I was having a conversation with a friend who only plays Modern (like will not even go to a prerelease for fun) and has a Jund Midrange deck that he brings out to the local FNM or other local scene. I was talking about the War of the Sparks and thinking about new brews, but he was like "I know other people will do more exciting things, but if I show up to anything Modern playing Jund, I may not have made the best choice, but I haven't made a bad choice."
Setting aside his pick of Jund as the ol' reliable (insert commentary), I did realize that you could probably be a casual, once in a "blue Moon" Modern player over the last few years (2016 to today) and either be:
- Fully invested in your one deck, whatever it is.
- GBx Midrange, splashing for either Jund or Abzan.
- UWx Control, splashing for either Jeskai or Esper.
And feel pretty happy.
Thinking about how the mana base can be the more expensive aspect of Modern, that means that a base UWx or GBx mana base can get you into the Modern deck you're comfortably playing for years. And both have wanted the option to splash Red, or the opposite of the Black/White that's not in their base.
But I also know that no one is stepping up to play:
- Sultai Midrange.
- Bant Control
For color-balance reasons should WOTC bail our these archetypes or not?
Going back and forth between getting into a new Modern deck or just waiting for Modern Horizons. What are other people doing?
I would say I'm a bit of a Vorthos/Johnny and I'm liking decks that build on a Green ramp base, so I've been looking at something like the Bant or Sultai Reclamation, or a Valakut build, or maybe there's something to be done with Green Devotion with some of the War of the Sparks cards (Kiora). I also like the Bant Knightfall because Knight of the Reliquary is one of my favorite cards.
As someone who tends to prefer Green, I'm curious what people would say the best deck is for:
If there were a 1/1 mono-blue version of Gladecover Scout, would you consider a Bant build as being more viable, or does Daybreak Coronet's double white still push against a Bant build?
One possibility is that there will be a Planeswalker in every booster pack and each Planeswalker has equal probability of showing up. That fits with the observation of 36 Planeswalkers = 36 booster packs in a box.
I have a harder time imagining a big Planeswalker set that is not color balanced with the planeswalkers, with the exception that Bolas could show up as the only three color Planeswalker because it's Bolas.
That math gets a little challenging though when you also set aside Karn and Ugin as colorless, that leaves 33 Planeswalkers, not well divisible by five.
I think you can start with three mono-color planeswalkers per color:
To be slotted:
Huatli: Boros or Selesnya, artwork looks Boros.
Samut: Gruul as Planeswalker, but creature had been Naya as a commander identity, artwork looks potentially Selesnya.
Heron Hat Planeswalker: Blue-something, I'm guessing Dimir.
But there are five pairs lacking a second Planeswalkers. It's possible we'll see an unbalanced cycle, if so it's a sign WOTC favored the 36 boosters = 36 Planeswalkers over a more complicated mechanism.
I'm a big fan of panoramic lands, especially the diptychs in the Lorewyn block. I run the Plains and Forest diptych from Lorewyn in my Modern Bogles deck.
For the purposes of the thread, assume that War of the Spark contains a high number (36?) of "sparkless" Planeswalkers represented by Legendary Creatures, not typical Planeswalker cards. Furthermore, assume that this means that some of the Legendary Creatures push down into Uncommon, as was done with Dominaria. Because you can't put all of them into the Rare slot and still fill needs for other Rare cards (or can you?).
If War of the Spark is supposed to be a set with a splashy focus on the Planeswalker characters, wouldn't it make sense that we see build-around uncommons in the slot? So ten Planeswalkers represented by their uncommon Legendary Creature cards?
Which ones?
WU: We know Dovin is on Ravnica, but Teferi is going to come with the rest of the Gatewatch to save the day. We'll see both, it's just a question of who is Uncommon and who is Rare. But don't forget Narset (who could also show up as a three color card).
UB: An uncommon Tezzert artifacts matter Legendary Creature could make a lot of sense in a Bolas-centric set ... but if he plays a more relevant role could we see him at Rare, and instead a mill friendly Ashiok join to set up a Return to Theros later in the year?
BR: Tibalt? We know he's been described as Black-Red, we know he's back in the Comics. But is the Uncommon slot going to be for characters that will play a part moving forward, or will we see those planeswalkers at Rare? If not Tibalt, Angrath.
