cards and cast them again for free. That's just an idea, but I still rather play Faith's Reward which would be a different approach.
Now, talking about approach, what about a single Approach of the Second Sun as the win con? I mean, i know it can be countered, but it could be just drawn back again with Conjurer's Bauble, right?
my meta is unknown and I used to play mainly High Tide and Burn in Legacy so I'm not sure how modern is, so I think the sideboard would be a bit generic for now.
thanks!
As a possible analogy it is like the discussion on Monastery Swiftspear in a Burn Deck, in which it seems like a interesting option, but it also might lead you to change you play style by making you cast burn spells before or during combat phase in order to get more damage out of the Prowess trigger, limiting you about occasional changes in strategy that might be needed.
sorry for the off-topic analogy.
I liked the Nettle Sentinel in those low land stompy list (10 lands stompy) with Viridian Longbow and Scryb Ranger. with some pump spells like Gather Courage, Mutagenic Growth and other spells. The little elf becomes Legolas
Jokes aside, in Modern I'm not sure if the same strategy would be viable or against which decks would it perform best against though.
List:
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
4 Time Reversal
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Snap
4 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
2 Counterbalance
1 Rebuild
2 Mystic Remora
1 Envelop
1 Teferi's Response
1 Opportunity
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Kiora's Dismissal
2 Reality Spasm
1 Squelch
1 Hindering Touch
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Rewind
1 Three Wishes (Maybe)
an awkward side I know...
1 Izzet: [won 2 - lost 0]
First game casted Turnabout at EOT to tap him out he countered, but had no other counters after that so I brainfreezed him holding a USZ just in case. Second game he boarded his entire sideboard and I just noticed when I casted Brain Freeze for around 60 cards and he told me, with a smile, "I have 75 cards in my deck" and then I thought, that was pretty bad, but I thought "OK, I will just use Time Reversal so then he can draw all those extra cards he pulled in the deck with USZ this time" (my mistake, not paying attention), new seven, high tides, lands and counters, I had to pass the turn at 13 life against a total of 4 power from creatures and a new hand probably full of burn spells, I thought it would be OK because I've got Counterbalance on battlefield and the full set of Cloud of Faeries in case I need block, I even thought about attacking, but it would take 5 turns and I was tapped out at this time. He attacked for 4, I'm at 9, and he casted Breaking Point, I was expecting a Bolt, so destroy all creatures, my turn, cantrip, turnabout in hand, pass, my opponent cast a Hypersonic Dragon, I'm at 5, just needed some draw spell like Time Reversal or USZ or ... draw a Merchant Scroll, great, go off, Merchant Scroll into USZ and cast Brain Freeze for over 75 and was about to cast USZ on him, but he conceded.
2 WR: [won 2 - lost 0]
the guy was brandnew to Magic and was there to learn more and test his deck, quite nice guy.
3 Goblins: [won 2 - lost 1]
bad hands. all three games I started with only one land on my hand, didn't wanted to mulligan. I won the first one with four lands on play as far as I remember; second game got stuck with only one island and after several cantrips and no other lands found, I lost; and third game I managed to find one other Island of the top after some cantrips and had to go off with only two. my hand was like 2 Cloud of Faeries, 1 High Tide, 1 Time Reversal, 1 Dispel, 1 Echoing Truth (I think) and a second Snap from my drawstep. I played High Tide, cloud of faeries and Snap it, I considered and was expecting some sort of answer for Snap like a Lightning Bolt on the Clouds, but my opponent responded recycling a Gempalm Incinerator, "good riddance", at this time I thought I would lost this match up by another answer or fizzling, Gempalm resolved, Cloud to the grave and Snap countered. 2 mana on pool, cast the second Cloud, second Snap and Time Reversal only three mana available, new seven with another Cloud and Snap with High Tides and cantrips, only in the middle of the combo I found another Island and finally play the third Island, Brain Freeze him for 69 if I remember.
