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  • posted a message on Jund
    I mean yes we could. There were builds that also included Seal of Fire and other shenanigans like Executioner's Capsule. My issue with those decks is, if you're going that wide on the color wheel, why wouldn't you play a Death's Shadow variant instead?
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from guitar90x »
    u think we can adapt a traverse build instead of looting? seems really good to me.


    Jund Death's Shadow is what put Traverse the Ulvenwald on the map in the beginning. Not much has changed with those lists, but I'm not a fan of those lists specifically (4/5-color lists).

    Found it! GP Vancouver a year ago. There were Jund Death's Shadow lists before this but this was the weekend where Traverse helped streamline the deck and put 3 pilots in top 8 to become the scourge of Modern. I remember those times fondly since they kicked big mana decks square in the chops.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
    No one wants to be defeated
    Showin' how funky strong is your fight
    It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
    Just beat it, beat it
    Just beat it, beat it
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Well, I have loved the 25-land build when I'm on a traditional list. I've never really understood why people dislike it.

    I will say that I was very surprised by how he boarded for Burn. I'm glad it worked out for him but not having 2 Collective Brutality just seems wrong, but Reid made some nice plays that I didn't consider as well.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from FlyingDelver »
    Quote from guitar90x »
    Quote from FlyingDelver »
    I can only say I really like the approach of jaberwocki. I would suggest everyone to give it a try. I think Looting is the real deal, despite the negative CA. Reveler, KCommands, PKN and LtLH can certainly grind hard.


    don't like the synergy of looting in jund but I will say that Faithless Looting shines on top deck wars when you're filtering your dead land cards. And I think that's the appeal to it. But definitely not good early or mid.

    Oh it is great early game in specific matchups. We have dead cards against most matchups, either due to the matchup itself or to specific situations. That being said you should not cast Looting asap. If you know every card in your hand is useful but Looting then simply don't cast it. I know in that case the card itself is useless, but as soon as you deployed your cards and you are topdecking nothing relevant you can fire up looting.
    What I personally like Looting in the early game, even if I have all good cards in a matchup, is that I can fire up Looting in desperate situations to find specific needed cards which would help me to claw back if I have fallen behind. There are matchups right now in the meta where you can certainly loose even with a handful of good spells (Hollow One would be a good example).


    But this is why I feel like we don't necessarily want 4 of them.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on UB(x) control
    Agreed on everything. I was really disappointed with Chromium in particular. I was expecting to close out games faster, and it just wasn't happening like I thought it would. It fills the same slot that Nezahal, Primal Tide and similar cards would fill. The new Tezzeret, however, I liked a lot as a supplement to Teferi. I didn't really feel that the deck needed to be changed unless you just wanted to focus on more of it's synergies. It fills a hole I find that I have with Teferi as far as having or maintaining a board presence with a card that isn't hit by creature removal.
    Posted in: Proven (Standard)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from Bearscape »
    I still have to test whether Alpine Moon is worth it in other matchups than Tron and Valakut. It seems decent versus a lot of decks but often I wonder if it is worth a card, like versus affinity


    What version of Jeskai are you planning on testing it in? I'd like to know how it goes since I'm a bit tied up doing some experimental stuff with Jund.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from TonySoprano »
    I'm curious, what matchups do you like Alpine Moon? Obviously good for tron but I feel weird sideboarding for tron when our matchup is already so terrible... almost feels like a lost cause.


    GW-f'ing-Value Town. Screw getting Ghost Quarter'd out of the game. I also hate Affinity (A LOT). Even without Karn, I don't think that matchup was on solid ground. It was good, but they definitely get their shots. Alpine Moon at least takes away some of their creature-lands. I guess it can also do things against Cavern of Souls, but I'm not so much interested in that. And let's not forgot, Valakut is a problem for us. Maybe the rest of the format may be fine with it, but I don't think we are. Screwing Tron is just a bonus.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jund
    Tempest's point would be that the Bob spot is just weak if Bob is still occupying it. He feels Bob is just a weak card overall. From what I understand, you could basically replace it with removal and/or discard spells and be better off iirc. This is also why I think Tempest is after more versatile cards.

