I was having some fun with the Wayback Machine, looking at my cube on CubeTutor (RIP) from 2018. One of the things I noticed is that all my black and green 4-cmc creatures have changed since then. Currently the oldest cards in either of those sections are from ELD in 2019 (Rankle and Questing Beast).
Looking at black specifically, it's nice to see we've come a long way from just playing every Ravenous Chupacabra variant that we can. Black especially has a lot of variety in options now, with most things being pretty unique instead of everything just being a spin on Ravenous Chupacabra / Flametongue Kavu / Hellrider / etc.
Does anyone else think Braids and Smokestack are just a bit durdly nowadays?
Circling back to this comment 5 years later, 2019 was probably around the time I cut Braids / Smokestack from my cube. They were feeling their age even before the power creep went to 11 in 2019 with WAR / MH1 / ELD. I probably held on to them longer than I should have because I was a die hard rogue Legacy Stax player for the better half of a decade. The speed of games do not work out in Braids / Smokestack's favor. Their matchup spread has gotten much worse as decks have to play more to the board now. Threats getting much more efficient means it's much harder for Braids / Smokestack to shut an opponent out. Smokestack can be a huge liability since it has no immediate board presence and most 3-4 cmc creatures can just kill you in record time. Comparing Braids to every other contemporary black 4-cmc creatures...
- Initiative enablers like Ravenloft Adventurer / Passageway Seer are better win conditions and can cheese your opponent much easier / more consistently than Braids can.
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is more than 2x the size of Braids, has deathtouch, and has much more combo potential.
While you can can still cheese an opponent with an early Braids / Smokestack, I feel like this is more of the exception in scenarios where you have an extremely good hand against an opponent having a poor hand. Even then, any initiative enabler will probably be just as good if not better in those exact same scenarios. At this point Braids is pretty much completely outclassed / obsolete in comparison to any initiative enabler, not to mention Sheoldred / Rankle. The only reason I'd consider justifying Smokestack today would be for critical mass for Mishra's Workshop, but even that's a stretch for me given today's options.
Phantom Interference would be a coin toss for me, but Pact of Negation is something I would only consider if I was really desperate something like Storm / Worldgorger Dragon / etc to have a counterspell to protect their combo.
I'd much rather play Delay over any 3-cmc like Three Steps Ahead. IMO Delay compares well with a lot of tier 2 counterspells:
- Negate
- Spell Pierce
- Phantom Interference
- Dress Down (not technically a counterspell, but plays in the same space)
The beauty of Negate is that it's not matchup dependent like Negate and it preserves its value all throughout the game unlike Mana Leak variants. The game is drastically different from the last time this thread was active back in 2015, so it's definitely worth at least re-evaluating.
The problem is the creature has haste - which essentially makes this a suspend 2.
Granting haste is definitely this card's Achilles' heel, but the 2-3 turns you buy can make a huge difference, especially since this counter preserves its value throughout the game.
But then again, we have two good counterspells printed recently, I could barely find room for 1. I'm surprised this is brought up now.
- Finding room is never an issue for me, it's just a matter of having a clearly defined hierarchy / totem pole. Something is always going to be expendable / replaceable.
- You can make a strong argument for Delay over the two new spree cards or something like Negate / Spell Pierce / etc. I think the game has gotten to a point where Delay is more favorable than ever since timing / tempo are more important than ever. Games are decided more by speed / tempo than they are grinding out the most card advantage. Timing is especially crucial vs monarch / initiative, breaking up a combo like Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle, or protecting your Worldgorger Dragon. This also completely blanks scaleable spells like Pest Infestation / Occult Epiphany / Forth Eorlingas (although your opponent can still become the monarch with Forth)
I think Delay is worth revisiting in 2024. Cards like Soul Partition have been doing well for me because tempo is more important than ever now. There are a lot of reasons why I think Delay has appreciated over time.
- Delay wasn't very favorable back in the day since games were much grindier, but games are generally faster now.
- Delay is especially good vs pitch spells, which there are much more of now.
- Protecting your threats from removal is more key now since they hit harder and faster than ever (especially with initiative).
- Things like monarch / initiative can be very timing dependent. Delaying them means your opponent might be forced into a position later where it would be unfavorable for them to cast their monarch / initiative enabler.