RG: Samut or Sarkhan. Both will show up in the Bolas-centric storyline. Sarkhan may still play a role as a three-color card at the Rare cycle, so why not Samut?
GW: Ajani seems too central to the storyline for just Uncommon, I'm guessing Huatli.
WB: Kaya? Our only other printed option is Sorin, but he's tied up (ish). The other idea is either Gideon or Liliana at uncommon, but that seems underwhelming for where their characters are.
UR: Saheeli or Dack. Both are plausible appearances on the plane. I could see an argument for Saheeli taking a Temur slot at Rare, but we also have Sarkhan for that.
BG: Could Garruk come back? Otherwise Vraska.
RW: Nahiri, still out for revenge against the Multiverse.
GU: Kiora, another easy one. But I wouldn't be surprised with a GU Rare Nissa.
Instead of giving planeswalkers an assortment of different abilities, however (EX: Chandra deals damage, gets minor card advantage, messes with instants and sorceries a little bit, and makes temporary tokens), you are saying that the mechanical range of a planeswalker's ability should be designed to strongly correlate to an established archetype.
In other words, Dovin Baan may be chosen to become the patron saint of Stax decks while Lilliana may be the mistress of reanimator decks (as examples).
I can certainly see some advantages to this strategy. Lovers of certain colors seem to love having specific guilds, shards, and wedges to "pledge their allegiance" toward. Giving the lovers of certain playstyles and archetypes a "patron planeswalker" could (potentially) deepen player engagement in the same way.
That's a really interesting way of phrasing it that gets across what I was thinking about with a good analogy.
I think your points on the flaws are correct. I'm not sure if I'd want to see this translated into cards or just the fiction.
One point on the challenge of making planewsaslkers that fit eternal formats without tanking standard, an idea is simply that people who are playing these eternal archetypes could be drawn to new planeswalkers who evoke the style of play, even if at a much lower power level. Currently a lot of new planewalkers seem to be directed to new players who are excited by themes like tribal.
Like a Mishra planeswalker reflecting a colorless artificer with prison elements would be a nod to more established players, not new players.
Sort of an odd topic, just throwing this here and apologies if another forum would be better.
Planeswalkers as cards are supposed to represent certain themes of Magic, certain abilities within the color pie. But I was imagining what the plot would look like if instead characters were developed as reflections of major deck archetypes.
Imagining Oldwalkers as Vintage deck archetypes. You have powerful Blue control mages traveling the multiverse, fighting Dark Ritual-powered occultists, wizards specializing in raising Zombie armies from the graveyard, and all-powerful Artificers like Mishra developing powerful prisons against their enemies. And then sections of the multiverse where tribal civilizations rally around a few forms of protection like Null Rods to eek out an existence.
Legacy and Modern are pretty diverse so I have a harder time imagining what the archetypal Planeswalker is like. But I do like imagining various Eldrazi builds reflecting the fact that they are the scariest things in the multiverse.
In contrast to the idea of a Planeswalker focused set, if the Immortal Sun is playing the role of taking away the ability to planeswalk, what about a set in which we see Legendary, non-Planeswalker version of traditional Planeswalkers, to reflect them being trapped?
Yes, it's true that we didn't see this with Ixalan, but perhaps we're going to see the Immortal Sun play a stronger role in taking away abilities in the new set?
A big Legendary set now would reach back and have synergies with Dominaria.
One argument in favor of Kiora is that she's established to show up for future return sets for either Theros or Zendikar, while her general theme of "let's find cool sea creatures" is enough to explain her showing up in almost any set in the future.
If Wizards is developing a new Green-Blue walker, someone's going to say "Hey, why can't we just have Kiora show up in the storyline?" and I'd imagine you'd need very specific needs (a very non-Merfolk/Ocean version of Green-Blue) to make that happen.
I would also argue that killing off a planeswalker is a move that closes so many doors down the line that you're not looking for the most expendable, for storyline purposes, but the one that means the most if killed off. So Gideon, for example, is one close to the top of this list because it fulfills a lot of storyline.
Jace is (hopefully) dead. Liliana, free of Bolas, begins to actively seek out the Raven Man. Ajani returns to Theros to find Elspeth. When he hears whispers of a new god entering the Pantheon, a dark god, a Father of Machines.
I'm in!
