Im not sure why everyone here is treating reckoner vs ramgang as an either-or type deal. They are both incredible for devotion, the 3cc slot isn't insanely crowded, reckoner is perfect for this deck (absolutely incredibly better than Membrane or Knight), why not play both?
I originally looked at your list and immediately dismissed membrane as a bad, 'danger of cool things' card. More than one person here has said they like it, so I tested it yesterday, and it performed abysmally. It generally only blocks once and then dies, they replay the dude. Reckoner kills what it blocks 100% of the time. The reach is only relevant for a couple dudes in Robots and then maybe WB tokens (in which blocking one token at a time isn't going to get you very far), which are both a fairly underrepresented archtype in the first place. I know you keep saying it's a flex slot, but I'd flex it sooner than later is all.
Did pretty well in testing yesterday. Chambers is a little slow, and often would end up in stalemates because they chumped until they drew in to removal for my big dudes and then we just stalled. It also straight up won games with Norin. I'd still consider it the flex slot and will keep a close eye on it to see how it plays.
Ran in to some trouble with Scapeshift. With MD moons you can just autowin games sometimes but they play enough maindecked sweepers and they combo before you have a chance to win too often. I don't really know what we can do here other than side in moons and possibly thoughtseizes? Might have to just accept it as a bad matchup.
Awesome. Just as a note, Id argue that both elspeth and even arguably Sorin are better at breaking stalemates than Ajani, and they're unarguably more powerful when you're behind, so I think I'll stick with those. The rest of your points are good. I'll probably go to 2 Norin and test Chamber in place of moons, and maybe some paths instead of bolts.
The thing with Blood Moon is you know when you are going to play it, so you get to fetch your basics / get all set up before dropping it. Some decks (jund, UW, etc) don't have the luxury of fetching basics early because they need access to all their colors, and then moon is gg.
But I do agree that its worth testing something else out in its place.
Genesis chamber is really cool, but its a little iffy for me, because in all the instances its most powerful, I'm already winning. If I have a bouncing Norin and a sister/ajani, I'm already winning. If I have a hand full of dudes to dump, I'm in a good position. Also, every single one of our creatures is chump-blockable, and giving our opponent chumps is kinda annoying. How has your testing with Chamber been?
I also am surprised by 4 Norin. They're legendary, and basically un-removable, so if you have one, you never want to see another. They do nothing on their own, and they're fetchable with Ranger. 4 seems like self-imposed card disadvantage waiting to happen. I'd run MAYBE 2 in a list really reliant on them, but never more.
How has Ajani been for you? His effects are generally considered pretty weak. His + ability is bad for us, because we don't care about the time it buys us because we already have sisters, but it does synergize with one card in our deck (Pridemates). His pump could be incredible with Genesis Chamber, but if you're dropping a dude that costs 4 in modern, he better be game-changing, and Im not sure giving a horde of tokens an anthem effect is broken (if you have a horde of dudes, you're probably already winning).
I've been testing Path instead of Bolt and can't decide which I like better. I generally don't really care about big dudes because ours are bigger (Champion and Pridemate) save possibly wurmcoil, and Bolt is supreme at killing bobs / delvers / early scooze / everything except big dudes. It's also reach, which I've used more than once, in a deck that is otherwise lacking it completely. Then again, being able to deal with wurmcoils and huge goyfs is always good.
Hey dudes, check out the following thread, it's the place to talk about the archtype that this thread is turning to (and has an updated list of what shadowsnipe posted):
Hi, this is an interestin version that I want to try.
Here few ideas I thought:
1) Did you try Thraben Doomsayer? It can produce Human tokens and costs 1 mana less than Elspeth.
2) one Archangel of Thune to boost all creatures included sisters? Or is it a winmore?
3) Vault of the Archangel to make also sisters a threat and to boost more Ajani's Pride?
Ciao
First off, thanks for the interest. Just went 4-0 in a modern daily (beating jundx2, tron, and merfolk), should be popping up on mtgpulse soon.