- Teferi, Time Raveler shuts down casting spells via suspsend. The newly printed Aven Interrupter also provides a small speed bump. It's also pretty funny to just hit your opponent's suspend card with Remand / Reprieve.
As I said before, this card will be cube dependent. I have no doubt in my mind that this card will see a lot of play in my cube, but that's because my cube probably takes advantage of this card more than most others for several reasons:
- I heavily support reanimator / Recurring Nightmare.
To be fair, mono black doesn't have that many great self discard effects. After entomb, looting effects are the best to set up reanimation and that is best done by blue and red.
After Entomb, the best outlet is Unmarked Grave by far. Could make an argument for this being #3, but it sacrifices speed guaranteed accuracy.
Buried alive was not a good card many many years ago when I tested it in anything but living death.
Going back to this, yes Buried Alive has never been great, but it has appreciated a lot in value over time. A lot of the best super fatties have been printed in the past couple of years (Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / Etali / Astral Dragon / etc), we've gotten a new reanimation spell in Persist, and Shallow Grave has appreciated so much in value due to said new super fatties and better discard outlets over time.
The raw consistency of entomb effects (A+B vs A+B+C) outweigh the advantages of looting, but not to a degree where you can dismiss the relative mana efficiency and speed of the spells.
The efficiency doesn't matter when the outcome is the same as what a discard outlet would normally result in: your premium super fattie on turn 4 that makes up for any tempo losses in the previous turns.
This card bears a strong resemblance to Smuggler's Surprise. paying 3 mana for a sorcery speed entomb is just rough, even for decks that can leverage it.
This curves out your super fatties than something like Sneak Attack and will be more consistent than a discard outlet. What matters is that you get your creature on turn 4.
- I'm seeing more 3c decks, especially ones playing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker struggling with hitting the correct mana.
Aether Vial probably won't solve any of these problems. This might stem from any combination of your cube not having mana fixing, players not prioritizing mana fixing enough, or cramming too many different pips in a single deck. Most Kiki combos are confined to two colors anyways, so it's not like they HAVE to be greedy in order to pull of the combo.
AEther Vial is one of those cards that is much stronger when A.) it's played in multiples and B.) it's built very specfically around. I wouldn't play it unless my cube wasn't singleton.
This will probably always ring true. AEther Vial is not meant for a singleton formats with fairly wide curves, IMO. AEther Vial is one of the most classic "just because it's good in constructed doesn't mean it'll be good in cube" cards.
Buried alive was not a good card many many years ago when I tested it in anything but living death.
The issue with Buried Alive is more justifying its slot in the cube than it is justifying it in a reanimator deck, IMO. And this has much more legs to stand on if you have a Sheoldred back up plan or something.
yes entomb is the best enabler by a lot for reanimator, but tacking on 2 mana and making it sorcery speed is a totally different card in terms of quality.
again, I’m not arguing against the card in general, only the statement about it auto making reanimator decks.
Here's my logic to this being an auto include in any reanimator deck:
- Again, a turn 4 Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / etc is much better than any other creature / planeswalker / etc that you can play on curve.
- This being a tutor ensures you get the best possible target for any given scenario you're in (unless it's already in your hand).
- Entomb effects >>> discard outlets because it simplifies the combo down to two cards. If this isn't an auto include in a reanimator deck, then what mono black discard outlet is? This advances the gameplan of a reanimator deck much better than Bitter Triumph / Liliana of the Veil / Oona's Prowler / etc.
Honestly the only scenario I can see this not making the main of a reanimator deck is if you're a Reanimator / Oath of Druids hybrid and you already have Entomb / Unmarked Grave / Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor / etc. In that scenario, sure this can probably ride the sideboard.
I don't believe a 3 mana sorcery speed entomb is a good card in reanimator, such that this card auto makes any reanimator deck.
Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / etc are better on turn 4 than any other 4-cmc creature you can play on curve. And this is much more consistent than any 1-2 cmc discard outlet since it's an actual tutor, finds your actual best target, and reduces the combo from an A + B + C combo to an A + B combo. I find it extremely difficult to justify this not making the main deck of any reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck when Entomb is literally the most important card to that strategy.
I probably wouldn't be in the market for a standalone 3-cmc Entomb since Buried Alive alredy exists, but this has much more applications than that.
