I'm interested to see how your list pans out, so definitely keep us updated!
Anyways, I just got back from an FNM (at probably the most competitive place in the area) and ended up going 3-2. It ended up being a great night for play testing and I learned quite a bit about the deck. Here's a quick rundown:
Round 1: 0-2 Loss vs G/R Monsters
Both games were just horrific draws. Game 1, I mulliganed to 6 and got a nice 3 land hand with playables, only to not draw another land for 6 turns. Game 2, I got mana flooded and never drew the Verdicts that I sideboarded in and definitely needed. No real conclusions to be made from this, though I do think I'm going to make Verdict a 3-of in the sideboard for this matchup.
Round 2: 2-0 Win vs R/W/B
This was an interesting deck using cards like Underworld Cerberus and High Priest of Penance. It wasn't very heavy on removal (or he didn't draw into it) so my deck was able to mostly run rampant, which is smooth sailing for me. He almost built up a big enough board presence in game 2 to make a comeback, but I was able to top deck the land I needed to cast Angel of Serenity and alpha strike for the win. Nothing really much to say here since it wasn't a usual style deck and likely isn't something I'll be seeing at qualifiers. It was a very cool deck, though, and I love seeing people try out cool ideas like that. It has potential.
Round 3: 2-1 Win vs Golgari Midrange
This was another very cool deck, and one that I've actually been wanting to build myself. It was a G/B deck with cards like Vraska, Sylvan Primordial, Reaper of the Wilds, Scavenging Ooze, Pack Rat and all the G/B removal goodness you could want. I lost game 1 to mana screw but won the following 2 games against Pack Rat. I found out in this round that a turn 2 Precinct Captain -> turn 3 Fiendslayer Paladin -> turn 4 Spear of Heliod just absolutely wrecks the Pack Rat plan. Not only to I get the early creature advantage (and lifegain from Fiendslayer), but I'm able to buy time until I draw a Detention Sphere, which is just a beautiful thing against the rat plague. If my memory serves correctly, both of the last 2 games started with turn 2 Captain vs turn 2 Pack Rat. The Captain handily won both times thanks to backup from Spear, Brimaz and Fiendslayer. It's also worthy to note that I brought in Jace, Memory Adept in post-board and he performed very very well; he actually won me game 2 with his ultimate.
Round 4: 2-0 Win vs Mono Black Devotion
Here's the one matchup that I keep talking about and the one that I want to test the most. I'm happy to say that the deck plays absolutely wonderfully against Mono Black now. Oh, turn 1 Thoughtseize? Have fun deciding between Brimaz, Fiendslayer, Sphinx's Rev etc. Turn 2 Pack Rat? Ask the guy from the previous round how that usually goes. Desecration Demon? Hmmm yeah, time for the tokens to take over. One interesting thing to note is that he Devour Fleshed me at one point and it triggered Archangel; that was the first time I had that happen. Sadly, however, Nightveil Specter never made an appearance so I didn't get to try that out, but I was able to face down all the other threats with ease. The deck puts such a steady, never-ending pressure on the opponent that their 1 for 1 removals simply can't keep up, especially with Spear of Heliod out. If my deck gets a decently fast start and the black deck stumbles at ALL, it seems to be nearly impossible for them to regain momentum. A far cry from how the previous deck fared against the MBD menace. I'm very pleased with how the deck feels in this matchup; it no longer feels like I'm running into a buzzsaw. I think the biggest indicator of this is the fact that every time I was Thoughtseized tonight (including the round prior to this), the opponent had to think long and hard about what to remove.
Round 5: 0-2 Loss vs Esper Control
This is the other bully on the block next to MBD that I've been wanting to put a dent into, but it's a matchup that I haven't been able to test at all until tonight. Despite the 0-2 record, I was actually quite pleased with how the round went. Pre-sideboard was plain bad, which is to be expected. The local meta is mono black, aggro and midrange decks, which is what my main 60 is tailored for. No worries there. Post board, however, things got interesting. This is what I did:
Game 2 was a faaaaaar cry from game 1. We went blow for blow pretty much the whole time. I'd get some board presence, he'd tap out to kill it, I'd respond with a nice Sphinx's Rev to keep the pressure on, etc etc. It was a very close game until the end when I eventually ran out of steam due to a rather silly misplay. Similar to the MBD matchup, this matchup also felt a lot less hopeless than it did with the pre-BnG aggroish build. Revoke Existence was an all star, but I definitely think the Negates and Pithing Needle will be moved out for more threats. I might end up running Reckoner and Paladin side by side in this matchup and I feel like this matchup can be heavily in my favor with a few tweaks. The reason being that my late game felt close to being on par with the control deck while my ability to actually deal damage and apply pressure is far greater. We'll see how the sideboard shapes up in the coming days; I have some thinking to do. But either way, game 2 was very fun and I look forward to further testing in this matchup.
So as you can see, it's really just the sideboard I'm focused on right now. However, there is one very small main deck tweak I want to make. Throughout the night, I never got the play Ephara. I really want to explore this more because I feel a 2nd Ephara will add a ton of value to my deck throughout the game. Even a lategame Precinct Captain will have value. Ephara and Heliod on the board at the same time can turn into a card drawing machine. Ephara is rather easy to turn on with Detention Sphere and can be quite a menace for control decks to deal with; not only will I get card draw out of all my creature spells and tokens, but I'm still running 3 Sphinx's Revs and 4 Azorius Charms. Also, unlike control's midgame card draw engine, Jace AoT, Ephara has the potential to put down some serious damage at 6 per swing. I'm not quite sure what card I'm going to remove from the deck, but I will find room.