    To be clear, I don't subscribe to this notion, but this is just my understanding.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from Tempest753 »
    If it’s not a taunt then you have to seriously work on your phrasing. Your previous comment is dripping with snark, and you would do better to be straight instead of lacing all your replies to me with attitude if you’re not trying to start *****.

    Anyways, to use an analogy: if you jumped off a bridge and broke your arms and legs, and then I told you to do it again, how would it be closed-minded for you to say ‘no’? Because I played with confidants and flayers for like 1-2 months after BBE was unbanned and I came to the conclusion that spending maindeck space on these cards makes your hollow one and humans matchups bad. If you put more cheap answers into your deck to beat those decks, then you lose the value game. It’s that simple, and if someone is complaining about their list and it still runs confidants and flayers, I’m going to tell them not to jump off the bridge. If anyone wants to suggest a truly new direction though, I’m more than willing to listen.

    Not trying to pick a fight or start something, but it’s a bit irksome to be accused of closed-mindedness when it’s really not true.


    And how would you view this comment objectively? I'm just curious.

    If you could read my comments without assumptions, you would realize there is no snark. When I said that we're beating a dead horse, we have been doing do for a while and I said that I'm going to do what works for me. Now that I take more than one line to say something similar, you're cool (maybe?). That makes no sense to me. I feel any conversation between us is just a waste of time because of previously stated reasons reasons. Watching you and FlyingDelver go back and forth just cements it for me.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from yriel »
    Quote from chaos021 » »

    You may want to take some of your own advice.


    Can you say which one ? (it's not an ironic question, i hope your line is not just a other taunt)

    Quote from chaos021 » »

    We don't just disagree with processes. We disagree on the why and how Jund needs to change. That's basically down to our cores. What would be the point in me making the same points for Tempest to make the same counterpoint ad nauseam? I mean you're essentially watching a similar (but not the same) thing happening between FlyingDelver and Tempest for the last how many pages? I don't see any resolution coming soon on philosophy even though they pretty much have developed a similar list.


    Ok, totally agree with you when i read the previous page, it's why i proposed to do a comparaison between these points on all the matchs and try to give a mark.


    Quote from chaos021 » »

    I mean in my testing I've learned the following:
    1. I'm having more fun with Jund the last 3 weeks than I have had prior 5 months.
    2. Tireless Tracker is good enough to be a 2-of in most 75s I come up with but it's just not strong enough for me to ever want more than that. Speed and toughness for the mana cost is a large reason why
    3. Faithless Looting is pretty good but the number you want in the deck varies according to some matches for me. Tuning the number for main deck is one of my higher priorities right now.
    4. I think we should all be playing Pia and Kiran Nalaar in some number. The versatility of this 4-drop in particular has been really good against a wide range of decks.
    5. With all the newer variants, I feel like 7 discard spells is where I want to be but I can't find the space. I specifically mean Inquisition or Thoughtseize because...
    6. Collective Brutality felt mediocre in the main deck even as a 1-of. There's so many matches where you're spending more mana than you should for something that's ineffective or mediocre. When it's good though, it's great! The problem was how often it was actually good. I believe they should stay in the sideboard.


    Thanks for your feedback but you keep the same problem as the previous pages, just conclusion with no real justification, comparaison or any analysis match by match, you just say some pretty obvious fact on each card for me (so true things but not really help imo).


    Quote from chaos021 » »

    Other things are becoming clearer as days roll on but I'll save them for when I feel more confident about them. That said Tempest's pronouncement that "Confidant is bad and Tracker is great!" just hasn't panned out for me. I could go more into why I think there's a discrepancy but after FlyingDelver and Tempest got into it, I didn't see a point. I still don't.

    I quoted that particular line largely because of his/her tendency to make statements that contradict themselves. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe you do not see it, and that's fine, but a taunt it is not. The irony just sort of hit me on other levels as well.

    I'm not saying this now to stir up anything so chill folks. I'm just explaining myself probably for the last time. I hate being repetitive.


    I don't see the contradictions indeed and you explain yourself (for me) to the first time.