Looks like a great card for grindy matchups. But as far as Black 4s with powerful ETBs go, I would prefer Ravenous Chupacabra in more circumstances for the immediate board impact. The discard punishing/synergy is a nice touch, but it isn't as exciting on a 3 toughness 4-drop.
I'd much rather have this than Chupacabra, which I've found too low impact over the past couple of years. This has a bigger body, cleaner mana cost, more immediate / potential value, doesn't rely on my opponent having a creature, more synergies it enables (discard matters / artifact critical mass / etc).
This is much better than Finale of Devastation since it's more mana efficient and is more versatile since this can go into more decks. I'm okay paying an extra mana for Palace Jailer / Sheoldred / any initiative enabler, but was never okay paying 4GG for them with Finale of Devastation. Not to mention that this has modes at 3 and 4 mana too. The Entomb effect alone will make the main deck of any reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck.
The three natural homes for this card will be the following:
The last bullet especially covers a good amount of ground, not to mention a good amount of creature based combo decks this can sneak into, like draw 7 / persist / etc. If anything, this card should be compared to Bring to Light more than Finale of Devastation. I like this spree card much more than any other spree card in my cube.
I'm surprised you rate Duelist of the Mind so high. I thought the card is good, but outside draw 7 decks it doesn't hit that hard, and regardless of deck it isn't spectacular on defense, which kinda sucks when some of its best synergies cost you life (Sylvan Library) or need you to protect them (Jace, the Mind Sculptor). Also surprised by Sandstorm Salvager being so far down the list, that was one of the headliners for me this set.
It's not hard to trigger Duelist of the Mind off normal cantrips or its crime trigger. Its value goes up substantially in a cube that heavily supports draw 7s and monarch / initiative. I think its average case scenario will be far above most 2-cmc creatures, especially given its insane ceiling. Also, you don't have to pay life for Sylvan Library to draw more cards, you pay life to keep them.
Sandstorm Salvager is pretty much where I'd put Blade Splicer today. And I'd argue that Blade Splicer is better in white than Salvager is in green due to its blink synergies.
if I want manlands in my cube they’ll be the cycle of “fast” mono-color manlands from AFR.
Yeah this is what I've been doing. I'm currently only playing 5 of the guild manlands (Tarpit / Anchorage / Colonnade / Ravine / Vinestalk).
- Tarpit / Anchorage are in for the long haul.
- Colonnade will eventually be replaced by the UW Horizon Canopy. Can live on through Cave of the Frost Dragon.
- I have a soft spot for Raging Ravine, so it might stick around for a while. If not, it'll at least live on through Den of the Bugbear.
- Same scenario for as Raging Raine for Vinestalk, but less likely to stick around. That one can live on as Lair of the Hydra.
Quote from Goodking »
Man, I like most of even the mid-tier manlands better than the Surveil lands. I have enough searchable lands and I think activating creatures from amidst my lands will win me more games than a one-off Surveil. And they are just more interesting gameplay wise, subjectively. If I were to go to another land 'cycle' I'd be focusing on a mix of these and Canopylands I think.
I generally like surveil duals more than all but the premium manlands. The manlands are definitely more interesting, but the surveil duals play much better. Like triomes, being fetchable really helps with the ETB tapped clause. not to mention that Surveil duals help enable Worldgorger Dragon combo.
Looking at black specifically, it's nice to see we've come a long way from just playing every Ravenous Chupacabra variant that we can. Black especially has a lot of variety in options now, with most things being pretty unique instead of everything just being a spin on Ravenous Chupacabra / Flametongue Kavu / Hellrider / etc.
Circling back to this comment 5 years later, 2019 was probably around the time I cut Braids / Smokestack from my cube. They were feeling their age even before the power creep went to 11 in 2019 with WAR / MH1 / ELD. I probably held on to them longer than I should have because I was a die hard rogue Legacy Stax player for the better half of a decade. The speed of games do not work out in Braids / Smokestack's favor. Their matchup spread has gotten much worse as decks have to play more to the board now. Threats getting much more efficient means it's much harder for Braids / Smokestack to shut an opponent out. Smokestack can be a huge liability since it has no immediate board presence and most 3-4 cmc creatures can just kill you in record time. Comparing Braids to every other contemporary black 4-cmc creatures...
- Initiative enablers like Ravenloft Adventurer / Passageway Seer are better win conditions and can cheese your opponent much easier / more consistently than Braids can.