1) I haven't tested him, but he's definitely a possibility, probably as a 2-of instead of the Helix. He's just really easy to remove, and I don't like playing dudes that cost more than 2 that are answerable with a single removal spell. Ranger doesnt care about removal, you got your dudes already, and walkers are walkers. That said, he's super synergistic (other than the fact that this deck never hits fateful hour without already having lost), so I'll give him a shot. Could be awesome if he gets going.
2) Too expensive, especially with Confidant. This deck doesn't like having that much mana in general. Winmore I think.
3)Colored mana is a very precious commodity when you have such a low curve and are playing blood moon. As much as I would like to play this, I just can't deal with the colorless tap.
I think you are making the mistake that I keep seeing and thinking of this deck as an aggro deck because of the fact that it is red. We do care about counters for one big reason, Fanatic of Mogis. It is not just another card, it is tremendous value even if you are not casting it for an alpha strike, and if your opponent counters it you have given up a huge tempo gain. I have had several matches where my opponent (playing blue) sits there with the same 3 cards in hand for most of the game, and when I ask them after the match they tell me they were counters.
Fanatic is Mogis is not tempo. That is not what tempo is. It's burn on a stick, and yeah its a powerful card. But so is everything else, that's the point. (Save BTE, which IS a tempo card). The deck is powerful against control because your threat density is so high. It doesn't matter to us if the opponent is holding 3 counters at the end of the game, we just need one or two beaters getting through to win, and there isn't a control deck in the format that plays as many counters as we do threats. We will win that battle.
Even if I am playing the beat-down, which is not quite as easy as the previous build I will admit, I want to drop my hasty beaters and get a swing out of them before they are bolted. Dropping something like Aether Membrane midgame against Delver and making it stick is great, as it stops beats or forces them to 2 to 1 for removal. Playing BTE, for example, is only a good play when you are casting something else as well, and if that is countered you now have just played a vanilla 2/2.
This paragraph is saying two opposite things at once. You're saying you want all your creatures to hit before they die, and then you say you play a wall because it gives you time against delver? Those are opposite deck directions. I like the membrane, but its a control card, and this deck is not control. BTE is an aggro card. If they counter whatever you play with BTE, they were going to counter it if you played it without BTE, except now you have a 2/2 on the field that you wouldn't have otherwise.
I realize your list is around maximizing Fanatic, and making sure he hits and sticks. I just feel like you're worried about the wrong things. You dont NEED vial to get your dudes in play (as I explained above) - you have more threats then they have counters, and if you draw a threat (that gives devotion) instead of vial, it's almost always going to be more valuable in this. And then there's just some janky suboptimal creatures like the Knight and the membrane. I realize they add to the flavor, I'm not saying you should stop playing what you're playing, I'm not sure that every choice I made is the right one. I'm just a little confused about some of your choices and the explanations you're giving, and trying to work them out for the good of the deck.
It doesnt give devotion and we don't have early access to white, depending on the list. I feel like we can't play grunt for the same reason Hatebears doesn't play it (and they can even reset the upkeep if they want): It's unreliable, and isn't big enough to make up for it.
Hey Worm (and everyone):
I'm looking at playing with this, and I have reckoners on MTGO. If cost/budget wasn't a concern, just going for maximum competitiveness, what do you think of the following list:
Tweaked the manabase to be more snow-heavy (because now we have reckoners+skred), got rid of Blood Knights (were fairly weak in my testing, would you agree?), reckoners and gougers hit hard, Hammer seems really good in this deck both for haste and for continued steam.
The biggest change that I'm not sure about is removing Aether Vial. I removed it for a few reasons.
A) This archtype traditionally doesn't have trouble with control. Our threat density is so high, and Legion's Initiative is so powerful vs sweepers, we don't really need the "uncounterability" part, because that's solving a problem we don't have.
B) The creature count was below what is traditionally considered the 'minimum' for vial. For older formats, the competitive scene has more or less deemed that you need a bare minimum of ~20 critters for vial to be worth it. Obviously this isn't a hard number, but we were playing a little low there. I replaced it with BTE, which is a similarly tempo-oriented dude, plays well with Hammer lategame, and helps with devotion.
