I think one of your big issues is threat density. You do nicely if you curve up and no one stops you but that's not reality. Playing an aggroish set of cards next to supreme verdict is a little counter-intuitive. And so what if they have targeted removal? Your goal is to play more threats than they can remove.
Also, aetherling is not the issue. Letting them get to aetherling is the issue. If they're playing aetherling and you feel the slightest bit bothered, you've already lost. Instead of trying to control control, just increase your threat density and speed. Does a turn 1 2 power creature bother mono black? Well, let's see their train. You play the creature turn 1. They thoughtseize you. Next turn you hit them. If they don't doomblade it or something, it hits them again. If they are playing lifebane zombie, you get another swing off them. If they play nightveil specter, you still have options to push through and it isn't as though you've been doing nothing. So if its the lifebane train as you worry, an answer doesn't come till turn 4 most likely unless they kill it. And if they don't, its done 6 damage. Not too shabby for a little one drop. Make them use their removal. Every removal that goes towards a little creature is one less that can shoot down archangel of thune or whatever. Being more proactive instead of reactive is the way to go.
I agree with what you've said about threat density and being proactive. The main question here is what would I sideboard in/out in these cases? Soldier of the Pantheon often did do considerable damage against both control and mono black in much the same way you described (and there was one game where Precinct Captain just single handedly wrecked a control deck). Are there some 1-2 drops that I can fit in the sideboard? I have Fiendslayer Paladin in my sideboard that I can bring in, but what would come out? That's usually the biggest issue I face while sideboarding.
As for the Supreme Verdict subject, I've heard that from several people and have experimented with other types of removal like Celestial Flare, but the deck fell flat on its face when I did. Pretty much any other matchup - G/R Devotion, Mono Red, Boros Aggro, White Weenie etc, my deck simply wrecks them. I let them commit to the board, wipe with Verdict, lay out my board and win with relative ease. Either that or I get a fast start and my deck turns into a ticking time bomb, at which point Verdict isn't needed. I don't think there has ever been a time where, even when nuking my own creatures, the trade wasn't strongly in my favor. It's usually along the lines of...a Soldier and a Medic for Kalonian Hydra , Arbor Colossus and some mana dorks; that's a trade I'll take every day of the week. By the time I'm ready to Verdict, I already have a plan in place to take over the game and my opponent is too busy scrambling together whatever they can to recover which lets me just set up the win. Unless there's some other spell I haven't been thinking about, I feel like Verdict has to remain in this deck. The only other possible option is an overloaded Cyclonic Rift, but that doesn't really help unless I can overload it, and I'm likely dead by that point.
That's actually a very interesting variation, I like it a lot. I think the only change I would look at would be trading out Judge's Familiar for maybe something like Azorius Charm or Celestial Flare. With your late game focus, I think that would be a good switch. I have almost all the cards needed for that decklist so I might give something like that a try. The problem I had with trying to go late game against control is that they would just counter whatever spells I would try to cast, and they'd have more than enough land to do whatever they needed to do. I almost feel like sideboarding out my 2 Elspeths and 2 of my Archangels for 4 Paladins and just going aggro; throwing more threats at once than they can counter.
As for yesterday's qualifier, I unfortunately got matched up against control or mono black in almost every round. Those two matchups are certainly my worst, though I feel like my control matchup is much closer to where it needs to be than the mono black. Mono black just removes all of my threats and I can't draw more of them in time; even with Fiendslayer Paladins and 4 BtEs for protection. It's so bad that I'm considering Divination for my sideboard so I can rebound from the early onslaught of Thoughtseize, Lifebane and all of the targeted removal. Against control, Precinct Captain and Rootborn Defenses ended up being allstars but it simply isn't enough. Aetherling finished me off every time. I'm going to start running Gainsay in the sideboard in order to have some sort of response for it because the 1 Pithing Needle never showed up when I needed it (and it can be D Sphere'd).
Alright, just got back from FNM in which I was able to try out all of my new changes. My record on the night was 2-1-1 and I was able to play against the 2 decks that I've been wanting to test against - Mono Black and Esper Control. Here's the rundown on how those went:
Esper Control: 1-1 tie
I started out game 1 pretty fast, baited out several counter spells and landed lots of chip damage before dropping an Elspeth. After a few turns, an impending Elspeth ultimate with 9 tokens and a Frontline Medic on the field forced him to scoop.
