Anyone else notice that this set is kind of weird? It feels like it's top heavy on the mana curve. Last block had a lot of good one to three drops. This set feels like most of the powerful cards are 4-6 cost.
That's a very good thing. Putting the power cards in the higher mana costs should help to create a slower limited/standard format.
It probably means that not many of the cards will end up seeing play in modern/legacy. But, honestly, if Damping Sphere is the only modern addition I will be very happy because that card is a net benefit for the format
Their are too many strong ago cards/statagys. You need stronger control cards to make going second more desireable. Alternatively you need to print more cards that impact based on turn order
Example
Turn bolt
RR
Instant
Deals 3 damage to target creature or player, IF you are going second you may play turn bolt for 0.
Goblin of time
R
haste
If you are playing first goblin of time comes in to play with 2 -1/-1 counters
4/4
Land of sands
Land
T Add 1 to yoru mana pool
If you are not playing first Land of sands also has
T Sacrifice land of sands Destroy target land.
Good ideas, but we aren't seeing this happen at all. How can we convince them to implement the idea?
The idea is this:
If you played first and play Monument Valley, it comes into play tapped on turn 1.
But if you didn't have the privilege to play first, you could play it untapped on turn 1.
So essentially, if you are on the draw and the aggressor who played first plays a land each turn, you can play cards like Monument Valley essentially as old school legendary dual lands. Hence, such cards tend to be worse on the play and better on the draw.
Yeah, I figured that was what you had intended. I just don't know if the card is worded correctly so that it works in that way.
@Ashiok - personally I would love that higher powered modern format, but I don't think they could realistically do that any time soon. I would like to see things head in this direction eventually, but the rate of unbans in modern is so glacially slow.
Actually, couldCloudpost come back now that Damping Sphere is a thing? I disagree that it's "just a worse tron" though. Post decks have advantages over Tron and vice versa.
Perhaps the solution is to print cards that would tend to favor the player who didn't get to play first. I have included some samples that I have printed out to supplement casual drafts. Of course, more potent versions of such cards would be needed for faster formats like Modern.
I like the second land quite a bit. I would re-word it though to say "this enters tapped unless you control fewer lands than an opponent". The way it currently reads, I believe if both players control an equal number of lands and you played it then it would enter untapped because it does not see itself in play yet. I am not 100% sure of this
The only reason I dislike giving the draw player a scry is because it conflicts with the mulligan scry rule, and it could make things more confusing if you have multiple game rules granting you scry.
Right now I am leaning towards my 3rd suggestion:
3. The player going first does not skip his/her first draw step. Instead, that player begins the game with an opening hand of 6 rather than 7.
This is a very subtle change with quite larger consequences. Deciding on a keep with 6 cards compared to 7 is something that less experienced players may not consider that big of a deal, but it really will.
What this discussion really hinges upon is what exactly you want to accomplish when you say 'equalizing' the first and second turn player.
Do you want to:
1. Give going first and second their own individual strategic merit, so that there's a relatively even percentage of people choosing either first or second.
2. Make it so that first and second each are so evenly advantaged that people effectively don't care which one they get.
If the first one is your goal, then understand that it would probably leave us in a very similar situation to what we're in now, perhaps marginally more even.
If 50 percent of decks want to go first, and 50 percent of decks want to go second, then you'll still have quite a few games occurring where people don't get what they want because of dice rolls, giving one side the same advantage that they have now.
If Deck A likes going first, and Deck B likes going second, then matching them against each other would pretty much be a perfect situation. No matter who wins the die roll, both sides are fairly happy, assuming they choose to go whichever their deck prefers.
However, if Deck A is put into a mirror match, or perhaps goes against another different deck that likes going first, then we're in the exact same situation that we're in now.
This is also a fairly generous analogy, as I don't think it's likely that you'd be able to find a mechanic that benefits 50 percent of decks in a format to the point where they'd take it over going first.
The second option, making people not care about whether or not they go first, is impossible for the exact reason that I mentioned above. There is no advantage you could give a player that is so unanimously useful that it rivals being able to go first, unless you made it ludicrous to the point of people preferring to go second.
No matter what you gave to the second turn player, some decks would care way more about it than others, leading to the exact same situation we're in now where losing the die roll just sucks most of the time.
If whatever we change is going to lead to a different, but still existent advantage to winning the die roll, then I don't think it's worth making the change.
Option 2 is what I am after.
Due to the turn-based nature of the game, one player is going to have to be the first to play. But it should not end up being an important factor in the outcome of the game. Note that it is not an important factor in every game, but right now it is important in enough games to matter.
The second option, making people not care about whether or not they go first, is impossible for the exact reason that I mentioned above. There is no advantage you could give a player that is so unanimously useful that it rivals being able to go first, unless you made it ludicrous to the point of people preferring to go second.