Also, as I mentioned in my previous playtesting update, I felt that I was too quick to sideboard out Precinct Captain. Tonight reinforced that feeling. He put in some serious work tonight and was quite the nuisance for everyone. Fiendslayer Paladin ended up being a very relevant card as well, being a thorn in the side of all the black removal running around. The deck is definitely headed in the right direction and it feels very close to where it needs to be. Anyways, that's all for now, thanks for reading!
Honestly, I'm much happier with making them swing with specter. I'm not in for the long haul (except in my build but I still value that anyway) and would rather keep them down rather than let things sit stale.
I'm of the opinion that if you're not aggroing hard, you definitely want some flares mainboard.
I guess that's where we differ. With cards like Elspeth, Archangel and Sphinx's Rev, the long haul is what I'm aiming for. Hopefully enough snow melts tomorrow so that I can head out to FNM and get some more games under my belt. You could very well be right, but I want to try out my current list because it has felt quite good in the little testing I've done so far.
Your deck looks a bit off. You say you want to play midrange, yet you have aggro cards (Apparition, Banisher Priest, Lyev) and Jace AoT which is a control card. None of these really fit into a midrange shell. With midrange, you want to slowly trickle threats as you ramp up to the lategame. You also don't want a couple of 4 mana gods to be your biggest creature threats; midrange needs a lot more reach. So essentially, right now you have a deck that isn't going to kill the opponent fast enough early on and it has very little lategame reach with only a single Elspeth as your game changer. Here is my U/W Midrange deck currently in testing:
As you can see, the aggro cards like Banisher Priest and Lyev Skynight aren't there. Instead, I have Precinct Captain, Brimaz and Fiendslayer Paladin as my "only" early threats (FSP can be replaced by Reckoner as well). Each one of which can generate large advantages if not answered. Spear of Heliod is a great tool for getting added value out of these early threats, especially with the tokens they create; it also helps prevent counter-swings. Jace AoT is also not there because I want to keep steadily applying pressure on my opponent, not playing overly defensive. Then I ramp up into Archangel, Angel of Serenity, Elspeth and Sphinx's Rev; all of these cards put massive pressure on the opponent and make large impacts on the game state by themselves, especially after the opponent has had to use some of their answers on my early game threats.
So basically, you have a few options. You can go aggro (which is what your deck looks more like at the moment) by adding in Soldier of the Pantheon, Brave the Elements and Ajani, Caller of the Pride in place of AoT, Ephara and some other things (probably chuck 1 land for the lowered mana curve and 1 Brimaz so you don't get stuck with multiples in your hand). You can play midrange by taking out Lyev Skynight, Banisher Priest and Jace AoT for higher impact mid and lategame cards along the lines of what I'm running (and look at some of the other decklists in my thread for ideas). If you want to play control, then there are tons of decklists out there to take a look at, but it doesn't look like that's your gameplan.
I'm still playing with that list. I've showed it to kingcars and will post it if it holds through the various testing. I have to say, though. It has done wonderfully against mono blade devotion.
Frontline medic is ironically not as good for the indestructible as it is for reading whether the control player has a sphinx's revelation in hand. Play one against a UW or esper player and watch them. You'll see what I mean. I think we have too many good 3 drops to fit it but you should try. Its rather instructive.
I actually don't like FSP very much. Most importantly, it does not push past a nightveil, something I put a premium on.
Meanwhile, reckoner is nice. One of the important things is that it can fight polukranos and friends. I didn't put it in main for mine but I may consider trying to squeeze two. Hard to say.
Yeah, flare is definitely a sideboard card. In fact, I might make it a 3-of in the sideboard. Also, I don't really think the Nightveil Specter point really matters. If I'm not "able to push through" it, then that means they're not attacking with it. That's fine with me; they're giving up the possible card advantage from it and allowing me safer passage into the later phases of the game where my deck will be better (or at least giving me time to find some other answer to it). I'll get back to the Reckoner vs Fiendslayer debate in a moment.
I'm not talking about going straight up Wb devotion. I'm talking about WUb devotion. Basically keeping the WU devotion shell and adding 4 copies of BBV. So I'm looking at 3x Revelations, 4x BBV, 3x Brimaz, 2x Elspeth as the core of the deck.
Interesting idea, though I feel the mana base might get cluttered. Would be interesting to see how it works though.
I just typed out a big long thesis on the pros and cons of the deck and why I chose this and cut that etc and then realized it was just way too long. If anyone is interested I did save it to a temp file though. Let me add just one bit about why I do not advocate running Sphinx's Revelation in this type of deck. Its very tempting, I know, but hear me out...
Before BNG, I played a lot of the deck in my sig, U/w Devotion, and had months of playing/testing with it. Yes, it is awesome when you are able to pull off a big Rev, especially fueled by Nykthos. What I found, though, is you are still going to be wanting to tap out for your threats as often as possible. Post-sideboard, you'll be wanting to hold up mana as much as possible against Mono-B and UW to protect your team, and often a Rev may just sit in your hand while you never quite find the right timing to pull it off. The way I'm building my deck, I'm trying to be as proactive as possible and just keep pushing, and Revelations are more for when you're trying to play a more controlling game and I'm not convinced we should ever be doing that. My U/w build was much less aggressive than this one, and I eventually felt it was still more of a liability in the deck than a card I was really excited to see. It was best against UW control, but mitigated by the fact that they were still going to out-Rev you in the long game, so I opt for more pressure. Back up the powerful creature base with Brave the Elements and Rootborn Defenses and just keep your foot on the gas. That is my opinion, anyhow.