It's likely that Wizards will want to tie up the Bolas plotline and prepare for moving onward to other business, like the Chain Veil/Raven Man, Elsepth on Theros, etc. Killing off Jace would be an extreme move, but it also presents the best argument for a clean slate moving forward. Nissa has walked, Liliana has unfinished business, Gideon can pick up on plotlines elsewhere (but could also be a nominee for death), and Chandra needs to be around for the comic.
Some arguments against would be it would be better marketing to do Jace's Signature Spellbook the year of his death to put a finishing touch to his character. And he's easily the most popular planeswalker amount fans and you don't kill your golden goose.
From a storyline perspective it's a little interesting that Bolas is generally disrupting the Guilds, but without the Guildpact around who cares? It's not like the Guilds present themselves as a solid defender of Ravnica in the first place? Why bother?
The idea of a signal to bring more Planeswalkers to Ravnica to fight Bolas has parallels to the mythical Planeswalker War, which I posted about here.
I'm going to be a little disappointed if we have a Planeswalkers War on Ravnica and a lure set out to draw more Planeswalkers in, but the set features color balanced (ish) planeswalker cards for Ajani, Jace, Lilliana, and Chandra.
The Guildpact remained intact--embodied in the person of the absent Jace Beleren--and Niv-Mizzet remained nothing more than an ancient, powerful dragon. Ral did manage to activate his beacon summoning Planeswalkers from across the Multiverse to combat Bolas, but it was already too late: Bolas had arrived.
Does this not feel similar to the Mox Beacon that set off the unfinished Planeswalker War in the old comic books? Here's an old summary from the forum.
As I write these words, Ravidel has fused the five Moxes into a Mox Beacon, an artifact that sends out waves of magical energy designed to draw planeswalkers to Corondor. In particular, Ravidel seeks to draw the attention of Tevesh Szat, so that he may at last take his revenge. Indeed, the beacon has already freed Leshrac from Phyrexia. From his centuries long exile, Sandruu the minotaur comes to re-claim the woman he loves. And from planes so dark even the Serra fear to tread there, comes a figure out of Legends, the creator of Dakkon Blackblade and Sol'Kanar, the demoness Geyadrone Dihada arrives to reclaim both her long-lost lieutenant and the land she wished to consume.
Since the Planeswalker War was never finished, I'm curious if there were plans for it that could be recycled into the end of the Bolas timeline. The reintroduction of the Blackblade into the storyline may hint at this in some ways? I don't know if I'd expect to see Geyadrone Dihada again with Vraska playing such an important role so far, assuming Geyadrone is Black-Green.
Instead of bringing back characters from the Planeswalker War, since so many of them are dead, we may see current members of the Gatewatch play roles that parallel the older characters.
Remember that Guild mechanics don't always directly synergize. Jump-start and Mentor don't have direct synergy, but there are creatures in Izzet colors that can benefit from Mentor, and there are Izzet spells that can raise a creature's power, thereby allowing it to Mentor a wider range of creatures. Plus the fact that the Izzet are more spell-dependent means the Boros can help patch up their primary weakness by providing more combat-efficient creatures, and the Boros' relative lack of card draw is offset by the Izzet being good at card draw.
Yeah, there's certainly a range between the mechanics that synergized really well versus the ones where they had to put more work in. Three out of five in Guilds of Ravnica did revolve around the graveyard though, it's not implausible that Ravnica Allegiance could have three revolve around +1/+1 counters: Simic (graft), Gruul (bloodthirst), and Rakdos (unleash).
Setting aside his pick of Jund as the ol' reliable (insert commentary), I did realize that you could probably be a casual, once in a "blue Moon" Modern player over the last few years (2016 to today) and either be:
- Fully invested in your one deck, whatever it is.
- GBx Midrange, splashing for either Jund or Abzan.
- UWx Control, splashing for either Jeskai or Esper.
And feel pretty happy.
Thinking about how the mana base can be the more expensive aspect of Modern, that means that a base UWx or GBx mana base can get you into the Modern deck you're comfortably playing for years. And both have wanted the option to splash Red, or the opposite of the Black/White that's not in their base.
But I also know that no one is stepping up to play:
- Sultai Midrange.
- Bant Control
For color-balance reasons should WOTC bail our these archetypes or not?