In game 2, I brought in my sideboard stuff - 4 Rootborn Defenses, 1 D Sphere and 1 Pithing Needle. This game went a bit slower thanks to Jace AoT. Despite all of that, I had him down to 1 health before he drew into a Blood Baron and stabilized. With Jace, he was able to barely outrace me by 1 health per turn with Blood Baron before I was forced to make him drop a Verdict by putting my Archangel on the field (which I had been holding onto because I knew he had a verdict and I wanted 1 more land to be able to cast Archangel then follow it up with Rootborn). The killer here is that if I had been able to draw just 1 more land (I had 4-5 turns in which I could have done so), I could have drawn out the Verdict then protected my guys and win the game. But alas, it was not to be. With the board reset, I started building my board back up but he got an Aetherling and that was game over; I was unable to draw the Pithing Needle in time.
Mono Black: 2-0 loss
In game 1, we pretty much just traded blows until he was able to close the deal with Gary. Both of our life totals were very low and it really just turned into a game of "who can get the luckiest top decks." Erebos was able to shut down my Archangel's lifegain, which gave him just enough of an edge.
In game 2, I brought in my sideboard - 4 Fiendslayer Paladins, 1 D Sphere and 1 Brave the Elements. As discussed earlier, my strategy going into this matchup is to just make my creatures stick to the board and be as annoying as possible to remove. I also wanted an extra D Sphere for Erebos. The game started out in the worst way possible - I mulled to 6 and kept a 1 creature, 1 spell 4 land hand. Then he Thoughtseized me turn 1, nabbed the 1 creature I had (Fiendslayer) and Lifebane'd the Archangel I had just drawn on turn 3. Despite all that, I was able to stabilize nicely behind a couple of well timed D Spheres and drew into a pair of Archangels which began wreaking havoc before eventually getting removed. Sadly, both of the Fiendslayer Paladins I drew got removed by Thoughtseize. I did get revenge later in the game, however - I kept a land in my hand just to try to make him think I had something. The bluff worked and he Thoughtseized me once again, but this time for nothing. We both got a good laugh out of that. Either way, after another game of back and forth blows and both of us at low health, his Whip of Erebos was able to reanimate some creatures and put the final nail in the coffin. Another thing to note here is that I was unable to draw into any of the 4 Brave the Elements I had, which would have helped a ton.
Other worthy notes:
In the first round, which was against a R/G deck, I got a 2-0 win thanks to the new Elspeth/Archangel combination. In game 1 specifically, I got to see their synergy in full action. He got a Stormbreath Dragon out (which, like Mono B and Esper, was something specific I wanted to test against) which I ended up sniping with Elspeth's -3. I followed that up with Archangel, which started buffing all of Elspeth's tokens and put the game out of reach. In game 2, I pretty much just landed Elspeth and flooded the board with tokens.
So with all of that said, I'm feeling very confident going into tomorrow's qualifier. I got to play against a pair of tier 1 decks and my homebrew setup went toe to toe with both of them, even in games like the 2nd game against Mono B which started out in a worst case scenario. Putting in the 2 Elspeths and the 4th Archangel proved to be significantly positive changes and my sideboard strategies felt really good. I think the ONE thing I might try tomorrow is to sideboard in a couple of Divinations against Mono B. Just a little bit of card draw would help me a ton in that matchup with all of its hand disruption. As long as I can get my creatures to stick to the board, I feel like I have a really good chance.
So I got my 2 Elspeths in tonight and started to do some playtesting. Here are the changes I made:
-1 Hundred Handed One
-2 Sphinx's Revelations
+1 Archangel of Thune
+2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
If my current play testing is accurate, this deck has just vaulted up yet another notch. The tempo/pace feels absolutely perfect. The curve feels much smoother with Elspeth as my highest cmc finisher and she is much easier to Nykthos into. Seeing Sphinx's Rev in my opening hand was always a bit of a bummer, but I don't feel too bad about Elspeth because I know I can ramp or curve in much earlier. Also, I keep taking mental notes of my thoughts during games, mainly things like "What card do I consistently hope to top deck?" Archangel was right at the top of that list, so I decided to put the 4th one back in. The current playtesting has shown very positive results from this change. With things like Blind Obedience and Soldier of the Pantheon triggering life gain, having multiple Archangels out on the field just makes the effect absolutely devastating (and even just one, obviously, is great), especially with the threat of alpha strikes with Brave the Elements and/or Ajani always looming. This is compounded when Archangel and Elspeth are out on the field together - generating 3 soldiers per turn then buffing them.
