I keep thinking about a Jeskai version. The maindeck would be identical, except different lands obviously. The sideboard would trade battle at the bridge, unmoored ego, and dead of winter for what? Wear//Tear, surgical, and path (or On Thin Ice)? It seems to me that white really only offers permanent enchantment removal, and since Stony/Rip are the ones that we care most abuot (Leyline sucks, but the decks that play it can be beaten by just sacking random stuff to foundry), and the only decks that play Stony/Rip are UW control for the most part, and they can just counter the removal, then I don't see the benefit of Jeskai over Grixis. Especially since Echoing Truth can buy you 1-1.5 turns of thopter production, and truth potentially hoses leyline as good as wear//tear does.
If I were to go jeskai, I think I would actually do a fairly heavy creature sideboard. Deputy of Detention, Meddling Mage, Unsettled Mariner, and maybe even somthing like Kor Firewalker for burn. I would just really miss ego against combo and tron, and battle against burn. I guess there's lightning helix, but battle is just so easy to cast for a large payoff.
What are other people's opinions on Grixis Vs. Jeskai (considering the 4 engineer, 4 urza lists)?
@Reedy26 - I would not play Chalice in a deck that doesn't have 4 SSG these days. Just a little too slow, in my opinion.
And how reliably are people getting their snow lands out? Is astrolabe really that good that its worth adjusting our manabase so much? Just feels like an unnecessary declbuilding restriction when a combination of other rocks would do the same.
Plus i dont want to stop playing with my john avon lands lol
Yeah, astrolabe is really that good. Not hard to hit a snow land, and between Urza and whir, it's often a cantripping, mana fixing, mana rock. Plus Dead of Winter, like Xantrith said.
I haven't tried Karn with Urza yet, but I will. I'm actually waiting on London mulligan to do that, though, because Dice Factory is much better with London than without, and I want to test both 4-drops together mostly in a dice factory shell. I can see the value of running him as a 1-of over, say, grid.
In order to play this on MTGO, you absolutely have to get comfortable with the hotkeys, and also to recognize what is actually necessary to win the game. Rarely do you actually need Urza to dig for the "win con," and if you do, it's against combo or tron and those games shouldn't be drawn out for games 2/3, so it's ok to take 10 minutes of quick clicking to win. Otherwise, just pass the turn and do only enough to win.
Yay, I finally got a 5-0 with Grizis Urza Thopter Sword! And the deciding match was a tense one against the dreaded Hogaak Vine! Needling Altar saved my butt game 3. Echoing Truth was very good against them, bouncing a leyline so I could infinite, and bouncing a huge carrion feeder. Game one I won by infiniting with exactly 1 life left.
A few notes:
-If you're playing online, and you assemble infinite with Urza, make sure to remember that you can grow your Urza token for lethal, which can save a lot of time against something like storm or tron. (Rather than drawing your deck to grab whatever).
-Tooled around with Aether Grid, moving a Sai to the board, for 1 Grid 1 Sai main, and another Grid and Sai SB. Grid can tick down on annoying walkers like Teferi, and having one main deck means having your "finisher" for Urza be a utility pinger otherwise. Not sure about the grid maindeck yet, but I'll probably keep it in for now.
Sure! It's a grixis list at the moment, because I didn't want to splash W quite yet for fear the mana might be too clunky. SB is pretty unsetteled in the new meta. Not really sure what we're supposed to do against Hogaak Vine, (but I like needles on carrion feeder/altar). I might try ravenous trap. Spine has been really nice out of the board with urza.
im a bit surprised no one is including narset in their lists. She combos with tefferis puzzle box pretty nice and digs.
Just gotta go back enough pages. We're pretty cutting edge here, mister! (Cool b4 it was cool, ya know)
So I played a few leagues after finally buying urzas and engineers. Just want to let folks know that prismatic vista hasn't been necessary at all, and I've been not having any issues casting Astrolabe. Seeing lots of UW control, which is OK I guess for us. Urza and engineer help by increasing the axis on which we can attack. The new bridge vine is surprisingly hard to hate out, because carrion feeder kind of ignores your yard interraction, unless you happen to play leyline.
