MTG Salvation

Quote from Rancormaniac »

Any advice facing against Valakut deck variants? How favorable is it for Elves? I'm running a typical Abzan build. I have access to Mark of Asylum and Burrenton Forge-tender

What makes this MU so bad for us is we have to both race and play around their angers and bolts. You have to pay very close attention to how many turns away they are from winning. Knowing this, think about how many pieces you need to commit in one turn to counterplay their boardwipe while still providing a clock. It's difficult but doable.

All those hate pcs MasterBouda mentioned will work fine except Gaddock Teeg. It only hits noncreature spells (primeval can still be played) and it conflicts with chord/company.

In my experience, Forgetender/Spirit and Aven are the most effective with our company/chord suite.
In my abzan toolbox list I use sculler as a means to combat this MU and other combo MUs.

Quote from mikeduges »

My link should be below my signature. I ran them for a top 8 finish.

Good questions and very good analysis. In short, I think GB's mana base is clunky, if you are trying to run them down with Ezuri or dump your hand as fast as possible. The interesting thing I find is that GBs game plan is not primarily trying to dump enough dudes to go wide, but to chip away with Shaman damage. Thus, elfballing is more difficult with GB, but our game plan is not trying to Elfball all the time, but to switch from elfballing to beatdown. An example would be playing shaman when you only have two dudes on board. In the case with GW, you would want to go wide and drop many creatures with the mana dorks, but the thing that makes GB unique is its ability to shift focus to a Shaman chip and beatdown. This makes elfballing and consequently Ezuri over-run as one of the ways to win and not the way to win. That's where the beauty and versatility of GB comes into play.

In terms of GW winning or placing top 8 lists, I believe that is primarily in the American metagame. Ever since Shaman was spoiled, GB has been piloted to good finishes here in Japan. I think, maybe, culture plays a big roll in people's preferences in playstyle. An example would be when the Vizier combo was released into the metagame. America was all over the combo and fitting them into Elves, but here in Japan, it simply experimented and I don't find many players who fully embraced it. Of course, that could be my metagame here near Osaka.

I see your list now, thanks. I normally post from my phone and signatures are not seen through it which explains why I never saw it before.

It's a very impressive finish. I especially love the idea of 4 TKS and 3 TS against combo and control. I do have a few questions though. How do you fit TKS + TS in with 4 Shaman? In postboard do you remove chords + companies to make room or do you just forget about the curve and/or the non-elf to elf ratio?

I get what you're trying to say about GB considering I play it myself - recently went one week with 6 top 4 finishes in a row at different LGS'. Though I believe to have gotten lucky that week due to optimal matchups. To further explain, I've played through GB's slower but effective approach and I can safely say it's at a disadvantage when against fast decks.

I could see the combination of TS and TKS solving this problem but again, the curve seems problematic on paper.

Quote from M4Bear »

Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.

Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.

Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.

I believe TKS' biggest strength is that it hits a broad meta. Most importantly, it disrupts decks that are almost guaranteed to cripple our strategy.

Yes it can't be played off company and most of the time you'd probably want to chord an ezuri; however, against those decks that are built to hate us, chording a TKS is not a bad play. Information is power and removing a key card is also power.

I'm with Mikeduges on not being 100% convinced but I have seen its potential. Tbh it's been particularly consistent for me in my GW shell. I would love to see it played alongside TS if Mikeduges convinces me enough =).

Ultimately I'd say try it out and form your own opinion. Have fun!

Why play Duskwatch Recruiter over Fauna Shaman? Shaman's ability to fetch any creature in the deck is more valiable imo.