So with that said, here's how the deck tends to play out:
Scenario 1 - I have a fast start, get a board presence, play aggro and beat my opponent into submission. When I do get a fast start, most players tend to think "Oh cool, a white weenie deck. I'll just play defense and go into the late game." That's when Archangel and Elspeth roll out as a nasty surprise.
Scenario 2 - I play defensive, let my opponent gain board presence as I chump block, D Sphere or whatever. Drop a verdict, then follow it up with whatever I may have kept in my hand. Usually by that point I have an Archangel or Elspeth to follow up with. If not that, then at least a quickly threatening combination of my 2-3cmc creatures.
With that said, I have also started to really sit down and think about my sideboard options. It's obvious that my mainboard is geared towards creature-heavy decks because that's what the local meta seems to be; lots of R/G Monsters, Boros Aggro, Selesnya Aggro etc. I feel like just about any creature heavy matchup is going to favor my deck. However, there are a few Esper Control decks and heavy removal decks floating around and most of my sideboard is tailored towards those matchups. Here's the current decklist, including an updated sideboard:
Ok so, my plan against heavy removal decks is to replace 4 Boros Reckoners and 1 Blind Obedience with 4 Fiendslayer Paladins and 1 Brave the Elements. Since most targeted removal is either black or red, Fiendslayer will be very difficult to remove. I will also slow down the rate at which I play creatures in order to leave mana open for Brave the Elements if needed. These changes will slow down my devotion and my strategy, but I'd rather have it slow down a little bit than get completely halted by an onslaught of Doom Blades, Hero's Downfalls and burn spells; Elspeth/Archangel give me late game reach so slowing my game down a little bit shouldn't hurt too much (especially with the added life gain triggers with Fiendslayer). If they can't take out my board presence, they will most likely lose.
Against control, I will be likely facing Supreme Verdict, lots of Planeswalkers and very few (if any) creatures. This is where I remove 3 verdicts and 2 Blind Obedience and replace them with 4 Rootborn Defenses and a Detention Sphere. Depending on the amount of targeted removal, I may side in my anti-removal suite as well, though I will likely want to keep my game fast paced because that's where my advantage will lie. It's even possible that trading out a combination of Archangels and Elspeths for Fiendslayer Paladins might be the correct route. Or maybe putting in my Sphinx's Revelations and going lategame? Sadly, I have almost zero practice against control so I'll just have to go by feel (or if you guys have recommendations). Pithing Needle is basically for Aetherling or Planeswalkers.
Another issue I have is facing hand disruption - there was one game against Mono B in which I got Thoughtseized on the first 2 turns, then Lifebane Zombie'd on the 3rd. That was absolutely dreadful and just wrecked my whole game plan; my best opening hands are 2-3 land, 2-3 creatures and 1-2 spells. I almost feel like, in that case, throwing in a couple of cheap draw spells into the sideboard (Divination?) might be a good call. Or maybe I should chalk that game up to my opponent arriving in Magical Christmas Land and not worry about it. What do you guys think?
Anyways, that's it for now guys! Thanks for reading.
Just did the weekly local Monday night event at a shop nearby and went 3-0 in rounds and 6-0 in games. The first round was against a Boros deck, but it was very thrown together (the guy even said he just put it together on the car ride over) and got mana screwed both games.
The 2nd round was against a R/G Monsters deck featuring the usual suspects - Domri, Xenagos, Polukranos, Arbor Colossus etc. In game 1, I had to mulligan to 6. I kept my board presence very low early on and put out an incredibly annoying Blind Obedience (only putting out a Soldier of the Pantheon as a chump blocker if needed) as I drew enough mana to drop a Supreme Verdict to kill off his Kalonian Hydra and mana dorks. I was able to follow that up with a pair of Frontline Medics and applied steady pressure as I whittled down his life total. At this point, I was simply top decking as Blind Obedience denied him tons of blocking opportunities and I killed him off. In game 2, I was able to Detention Sphere the one large threat he got onto the board and just won through brute force. Sadly, he was obviously not getting the best draws so I really don't think I got to see all that his deck had to offer. We've had some really intense games in the past.
