I'm surprised you rate Duelist of the Mind so high. I thought the card is good, but outside draw 7 decks it doesn't hit that hard, and regardless of deck it isn't spectacular on defense, which kinda sucks when some of its best synergies cost you life (Sylvan Library) or need you to protect them (Jace, the Mind Sculptor). Also surprised by Sandstorm Salvager being so far down the list, that was one of the headliners for me this set.
It's not hard to trigger Duelist of the Mind off normal cantrips or its crime trigger. Its value goes up substantially in a cube that heavily supports draw 7s and monarch / initiative. I think its average case scenario will be far above most 2-cmc creatures, especially given its insane ceiling. Also, you don't have to pay life for Sylvan Library to draw more cards, you pay life to keep them.
Sandstorm Salvager is pretty much where I'd put Blade Splicer today. And I'd argue that Blade Splicer is better in white than Salvager is in green due to its blink synergies.
if I want manlands in my cube they’ll be the cycle of “fast” mono-color manlands from AFR.
Yeah this is what I've been doing. I'm currently only playing 5 of the guild manlands (Tarpit / Anchorage / Colonnade / Ravine / Vinestalk).
- Tarpit / Anchorage are in for the long haul.
- Colonnade will eventually be replaced by the UW Horizon Canopy. Can live on through Cave of the Frost Dragon.
- I have a soft spot for Raging Ravine, so it might stick around for a while. If not, it'll at least live on through Den of the Bugbear.
- Same scenario for as Raging Raine for Vinestalk, but less likely to stick around. That one can live on as Lair of the Hydra.
Quote from Goodking »
Man, I like most of even the mid-tier manlands better than the Surveil lands. I have enough searchable lands and I think activating creatures from amidst my lands will win me more games than a one-off Surveil. And they are just more interesting gameplay wise, subjectively. If I were to go to another land 'cycle' I'd be focusing on a mix of these and Canopylands I think.
I generally like surveil duals more than all but the premium manlands. The manlands are definitely more interesting, but the surveil duals play much better. Like triomes, being fetchable really helps with the ETB tapped clause. not to mention that Surveil duals help enable Worldgorger Dragon combo.
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This is a good card in creature-based combo decks, but I think it falls short as a generic goodstuff card, monarch/initiative support or not.
This will be cube dependent. Combined with 4-cmc creatures from other colors (particularly initiative enablers / Palace Jailer), it's not going to be hard for most BX creature based midraneg dceks to comfortably play this. In my cube, black has the best top 5 starting line up of 4-cmc creatures:
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
- Passageway Seer
- Ravenloft Adventurer
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Grief
- Hostile Investigator (6th man that hasn't been added yet)
Black has the most initiative enablers, and the fact that this can recur an initiative enabler and bin From the Catacombs (which is black's best 5-cmc spell IMO as it's a Recurring Nightmare / Bribery hybrid that's recurrable and an initiative enabler), it's not too hard to set up double / triple initiative trigger set ups to close out the game. Not to mention that this will naturally slot into any Reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck with ease since a bad Entomb effect is still better than most discard outlets.
The 5mv option is good but I'm not so sure how often it'll be played.
Unlike other spree cards, I think this is going to be primarily played with both modes combined. I think it's best to think of this as a modal Custdoi Lich.
One of the more subtle spree cards, but I think this might be a sleeper in high powered cubes. At 4B this is a GSZ that fetches your best monarch / initiative enabler or set up your Sheoldred / Hullbreacher for your draw 7 combo from your graveyard / library, can be a decent value card at 3B, and isn't a bad back up to Entomb / Unmarked Grave for reanimator / Worldgorger Dragon combo. The ceiling of this card is recurring your best 4-cmc creature from your graveyard and using the Entomb effect on something that can recur itself like From the Catacombs. This is especially attractive for larger cubes that would want more redundancy to Entomb / Unmarked Grave. IMO this is a much better card for reanimator / Recurring Nightmare shells than most black discard outlets like Oona's Prowler / Pack Rat / Collective Brutality / etc, and is just a decent midrange card overall as a build your own monarch / initiative enabler.
Considering this card for the sac fodder and incidental crime/graveyard hate. Any impressions?
It's been good. Graveyard hate has gotten really important, and this still goes wide and hits hard against non graveyard decks. This is one of black's better 3-cmc creatures, IMO.
Yeah there’s exceptions, but I think it’s pretty rare you’ll get a non artifact focused deck where you get the critical density needed to make this better than say.. shock.
Any deck that can reliably run Urza's Saga / Stoneforge Mystic can probably run this card also. At the very worst, this will be a sideboard card vs aggro, but I think it'll be able to slot into more main decks than people realize.
- This fits very well in aggro, specifically RW since white has a ton of cheap critical mass of artifacts / artifact tokens. Not to mention that this is great fodder for Gut / Bombardiers.