Also, I want to like Ephara here, but I haven't been comfortable cutting anything for her. She might just be better than Heliod but he's such a great mana sink. My list is all about powering out big threats like AoT, AoS, and Elspeth as fast as possible and just totally steamrolling your opponent. Its been working great for me so far. I would also love to make room for Blind Obedience, and might have to. Daxos is interesting too.
Ok, that was still pretty long, so I'll stop now. I really hope white devotion can become viable, I think we have one of the best devotion bases in the meta with non-creature permanents as well as a lot of ways to protect the creatures we have on the board.
Hope that adds some value to the discussion!
Thanks for the input! Your list looks very similar to my older list, which I definitely would agree on the fact that Rev is not good there. However, Jace AoT doesn't fit there either. Run a good creature to keep the pressure on instead of 2 AoTs. Boros Reckoner would fit nicely in that slot, and turn on Heliod. Heck, maybe even try the Ephara in that slot as a 1-of; she's been great for me so far. I would also be wary of running 4 uncolored mana (Nykthos). On Sunday when I was running 2 Nykthos and 1 Mutavault among my 26 lands, it ended up hurting me very often. Maybe I just had bad luck but who knows.
Ok anyways, I got to do some playtesting tonight with friends using the newly tweaked version of the deck. Some thoughts after playing against a B/W deck running tons of removal:
- Everything felt much smoother. The tempo felt good.
- I think I was way too quick to board out Precinct Captain during Sunday's tournament. Getting out a turn 2 Captain is a great way to apply early pressure.
- I tried out both Fiendslayer Paladin and Boros Reckoner and they both performed very nicely, so I still can't come to a conclusion there. The B/W deck had a hard time dealing with the Paladin once it hit the board.
- Ephara and Heliod are a match made in heaven. Heliod gives Ephara vigilance and the tokens provide card draw. There's a part of me that wants a 2nd Ephara in the deck.
- Ugh I hate playing against Blood Baron (much like how I hate playing against Stormbreath haha)
- Spear of Heliod is a work horse.
Basically, the way the deck seems to work is quite different from my old version. The old deck would play like "Here's a bunch of stuff, I hope you don't have too much removal/hand disruption!" The new deck plays like "Here's a threat, deal with it. Ok cool, here's another threat, deal with it. And another. While I'm at it, let me D-Sphere/bounce your main threat, or keep Spear mana ready. Oh, you used all your removal? Now I'll win with a stronger lategame."
The Medic/Verdict combo is fun but it's just too fragile when playing against mass removal decks. It worked well in my local meta because the guys that played at the local store mostly played aggressive decks with little removal, but once I go into the bigger tournaments it never works out. Looks like you've come to mostly the same conclusions I have.
Anyways, I've been doing a lot of thinking on the Fiendslayer vs Reckoner issue for my deck. I can't really come up with a clear winner. Here's the rundown:
Fiendslayer:
- Lifelink. Several games yesterday were decided by 2-4 points of health, in which case even just a single swing with Fiendslayer would have made the difference. The synergy with Archangel is nice too (especially with first strike, since everything will get buffed BEFORE regular combat damage)
- First Strike. With Fiendslayer, Precinct Captain and Brimaz as my early defense, it will be hard to push damage through. My opponent will either have to deal with a first strike wall or a Brimaz. Not fun for them, but perfect for letting my deck do its thing.
- Removal resistance. Sure, it does not have full protection but it dodges a LOT of the most common removal out there. Shock, Lightning Strike, Mizzium Mortars, Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight etc. That is very relevant, especially when wanting to keep devotion up.
- Not as much devotion.
Reckoner:
- Holy devotion, Batman! Reckoner by himself with ANY other permanent in my deck will turn on Heliod. Same holds true with Ephara, with only the exception of Blind Obedience. This is certainly relevant.
- Solid defensive tool and can trade up against larger creatures/board states.
- More vulnerable to removal.
- Costs extra mana to get first strike.
It's a hard choice, so I'm going to just keep switching them out and seeing which ends up being more relevant. I have a feeling that both will be great, though.
Not necessarily. If they're smart, they'll at least generate a token with Xenagos as a sac outlet for their attack. I think this is very dependent on the specific situation.
The problem with Flare is that it only really works if Stormbreath is the only creature they're attacking with, which is rarely the case. With Rapid, it's a direct targeting instant that turns Stormbreath into something much easier to deal with.
Honestly, I encountered a rather wide range of decks today in the 5 rounds I played:
Mono Blue devotion
Mono Red Aggro/Burn (this deck was ungodly fast)
G/R Monsters
Mono Black (twice)
U/W based control decks (like Esper) were also present but I didn't play against any of them, so I'm not sure how that matchup will play out. I will say that I felt a lot less "gross" playing against Mono Black today as I used to with older versions of the deck. This deck feels much more resilient to Mono Black's shenanigans.
I don't use Ajani, not because of Elspeth, but because the gameplan isn't to get early board presence and push through lots of damage early like my older deck. I play just enough early threats to keep my opponents on their toes, then once they've used up most of their answers, out comes Archangel, Elspeth, Sphinx's Rev, Angel of Serenity etc. I'm generally slightly behind on board presence in the early game so I'm not using my creatures to attack much.