I think its reasonable to imagine a change that would not sway the preference all the way to the draw.
There are a few ideas I have which I think would fit this criteria:
1. On the first turn of the game, spells cannot be cast.
this would prevent the advantage player one has by being able to cast spells uninterrupted on the first turn of the game. it would greatly slow down explosive starts
2. The player who is playing second gains x amount of life (x being some agreed upon number after rigorous playtesting)
the extra life would help against aggro decks that play first, giving the second player more time to catch up.
3. The player going first does not skip his/her first draw step. Instead, that player begins the game with an opening hand of 6 rather than 7.
this rule goes for a different approach than the first two. the draw player is rewarded by seeing an extra card before deciding on mulligans, rather than both players seeing the same number of cards.
Do you have the statistics to prove that going second is worse? People choosing going second doesn't mean going second is worse; it's only an impression until you can provide hard numbers to which player performs better.
Do not try to fix something which isn't broken.
I am not sure where a compilation of statistical data of that sort would be found, but it is not necessary to prove this point.
I seriously doubt that so many players are acting under an erroneous belief that there is an advantage to be had going first, when in reality there is none - especially pro players who have been playing and writing about this game for many years. Players looking to get an edge constantly try and figure out what they can be doing better. If there was no statistical difference on win % between play and draw, we would not see players opting to play the vast majority of the time. Aside from the corner cases I presented, this aspect of Magic has been solved.
I do not believe unbanning Preordain or Ponder would be good for the format. Unlike Jace, one mana cantrips as powerful as these will always find homes in multiple decks across the format. They are strict upgrades to cards that already see moderate play: serum visions and sleight of hand. I would prefer to see new cantrips that do not obsolete the existing ones. Opt is a good example of this. It has both advantages and disadvantages to Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions.
Splinter Twin could easily come back. I would welcome it with open arms.
The next announcement is tomorrow, but it will not involve modern. A deathrite shaman ban in legacy might happen, or perhaps even some legacy unbans like Mind Twist (what is that still doing banned??)
I think your first change does not accomplish enough. Most lands played in competitive Magic enter the battlefield untapped anyways, so this only affects a handful of cards across formats.
Your second change is better, but it would also not come up in many games. For instance, it does nothing to help monocolored decks. With good color fixing in every format, plenty of decks do not have trouble creating the correct color of mana on their first turn.
Your third change is the best. What you are proposing is that the player going second would begin with their first land directly on the battlefield during the opponent's turn instead of having to wait for their turn to play the land. What I like about this is that it addresses the inability to interact during the first turn of the game outside of "free" spells. I think you are headed in the right direction, but the same result can be done in a less convoluted manner
If play/draw was equally desirable, it wouldn't matter so much who won the roll or not. As it currently stands, it really does matter too much in modern
This is very unlikely to be true, as the best Modern players have the same performance in Modern as the best Legacy players do in Legacy. This suggests either a) the die roll does not matter in Modern as much as people claim as skilled players can overcome it, and/or b) the die roll matters as much in Modern as it does in Legacy. If this mattered more in Modern than Legacy, we would see a corresponding performance drop among top players who lose random matchups to the die roll that they would not lose in another format. I guess it's also possible that c) top Modern players are good at cheating the die roll, but that also seems very unlikely.
I only use modern as an example because that is the format I am most familiar with and because this thread was posted under the modern forums. I think it also matters too much in standard, legacy, vintage, limited, and any other duel format. Although in the case of legacy, the presence of Force of Will might change this very slightly.
I do believe skilled players can certainly overcome this disparity, although never completely because even by the best players the disparity must be recognized as being true or else they would not always choose to play first (ignoring manaless dredge, 8 rack, and some lantern games).
I agree that cheating the die roll is unlikely. If the best modern players were ever to risk being caught doing this, their Magic careers would likely be over.
I fully agree that winning the die roll is too big of an advantage in Magic. I notice this a lot in the semi-Standard Arena format, where there are tons of matchups that are heavily favored to the player on the play. See most permutations of RDW/Dinos/Merfolk/Vampires/GW Tokens. I wish Wizards would make a major change like scry 1 for player on the draw to offset this.
Yeah I think its one of the major flaws in Magic that should be looked into
If play/draw was equally desirable, it wouldn't matter so much who won the roll or not. As it currently stands, it really does matter too much in modern
This is very unlikely to be true, as the best Modern players have the same performance in Modern as the best Legacy players do in Legacy. This suggests either a) the die roll does not matter in Modern as much as people claim as skilled players can overcome it, and/or b) the die roll matters as much in Modern as it does in Legacy. If this mattered more in Modern than Legacy, we would see a corresponding performance drop among top players who lose random matchups to the die roll that they would not lose in another format. I guess it's also possible that c) top Modern players are good at cheating the die roll, but that also seems very unlikely.