Spent about half of today testing. This deck is enormously fun. Turn 3 5/5 pridemates, turn 4 8/8s, huge champions, blanking kiki combo by accident. Its seriously the most fun I've had playing magic in months. Made a few tweaks, current list:
Im not sure about Lightning Helix, that's still kind of a flex slot, but it clears paths and triggers Pridemate as a bonus. Also, the deck has a tough time against burn because of its manabase (you have to aggressively mulligan for sister-heavy hands, basically), and it helps there. Sideboard is a bit of a mess, but the thoughtseizes really help with storm, which is otherwise difficult.
Not a whole lot of specifics or requests, as I have my own list of questions I plan on answering over the next few days. Just letting everyone know that it's working and pretty powerful, if slightly inconsistent in its game-plan (a hand full of pridemates is annoying), and to encourage people to pick it up for some fun. I have ~65% winrate in mtgo 1v1s, and went 4-0, 3-1, 3-1 in 8mans so far. This is partly because of 8mans / 1v1s drawing lots of funky decks with weak manabases that bloodmoon autowins, and partly because of 10/10 beaters on turn 5. Weeeeeeee
Not going to go in to a whole lot of explanation here, just wanted to share my latest inspired brew with you all. Took inspiration from here. Added black because it seemed like the right thing to do.
Its SoulSisters revamped to be a beatdown deck. Your dudes get really big really fast. Norin the Wary is incredible and you almost always grab him with rangers but he's legendary. Xathrid Necromancer is a test, so far he's been very solid but maybe 1 CMC too much to be viable? Needs more testing. [card]Blood Moon[card] wins games alone and Im nearly never sad to see it; when I am, it makes sideboarding exceptionally easy, which is an oft-overlooked plus.
So yeah. Human-themed, come into play, gain life make huge dudes, blood moon backup plan, insane card advantage, very little disruption. It's tons and tons of fun to play. I'm currently 4-2 with it in 2-mans on MTGO, losing to baublecombo and tron, winning against merfolk, robots, burn, and jund. Going to keep playing and tweaking. What'cha all think?
That could be a viable alternative to my second list, I guess. I'm just inherantly worried about a deck relying a 4cc drop that doesn't pack disruption. In modern, to be competitive, you need to be close to winning by then or have screwed with your opponent sufficiently to not be close to losing.
And to be clear, I am trying to make something competitive. I don't know if its at all possible, but I have a plenty large collection of fun jank, I just want to explore the potential for a new archtype.
Do you think you'd have enough left over by the time you have a purphoros on the board and an emtpy the warrens left in your hand? I feel like most of the time it'd be a 4 mana Gather the Townsfolk, and occasionally if you hold on to a card you otherwise could have used by turn 5, it will be two of em.
I just feel like you'd have to build Warrens in to a combo shell to make that work. Or a ramp shell or something. Rituals, Satyr Hedonist, etc.
I originally looked at your list and immediately dismissed membrane as a bad, 'danger of cool things' card. More than one person here has said they like it, so I tested it yesterday, and it performed abysmally. It generally only blocks once and then dies, they replay the dude. Reckoner kills what it blocks 100% of the time. The reach is only relevant for a couple dudes in Robots and then maybe WB tokens (in which blocking one token at a time isn't going to get you very far), which are both a fairly underrepresented archtype in the first place. I know you keep saying it's a flex slot, but I'd flex it sooner than later is all.
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Dark Confidant
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hero of Bladehold
2 Norin the Wary
Not dudes:
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Path to Exile
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Stony Silence
2 Thoughtseize
2 Auriok Champion
2 Rest in Peace
3 Blood Moon
Did pretty well in testing yesterday. Chambers is a little slow, and often would end up in stalemates because they chumped until they drew in to removal for my big dudes and then we just stalled. It also straight up won games with Norin. I'd still consider it the flex slot and will keep a close eye on it to see how it plays.
Ran in to some trouble with Scapeshift. With MD moons you can just autowin games sometimes but they play enough maindecked sweepers and they combo before you have a chance to win too often. I don't really know what we can do here other than side in moons and possibly thoughtseizes? Might have to just accept it as a bad matchup.