4 UR DragonStorm:
first game I attempted to tap him out at EOT with Turnabout he countered it, then I started going off, he cast Desperate Ritual splicing another Desperate Ritual, I was not sure what he wanted with that, but he would get a lot of mana soon, so I Dispel it and brainfreezed him. game two I went off when he was tapped put, but, when I was finishing I casted a Cloud of Faeries, untapped two islands and took the top card of my library (!!!) literally a mistake, I remember I was counting the mana on my pool and thought "I will check my hand" and, for some odd reason, I took the top card of my library instead. My opponent didn't realised it, he was like "it's OK for me, I'm tapped out", I couldn't continue this way, so I called the Judge and he explained me that due to the circumstances, since there was no legal action which has provided me the opportunity allowing me draw that card, I lost the Round right there. Well at least I did the right thing, the Judget was really happy to be at that tournament, he never expected to be announcing a Legacy/Modern Event and was expecting even less to see a High Tide combo around there. we were going to the third round which could at least give me the opportunity to see a DragonStorm combo running, never seen before. Third round started. I tried to tap him out, he Remanded my Turnabout, so I waited another turn to tap him out and get another island, he countered (again) my Turnabout, I started the combo, casted a Time Reversal and when I tapped all my Islands for mana and casted Turnabout, with only 3 mana on my mana pool, my opponent cast a Remand on my Turnabout, I casted a Dispel on his Remand, he responded with Mana Leak, I remembered I had only one counter in my hand and it just got countered, I was almost saying "ok" and thinking how would I manage to combo again, when I spread the last four cards of my hand I saw, Island, Island, Island and Dispel. Dispel?! "Dispel in response", then I Turnabout and untapped my Islands, I remembered the judge started laughing and walking around, I think it was because of the counterwar, it was funny. So, counterwar won, Islands untapped, continued the combo and with 80+ mana available, I was foiled believing I had USZ on my hand, I was sure I had it there, then I remember I had cast it before on me, that's why I had so many Islands in hand and forgot about the counter in the end, so with no cantrip, tutor or cycling, I had to just finish with Brain Freeze instead ¬¬.
With this, I got 1st place, 7 boosters + 1 booster that was given to every one, and a promo Ratchet Bomb. from the booster I got 2 fetchlands (flooded strand and bloodstained mire) was very nice.
I didn't used the sideboard in any game, I wasn't confident if it would be effective in this environment.
The night before and during the morning before I went to the tournment, I had a strange feeling about having a single Opportunity main deck, so I switched it for the third Preordain to set more lands before the combo turn. I think I was right
Most part of the people there I think were not familiar with the Legacy, but it was really a lot of fun to bring my High Tide brew.
I know it's a bit of a open question but, about early cantripping, but what would I cantrip for in the first turn? shouldn't I just mulligan instead? what if you already know what you're playing against?
about the that match up:
Blake's CounterSlivers List [2014]:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
3 Sliver Hive
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Æther Vial
3 Darkheart Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Leaf's Lands List [2014]:
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
1 Crop Rotation
2 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
Lists source: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248176&f=LE
The video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz3qkkEDuIQ
the following cards are those I could see in the video
SCGMINN - Legacy - Round 5 Blake Patraw Vs Nick Leaf
CounterSlivers Vs Lands
1st Match
Blake's one lander against Rishadan Port + Wasteland + Life from the Loam = GG
2nd Match
Blake's hand:
Blake's T1: Drop Flooded Strand, at the end of the opponents turn Blake crack his own fetchland
for a basic Island and cast Brainstorm on the same turn revealing:
Blake puts Hibernation Sliver and Misty Rainforest back on top of the deck.
Blake's T2: draw the Misty Rainforest he put back with Brainstorm and crack it for a Tundra
and Cast Sinew Sliver.
Some turns later:
-Blake 20
Hand:
Field:
-Nick 11
Hand:
?
Field:
Blake's T~6: Blake drop a second Mutavault and Tap it to activate the first Mutavault and waits to give the opportunity for the opponent to do something before he attack (maybe tap his Mutavault with Rishadan Port, but he didn't) attack with
Sinew Sliver, Sinew Sliver, Predatory Sliver and Mutavault. Nick is at 11 life and cast Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm which Blake can't counter due to the lack of blue cards in hand for Force of Will.
Two turns later, blake fails to find Winged Sliver or Galerider Sliver and loses to Marit Lage.