Urza and Engineer are super sweet, and both a lot of fun to play. Really happy with my list so far.
I've been testing my snow urza engineer list on xmage, so a few early observations:
-Urza is quite good even without the combo, and can pull you out of (not dire straits) but a dwindling board state. His token gets bigger more quickly than you might imagine, and if you untap with him his 5 ability is nice.
-I really like Dead of Night.
-Astrolabe is sweet. But it can be annoying to remember it can only be cast with snow, meaning you can't cast one with urza mana unless you already have an astrolabe.
-Engineer has been decent. I feel like I need more practice with him, meaning, I think his ceiling is high but you can make sub-optimal plays with him quite often. Anyone who played legacy and learned how hard it is to play brainstorm correctly can relate. Not only is he a tutor, but he can also be a value engine (just swapping astrolabes every turn happened a few times), and he can also be removal protection. So unlike, say whir, which you might want to hold off on playing so that you can make a better, instant-speed evaluation of what to tutor for, engineer comes with a pressure to play early and start a sort of engine going. But then you lose out on knowing what really to tutor for. So like I said, he's hard to play correctly.
-Prismatic Vista and all the basics. They can sometimes be clunky, especially when you open with both a whir and a goblin. Astrolabe really glues everything together, and so far in testing, color screw hasn't been too difficult (though not as butter smooth as what I'm used to). But like I said, the 3 mana board wipe that only requires 1 black may make it all worth it. I'll probably ditch the scrying sheets, though.
Nurmansk, you only have 7 lands that can reliably hit R on turn 1. I just don't think looting is worth a spot, especially when sword is the only card you want to bin, and goblin does the job so much better. Why not just run visions as your turn 1 play.
Smidondrej, I posted a list that maxed on snow lands, because I really like astrolabe, so I'm with you on that. I'm not sure thoughtcast is where we want to be. We would rather dig for a single card early than try to draw 2 after developing our board. I think serum visions is just better for us.
Yeah, it was neat to see all the cantripping/card draw with eggs and thoughtcast going on. Urza being a win on the spot card helps that, but if he'd been up against something more disruptive or with better pressure, like burn, big mana, or combo, I think there's just too much durdle. But I think there's a middle ground, with some eggs and some hate rocks.
You're right, Systrill, it was sweet to see him get there like that with the thopter beatdown plan.
I wonder if the new engineered plague guy will show up in sideboards to screw up thopter sword... E Plague was one of my favorite SB cards in legacy, because it was like a removal spell with a lock stapled on.
Let's see what things it hits in modern:
-Thopters, or any other tokens, like Young pyronancer, lingering souls, empty the warrens
-Bloodghast
-humans, elves, etc
-vizier of remedies
-whatever infect creature we're looking at
-zombies (if carrion feeder makes bridgevine a thing)
Anything else?
I'd say that's enough to expect it, heck maybe we should run one.
Cool, that was fun to watch. Todd made the classic mistake of whirring for sieve with 3 open mana instead of playing a foundry and saccing an egg to make a thopter and draw a card. That's more mana efficient, puts more artifacts on the board to sac to a whirred-for sieve the next turn, and leaves open the possibility of naturally drawing the sieve and saving even more mana. I wish they'd paired up the thopter/sword deck with a less fair deck than zombies, but overall, a fun match.
I really don't see why we would want force of negation.
We can't use it very well on our turn to protect our stuff, and a lot of the hate we face is instant speed artifact destruction/graveyard hate. It can't stop leyline of the void, so we likely still need alternate wincon and/or enchantment removal anyway.