But I do agree that its worth testing something else out in its place.
Genesis chamber is really cool, but its a little iffy for me, because in all the instances its most powerful, I'm already winning. If I have a bouncing Norin and a sister/ajani, I'm already winning. If I have a hand full of dudes to dump, I'm in a good position. Also, every single one of our creatures is chump-blockable, and giving our opponent chumps is kinda annoying. How has your testing with Chamber been?
I also am surprised by 4 Norin. They're legendary, and basically un-removable, so if you have one, you never want to see another. They do nothing on their own, and they're fetchable with Ranger. 4 seems like self-imposed card disadvantage waiting to happen. I'd run MAYBE 2 in a list really reliant on them, but never more.
How has Ajani been for you? His effects are generally considered pretty weak. His + ability is bad for us, because we don't care about the time it buys us because we already have sisters, but it does synergize with one card in our deck (Pridemates). His pump could be incredible with Genesis Chamber, but if you're dropping a dude that costs 4 in modern, he better be game-changing, and Im not sure giving a horde of tokens an anthem effect is broken (if you have a horde of dudes, you're probably already winning).
I've been testing Path instead of Bolt and can't decide which I like better. I generally don't really care about big dudes because ours are bigger (Champion and Pridemate) save possibly wurmcoil, and Bolt is supreme at killing bobs / delvers / early scooze / everything except big dudes. It's also reach, which I've used more than once, in a deck that is otherwise lacking it completely. Then again, being able to deal with wurmcoils and huge goyfs is always good.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=549586
First off, thanks for the interest. Just went 4-0 in a modern daily (beating jundx2, tron, and merfolk), should be popping up on mtgpulse soon.
1) I haven't tested him, but he's definitely a possibility, probably as a 2-of instead of the Helix. He's just really easy to remove, and I don't like playing dudes that cost more than 2 that are answerable with a single removal spell. Ranger doesnt care about removal, you got your dudes already, and walkers are walkers. That said, he's super synergistic (other than the fact that this deck never hits fateful hour without already having lost), so I'll give him a shot. Could be awesome if he gets going.
2) Too expensive, especially with Confidant. This deck doesn't like having that much mana in general. Winmore I think.
3)Colored mana is a very precious commodity when you have such a low curve and are playing blood moon. As much as I would like to play this, I just can't deal with the colorless tap.
Example:
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Signal Pest
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Gobllin Grenade
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Galvanic Blast
MANA: 16
4 Darksteel Citadel
12 Mountain
Fanatic is Mogis is not tempo. That is not what tempo is. It's burn on a stick, and yeah its a powerful card. But so is everything else, that's the point. (Save BTE, which IS a tempo card). The deck is powerful against control because your threat density is so high. It doesn't matter to us if the opponent is holding 3 counters at the end of the game, we just need one or two beaters getting through to win, and there isn't a control deck in the format that plays as many counters as we do threats. We will win that battle.
This paragraph is saying two opposite things at once. You're saying you want all your creatures to hit before they die, and then you say you play a wall because it gives you time against delver? Those are opposite deck directions. I like the membrane, but its a control card, and this deck is not control. BTE is an aggro card. If they counter whatever you play with BTE, they were going to counter it if you played it without BTE, except now you have a 2/2 on the field that you wouldn't have otherwise.
I realize your list is around maximizing Fanatic, and making sure he hits and sticks. I just feel like you're worried about the wrong things. You dont NEED vial to get your dudes in play (as I explained above) - you have more threats then they have counters, and if you draw a threat (that gives devotion) instead of vial, it's almost always going to be more valuable in this. And then there's just some janky suboptimal creatures like the Knight and the membrane. I realize they add to the flavor, I'm not saying you should stop playing what you're playing, I'm not sure that every choice I made is the right one. I'm just a little confused about some of your choices and the explanations you're giving, and trying to work them out for the good of the deck.