I only use modern as an example because that is the format I am most familiar with and because this thread was posted under the modern forums. I think it also matters too much in standard, legacy, vintage, limited, and any other duel format. Although in the case of legacy, the presence of Force of Will might change this very slightly.
I do believe skilled players can certainly overcome this disparity, although never completely because even by the best players the disparity must be recognized as being true or else they would not always choose to play first (ignoring manaless dredge, 8 rack, and some lantern games).
I agree that cheating the die roll is unlikely. If the best modern players were ever to risk being caught doing this, their Magic careers would likely be over.
That's a very good thing. Putting the power cards in the higher mana costs should help to create a slower limited/standard format.
It probably means that not many of the cards will end up seeing play in modern/legacy. But, honestly, if Damping Sphere is the only modern addition I will be very happy because that card is a net benefit for the format
Let's wait a bit and see if Tron's numbers take a dive before deciding to inject another big mana deck into the format.
And of course it should absolutely not be considered before Stoneforge, Green Sun's Zenith, et al are unbanned first.
Good ideas, but we aren't seeing this happen at all. How can we convince them to implement the idea?
Yeah, I figured that was what you had intended. I just don't know if the card is worded correctly so that it works in that way.
Otherwise, it's a very simple and elegant design.
Actually, could Cloudpost come back now that Damping Sphere is a thing? I disagree that it's "just a worse tron" though. Post decks have advantages over Tron and vice versa.
I like the second land quite a bit. I would re-word it though to say "this enters tapped unless you control fewer lands than an opponent". The way it currently reads, I believe if both players control an equal number of lands and you played it then it would enter untapped because it does not see itself in play yet. I am not 100% sure of this
Right now I am leaning towards my 3rd suggestion:
This is a very subtle change with quite larger consequences. Deciding on a keep with 6 cards compared to 7 is something that less experienced players may not consider that big of a deal, but it really will.
Option 2 is what I am after.
Due to the turn-based nature of the game, one player is going to have to be the first to play. But it should not end up being an important factor in the outcome of the game. Note that it is not an important factor in every game, but right now it is important in enough games to matter.
I think its reasonable to imagine a change that would not sway the preference all the way to the draw.
There are a few ideas I have which I think would fit this criteria:
1. On the first turn of the game, spells cannot be cast.
this would prevent the advantage player one has by being able to cast spells uninterrupted on the first turn of the game. it would greatly slow down explosive starts
2. The player who is playing second gains x amount of life (x being some agreed upon number after rigorous playtesting)
the extra life would help against aggro decks that play first, giving the second player more time to catch up.
3. The player going first does not skip his/her first draw step. Instead, that player begins the game with an opening hand of 6 rather than 7.
this rule goes for a different approach than the first two. the draw player is rewarded by seeing an extra card before deciding on mulligans, rather than both players seeing the same number of cards.
I am not sure where a compilation of statistical data of that sort would be found, but it is not necessary to prove this point.
I seriously doubt that so many players are acting under an erroneous belief that there is an advantage to be had going first, when in reality there is none - especially pro players who have been playing and writing about this game for many years. Players looking to get an edge constantly try and figure out what they can be doing better. If there was no statistical difference on win % between play and draw, we would not see players opting to play the vast majority of the time. Aside from the corner cases I presented, this aspect of Magic has been solved.
theres a reason why fetchlands are the most played lands in the format
Splinter Twin could easily come back. I would welcome it with open arms.
The next announcement is tomorrow, but it will not involve modern. A deathrite shaman ban in legacy might happen, or perhaps even some legacy unbans like Mind Twist (what is that still doing banned??)
It's time to bring back Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith
Would Bogles and/or Amulet Titan play GSZ?
Your second change is better, but it would also not come up in many games. For instance, it does nothing to help monocolored decks. With good color fixing in every format, plenty of decks do not have trouble creating the correct color of mana on their first turn.
Your third change is the best. What you are proposing is that the player going second would begin with their first land directly on the battlefield during the opponent's turn instead of having to wait for their turn to play the land. What I like about this is that it addresses the inability to interact during the first turn of the game outside of "free" spells. I think you are headed in the right direction, but the same result can be done in a less convoluted manner
Yeah I think its one of the major flaws in Magic that should be looked into
I started a thread addressing this issue here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/791950-idea-give-the-draw-player-an-additional-benefit#c2
I only use modern as an example because that is the format I am most familiar with and because this thread was posted under the modern forums. I think it also matters too much in standard, legacy, vintage, limited, and any other duel format. Although in the case of legacy, the presence of Force of Will might change this very slightly.
I do believe skilled players can certainly overcome this disparity, although never completely because even by the best players the disparity must be recognized as being true or else they would not always choose to play first (ignoring manaless dredge, 8 rack, and some lantern games).
I agree that cheating the die roll is unlikely. If the best modern players were ever to risk being caught doing this, their Magic careers would likely be over.