After starting off with a 4-0 game record, I faced off against my "arch nemesis" so to speak, who's running a dangerous Selesnya Aggro deck with Fleecemane Lion, Fabled Hero, Giant Growth, Kalonian Hydra etc. Game 1 started with me having to mulligan to 5, but it was a nearly perfect 5 card hand. Got out a turn 1 Soldier (which is fantastic against Fleecemane haha) and kept his early aggro at bay as I drew into cards I needed. I attempted to Detention Sphere his Fleecemane before it had a chance to go Monstrous, but he had a God's Willing to protect it. Either way, I was able to stabilize and build a board presence with Boros Reckoner and Archangel of Thune and win the game from there.
Game 2 was probably the most intense game of the night. It started with me getting an incredibly good start with Soldier, Precinct Captain, an online Nykthos etc. I finally got to test out the one new card in the deck - Hundred Handed One. He came out just in time as my opponent had 2 Fleecemane Lions out on the board ready to go Monstrous and do some damage. With the safety net in place, I built up an absolutely ludicrous board presence with 12 devotion as we ended up in a board stall due to his lions and my glaring lack of a Frontline Medic. And he was unable to attack into me because Hundred Handed One was Monstrous. And with this scenario, I finally got to make the play I had been dying to do for a while now - I activated Nykthos and dropped a Sphinx's Rev on his end step for 13 life and 13 cards. That ended up being the killing blow and finished my night off with a bang.
All in all, it was exactly the kind of performance I knew the deck had in it. Even better was how every single recent change ended up playing a huge role at some point during the night. Nykthos was a fantastic mana ramp that really pushed the deck forward. In the last round especially, it allowed me to get an Archangel out with only 4 mana on the board in game 1 and enabled an absolutely devastating Sphinx's Revelation in game 2. Hundred Handed One was the perfect addition for the scenario that presented itself in game 2, acting as that important bridge between the early game and the late game for my deck.
Anyways, this weekend I may be going to a local SCG Qualifier to test my mettle against some of the best decks the local scene has to offer. My last attempt back in September (I think) didn't go so well, but my deck was also not nearly as refined and fine tuned as it is now. I'm not looking for some crazy top 8 finish (though that would be cool if I could), I just want to see if I can take a few rounds off of some of the top decks. I'm sure Mono U and Mono B will be all over the place but I have no idea how I'll fare against either of them; I feel like my setup is well rounded enough to at least put up a fight though. I'll also be playtesting Elspeth at FNM this week in preparation for the Qualifier, so we'll see what the final version of the deck looks like when the time comes. I'll keep you all posted.
I have to agree with the OP that this is one of those rare cases where traditional wisdom does not fit. Sure normally you don't want to nuke your own creatures, who does? But look closely at the list and you'll see a slew of defensive creatures. No one is winning the game against mid-range or agro with creatures like Precinct Captain, Boros Reckoner, and Soldier of the Pantheon.
What function do these cards play? Against most decks their job is to stall (with first strike and protection) until:
Verdict is an optimal play
active frontline medic (one-sided wipe)
First strike can hold the board well and force an over commit while you develop a post Supreme Verdict line of play.
Put pressure against control. Verdict against control obviously goes to the Board.
IMO, the deck does have to total synergy. Good enough is just that. If you are more prepared post wipe than your opponent than it doesn't' matter that net card advantage during the wipe was only one card.
I agree with you on pretty much all of your points. The nice thing about all of that defense you mentioned is that it also has the potential to play out almost like an aggro deck if my opponent has a slow start or if I can set up a game ending Brave the Elements. Your points on running Verdict are pretty much in line with my thoughts. I can confirm through playtesting that it is a key ingredient to this deck, and it does get sideboarded against control; I now have a pithing needle and some negates to bring in for that matchup (but I rarely get to play against control so I honestly don't know how it will fare yet).