I would say I'm a bit of a Vorthos/Johnny and I'm liking decks that build on a Green ramp base, so I've been looking at something like the Bant or Sultai Reclamation, or a Valakut build, or maybe there's something to be done with Green Devotion with some of the War of the Sparks cards (Kiora). I also like the Bant Knightfall because Knight of the Reliquary is one of my favorite cards.
As someone who tends to prefer Green, I'm curious what people would say the best deck is for:
Mono-Green that's not Tron
Selesnya
Gruul
Simic
Bant
Sultai
Temur
With War of the Spark previews almost over, it't will be interesting to see what, if anything, Bogles could get in Modern Horizons.
I think most people agree not to go with a Bant build for Bogles, some challenges being:
- You have to play all forest-fetches, no Flood Plain.
- Half your hexproof creatures are mono-Green.
But Blue does bring Curious Obsession and Stubborn Denial.
If there were a 1/1 mono-blue version of Gladecover Scout, would you consider a Bant build as being more viable, or does Daybreak Coronet's double white still push against a Bant build?
I have a harder time imagining a big Planeswalker set that is not color balanced with the planeswalkers, with the exception that Bolas could show up as the only three color Planeswalker because it's Bolas.
That math gets a little challenging though when you also set aside Karn and Ugin as colorless, that leaves 33 Planeswalkers, not well divisible by five.
I think you can start with three mono-color planeswalkers per color:
White: Gideon, Teyo, Blue Light/Spear Planeswalker
Blue: Jace, Teferi, Tamiyo
Black: Ob Nixilis, Lilliana, Davriel
Red: Chandra, Jaya, Sarkhan
Green: Nissa, Vivien, Yanggu
It then gets odd because there are some strong color identifies for most of the remaining Planeswalkers, and I don't know if it balances:
Azorius: Dovin, Narset
Dimir: Ashiok
Rakdos: Tibalt, Angranth
Gruul: Domri, Arlinn
Selesnya: Ajani
Orzhov: Sorin, Kaya
Izzet: Ral, Saheeli
Golgari: Vraska
Boros: Nahiri
Simic: Kiora
To be slotted:
Huatli: Boros or Selesnya, artwork looks Boros.
Samut: Gruul as Planeswalker, but creature had been Naya as a commander identity, artwork looks potentially Selesnya.
Heron Hat Planeswalker: Blue-something, I'm guessing Dimir.
But there are five pairs lacking a second Planeswalkers. It's possible we'll see an unbalanced cycle, if so it's a sign WOTC favored the 36 boosters = 36 Planeswalkers over a more complicated mechanism.
If War of the Spark is supposed to be a set with a splashy focus on the Planeswalker characters, wouldn't it make sense that we see build-around uncommons in the slot? So ten Planeswalkers represented by their uncommon Legendary Creature cards?
Which ones?
WU: We know Dovin is on Ravnica, but Teferi is going to come with the rest of the Gatewatch to save the day. We'll see both, it's just a question of who is Uncommon and who is Rare. But don't forget Narset (who could also show up as a three color card).
UB: An uncommon Tezzert artifacts matter Legendary Creature could make a lot of sense in a Bolas-centric set ... but if he plays a more relevant role could we see him at Rare, and instead a mill friendly Ashiok join to set up a Return to Theros later in the year?
BR: Tibalt? We know he's been described as Black-Red, we know he's back in the Comics. But is the Uncommon slot going to be for characters that will play a part moving forward, or will we see those planeswalkers at Rare? If not Tibalt, Angrath.
RG: Samut or Sarkhan. Both will show up in the Bolas-centric storyline. Sarkhan may still play a role as a three-color card at the Rare cycle, so why not Samut?
GW: Ajani seems too central to the storyline for just Uncommon, I'm guessing Huatli.
WB: Kaya? Our only other printed option is Sorin, but he's tied up (ish). The other idea is either Gideon or Liliana at uncommon, but that seems underwhelming for where their characters are.
UR: Saheeli or Dack. Both are plausible appearances on the plane. I could see an argument for Saheeli taking a Temur slot at Rare, but we also have Sarkhan for that.
BG: Could Garruk come back? Otherwise Vraska.
RW: Nahiri, still out for revenge against the Multiverse.
GU: Kiora, another easy one. But I wouldn't be surprised with a GU Rare Nissa.
That's a really interesting way of phrasing it that gets across what I was thinking about with a good analogy.
I think your points on the flaws are correct. I'm not sure if I'd want to see this translated into cards or just the fiction.