I playtested 2 Abbey online. 3 games in a row I managed to flip it on turn 3 and won because of it. It does work in situations where I have no wincon in hand or in the battlefield. With my list in particular I was able to flip Abbey and still keep some Elves on the board - particularly archdruid/druid and grizzly bears if I want to be more aggro or dorks if I have Lead/Messenger in my hand. The first 2 games were against RGw Zoo which were hyper aggressive and I would have died if it weren't for Abbey's lifelink. The first game I had enough information on him not having path because he let Druid live for a turn so I played abbey at the very moment I had the mana and creatures to flip it; he was already at 14 life so 1 turn of damage + some elves did the trick. The 2nd game is when I had no information based on me having no real threats to path on my side of the field but I was down to 4 life so I had no choice and flipped it which ended up winning me the game that I would have otherwise lost. The alternative to both of these games could have been to chump block and stall with no guarantee I'll draw into anything relevant. The third game was against affinity which I would definitely have lost without flipping Abbey. He managed to bring out an early overseer then cranial to swing in the air with ornithopter so I flipped abbey and kept recovering all the life he dealt me until I was able to amass an army of Elves to overrun. So far I'm not really missing Nykthos' application. I'll keep testing and let you guys know.

It is true that my version tends to over commit thus becoming vulnerable to certain board wipes; however, it's been relatively easy to get my creatures' toughness to 3 which, as you know, isn't in range of Tendrils or Kozilek's. In the many, many games I've also played - no job atm - I haven't been affected by a board wipe to the point where I instantly concede. The fact of the matter is I generate big bodies rather quickly - I'm looking at you Incited Rabble - and my opponents usually end up catching maybe 1 or 2 of my guys, if any. Languish, Outburst, and Chandra are the only threats I fear and if I can't hold mana open for Negate by then, I'd probably lose anyways. It surprises me that you don't feel the same way I do considering you've tested this exact version.

I've played a little over 30 games with this version in particular and it's been absolute powerhouse. I feel that everything in the mainboard just clicks. I admit that my sideboard still needs work and quite frankly - as stupid as it sounds - I often wonder if boarding out cards is even worth it. What I mean is, we shouldn't stray too much from our original gameplan of aggression and that means not diluting our deck with too many noncreatures/nonhuman spells.

As for Ojutai, Archangel, and Avacyn... a lot of these decks that run black removal also run cards that make me sacrifice a creature and if I'm at that point of the game where he's killed every creature left and right, it's just not feasible to have an expensive bomb do nothing except lower my consistency - I rather have an Anafenza in my opening hand. It may be personal preference but I really believe having a consistent and fast early game is the best strategy to win.

Cheers to Negate stranger and thanks for picking my brain!



Yeah after testing Gideon some more, he might not be as necessary as I originally thought he’d be. Having 2 Gideon’s is detrimental and I made this decision to include him before I found out how easy it became to flip Kytheon.

I also think I may have been rash in removing Ojutai's Command fom the board. It could help me more than Gideon against Rakdos Midrange and Jund which are my worst match ups because of all of their removal and Kolaghan's Command and Goblin Dark-Dwellers. If I could catch a Dark-dwellers with Ojutai's and bring back a creature, that'd be huge for me. I originally advocated running multiples of this card and will likely go back to running 2-3.

I don’t have too much to say about Stasis Snare yet because 90% of the time I’m the aggressor and usually have a creature big enough to go through their threat. Having more non-creature spells only reduces my chances of creating a big body. I see it most useful in the mirror and against UR Bounce (can’t let TITI or Jace activate).

I’ve tested Eerie Interlude before and wasn’t too impressed. Negate is a catch-all that’s useful in just about every match up we hate. Lastly it costs 1 more to cast than negate and it unflips my Incited Rabbles which is one of my strongest cards in the deck. I suggest you try him out if you haven’t already.

As for Consul’s, he’s been too slow and fragile in my experience. There were those few games where his 3rd ability finally did something but more often than not he was no better than a Savannah Lion which is exactly why I replaced him with the latter. As you said, having more one drops only strengthens Anafenza and even better, Kytheon – whom I’ve been able to consistently flip on turn 3 which usually means I’ve won.

Anafenza is easily one of the strongest cards in the deck. When she has lived past turn 2, it’s usually too much value for my opponent to handle. I cannot stress enough how important she has been for winning. If you’re wondering about synergy, it’s not like Thalia’s Lieutenant doesn’t get anything out of coming into the battlefield.

Thanks for the feedback!

Here’s my list after taking all of your suggestions and my recent games into consideration.