......aaaaaand I just realized that I completely missed Milk's post on the last page, so now I feel silly haha (but the information I said above may still be useful). I'll take this chance to post my revised decklist:
EDIT: Just checked out your decklist. Some inital thoughts:
- It sounds like you're having the same thoughts I did where you just have to decide which gameplan to go towards. That's why I ended up with midrange; it's enough of a mix of both worlds to keep me happy haha.
- Oddly enough, I feel that Daxos is a very unexplored card and could actually prove to be really fun to play.
- As for Soldier of the Pantheon, it is a fantastic 1 drop that does a ton of work. Since it seems you're going a more aggressive route, it's a great card for you.
- AoS is probably a bit high on the mana cost for a semi-aggressive 24 land deck, so I'd probably stay away from it (especially with only 1 Nykthos); Elspeth is likely a better choice. Even with 26 lands, I missed my 6th and 7th land drops a couple of times today.
- Jace AoT is nice, but probably not a great fit for an aggressive deck. When I'm pounding away at my opponent, I'd much rather drop a turn 4 Heliod, Medic, Boros Reckoner etc.
- Ephara will be nice against heavy removal decks like Mono Black so you can at least start to get your hand back together.
Alright guys, I just got back from a tournament a few hours ago and it didn't go too well. Much like my first time at a real tournament a few months ago, I ended up getting goose egged on rounds after making it to game 3 every single time. Between some shoddy misplays on my part, incredibly lucky top decks by my opponents and some horrible luck on my end (like having 4-5 turns to draw one of the several cards/land I needed to win and not getting it), it just never worked out. The first round was against mono blue devotion, which was my first time ever getting to play the match up. It ended up in a game 3 draw because my opponent just stalled until time ran out. Given time, I had the upper hand the whole time and would have won, which was frustrating. However, I was able to win my first ever game against Mono Black devotion (a legit game...as in, I didn't win because he got mana screwed or something haha). Despite the frustration, I gained some valuable information on how the deck plays out:
The Good:
- Scry lands!
- Ephara, while not popping up much, ended up being very nice to have when she did show up. As expected, her synergy with my deck's token generation made for some awesome card draw. Almost tempted to add a 2nd one at some point.
- Brimaz was a great stabilization piece and always forced an immediate reaction from my opponent. He filled his role of either stabilizing the game or clearing the way for Archangel. Also plays nice with Ephara.
- Spear of Heliod was very good, especially with all the token generation.
- Scry Lands!
- Blind Obedience continues to be a favorite of mine. It does some major work, especially against R/G Monsters decks.
- Angel of Serenity...sweet card as always haha.
- Last Breath and Revoke Existence are excellent sideboard cards. They came in handy in many cases today, and take care of a lot of important threats (Nightveil Specter, Master of Waves). Supreme Verdict also continues to be useful, as expected.
- Did I mention scry lands?
The Bad:
- Remember what I said about Ajani only being good when you're ahead on the board and playing offensively? While I'm glad I didn't use him in my deck for this exact reason, I found out that Aetherling suffers from the same issue. Not only that, but needing at least 3 blue mana upon casting is a pain. Replacing him with a 3rd Sphinx's Revelation.
- Running a 3rd uncolored land in Mutavault was a huge mistake. It screwed me over several times while rarely bringing any value to the board states I encountered. Maybe it was just bad luck, but it's going back to a basic land instead.
- Banisher Priest was decent, but doesn't feel like the right card. The aggro decks push damage right through regardless, so I definitely need a card that is better for stabilizing there. I'm thinking about trying my original idea (Boros Reckoner) or Fiendslayer Paladin. I like the idea of Fiendslayer Paladin because he has lifelink, first strike, and is resistant to removal. The early game creatures that were giving me issues were X/2s or smaller so he would take care of them just fine. However, Reckoner is a fantastic devotion enabler and is a bit bigger when he enters the battlefield. Further play testing will need to happen with this.
The Unknown:
- While I'm still not 100% sure of it, Azorius Charm was nice for card draw and creature bouncing. I feel like there are some unexplored plays with it within my deck (hello lifelink), so it will stay for a while.
- Now that I think back to some of the long, drawn out games I played, I think I should experiment with sideboarding in Jace, Memory Adept. It pretty much forces my opponent to find a way to kill me (or him) quickly.
- With some of the board states I encountered today, Supreme Verdict might be moved to the mainboard at some point if the trend continues. Once again, this will need some further play testing.
Overall, I don't feel like there needs to be any major changes to the deck, just a few minor ones. A lot of the theorized ideas worked out nicely and have provided a nice platform to build on. With some tweaking, I expect it to do very very well.
The red splash gives a nice removal suite and Boros Charm is great against Supreme Verdict and Fated Retribution; it would fit nicely with a more aggressive iteration of the deck. I've also considered W/B for BBV and it's definitely an option for anyone interested. That's the nice thing about the white shell; it can be morphed into many different things.
As for Ajani, as mentioned earlier, I've thought about it some more. The problem with Ajani in the current midrange version of this deck is that he's really good when you're ahead on the board and attacking early, but not very good when the opponent is ahead on the board; this version of the deck will not be putting out a huge presence early on. The gameplan is to survive until one of the many 5+ cmc bombs comes out, not to kill early. That's just a current thought of mine and it may change after I play some more games; as Nev said, he does survive Verdict and has some nice synergies with other cards in the deck, so it could very well make the mainboard after some testing.