One point on the challenge of making planewsaslkers that fit eternal formats without tanking standard, an idea is simply that people who are playing these eternal archetypes could be drawn to new planeswalkers who evoke the style of play, even if at a much lower power level. Currently a lot of new planewalkers seem to be directed to new players who are excited by themes like tribal.
Like a Mishra planeswalker reflecting a colorless artificer with prison elements would be a nod to more established players, not new players.
Planeswalkers as cards are supposed to represent certain themes of Magic, certain abilities within the color pie. But I was imagining what the plot would look like if instead characters were developed as reflections of major deck archetypes.
Imagining Oldwalkers as Vintage deck archetypes. You have powerful Blue control mages traveling the multiverse, fighting Dark Ritual-powered occultists, wizards specializing in raising Zombie armies from the graveyard, and all-powerful Artificers like Mishra developing powerful prisons against their enemies. And then sections of the multiverse where tribal civilizations rally around a few forms of protection like Null Rods to eek out an existence.
Legacy and Modern are pretty diverse so I have a harder time imagining what the archetypal Planeswalker is like. But I do like imagining various Eldrazi builds reflecting the fact that they are the scariest things in the multiverse.
Last Window (F):
Jace - Gideon - Liliana
Nissa - Chandra - Vivien?
Previous Window (E):
Narset?- ??? - Cthulhu
??? - Vraska - Kaya
Previous Window (D):
??? - Ob Nixilis? - ???
??? - Sarkhan? - Saheeli?
Previous Window (C):
Kiora? - ??? - ???
??? - ??? - Ajani?
Previous Window (B):
Ral - ??? - Karn?
??? - Tibalt - ???
First Window (A):
can't make out anything
Yes, it's true that we didn't see this with Ixalan, but perhaps we're going to see the Immortal Sun play a stronger role in taking away abilities in the new set?
A big Legendary set now would reach back and have synergies with Dominaria.
If Wizards is developing a new Green-Blue walker, someone's going to say "Hey, why can't we just have Kiora show up in the storyline?" and I'd imagine you'd need very specific needs (a very non-Merfolk/Ocean version of Green-Blue) to make that happen.
I would also argue that killing off a planeswalker is a move that closes so many doors down the line that you're not looking for the most expendable, for storyline purposes, but the one that means the most if killed off. So Gideon, for example, is one close to the top of this list because it fulfills a lot of storyline.
I'm in!
It's likely that Wizards will want to tie up the Bolas plotline and prepare for moving onward to other business, like the Chain Veil/Raven Man, Elsepth on Theros, etc. Killing off Jace would be an extreme move, but it also presents the best argument for a clean slate moving forward. Nissa has walked, Liliana has unfinished business, Gideon can pick up on plotlines elsewhere (but could also be a nominee for death), and Chandra needs to be around for the comic.
Some arguments against would be it would be better marketing to do Jace's Signature Spellbook the year of his death to put a finishing touch to his character. And he's easily the most popular planeswalker amount fans and you don't kill your golden goose.
The idea of a signal to bring more Planeswalkers to Ravnica to fight Bolas has parallels to the mythical Planeswalker War, which I posted about here.
I'm going to be a little disappointed if we have a Planeswalkers War on Ravnica and a lure set out to draw more Planeswalkers in, but the set features color balanced (ish) planeswalker cards for Ajani, Jace, Lilliana, and Chandra.
Does this not feel similar to the Mox Beacon that set off the unfinished Planeswalker War in the old comic books? Here's an old summary from the forum.
Since the Planeswalker War was never finished, I'm curious if there were plans for it that could be recycled into the end of the Bolas timeline. The reintroduction of the Blackblade into the storyline may hint at this in some ways? I don't know if I'd expect to see Geyadrone Dihada again with Vraska playing such an important role so far, assuming Geyadrone is Black-Green.
Instead of bringing back characters from the Planeswalker War, since so many of them are dead, we may see current members of the Gatewatch play roles that parallel the older characters.
Yeah, there's certainly a range between the mechanics that synergized really well versus the ones where they had to put more work in. Three out of five in Guilds of Ravnica did revolve around the graveyard though, it's not implausible that Ravnica Allegiance could have three revolve around +1/+1 counters: Simic (graft), Gruul (bloodthirst), and Rakdos (unleash).