You might notice I took out Lantern Scout. I finally got a lot of games in with RDW and I came to the conclusion that I don't need this guy. I found myself pressuring it more than it pressured me. Again, Dwellers was a pain to deal with so I think Ojutai's is the right tech and gaining 4 life can certainly be relevant. This also means I have to say farewell to Expedition Envoy and hello to the much better Savannah Lion, Dragon Hunter.

Stratus Dancer looks very promising and since I have 3 flex spots in the sideboard I figure why not test him out. At worst he's a 2/1 body with evasion.

I hope you all enjoyed the read! Looking forward to continuing the discussion.

Hello fellow elf players! Lots of great discussion going on lately. I especially like the idea of Joraga Warcaller. So much so I decided to swap a playset of Nettles with a playset of Joragas to playtest against my roommate's RG Eldrazi deck. This is the decklist I ran with.



Out of 10 games. I won 7 of them and here's why. Unless he had the nut draw, having Joraga set for 2 or more counters got my elves out of pyroclasm range which in turn enabled me to dump my hand without fear and have a wall of threats ready to attack or block with. It's sort of the same concept with Ezuri in making my fragile dudes beefy - minus the trample - except Joraga has the benefit of being a static ability. The strength in this is not having to worry about saving mana in response to a pyroclasm effect. I also like Joraga's flexibility in being a very inexpensive one drop which was sometimes important for an explosive T2 start with Heritage. In other words, Joraga is a threat in every point of the game and gives my deck 4 more wincons alongside 4 Shamans and 2 Ezuri. This is something Nettle will never offer in a Chord deck.

So far I'm on board with the Joraga train, but I will have to test further against other decks. I need to solidify a list for GPLA but I'm torn between running GW Messenger/Lead, GB Shaman Chord, or GWB Shaman Chord. If I see Elves just aren't doing it, I might go with Thunefeeder Chord or Abzan Company but I really don't want to.

Hey guys! With the new set coming out and Eldrazi making a scene, I'm leaning towards focusing on the Feeder+Thune combo and dropping the 3-piece combo all together. Although I know this thread is for Abzan colors, the strategy is the same and I wanted your opinions on what I think will be stronger due to not relying on the graveyard to combo off. After some playtesting and a lot of brainstorming, here is my brew.



You'll notice that in the absence of black, I'm running colorless producing lands for Matter Reshaper and Sea Gate Wreckage. Both of these cards are great in giving you that extra reach. Reshaper is what drove me to colorless as his potential for a mini-CoCo is nuts when paired with CoCo itself. In testing, he's won me games through just his beats and through my opponent's unwillingness to potentially make me reveal the game-winning card.

There are two cards that are still up in the air for me. The first is Boreal Druid in place of birds of paradise for more colorless mana albeit 9 sources has been enough for me in other decks. The second is Thought-knot Seer as he is just an amazing card in my opinion though I'm not sure what I need him for yet. Thanks for reading!

Quote from doc.brown »

So do you reckon that, having to cut something to make space for golgari charm for example, you'd take out nettle sentinel rather than dwynen's elite?

Strictly speaking for GB Chord lists, Dwynen's is better in G1 because of the extra elf body counting towards convoke and towards T2 explosiveness with druid. The former is also best friends with Shaman because of the extra body. I believe having access to both in G1 adds redundancy for Lead lists whom instead of relying on Ewit or Scooze, rely on Lead to be their fallback against matchups like Jund/Junk or Control.

If deciding what to board out in G2 against the same matchups, between the two I would choose Dwynen's because its ability is irrelevant when there's no Elves on the field. Furthermore, I could get the same body with a relevant ability for one less mana from Nettle.

Quote from deathstroke99 »

Hi, I'm new to this thread. My good friend wants to sell his Elf Core for a very good price. I've been testing the deck online and it is pretty fun, and I'm considering buying the deck.

Here's the deck he's selling me.