I think if we want a counterspell we should consider stoic rebuttal. Or in a more combo focused deck possibly pact of negation
But personally I don't think I'm really interested in have force even in the sideboard
I can see where you're coming from, but in looking at Force of Negation, the trap I think a lot of people fall into when evaluating the card is in thinking it can only be cast for its alternate cost. Using it normally just costs 3, which is just 1 more than negate, a card I just played effectively out of the board in a few leagues. I think the extra 1 cmc is worth the added benefit of stopping stuff like early combo, turn 2 stony, or even just protecting a whir that you absolutely need to slam down against control. And while you're right that artifact destruction is instant speed, a lot of the time players don't want you to untap with a foundry and will target it ASAP. So force allows us to just put down a turn 2 foundry and not worry.
Nurmansk, don't worry about Urza turning on creature removal. He comes with a free body and makes you mana, and draws you cards, so say if he gets pathed, you're up 2+ cards on your oponent.
Mirrodin besieged is indeed nuts, but not for us, I'm afraid. It goes in a dedicated grinding station deck (btw, if you're interested in having that deck too, it's not hard to assemble, and I would pick up all those pieces asap while they're still cheap - stuff like grinding station, locket of yesterdays, semblance anvil, possibly mesmeric orb, etc).
My favorite card of all time: Vesuvan Doppleganger. When I laid eyes on it as a 13 year old, MtG became the game that I played. Beautiful art, great power at the time, fun to play, and one of the first desirable rares I ever opened out of a pack.
If I were to go jeskai, I think I would actually do a fairly heavy creature sideboard. Deputy of Detention, Meddling Mage, Unsettled Mariner, and maybe even somthing like Kor Firewalker for burn. I would just really miss ego against combo and tron, and battle against burn. I guess there's lightning helix, but battle is just so easy to cast for a large payoff.
What are other people's opinions on Grixis Vs. Jeskai (considering the 4 engineer, 4 urza lists)?
@Reedy26 - I would not play Chalice in a deck that doesn't have 4 SSG these days. Just a little too slow, in my opinion.
Yeah, astrolabe is really that good. Not hard to hit a snow land, and between Urza and whir, it's often a cantripping, mana fixing, mana rock. Plus Dead of Winter, like Xantrith said.
I haven't tried Karn with Urza yet, but I will. I'm actually waiting on London mulligan to do that, though, because Dice Factory is much better with London than without, and I want to test both 4-drops together mostly in a dice factory shell. I can see the value of running him as a 1-of over, say, grid.
In order to play this on MTGO, you absolutely have to get comfortable with the hotkeys, and also to recognize what is actually necessary to win the game. Rarely do you actually need Urza to dig for the "win con," and if you do, it's against combo or tron and those games shouldn't be drawn out for games 2/3, so it's ok to take 10 minutes of quick clicking to win. Otherwise, just pass the turn and do only enough to win.
I looked for it but couldn't find it. Do you have a link?
Edit: never mind, found it, a dice factory build from a few weeks ago.
A few notes:
-If you're playing online, and you assemble infinite with Urza, make sure to remember that you can grow your Urza token for lethal, which can save a lot of time against something like storm or tron. (Rather than drawing your deck to grab whatever).
-Tooled around with Aether Grid, moving a Sai to the board, for 1 Grid 1 Sai main, and another Grid and Sai SB. Grid can tick down on annoying walkers like Teferi, and having one main deck means having your "finisher" for Urza be a utility pinger otherwise. Not sure about the grid maindeck yet, but I'll probably keep it in for now.