Maybe Blake could have kept Hibernation Sliver instead of Harmonic Sliver so he could counter Crop Rotation or if Blake had not cast Brainstorm at all and pitch it for Force of Will to counter Crop Rotation probably winning the match, since all the most relevant cards in this match up was among the three cards on top of his deck or already in Blake's first seven.
Important!: This is just my opinion on the match up, and as far as I have read about and tested, cantripping on the first turns seems to tend to a mistake, of course he didn't know the top cards (no one should) hence the Brainstorm cast. What is the sideboard strategy for Slivers against Lands? But I think the question was what Blake was searching for so early with Brainstorm. I mean, I'm clealy not a expert on CounterSlivers or even Aggro-Control/Tempo decks all together, but wasn't that first seven good enough for not cast a Brainstorm at that point?
Soul Warden and Soul's Attendant nets you life every time a creature comes into play, this includes ninjutsu;
Silverblade Paladin: Hit with two different ninjas from the same unbloacked creature, hitting the first ninja with the first strike combat step and the second ninja with normal combat step.
Maybe something like:
4x Judge's Familiar
4x Mistblade Shinobi
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Quickling
4x Silverblade Paladin
4x Soul Warden
4x Soul's Attendant
4x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Adarkar Wastes
2x Cloudcrest Lake
12x Island
3x Sejiri Refuge
I saw something about it some time ago, but nothing else latter. Could it be viable?
So, what about that new card spoiled in Shadows Over Innistrad, Pore Over the Pages.
"
Pore Over the Pages {3}{U}{U}
Sorcery
Draw three cards, untap up to two lands, then discard a card.
"
It plays two major wholes for the deck, it Draw cards and Untap lands, just like the old Frantic Search, it can't be found via Merchant Scroll like the previous, but this one would not be a card disadvantage at least.
During the combo it would end up costing one mana, given you had another five mana available initially and only one High Tide cast. I think it might be too heavy to play a full set along side the Spirals, but maybe two could be fine.
Another thing that comes to my mind is that even if it's a interesting choice, where in the deck would you fit it. My first idea would be on the Cunning Wish spot or a 2/1 split with it, since whenever you cast a Wish, you probably already have more mana available for which ever card you're wishing for (except from Surgical Extraction or Ravenous Trap). Or maybe put it on Candleless versions.
What do you think?
this seems to be quite an active thread.
@Snickelfritz
Thanks for the reply and sorry for the misunderstanding, this is not my list. I like the Judge's Familiars on my list too, the "threat" on it's little tax is nice and it might comes nicely if it weld a sword.
I thought on adding Dryad Militant too back there on "Treasure Cruise Era", but I haven't tested.
@Medea
Thanks for the reply. I agree, that list might be budget, which could explain the Sword of Body and Mind over maybe Sword of Fire and Ice, at least I could see me doing so, but, even possibly being a budget list, it performed well and that's what I like about it, congrats for the pilot.
My opinion on the card selection, by the way, might be imprecise since I'm quite unexperienced with this deck's strategy, I might close my own list one day.
Anyway, Thanks again for the replies!
This list placed 1st last month. No Vials, Karakas, Port nor Wasteland.
16 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls
CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dryad Militant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Flickerwisp
2 Containment Priest
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
OTHER SPELLS
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Rest in Peace
I'm just passing by, but I wanted to post this list here since it seems quite different. Not sure if someone saw this list before, sorry if it has already been discussed.
Original link: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10634&d=260860&f=LE
(On Spoilers)
Cost 3cc which could compete with Sulfuric Vortex spot (or just be used on side against...Miracles maybe?) and doesn't cause damage when hits the board, but could generate a lot of triggers if happens you chain spells and even put over 3 points of damage on stack by casting instants, triggering her triggered ability and responding your own instants with her activated ability, before becoming a planeswalker which would lead to another 2 points of damage on her +1 ability.
It kind of remember Swiftspear, I mean, on top deck mode and on the chainning spells subject, so I'm not sure about her.
I'm really liking the idea of stacking spells, triggers and activated abilities with her.
Imagine what it would be chaining spells with her on board and taping for damage against something like Counterbalance! How deep could the stack get this way? It could be interesting at least to play such game
I thought Impulse didn't make you shuffle your deck anymore due to errata or I didn't get something?