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4x Elvish Mystic 4x Llanowar Elves 4x Nettle Sentinel 4x Heritage Druid 4x Elvish Visionary 4x Dwynen's Elite 4x Elvish Archdruid 3x Ezuri, Renegade leader 3x Sylvan Messenger 4x Collected Company 4x Lead the stampede 2x Nyktos, Shrine to Nyx

I've read and skimmed through the thread very fast and I have a couple of questions about the deck.
While playtesting this deck, I've realized that board wipes and especially burn (bolts, electrolyze, etc) hoses this deck. How do you guys recover from that? I find this deck so fragile.
Is Ezuri and Archdruid the only way to win ? I mean, after my opponent takes care of Ezuri and Archdruid by constantly answering with removals... I don't really see another way for the deck to win.

Considering that I'm on a budget for now and that I have a lot of modern staples, what change should I make to the deck so I'll be able to win a couple of FNM's with it? (Also consider the fact that I also can't afford Cavern of Souls, Pendalhaven and Horizon Canopy)

Thank you guys!
I'm still new to this deck, so feel free to criticize, give me some tips and tricks and to teach me the very basics of this deck.

Hello and welcome!

I've played a similar version to what you have although I splashed black for Shaman of the Pack giving me another angle of attack and a few sideboard cards. Both versions are powerful and Elves in general are one of the more resilient aggro decks in modern. With your version specifically, spot removal and board wipes are seldom a problem because of all the gas from Lead the Stampede, Sylvan Messenger, and Collected Company. With the combination of those 3 cards, your Jund/Junk, Grixis Control, Uwr Control, and other matchups who like to play the value/grindy game become easy; however, the fast matchups become more difficult without Chord of Calling as a reliable source to fetch your win-con or hatebear at instant speed.

One thing most if not all of our variations share in common is our strategy of Plan A (Overrun with Ezuri for lethal) and Plan B (being aggro, going wide, winning through beatdown). Knowing when to switch between the two is very important and it requires some amount of experience to realize what's better when looking at your hand, board state, and matchup. That being said, your deck excels more in Plan B than A because of the exclusion of Chord of Calling and inclusion of Lead and Messenger.

Quote from cbgirardo »

There's almost no chance multiple Spike feeders and Archangels makes a good deck in my opinion.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I posted a link earlier to a deck that a dude played 4x each at a 200 person event in Toronto and top 8'd. Gerry Thompson cited two decks that 5-0'd (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32257_Daily-Digest-The-Modern-Thune-Up.html) with 2+ copies of each (though I think the 2nd list is likely the same guy from the Toronto event). I think it'll depend on the meta. A 2-card combo is easier to assemble than 3 in the abstract, but given that Angel is a 5-drop, and that it's not hitable by Company, you're not going to have the same explosive potential. However, since Angel is legitimately a good (and powerful) card in a "fair" game, I think the deck could do a great job in a more grindy, less combo-oriented meta.

Chord should come out for the Burn match-up.

Quote from destroyermaker »

You should probably use Unified Will instead of Essence Scatter. Not that I'm advocating counterspells...

yeah i'm on the fence about the playset (who mentioned essence scatter? that's awful lol). it's probably wrong and 3x is enough, and i know your feelings on counters. however, it's basically like running removal spells, as they impact the velocity of the deck in exactly the same way.. i'm certain some number is a positive card to bring in against certain decks (like tron for example), and Negate deals with all the big sweeper effects and combo nonsense we tend to see. i do quite like unified will though. i'll have a look. just an initial gut-reaction though is i don't like conditional counters. sometimes you just gotta say "no".

Quote from NewModern »

Purklepuff,

Can you explain exactly how Summoner's Pact/Craterhoof is faster, based on your experience with both the GW and the GU builds? Might also help to see the two builds themselves - the GU build you were using before, and the GW build you tested and were disappointed with.