Good point on Ajani, Nev. Would be a great fit for that flexible 2-card spot that Banisher Priest is currently sitting in. I'll try him in that slot.
Milkpail, I'm glad I could inspire! I've always felt like this archetype has been really close to competitive, I just haven't quite found the right mix yet. I love it because I find the spells interesting and fun to play. It's not like control where you sit around all game with counters and removal until you draw Sphinx's Rev and it's not like aggro where if you don't win by turn 5, you lose - it's a nice middle ground. As for your questions:
- The soldiers are gone because the deck has turned more midrange. I'm now running 26 lands instead of 23 and the deck is loaded to the gills with huge late-game threats - Elspeth, Archangel, Sphinx's Revelation, Angel of Serenity and Aetherling. So there's more of a late-game focus now as opposed to early game. Also, my previous deck iteration had serious problems with the 2 most common competitive decks, Mono Black and U/W-based control decks. Mono Black will just rip the opening hand apart and control will just counter and remove everything; in both instances, the deck gains zero momentum and just turns into hoping for a lucky top deck. With the new setup, there are plenty of ways to get card draw. Ephara should be able to trigger a ton with all the possible token generation (Precinct, Heliod, Brimaz and Elspeth) and of course there's Sphinx's Revelations. Depending on how Ephara does, I may add a 2nd one eventually. Maybe Divination could find a spot in the sideboard for the Mono Black matchup, but either way, I feel the current iteration of the deck will be much better equipped for those two matchups.
- Jace AoT is more of a purely defensive control card, in my opinion. It prevents damage and allows for goldfishing. I like my style to be more aggressive when possible. This deck likes to stabilize behind creatures then buff them once Archangel rolls out. And if you look at it, the current set of creatures are great for stabilizing and pressuring the opponent at the same time.
- I've thought about red splash a lot. I think the previous iteration of the deck (with the Soldiers and such) would be a perfect candidate for splashing red for Boros Charm, Mizzium Mortars etc.
I also highly recommend watching the video I posted along with the actual Versus episode where BBD plays the deck. It's very informative.
Anyways, I just got back from an FNM (at probably the most competitive place in the area) and ended up going 3-2. It ended up being a great night for play testing and I learned quite a bit about the deck. Here's a quick rundown:
Round 1: 0-2 Loss vs G/R Monsters
Both games were just horrific draws. Game 1, I mulliganed to 6 and got a nice 3 land hand with playables, only to not draw another land for 6 turns. Game 2, I got mana flooded and never drew the Verdicts that I sideboarded in and definitely needed. No real conclusions to be made from this, though I do think I'm going to make Verdict a 3-of in the sideboard for this matchup.
Round 2: 2-0 Win vs R/W/B
This was an interesting deck using cards like Underworld Cerberus and High Priest of Penance. It wasn't very heavy on removal (or he didn't draw into it) so my deck was able to mostly run rampant, which is smooth sailing for me. He almost built up a big enough board presence in game 2 to make a comeback, but I was able to top deck the land I needed to cast Angel of Serenity and alpha strike for the win. Nothing really much to say here since it wasn't a usual style deck and likely isn't something I'll be seeing at qualifiers. It was a very cool deck, though, and I love seeing people try out cool ideas like that. It has potential.
Round 3: 2-1 Win vs Golgari Midrange
This was another very cool deck, and one that I've actually been wanting to build myself. It was a G/B deck with cards like Vraska, Sylvan Primordial, Reaper of the Wilds, Scavenging Ooze, Pack Rat and all the G/B removal goodness you could want. I lost game 1 to mana screw but won the following 2 games against Pack Rat. I found out in this round that a turn 2 Precinct Captain -> turn 3 Fiendslayer Paladin -> turn 4 Spear of Heliod just absolutely wrecks the Pack Rat plan. Not only to I get the early creature advantage (and lifegain from Fiendslayer), but I'm able to buy time until I draw a Detention Sphere, which is just a beautiful thing against the rat plague. If my memory serves correctly, both of the last 2 games started with turn 2 Captain vs turn 2 Pack Rat. The Captain handily won both times thanks to backup from Spear, Brimaz and Fiendslayer. It's also worthy to note that I brought in Jace, Memory Adept in post-board and he performed very very well; he actually won me game 2 with his ultimate.
Round 4: 2-0 Win vs Mono Black Devotion
Here's the one matchup that I keep talking about and the one that I want to test the most. I'm happy to say that the deck plays absolutely wonderfully against Mono Black now. Oh, turn 1 Thoughtseize? Have fun deciding between Brimaz, Fiendslayer, Sphinx's Rev etc. Turn 2 Pack Rat? Ask the guy from the previous round how that usually goes. Desecration Demon? Hmmm yeah, time for the tokens to take over. One interesting thing to note is that he Devour Fleshed me at one point and it triggered Archangel; that was the first time I had that happen. Sadly, however, Nightveil Specter never made an appearance so I didn't get to try that out, but I was able to face down all the other threats with ease. The deck puts such a steady, never-ending pressure on the opponent that their 1 for 1 removals simply can't keep up, especially with Spear of Heliod out. If my deck gets a decently fast start and the black deck stumbles at ALL, it seems to be nearly impossible for them to regain momentum. A far cry from how the previous deck fared against the MBD menace. I'm very pleased with how the deck feels in this matchup; it no longer feels like I'm running into a buzzsaw. I think the biggest indicator of this is the fact that every time I was Thoughtseized tonight (including the round prior to this), the opponent had to think long and hard about what to remove.