I'm looking at playing with this, and I have reckoners on MTGO. If cost/budget wasn't a concern, just going for maximum competitiveness, what do you think of the following list:
Non-Permanent Spells 7
4 Skred
3 Magma Jet
Critters 22
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Ashenmoor Gouger
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Legion's Initiative
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Blood Moon
Land 23
14 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Blood Moon
1 Aether Membrane
3 Stony Silence
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Shattering Spree
Tweaked the manabase to be more snow-heavy (because now we have reckoners+skred), got rid of Blood Knights (were fairly weak in my testing, would you agree?), reckoners and gougers hit hard, Hammer seems really good in this deck both for haste and for continued steam.
The biggest change that I'm not sure about is removing Aether Vial. I removed it for a few reasons.
A) This archtype traditionally doesn't have trouble with control. Our threat density is so high, and Legion's Initiative is so powerful vs sweepers, we don't really need the "uncounterability" part, because that's solving a problem we don't have.
B) The creature count was below what is traditionally considered the 'minimum' for vial. For older formats, the competitive scene has more or less deemed that you need a bare minimum of ~20 critters for vial to be worth it. Obviously this isn't a hard number, but we were playing a little low there. I replaced it with BTE, which is a similarly tempo-oriented dude, plays well with Hammer lategame, and helps with devotion.
What do you think?
Spent about half of today testing. This deck is enormously fun. Turn 3 5/5 pridemates, turn 4 8/8s, huge champions, blanking kiki combo by accident. Its seriously the most fun I've had playing magic in months. Made a few tweaks, current list:
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Dark Confidant
2 Lightning Helix
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Norin the Wary
Not dudes:
3 Blood Moon
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Path to Exile
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Stony Silence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Auriok Champion
2 Rest in Peace
Im not sure about Lightning Helix, that's still kind of a flex slot, but it clears paths and triggers Pridemate as a bonus. Also, the deck has a tough time against burn because of its manabase (you have to aggressively mulligan for sister-heavy hands, basically), and it helps there. Sideboard is a bit of a mess, but the thoughtseizes really help with storm, which is otherwise difficult.
Not a whole lot of specifics or requests, as I have my own list of questions I plan on answering over the next few days. Just letting everyone know that it's working and pretty powerful, if slightly inconsistent in its game-plan (a hand full of pridemates is annoying), and to encourage people to pick it up for some fun. I have ~65% winrate in mtgo 1v1s, and went 4-0, 3-1, 3-1 in 8mans so far. This is partly because of 8mans / 1v1s drawing lots of funky decks with weak manabases that bloodmoon autowins, and partly because of 10/10 beaters on turn 5. Weeeeeeee
Not going to go in to a whole lot of explanation here, just wanted to share my latest inspired brew with you all. Took inspiration from here. Added black because it seemed like the right thing to do.
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Dark Confidant
2 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Norin the Wary
Not dudes:
3 Blood Moon
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Path to Exile
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Stony Silence
2 Auriok Champion
2 Pillar of Flame
Its SoulSisters revamped to be a beatdown deck. Your dudes get really big really fast. Norin the Wary is incredible and you almost always grab him with rangers but he's legendary. Xathrid Necromancer is a test, so far he's been very solid but maybe 1 CMC too much to be viable? Needs more testing. [card]Blood Moon[card] wins games alone and Im nearly never sad to see it; when I am, it makes sideboarding exceptionally easy, which is an oft-overlooked plus.
So yeah. Human-themed, come into play, gain life make huge dudes, blood moon backup plan, insane card advantage, very little disruption. It's tons and tons of fun to play. I'm currently 4-2 with it in 2-mans on MTGO, losing to baublecombo and tron, winning against merfolk, robots, burn, and jund. Going to keep playing and tweaking. What'cha all think?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=542472
Its not exactly the same, but it is a similar "Abuse 1CC beaters" theme that could maybe help guide your deck.
And to be clear, I am trying to make something competitive. I don't know if its at all possible, but I have a plenty large collection of fun jank, I just want to explore the potential for a new archtype.
I just feel like you'd have to build Warrens in to a combo shell to make that work. Or a ramp shell or something. Rituals, Satyr Hedonist, etc.