My initial suspicion is that the GU build was structured to optimize Pact and the GW build may not have been structured to optimize Chord. Would be very happy to be wrong though - if Pact/Hoof wins more, I'm on board. I'm just having a hard time understanding why/how it should be better, especially after my own brief attempts with it.

right.

my old GP London GU build:


the sideboard worked well, bearing in mind most of the time you only wanted to side out minimal cards. the dispels were an experiment.


the GW list was a carbon copy of one of the recent winning lists posted in this thread. you'll have to forgive me for not remembering the exact list but i'll read back through the thread and find the version. it wasn't unusual or anything.




things i noticed:

thing 1 - i want to win on the earlist possible turn, and getting to 8 mana is easier than getting to 11: once you have a few elves and 8 mana, a summoner's pact (or a craterhoof in hand) wins you the game 90% of the time. not to mention that craterhoof gives a bigger pump and adds an extra body (because of haste) where ezuri sometimes needs multiple activations to provide a lethal swing in the early turns. this is most of my argument for the UG version having a faster pre-board clock.
e.g. assuming no interaction. reasonably normal scenario:
five elves on board (let's say heritage, llanowar, mystic, visionary and a nettle sentinel). 8 mana available. turn 3.
chord in hand? nope. you could get lethal next turn perhaps with ezuri, if your opponent doesn't have any removal or you don't need to fetch spellskite. they have their fourth turn to wrath, sweep or pick your board apart, maybe even combo off.
pact in hand? ok, two options:
1) pact for ezuri - cast and overrun immediately for +3/+3. your total team damage that turn is most likely 5 (unless you have a nykthos or an archdruid)
2) pact for craterhoof - cast and apply +6/+6 to your team. even with only your craterhoof and the nettle sentinel attacking (everything else is tapped), that's 19 damage, which in most cases wins you the game (fetchlands exist). a single extra elf makes it 29 damage. hopefully you're beginning to see the difference in sheer early-turns win potential. this is what i mean when i say the GW version is slower.
once you've got a critical mass of elves, you don't want to pass the turn with chord in hand, waiting for the following turn for a big swing when you've got more free mana. you want to win right then and there before they are able to hold up removal, hold up counters, force you to block, sweep the board or whatever. the GW chord versions have to wait a whole extra turn before a lethal swing can be managed if fetching ezuri is your plan. there just isn't an optimal way to chord for ezuri and swing for lethal on the same turn unless you've got 11+ mana, and a lot of the time that's too slow.
essentially these decks are the same. the main difference is the "lethal turn". with the version running pacts it's one turn earlier, simply because it requires less mana to do.

thing 2 - pact allows you to chain into nettle sentinel/heritage druids without spending any extra mana (in fact with nettle sentinels it can net extra mana)
let's say you have all the pieces to construct a win in your hand, except no druid or sentinel to "go off". with chord, you're stuck because you need 4 mana to fetch your 1 mana elf. with pact you just get the elf, "go off" and win that turn. happens all the time.

thing 3 - the GW version doesn't really play much of a toolbox in the maindeck. it's sparse. therefore the chords are overkill and clunky. after-board they come alive and are powerful spells to lock down key decks but game 1 you feel burdened by the extra 3 mana you have to spend to fetch a creature out. chord doesn't lend itself to lightning fast starts, when compared to pact. this is one aspect i wasn't a fan of.




the one thing i was never super happy with was the sideboard. I feel like including the horizon canopies main (for EVEN MORE card drawing) and including the powerful white hate-cards from the sideboard will only make the deck better. 2x chord in the baord and 1 in the main will fill out the tutoring needs, and the deck won't be hampered in terms of speed in game 1.

anyway that's enough writing for tonight. i'm gonna go finish marking those test papers (groan).

Before discussing particular cards, I think its super important to analyze which match-ups require sideboarded help, which match-ups don't, and where the best available help doesn't make a significant difference. From there, I think the next question is: for each match-up we're going to prioritize (based on the answers to the questions above) which cards from our maindeck 60 are so poorly-suited that they must come out for Games 2 and 3. Finally, having a global understanding of our needs, we can consider the power, breadth or narrowness of certain potential sideboard technology.

1) Match-ups Where We Need Help

- Decks that are either expected to, or can conceivably out-race us: Infect, Burn, Affinity, Bogles, Grishoalbrand, Amulet Bloom.
- Decks that can forcibly grind us out: Jund, Junk, Grixis Control, Jeskai Control, UW Control.
- Decks that can typically disrupt us long enough to set-up their own relatively quick 'combo' finish: Grixis Delver, Grixis Twin, Living End, Tron, Lantern Control.