Round 5: 0-2 Loss vs Esper Control
This is the other bully on the block next to MBD that I've been wanting to put a dent into, but it's a matchup that I haven't been able to test at all until tonight. Despite the 0-2 record, I was actually quite pleased with how the round went. Pre-sideboard was plain bad, which is to be expected. The local meta is mono black, aggro and midrange decks, which is what my main 60 is tailored for. No worries there. Post board, however, things got interesting. This is what I did:
-2 Blind Obedience
-4 Azorius Charm
-2 Fiendslayer Paladin
-1 Archangel of Thune
+2 Revoke Existence
+3 Negate
+2 Boros Reckoner
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Jace, Memory Adept
Game 2 was a faaaaaar cry from game 1. We went blow for blow pretty much the whole time. I'd get some board presence, he'd tap out to kill it, I'd respond with a nice Sphinx's Rev to keep the pressure on, etc etc. It was a very close game until the end when I eventually ran out of steam due to a rather silly misplay. Similar to the MBD matchup, this matchup also felt a lot less hopeless than it did with the pre-BnG aggroish build. Revoke Existence was an all star, but I definitely think the Negates and Pithing Needle will be moved out for more threats. I might end up running Reckoner and Paladin side by side in this matchup and I feel like this matchup can be heavily in my favor with a few tweaks. The reason being that my late game felt close to being on par with the control deck while my ability to actually deal damage and apply pressure is far greater. We'll see how the sideboard shapes up in the coming days; I have some thinking to do. But either way, game 2 was very fun and I look forward to further testing in this matchup.
So as you can see, it's really just the sideboard I'm focused on right now. However, there is one very small main deck tweak I want to make. Throughout the night, I never got the play Ephara. I really want to explore this more because I feel a 2nd Ephara will add a ton of value to my deck throughout the game. Even a lategame Precinct Captain will have value. Ephara and Heliod on the board at the same time can turn into a card drawing machine. Ephara is rather easy to turn on with Detention Sphere and can be quite a menace for control decks to deal with; not only will I get card draw out of all my creature spells and tokens, but I'm still running 3 Sphinx's Revs and 4 Azorius Charms. Also, unlike control's midgame card draw engine, Jace AoT, Ephara has the potential to put down some serious damage at 6 per swing. I'm not quite sure what card I'm going to remove from the deck, but I will find room.
Also, as I mentioned in my previous playtesting update, I felt that I was too quick to sideboard out Precinct Captain. Tonight reinforced that feeling. He put in some serious work tonight and was quite the nuisance for everyone. Fiendslayer Paladin ended up being a very relevant card as well, being a thorn in the side of all the black removal running around. The deck is definitely headed in the right direction and it feels very close to where it needs to be. Anyways, that's all for now, thanks for reading!
I guess that's where we differ. With cards like Elspeth, Archangel and Sphinx's Rev, the long haul is what I'm aiming for. Hopefully enough snow melts tomorrow so that I can head out to FNM and get some more games under my belt. You could very well be right, but I want to try out my current list because it has felt quite good in the little testing I've done so far.
4x Precinct Captain
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Ephara, God of the Polis
4x Archangel of Thune
1x Angel of Serenity
Spells
2x Blind Obedience
4x Azorius Charm
4x Detention Sphere
2x Spear of Heliod
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Sphinx's Revelation
13x Plains
3x Island
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Last Breath
2x Celestial Flare
1x Pithing Needle
2x Boros Reckoner (for testing)
3x Negate
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Revoke Existence
And my thread about the deck: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/504873-devotion-to-archangel-u-w-midrange-edition?page=4
As you can see, the aggro cards like Banisher Priest and Lyev Skynight aren't there. Instead, I have Precinct Captain, Brimaz and Fiendslayer Paladin as my "only" early threats (FSP can be replaced by Reckoner as well). Each one of which can generate large advantages if not answered. Spear of Heliod is a great tool for getting added value out of these early threats, especially with the tokens they create; it also helps prevent counter-swings. Jace AoT is also not there because I want to keep steadily applying pressure on my opponent, not playing overly defensive. Then I ramp up into Archangel, Angel of Serenity, Elspeth and Sphinx's Rev; all of these cards put massive pressure on the opponent and make large impacts on the game state by themselves, especially after the opponent has had to use some of their answers on my early game threats.
So basically, you have a few options. You can go aggro (which is what your deck looks more like at the moment) by adding in Soldier of the Pantheon, Brave the Elements and Ajani, Caller of the Pride in place of AoT, Ephara and some other things (probably chuck 1 land for the lowered mana curve and 1 Brimaz so you don't get stuck with multiples in your hand). You can play midrange by taking out Lyev Skynight, Banisher Priest and Jace AoT for higher impact mid and lategame cards along the lines of what I'm running (and look at some of the other decklists in my thread for ideas). If you want to play control, then there are tons of decklists out there to take a look at, but it doesn't look like that's your gameplan.
Also, here's a great deck tech with BBD about this archetype: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJ4bpkmNkQ
I hope this helps!
Yeah, flare is definitely a sideboard card. In fact, I might make it a 3-of in the sideboard. Also, I don't really think the Nightveil Specter point really matters. If I'm not "able to push through" it, then that means they're not attacking with it. That's fine with me; they're giving up the possible card advantage from it and allowing me safer passage into the later phases of the game where my deck will be better (or at least giving me time to find some other answer to it). I'll get back to the Reckoner vs Fiendslayer debate in a moment.