I think you could try Ravenous Trap against Dredge to gain some more time.
Against Counterbalance, Wipe Away could be used or maybe Spell Pierce it when you got the chance. Other than that, I think it's only really bad if there is a Sensei's Divining Top on the battlefield (as usual), then you could, maybe, start the combo in response to Top's activation, which will trigger Counterbalance, then see what's on the top of the opponent's library and try to combo around that card's converted mana cost. That's what I would try at least, I'm not much familliar with Solidarity though, I've pretty much been playing, Burn, CounterSlivers and sorcery-speed High Tide.
I tried this the UG route with the Chain Stasis + Magus of the Candelabra combo, it's was quite nice, but if you don't find the Magus before the combo turn, you won't be able to use it's tap ability. I was running Autumn's Veil which was really amazing, because once you cast a single one, you won't have to worry about counters until you finish your combo ^^, it was really nice.
I would recommend Realmwright in this build if fetchlands is a issue. Research // Development haven't tested, but could be interesting (although it doesn't put a card in your hand, which is quite bad) and maybe Riftsweeper in case your opponent exile something from you with say Surgical Extraction or for your own Time Spiral's or even against a lethal suspended Rift Bolt, but that would be very narrow.
@NamhciR:
I didn't found Gitaxian Probe to be as essential as it seemed to me when I tested it at least, I used 2 main deck and I found that after I used it once, right before the combo, I didn't want to see it again since it doesn't dig as much as I needed, so I changed them for a pair of Mystic Remora which was quite nice, but ended with Counters which could be used before and during combo.
@SSquirrel:
Nice list you have there, Impulse and Dig Through Time are very nice digging. It would be nice to exile lands when using Dig Through Time in hope not to see them again after a Time Spiral, but despite the fetchlands, it's quite hard to see Islands on grave. Swan Song can be strong some games, just watch out for the token clocking you if you cast it before starting to combo.
I tried 2 Counterbalance maindeck for a while, went to a small event with the list and it's actually quite random without sensei's divining top, because usually you will set your cantrips to find combo pieces and won't be able to fix the top card to counter something. When you can use your cantrips to counterbalance, you probably already have your combo pieces and would be almost as good if it was just another counter. Nevertheless, when it works, it's really good, just nuts! You'll just sit back and watch as your opponents spell are countered and keep making land drops until you get tired enough of watching to go off. I won the event, but removed Counterbalance.
I'm running a single Retraced Image on my list and it's nice, not sure if more would work, because it only work when you have a Island or another permanent card in your hand that you already have on the field.
One thing I noticed is that most of your counters doesn't target creatures and you don't have bounces main deck. It can be hard to fight against things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Canonyst and alike. You can still Wish for a Snap or Wipe Away, but you will also need the Whishes for your win conditions and it can be hard to find anything with Spirit of the Labyrinth on the board.
I'm running a budget version too, but it's a bit more budget, so not sure if I should post around here.
I hope it help
@BoBoCTiberius, about Enchantress, maybe Aura Barbs cast in response to Solitary Confinement?
Havoc if it's a white heavy list. Anarchy and even Ratchet Bomb I think that could work too.
Hey, Gul_Dukat!
Since you're planning to bring your list to an event I would recommend some play testing against Miracles if possible in case you face one, it would be better to have a idea of how this match would be like. D&T would be another match up I would recommend some testing because Thalia, Guardian of Thraben mana denial and First Strike can be tough sometimes.
As for general Match Ups, I think Burn is a very consistent deck that tends to have at least a good match up against most part of the decks and can play around strategies that attempt to lock your game. You'll be playing the "aggro role" most of the time, but it can happen that you might take a more controlish route. A very nice game happened sometime ago between Maverick and Burn, link bellow:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-la-lgc-t8-patrick-sullivan-vs-ross-merriam-6359891
I think that was a interesting game.
Sideboarding properly can turn around bad match ups and the deck structure can make some answers from your opponent irrelevant. now about specific match up analysis, I rather leave this answer for those who are more experienced with it, because I'm quite new to Legacy too, but I think you got a great list there and I agree with @Lormador and I also think that Burn is a great deck.