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is more than 2x the size of Braids, has deathtouch, and has much more combo potential.
- Rankle, Master of Pranks has a strictly better body and more immediate impact.
- Grief has the flexibility of evoke.
While you can can still cheese an opponent with an early Braids / Smokestack, I feel like this is more of the exception in scenarios where you have an extremely good hand against an opponent having a poor hand. Even then, any initiative enabler will probably be just as good if not better in those exact same scenarios. At this point Braids is pretty much completely outclassed / obsolete in comparison to any initiative enabler, not to mention Sheoldred / Rankle. The only reason I'd consider justifying Smokestack today would be for critical mass for Mishra's Workshop, but even that's a stretch for me given today's options.
Phantom Interference would be a coin toss for me, but Pact of Negation is something I would only consider if I was really desperate something like Storm / Worldgorger Dragon / etc to have a counterspell to protect their combo.
I'd much rather play Delay over any 3-cmc like Three Steps Ahead. IMO Delay compares well with a lot of tier 2 counterspells:
- Negate
- Spell Pierce
- Phantom Interference
- Dress Down (not technically a counterspell, but plays in the same space)
The beauty of Negate is that it's not matchup dependent like Negate and it preserves its value all throughout the game unlike Mana Leak variants. The game is drastically different from the last time this thread was active back in 2015, so it's definitely worth at least re-evaluating.
Granting haste is definitely this card's Achilles' heel, but the 2-3 turns you buy can make a huge difference, especially since this counter preserves its value throughout the game.
- Finding room is never an issue for me, it's just a matter of having a clearly defined hierarchy / totem pole. Something is always going to be expendable / replaceable.
- You can make a strong argument for Delay over the two new spree cards or something like Negate / Spell Pierce / etc. I think the game has gotten to a point where Delay is more favorable than ever since timing / tempo are more important than ever. Games are decided more by speed / tempo than they are grinding out the most card advantage. Timing is especially crucial vs monarch / initiative, breaking up a combo like Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle, or protecting your Worldgorger Dragon. This also completely blanks scaleable spells like Pest Infestation / Occult Epiphany / Forth Eorlingas (although your opponent can still become the monarch with Forth)
A lot of the effects of the evoke elementals are pretty timing based / reactive.
- Buys you time to play your most valuable card before Grief can take it.
- Endurance is very reactionary and this can save your combo at any point in the game.
- Solitude is also pretty reactionary and a lot of damage can be done before it comes back online.
- Fury is less reactionary than Solitude, but same logic still applies.
- Delay wasn't very favorable back in the day since games were much grindier, but games are generally faster now.
- Delay is especially good vs pitch spells, which there are much more of now.
- Protecting your threats from removal is more key now since they hit harder and faster than ever (especially with initiative).
- Things like monarch / initiative can be very timing dependent. Delaying them means your opponent might be forced into a position later where it would be unfavorable for them to cast their monarch / initiative enabler.
- Teferi, Time Raveler shuts down casting spells via suspsend. The newly printed Aven Interrupter also provides a small speed bump. It's also pretty funny to just hit your opponent's suspend card with Remand / Reprieve.
- I heavily support reanimator / Recurring Nightmare.
- I support Worldgorger Dragon / Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward combo.
- I play a lot of 4-cmc creatures (especially in black).
- I heavily support initiative, and most initiative enablers just so happen to cost 4 mana.
- I play arguably the best non-creature spell you can recur with this (From the Catacombs).
- I play a lot of other creature combos that often combines with reanimator like Thassa's Oracle / Draw 7 + Hullbreacher and friends
After Entomb, the best outlet is Unmarked Grave by far. Could make an argument for this being #3, but it sacrifices speed guaranteed accuracy.
Going back to this, yes Buried Alive has never been great, but it has appreciated a lot in value over time. A lot of the best super fatties have been printed in the past couple of years (Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / Etali / Astral Dragon / etc), we've gotten a new reanimation spell in Persist, and Shallow Grave has appreciated so much in value due to said new super fatties and better discard outlets over time.
The efficiency doesn't matter when the outcome is the same as what a discard outlet would normally result in: your premium super fattie on turn 4 that makes up for any tempo losses in the previous turns.
Looting doesn't you a turn 4 reanimation either, or anything for the matter of fact. This at least guarantees you 50% of the combo.