Interesting idea, though I feel the mana base might get cluttered. Would be interesting to see how it works though.
Thanks for the input! Your list looks very similar to my older list, which I definitely would agree on the fact that Rev is not good there. However, Jace AoT doesn't fit there either. Run a good creature to keep the pressure on instead of 2 AoTs. Boros Reckoner would fit nicely in that slot, and turn on Heliod. Heck, maybe even try the Ephara in that slot as a 1-of; she's been great for me so far. I would also be wary of running 4 uncolored mana (Nykthos). On Sunday when I was running 2 Nykthos and 1 Mutavault among my 26 lands, it ended up hurting me very often. Maybe I just had bad luck but who knows.
Ok anyways, I got to do some playtesting tonight with friends using the newly tweaked version of the deck. Some thoughts after playing against a B/W deck running tons of removal:
- Everything felt much smoother. The tempo felt good.
- I think I was way too quick to board out Precinct Captain during Sunday's tournament. Getting out a turn 2 Captain is a great way to apply early pressure.
- I tried out both Fiendslayer Paladin and Boros Reckoner and they both performed very nicely, so I still can't come to a conclusion there. The B/W deck had a hard time dealing with the Paladin once it hit the board.
- Ephara and Heliod are a match made in heaven. Heliod gives Ephara vigilance and the tokens provide card draw. There's a part of me that wants a 2nd Ephara in the deck.
- Ugh I hate playing against Blood Baron (much like how I hate playing against Stormbreath haha)
- Spear of Heliod is a work horse.
Basically, the way the deck seems to work is quite different from my old version. The old deck would play like "Here's a bunch of stuff, I hope you don't have too much removal/hand disruption!" The new deck plays like "Here's a threat, deal with it. Ok cool, here's another threat, deal with it. And another. While I'm at it, let me D-Sphere/bounce your main threat, or keep Spear mana ready. Oh, you used all your removal? Now I'll win with a stronger lategame."
Anyways, I've been doing a lot of thinking on the Fiendslayer vs Reckoner issue for my deck. I can't really come up with a clear winner. Here's the rundown:
Fiendslayer:
- Lifelink. Several games yesterday were decided by 2-4 points of health, in which case even just a single swing with Fiendslayer would have made the difference. The synergy with Archangel is nice too (especially with first strike, since everything will get buffed BEFORE regular combat damage)
- First Strike. With Fiendslayer, Precinct Captain and Brimaz as my early defense, it will be hard to push damage through. My opponent will either have to deal with a first strike wall or a Brimaz. Not fun for them, but perfect for letting my deck do its thing.
- Removal resistance. Sure, it does not have full protection but it dodges a LOT of the most common removal out there. Shock, Lightning Strike, Mizzium Mortars, Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight etc. That is very relevant, especially when wanting to keep devotion up.
- Not as much devotion.
Reckoner:
- Holy devotion, Batman! Reckoner by himself with ANY other permanent in my deck will turn on Heliod. Same holds true with Ephara, with only the exception of Blind Obedience. This is certainly relevant.
- Solid defensive tool and can trade up against larger creatures/board states.
- More vulnerable to removal.
- Costs extra mana to get first strike.
It's a hard choice, so I'm going to just keep switching them out and seeing which ends up being more relevant. I have a feeling that both will be great, though.
Mono Blue devotion
Mono Red Aggro/Burn (this deck was ungodly fast)
G/R Monsters
Mono Black (twice)
U/W based control decks (like Esper) were also present but I didn't play against any of them, so I'm not sure how that matchup will play out. I will say that I felt a lot less "gross" playing against Mono Black today as I used to with older versions of the deck. This deck feels much more resilient to Mono Black's shenanigans.
I don't use Ajani, not because of Elspeth, but because the gameplan isn't to get early board presence and push through lots of damage early like my older deck. I play just enough early threats to keep my opponents on their toes, then once they've used up most of their answers, out comes Archangel, Elspeth, Sphinx's Rev, Angel of Serenity etc. I'm generally slightly behind on board presence in the early game so I'm not using my creatures to attack much.
......aaaaaand I just realized that I completely missed Milk's post on the last page, so now I feel silly haha (but the information I said above may still be useful). I'll take this chance to post my revised decklist:
4x Precinct Captain
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Ephara, God of the Polis
4x Archangel of Thune
1x Angel of Serenity
Spells
2x Blind Obedience
4x Azorius Charm
4x Detention Sphere
2x Spear of Heliod
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Sphinx's Revelation
13x Plains
3x Island
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Last Breath
2x Celestial Flare
1x Pithing Needle
2x Boros Reckoner (for testing)
3x Negate
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Revoke Existence
Milk, I'll check out your decklist in a moment
EDIT: Just checked out your decklist. Some inital thoughts:
- It sounds like you're having the same thoughts I did where you just have to decide which gameplan to go towards. That's why I ended up with midrange; it's enough of a mix of both worlds to keep me happy haha.
- Oddly enough, I feel that Daxos is a very unexplored card and could actually prove to be really fun to play.
- As for Soldier of the Pantheon, it is a fantastic 1 drop that does a ton of work. Since it seems you're going a more aggressive route, it's a great card for you.
- AoS is probably a bit high on the mana cost for a semi-aggressive 24 land deck, so I'd probably stay away from it (especially with only 1 Nykthos); Elspeth is likely a better choice. Even with 26 lands, I missed my 6th and 7th land drops a couple of times today.