- Balance decks with a lot of mana rocks appreciate this since it's removal early game and can cash in your mana rocks for creatures later in the game.
- This is a win condition for Worldgorger Dragon.
- There's plenty of midrange decks that generate clues / treasures / maps / etc.
I'm a bit surprised that nobody made a thread on this yet. 4 mana 3 for 1 with good stats, clean mana cost, potential for more value over time, puts artifacts on the board, and encourages a discard matters theme. While not as broken, this has just as much immediate value as Palace Jailer / Custodi Lich with none of the risks (other than your reanimator opponent binning Archon of Cruelty or something). This also doesn't have the BBB requirements of Tourach, is better with recursion and can be blinked since it doesn't have protection from white, and also benefits from you discarding a card, not just your opponent. This is especially attractive for cubes that don't support monarch / initiative since black has a lot of 4-cmc monarch / initiative enablers.
Requiring other artifacts to be sacrificed already makes this card pretty narrow. But my bigger gripe is that it typically costs about half a card to generate an artifact, so every activation is setting you back 0.5 CA. You're going to need 3 activations before this Legion Extruder really feels like a good deal, and that's just too slow for my taste.
You're never down a card unless you're sacrificing your Blightsteel Colossus that you Tinker'd for or something. It's also important to point out that this also makes your opponent's artifact removal much less effective whenever you have 2 mana up.
Quote from LucidVision »
What I don’t like about this card is it’s effectively unplayable outside of an artifact deck.
I don't think this is completely true. Urza's Saga is still effective card outside of a dedicated artifact deck since it's not too hard to randomly have a good amount of artifacts lying around (especially in a powered cube). And this card will probably just get better over time as we get more artifacts / things that produce artifact tokens.
For Rakdos and Gruul, I'm having trouble deciding whether to replace the manlands (Raging Ravine and Restless Vents) or the pathway lands to fit the Surveil lands in. Thoughts?
Cheers,
rant
Can't go wrong with either. Maybe split it down the middle and keep Raging Ravine and replace Restless Vents?
I suspect that since targeting occurs before activation costs are paid, you can't immediately bring it back after sacrificing it. Could very well be wrong though.
Among black 1-drops, Forsaken Miner is probably 2nd only to Bloodsoaked Champion in how easy it is to recur, but at half the cost. And it has an extra toughness to boot. Yeah, I'll be cubing this guy for a LONG time.
To quote Matt Tabak on Twitter, (WOTC Senior Editor / former rules manager),
Crime means actually finishing casting the spell, activating the ability, or putting the triggered ability on the stack.
We won't know 100% for certain until the comprehensive rules are updated with OTJ, but I feel confident right now that this can loop by itself with things like Goblin Bombardment / Yawgmoth.
I'm a bit surprised about the high reception on this card. The counter doesn't feel that realistic in such a fast format.
It's not a surprise to me at all considering its celing and that big 5 mana blue spells are already commonly played like Mystic Confluence / Bribery / Treachery / etc. This has a much higher ceiling that Mystic Confluence, but is less flexible and more timing dependent. Also, not every cube is blazingly fast / cutthroat full of crazy combos and monarch / initiative running all over the place. A lot of cubes don't even run Bribery / Treachery due to their unfun play patterns, so this will especially be an attractive option there.
I dont think its broken by any means, but its got a friendly mana cost and is an instant. For that reason alone I like it more than Bribery and Treachery.
The ceiling is actually quite broken. Think Fractured Identity that can steal instants / sorceries, your opponent never gets to take advantage of their actual thing being in play, and it comes with a 3/3 flyer.
It's not hard to trigger Duelist of the Mind off normal cantrips or its crime trigger. Its value goes up substantially in a cube that heavily supports draw 7s and monarch / initiative. I think its average case scenario will be far above most 2-cmc creatures, especially given its insane ceiling. Also, you don't have to pay life for Sylvan Library to draw more cards, you pay life to keep them.
Sandstorm Salvager is pretty much where I'd put Blade Splicer today. And I'd argue that Blade Splicer is better in white than Salvager is in green due to its blink synergies.
Yeah this is what I've been doing. I'm currently only playing 5 of the guild manlands (Tarpit / Anchorage / Colonnade / Ravine / Vinestalk).
- Tarpit / Anchorage are in for the long haul.
- Colonnade will eventually be replaced by the UW Horizon Canopy. Can live on through Cave of the Frost Dragon.
- I have a soft spot for Raging Ravine, so it might stick around for a while. If not, it'll at least live on through Den of the Bugbear.
- Same scenario for as Raging Raine for Vinestalk, but less likely to stick around. That one can live on as Lair of the Hydra.
I generally like surveil duals more than all but the premium manlands. The manlands are definitely more interesting, but the surveil duals play much better. Like triomes, being fetchable really helps with the ETB tapped clause. not to mention that Surveil duals help enable Worldgorger Dragon combo.