2) Match-ups Where We (Typically) Don't Need Help

Merfolk, (Big) Zoo, BW Tokens, Scapeshift, UR Twin.

3) Match-ups Where the Best Available Help Fails to Make a Significant Difference

Grishoalbrand, Amulet Bloom, Tron.

Here's my deck and sideboarding guide:


My sideboard is prioritized to give us significant help against the decks that can get under us: infect, burn, bogles, affinity. Its prioritized to give significant help against the decks that can grind us out: jund, junk, grixis control, jeskai control. Its prioritized to give almost zero help in the match-ups where we either don't need it, and or wherever help doesn't make a significant difference: Merfolk, (big) Zoo, BW tokens, Scapeshift, UR Twin, and Grishoalbrand, Amulet bloom, Tron.

@Destroyermaker, we're in agreement on a lot of stuff:

- 3 principally anti-burn spots.
- 2 spots for graveyard hate inside the 75
- 1 Kataki, War's Wage
- 1 Reclamation Sage
- 1 Chameleon Colossus

Although truth be told, in writing all of this out I'm questioning how wise it is to run 2 Rest in Peace given that it looks like I'm so rarely siding them both in. Probably time to axe one and add either a Scavenging Ooze or Loaming Shaman.

For sure!



I apologize for the formatting, but I am on my phone and cannot effectively edit. This list was by a second place finisher for a WMCQ in Tokyo. The event was over 300 and attracted some gold and (I believe) platinum level pros. It was hosted by Hareruya which is owned by Saito Tomoharu and is considered one of the hubs for the best of Japanese players (like Kenji Tsunura). I doubt their level was low in the event, but since I wasn't there, I cannot verify.

I tried running Devout in the side for a long time. It was great vs Liliana, good vs Tasigur/Angler/Rhino, but ultimately wasn't impactful enough.

I'm not convinced that all-in-Strangler is the right tactic. I think it's a good card that fits into the current WB lists (though I'll be testing to see where). Running some (2 maybe) Scullers main might be good, but otherwise the tools are already there. Drana is a possible switch out for Brimaz for me. Slightly worse vs lightning bolt, but evasive and much better at closing the game, Brimaz tends to get stalled very easily right now.

Quote from lilbthebased_God »

Very relevant discussion happening right now on reddit/r/spikes lead by Andrew Toney, who top 8'd the Santa Clara WMCQ with Abzan Company.

https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/3kg9jt/modern_my_name_is_andrew_toney_and_i_top_8d_the/

Thanks for posting this - it was a very interesting read. As o_m_s said, some of his deck choices seem unusual (see discussion about Seer), however his rationale for having Scooze sb made me think about this and want to try him sb instead (Scooze doesn't stop other people's combos [except maybe Living End], doesn't do much early or help us combo).

Other thoughts:
- The article definitely shows there's different builds and different play-styles that this archetype can comfortably include (combo deck that can grind it out, or grindy deck that can combo out)
- I've been running Varolz in the main for a bit already and really like him to help the grindy matchups because he's really hard to answer for some decks and because he survives Anger post-board (currently trying 3 Seer, 1 Varolz as sac outlets)
- I agree the deck is really, really good, and very suited to Modern's current meta and I think it could become Tier 1 fairly easily if someone won a big event with it (though I'm still glad it's flying under the radar a little at tier 2 since that means less dedicated hate).

Quote from Mr_LeE »

Thanks mate for the reply. Looking forward to it. I've already secured most the cards you had in your list (Y)

So update* A card shop I go to has had a big meta shift. More than half of the meta is now Grixis Twin. So I'm considering making a few changes to the sideboard. Probably putting in Dauntless Escort to stop Engineered Explosives or Wrath of God. Idk.
But siding is usually pretty easy. I almost always take out 2 Elvish Visionaries and Scooze or Rec Sage if I doubt that they'll be useful. I went 2/2 in the new store meta. Lost to a Grixis Twin because he drew every piece of his sideboard tech where I only drew 2 of the 6. I also lost to U/W Tron. Due to Wrath of God games 2 and 3. Which is why I'm considering Dauntless Escort to stop that.