    And for the joke :
    Quote from yriel »

    -do you think a more closer mardu version can be interesting ? (play tarmogoyf, some tracker, bedlam and looting)

    3 weeks and 10 pages before, i asked that aha Smile

    I understand that I'm not giving all of the analysis. There's a reason: if it's not even remotely statistically relevant or tested as such, it's just more hunches and sentiment. I think we're all full up on that. For the ones I have tested enough, there's not much analysis to be made for Tron, Jeskai and Humans or at least I don't think there's any thing new. We have more toys to kick around. Strategy is still the same.

    While I did start my build based on Jaberwocki's Spicy Jund, I've leaned more towards traditional Jund elements I guess one would say. To that end, I really haven't been a fan of Bedlam Revelers and have cut it from my continued testing. There's merit to it, but more often than not I'm looking for a haymaker to close games out rather trying to go longer and grindier in an already grindy deck.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from yriel »
    @chaos021 : so why do you stay in this discussion ? You bring nothing except taunts.
    I can understand you disagree with the process of reflexion of Tempest.
    So just try to critic it with examples, counter-examples, with the 2 points of view,.... try to be objective.
    Actually you are useless here.


    You may want to take some of your own advice.

    We don't just disagree with processes. We disagree on the why and how Jund needs to change. That's basically down to our cores. What would be the point in me making the same points for Tempest to make the same counterpoint ad nauseam? I mean you're essentially watching a similar (but not the same) thing happening between FlyingDelver and Tempest for the last how many pages? I don't see any resolution coming soon on philosophy even though they pretty much have developed a similar list. I mean in my testing I've learned the following:

    1. I'm having more fun with Jund the last 3 weeks than I have had prior 5 months.
    2. Tireless Tracker is good enough to be a 2-of in most 75s I come up with but it's just not strong enough for me to ever want more than that. Speed and toughness for the mana cost is a large reason why
    3. Faithless Looting is pretty good but the number you want in the deck varies according to some matches for me. Tuning the number for main deck is one of my higher priorities right now.
    4. I think we should all be playing Pia and Kiran Nalaar in some number. The versatility of this 4-drop in particular has been really good against a wide range of decks.
    5. With all the newer variants, I feel like 7 discard spells is where I want to be but I can't find the space. I specifically mean Inquisition or Thoughtseize because...
    6. Collective Brutality felt mediocre in the main deck even as a 1-of. There's so many matches where you're spending more mana than you should for something that's ineffective or mediocre. When it's good though, it's great! The problem was how often it was actually good. I believe they should stay in the sideboard.

    Other things are becoming clearer as days roll on but I'll save them for when I feel more confident about them. That said Tempest's pronouncement that "Confidant is bad and Tracker is great!" just hasn't panned out for me. I could go more into why I think there's a discrepancy but after FlyingDelver and Tempest got into it, I didn't see a point. I still don't.

    I quoted that particular line largely because of his/her tendency to make statements that contradict themselves. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe you do not see it, and that's fine, but a taunt it is not. The irony just sort of hit me on other levels as well.

    I'm not saying this now to stir up anything so chill folks. I'm just explaining myself probably for the last time. I hate being repetitive.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from Tempest753 »
    Quote from chaos021 »
    Quote from Tempest753 »

    -I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.


    There's so much going on in just this line.


    Then enlighten me ol' buddy ol' pal, since you're such an open minded genius, what's closed minded about saying 'bob is a bad card, tracker is a good card, and playing too many creatures and lilis leads to the wrong half problems everyone is complaining about'. Having an opinion is *not* being closed minded, totally writing off an idea before you've even tried it or given it serious thought is (hint,hint,hint).
    Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack


    I have tried it. I've told you my opinion of it. It's clearly not what you want to hear/read. Besides, what I'm referencing is the irony in your statement.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from Tempest753 »

    -I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.


    There's so much going on in just this line.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Jund
    Quote from yriel »
    @chaos021 :
    you disagree ok, and ? Try to be objective and help no matter what.
    I disagree with 80% of things said by Delver and i don't personally attack him no ?

    Anyone can test whatever i want, discuss on anything with anyone.
    You can disagree like all of us but don't be like that please.

    If you don't want discuss on Tempest's points, why do we spend time to discuss on yours ?
    So can you just stop or drop this discussion ? Or maybe try to more objective ?


    Then don't? I don't need to discuss what's good in Jund right now. That's not the problem I'm trying to fix.

    Are we all reading the same words?
    Posted in: Midrange
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