This curves out your super fatties than something like Sneak Attack and will be more consistent than a discard outlet. What matters is that you get your creature on turn 4.
Aether Vial probably won't solve any of these problems. This might stem from any combination of your cube not having mana fixing, players not prioritizing mana fixing enough, or cramming too many different pips in a single deck. Most Kiki combos are confined to two colors anyways, so it's not like they HAVE to be greedy in order to pull of the combo.
This will probably always ring true. AEther Vial is not meant for a singleton formats with fairly wide curves, IMO. AEther Vial is one of the most classic "just because it's good in constructed doesn't mean it'll be good in cube" cards.
The issue with Buried Alive is more justifying its slot in the cube than it is justifying it in a reanimator deck, IMO. And this has much more legs to stand on if you have a Sheoldred back up plan or something.
Here's my logic to this being an auto include in any reanimator deck:
- Again, a turn 4 Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / etc is much better than any other creature / planeswalker / etc that you can play on curve.
- This being a tutor ensures you get the best possible target for any given scenario you're in (unless it's already in your hand).
- Entomb effects >>> discard outlets because it simplifies the combo down to two cards. If this isn't an auto include in a reanimator deck, then what mono black discard outlet is? This advances the gameplan of a reanimator deck much better than Bitter Triumph / Liliana of the Veil / Oona's Prowler / etc.
Honestly the only scenario I can see this not making the main of a reanimator deck is if you're a Reanimator / Oath of Druids hybrid and you already have Entomb / Unmarked Grave / Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor / etc. In that scenario, sure this can probably ride the sideboard.
Atraxa / Archon of Cruelty / etc are better on turn 4 than any other 4-cmc creature you can play on curve. And this is much more consistent than any 1-2 cmc discard outlet since it's an actual tutor, finds your actual best target, and reduces the combo from an A + B + C combo to an A + B combo. I find it extremely difficult to justify this not making the main deck of any reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck when Entomb is literally the most important card to that strategy.
I probably wouldn't be in the market for a standalone 3-cmc Entomb since Buried Alive alredy exists, but this has much more applications than that.
I'd much rather have this than Chupacabra, which I've found too low impact over the past couple of years. This has a bigger body, cleaner mana cost, more immediate / potential value, doesn't rely on my opponent having a creature, more synergies it enables (discard matters / artifact critical mass / etc).
This is much better than Finale of Devastation since it's more mana efficient and is more versatile since this can go into more decks. I'm okay paying an extra mana for Palace Jailer / Sheoldred / any initiative enabler, but was never okay paying 4GG for them with Finale of Devastation. Not to mention that this has modes at 3 and 4 mana too. The Entomb effect alone will make the main deck of any reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck.
The three natural homes for this card will be the following:
- Reanimator
- Recurring Nightmare
- Midrange decks with premium 4 drops
The last bullet especially covers a good amount of ground, not to mention a good amount of creature based combo decks this can sneak into, like draw 7 / persist / etc. If anything, this card should be compared to Bring to Light more than Finale of Devastation. I like this spree card much more than any other spree card in my cube.
It's not hard to trigger Duelist of the Mind off normal cantrips or its crime trigger. Its value goes up substantially in a cube that heavily supports draw 7s and monarch / initiative. I think its average case scenario will be far above most 2-cmc creatures, especially given its insane ceiling. Also, you don't have to pay life for Sylvan Library to draw more cards, you pay life to keep them.
Sandstorm Salvager is pretty much where I'd put Blade Splicer today. And I'd argue that Blade Splicer is better in white than Salvager is in green due to its blink synergies.
Yeah this is what I've been doing. I'm currently only playing 5 of the guild manlands (Tarpit / Anchorage / Colonnade / Ravine / Vinestalk).
- Tarpit / Anchorage are in for the long haul.
- Colonnade will eventually be replaced by the UW Horizon Canopy. Can live on through Cave of the Frost Dragon.
- I have a soft spot for Raging Ravine, so it might stick around for a while. If not, it'll at least live on through Den of the Bugbear.
- Same scenario for as Raging Raine for Vinestalk, but less likely to stick around. That one can live on as Lair of the Hydra.
I generally like surveil duals more than all but the premium manlands. The manlands are definitely more interesting, but the surveil duals play much better. Like triomes, being fetchable really helps with the ETB tapped clause. not to mention that Surveil duals help enable Worldgorger Dragon combo.