- Jace AoT is nice, but probably not a great fit for an aggressive deck. When I'm pounding away at my opponent, I'd much rather drop a turn 4 Heliod, Medic, Boros Reckoner etc.
- Ephara will be nice against heavy removal decks like Mono Black so you can at least start to get your hand back together.
The Good:
- Scry lands!
- Ephara, while not popping up much, ended up being very nice to have when she did show up. As expected, her synergy with my deck's token generation made for some awesome card draw. Almost tempted to add a 2nd one at some point.
- Brimaz was a great stabilization piece and always forced an immediate reaction from my opponent. He filled his role of either stabilizing the game or clearing the way for Archangel. Also plays nice with Ephara.
- Spear of Heliod was very good, especially with all the token generation.
- Scry Lands!
- Blind Obedience continues to be a favorite of mine. It does some major work, especially against R/G Monsters decks.
- Angel of Serenity...sweet card as always haha.
- Last Breath and Revoke Existence are excellent sideboard cards. They came in handy in many cases today, and take care of a lot of important threats (Nightveil Specter, Master of Waves). Supreme Verdict also continues to be useful, as expected.
- Did I mention scry lands?
The Bad:
- Remember what I said about Ajani only being good when you're ahead on the board and playing offensively? While I'm glad I didn't use him in my deck for this exact reason, I found out that Aetherling suffers from the same issue. Not only that, but needing at least 3 blue mana upon casting is a pain. Replacing him with a 3rd Sphinx's Revelation.
- Running a 3rd uncolored land in Mutavault was a huge mistake. It screwed me over several times while rarely bringing any value to the board states I encountered. Maybe it was just bad luck, but it's going back to a basic land instead.
- Banisher Priest was decent, but doesn't feel like the right card. The aggro decks push damage right through regardless, so I definitely need a card that is better for stabilizing there. I'm thinking about trying my original idea (Boros Reckoner) or Fiendslayer Paladin. I like the idea of Fiendslayer Paladin because he has lifelink, first strike, and is resistant to removal. The early game creatures that were giving me issues were X/2s or smaller so he would take care of them just fine. However, Reckoner is a fantastic devotion enabler and is a bit bigger when he enters the battlefield. Further play testing will need to happen with this.
The Unknown:
- While I'm still not 100% sure of it, Azorius Charm was nice for card draw and creature bouncing. I feel like there are some unexplored plays with it within my deck (hello lifelink), so it will stay for a while.
- Now that I think back to some of the long, drawn out games I played, I think I should experiment with sideboarding in Jace, Memory Adept. It pretty much forces my opponent to find a way to kill me (or him) quickly.
- With some of the board states I encountered today, Supreme Verdict might be moved to the mainboard at some point if the trend continues. Once again, this will need some further play testing.
Overall, I don't feel like there needs to be any major changes to the deck, just a few minor ones. A lot of the theorized ideas worked out nicely and have provided a nice platform to build on. With some tweaking, I expect it to do very very well.
As for Ajani, as mentioned earlier, I've thought about it some more. The problem with Ajani in the current midrange version of this deck is that he's really good when you're ahead on the board and attacking early, but not very good when the opponent is ahead on the board; this version of the deck will not be putting out a huge presence early on. The gameplan is to survive until one of the many 5+ cmc bombs comes out, not to kill early. That's just a current thought of mine and it may change after I play some more games; as Nev said, he does survive Verdict and has some nice synergies with other cards in the deck, so it could very well make the mainboard after some testing.
Milkpail, I'm glad I could inspire! I've always felt like this archetype has been really close to competitive, I just haven't quite found the right mix yet. I love it because I find the spells interesting and fun to play. It's not like control where you sit around all game with counters and removal until you draw Sphinx's Rev and it's not like aggro where if you don't win by turn 5, you lose - it's a nice middle ground. As for your questions:
- The soldiers are gone because the deck has turned more midrange. I'm now running 26 lands instead of 23 and the deck is loaded to the gills with huge late-game threats - Elspeth, Archangel, Sphinx's Revelation, Angel of Serenity and Aetherling. So there's more of a late-game focus now as opposed to early game. Also, my previous deck iteration had serious problems with the 2 most common competitive decks, Mono Black and U/W-based control decks. Mono Black will just rip the opening hand apart and control will just counter and remove everything; in both instances, the deck gains zero momentum and just turns into hoping for a lucky top deck. With the new setup, there are plenty of ways to get card draw. Ephara should be able to trigger a ton with all the possible token generation (Precinct, Heliod, Brimaz and Elspeth) and of course there's Sphinx's Revelations. Depending on how Ephara does, I may add a 2nd one eventually. Maybe Divination could find a spot in the sideboard for the Mono Black matchup, but either way, I feel the current iteration of the deck will be much better equipped for those two matchups.
- Jace AoT is more of a purely defensive control card, in my opinion. It prevents damage and allows for goldfishing. I like my style to be more aggressive when possible. This deck likes to stabilize behind creatures then buff them once Archangel rolls out. And if you look at it, the current set of creatures are great for stabilizing and pressuring the opponent at the same time.
- I've thought about red splash a lot. I think the previous iteration of the deck (with the Soldiers and such) would be a perfect candidate for splashing red for Boros Charm, Mizzium Mortars etc.
I also highly recommend watching the video I posted along with the actual Versus episode where BBD plays the deck. It's very informative.