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Time Sieve
1 Damping Sphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Creatures:
4 Goblin Engineer
2 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Coverd Swamp
Instants:
4 Whir of Invention
2 Echoing Truth
3 Unmoored Ego
2 Dead of Winter
3 Battle at the Bridge
2 Ghirapur Aether Gri
1 Torpor Orb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spine of Ish Sah
Just gotta go back enough pages. We're pretty cutting edge here, mister! (Cool b4 it was cool, ya know)
So I played a few leagues after finally buying urzas and engineers. Just want to let folks know that prismatic vista hasn't been necessary at all, and I've been not having any issues casting Astrolabe. Seeing lots of UW control, which is OK I guess for us. Urza and engineer help by increasing the axis on which we can attack. The new bridge vine is surprisingly hard to hate out, because carrion feeder kind of ignores your yard interraction, unless you happen to play leyline.
Urza and Engineer are super sweet, and both a lot of fun to play. Really happy with my list so far.
-Urza is quite good even without the combo, and can pull you out of (not dire straits) but a dwindling board state. His token gets bigger more quickly than you might imagine, and if you untap with him his 5 ability is nice.
-I really like Dead of Night.
-Astrolabe is sweet. But it can be annoying to remember it can only be cast with snow, meaning you can't cast one with urza mana unless you already have an astrolabe.
-Engineer has been decent. I feel like I need more practice with him, meaning, I think his ceiling is high but you can make sub-optimal plays with him quite often. Anyone who played legacy and learned how hard it is to play brainstorm correctly can relate. Not only is he a tutor, but he can also be a value engine (just swapping astrolabes every turn happened a few times), and he can also be removal protection. So unlike, say whir, which you might want to hold off on playing so that you can make a better, instant-speed evaluation of what to tutor for, engineer comes with a pressure to play early and start a sort of engine going. But then you lose out on knowing what really to tutor for. So like I said, he's hard to play correctly.
-Prismatic Vista and all the basics. They can sometimes be clunky, especially when you open with both a whir and a goblin. Astrolabe really glues everything together, and so far in testing, color screw hasn't been too difficult (though not as butter smooth as what I'm used to). But like I said, the 3 mana board wipe that only requires 1 black may make it all worth it. I'll probably ditch the scrying sheets, though.
Smidondrej, I posted a list that maxed on snow lands, because I really like astrolabe, so I'm with you on that. I'm not sure thoughtcast is where we want to be. We would rather dig for a single card early than try to draw 2 after developing our board. I think serum visions is just better for us.
You're right, Systrill, it was sweet to see him get there like that with the thopter beatdown plan.
I wonder if the new engineered plague guy will show up in sideboards to screw up thopter sword... E Plague was one of my favorite SB cards in legacy, because it was like a removal spell with a lock stapled on.
Let's see what things it hits in modern:
-Thopters, or any other tokens, like Young pyronancer, lingering souls, empty the warrens
-Bloodghast
-humans, elves, etc
-vizier of remedies
-whatever infect creature we're looking at
-zombies (if carrion feeder makes bridgevine a thing)
Anything else?
I'd say that's enough to expect it, heck maybe we should run one.
I can see where you're coming from, but in looking at Force of Negation, the trap I think a lot of people fall into when evaluating the card is in thinking it can only be cast for its alternate cost. Using it normally just costs 3, which is just 1 more than negate, a card I just played effectively out of the board in a few leagues. I think the extra 1 cmc is worth the added benefit of stopping stuff like early combo, turn 2 stony, or even just protecting a whir that you absolutely need to slam down against control. And while you're right that artifact destruction is instant speed, a lot of the time players don't want you to untap with a foundry and will target it ASAP. So force allows us to just put down a turn 2 foundry and not worry.
Mirrodin besieged is indeed nuts, but not for us, I'm afraid. It goes in a dedicated grinding station deck (btw, if you're interested in having that deck too, it's not hard to assemble, and I would pick up all those pieces asap while they're still cheap - stuff like grinding station, locket of yesterdays, semblance anvil, possibly mesmeric orb, etc).
4 Mox Opal
1 Welding Jar
4 Locket of Yesterdays
4 Chromatic Star
4 Shriekhorn
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Life From the Loam
4 Glimmervoid
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Spire of Industry
1 Academy Ruins
3 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Field of Ruin