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This will be cube dependent. Combined with 4-cmc creatures from other colors (particularly initiative enablers / Palace Jailer), it's not going to be hard for most BX creature based midraneg dceks to comfortably play this. In my cube, black has the best top 5 starting line up of 4-cmc creatures:
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
- Passageway Seer
- Ravenloft Adventurer
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Grief
- Hostile Investigator (6th man that hasn't been added yet)
Black has the most initiative enablers, and the fact that this can recur an initiative enabler and bin From the Catacombs (which is black's best 5-cmc spell IMO as it's a Recurring Nightmare / Bribery hybrid that's recurrable and an initiative enabler), it's not too hard to set up double / triple initiative trigger set ups to close out the game. Not to mention that this will naturally slot into any Reanimator / Recurring Nightmare deck with ease since a bad Entomb effect is still better than most discard outlets.
Unmarked Grave is cheaper, this costs 2B for the Entomb effect.
Unlike other spree cards, I think this is going to be primarily played with both modes combined. I think it's best to think of this as a modal Custdoi Lich.
I think this is going to be solid in any monarch / initiative based midrange deck. This also helps set up other creature based combos like persist.
One of the more subtle spree cards, but I think this might be a sleeper in high powered cubes. At 4B this is a GSZ that fetches your best monarch / initiative enabler or set up your Sheoldred / Hullbreacher for your draw 7 combo from your graveyard / library, can be a decent value card at 3B, and isn't a bad back up to Entomb / Unmarked Grave for reanimator / Worldgorger Dragon combo. The ceiling of this card is recurring your best 4-cmc creature from your graveyard and using the Entomb effect on something that can recur itself like From the Catacombs. This is especially attractive for larger cubes that would want more redundancy to Entomb / Unmarked Grave. IMO this is a much better card for reanimator / Recurring Nightmare shells than most black discard outlets like Oona's Prowler / Pack Rat / Collective Brutality / etc, and is just a decent midrange card overall as a build your own monarch / initiative enabler.
It's been good. Graveyard hate has gotten really important, and this still goes wide and hits hard against non graveyard decks. This is one of black's better 3-cmc creatures, IMO.
Any deck that can reliably run Urza's Saga / Stoneforge Mystic can probably run this card also. At the very worst, this will be a sideboard card vs aggro, but I think it'll be able to slot into more main decks than people realize.
- This fits very well in aggro, specifically RW since white has a ton of cheap critical mass of artifacts / artifact tokens. Not to mention that this is great fodder for Gut / Bombardiers.
- Balance decks with a lot of mana rocks appreciate this since it's removal early game and can cash in your mana rocks for creatures later in the game.
- This is a win condition for Worldgorger Dragon.
- There's plenty of midrange decks that generate clues / treasures / maps / etc.
I'm a bit surprised that nobody made a thread on this yet. 4 mana 3 for 1 with good stats, clean mana cost, potential for more value over time, puts artifacts on the board, and encourages a discard matters theme. While not as broken, this has just as much immediate value as Palace Jailer / Custodi Lich with none of the risks (other than your reanimator opponent binning Archon of Cruelty or something). This also doesn't have the BBB requirements of Tourach, is better with recursion and can be blinked since it doesn't have protection from white, and also benefits from you discarding a card, not just your opponent. This is especially attractive for cubes that don't support monarch / initiative since black has a lot of 4-cmc monarch / initiative enablers.
You're never down a card unless you're sacrificing your Blightsteel Colossus that you Tinker'd for or something. It's also important to point out that this also makes your opponent's artifact removal much less effective whenever you have 2 mana up.
I don't think this is completely true. Urza's Saga is still effective card outside of a dedicated artifact deck since it's not too hard to randomly have a good amount of artifacts lying around (especially in a powered cube). And this card will probably just get better over time as we get more artifacts / things that produce artifact tokens.
Can't go wrong with either. Maybe split it down the middle and keep Raging Ravine and replace Restless Vents?
To quote Matt Tabak on Twitter, (WOTC Senior Editor / former rules manager),
We won't know 100% for certain until the comprehensive rules are updated with OTJ, but I feel confident right now that this can loop by itself with things like Goblin Bombardment / Yawgmoth.
It's not a surprise to me at all considering its celing and that big 5 mana blue spells are already commonly played like Mystic Confluence / Bribery / Treachery / etc. This has a much higher ceiling that Mystic Confluence, but is less flexible and more timing dependent. Also, not every cube is blazingly fast / cutthroat full of crazy combos and monarch / initiative running all over the place. A lot of cubes don't even run Bribery / Treachery due to their unfun play patterns, so this will especially be an attractive option there.
The ceiling is actually quite broken. Think Fractured Identity that can steal instants / sorceries, your opponent never gets to take advantage of their actual thing being in play, and it comes with a 3/3 flyer.