It's funny you bring up Elspeth because I just did some preliminary playtesting with using her as my late game bomb instead of Sphinx's Rev. Only further testing will tell, but I feel like Elspeth will be easier to cast (especially with early devotion online) and she has a few key synergies. The soldier tokens can either allow me to stabilize (I'll touch on this later) or they can trigger battalion with Medic and set me up for either a verdict or her -3. It's also very likely that I have at least 1 Archangel out at that point, which means I'll be able to buff each token every time I gain life. Her -3 almost acts like another Verdict against late game bombs like DD, Obzedat (in the case they don't blink it), Stormbreath Dragon, pretty much anything in G/R devotion etc. The great thing is that I don't have a single destructible creature that enters the battlefield with more than 3 power, so I don't even need to worry about nuking my own creatures unless I've been buffing them with Ajani or Archangel (which, if I have been, probably means I'm ahead anyway and I'll just be using the +1 to bury my opponent). And of course, the ultimate acts like a ticking time bomb, much like Ajani.
Another card I have thought about trying is Hundred Handed One, though I have no idea where I'd take out for him. But there have been quite a few games where I've felt a 3/5 creature with vigilance would have been useful, and the monstrosity adds an extra (and useful) mana sink. I'm also going to start sideboarding a couple of extra Fiendslayer Paladins because I do need a card that is a bit more resistant to spot removal.
As for FNM, I ended up going 2-2. Every round I had very tough opponents and they all pretty much came down to who had the better draw and/or who made fewer mistakes. I won the first 2 rounds against Boros aggro and G/R devotion, then lost round 3 to B/W midrange due to a game 1 mulligan to 5 and a game 2 mistake; I would have won game 2 had it not been for that mistake. Round 4 was a close loss against mono red devotion/burn; both games I was literally 1 blocker away from stabilizing and turning the tides, but I was unable to get enough out in time. This was a theme that happened a couple of times that night, and is why I've been considering Elspeth. In order for me to go off on a large Sphinx's Rev, I either need to have been mana flooded or I need at least 2 island, 2 plains and a nykthos with devotion. With Elspeth, it's possible for me to cast it with 2 plains, a nykthos and some devotion (yes, this is a best-case-scenario, but the opportunities are still going to be more likely). I also like that Elspeth has an immediate effect on the board; with Revelation, I need to wait an extra turn before I can drop it. Keep in mind I'm only running 23 lands. In Magical Christmas Land, I could have a play like turn 1 plains - soldier, turn 2 plains - precinct captain, turn 3 nykthos - reckoner and turn 4 Elspeth. Though with that all said, I must say that I love this deck because there was not a single point in any game where I felt like I didn't have an answer for whatever hurdles were presented; it feels extremely well rounded, it just needs some fine tuning.
Anyway, that's enough of my rambling for now. Thanks for all the tips and help .
Ok so it's been a while since I've updated. There have not been any huge updates since the last post, but a couple of small ones. The 3 Celestial Flares were sent back to the sideboard and the Verdicts have returned. I also dropped one Detention Sphere for a 2nd Sphinx's Revelation. It's been playing great and finishing at or near the top of all the small local events I'm going to.
Throughout the games I've played, I'm noticing patterns and trying to adjust accordingly. The first thing is that drawing a Sphinx's Rev in the opening hand, or even early on sucks. But I also saw that this deck produces a LOT of white devotion very quickly. So I removed 1 Plains and 1 Island and replaced them with 2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Just did some initial playtesting tonight and it seems to work out amazingly well. I can get mana screwed with 2 Plains and 1 Nykthos and still pump stuff out, even things like Archangel once the devotion is there. It also makes Sphinx's Revelation extremely lethal, even if I'm only at 4 mana but have a few permanents out. Nykthos also gives me more space to leave mana open for things like extort and Brave the Elements (in the case I need to dodge removal). I really feel like this small change to my mana base might push this deck to further heights.
Something else I get a lot is that people will ask why I'm playing Supreme Verdict in a creature heavy deck. After a bit of thought, I actually can't find a reason not to. Here's my thought process on the subject:
- It's useful when I'm way behind on board presence. There was just a game the other night where I literally couldn't get a single creature out until turn 4 (can't remember why haha). I was taking a pounding. I dropped a Verdict then followed it up with an Archangel of Thune, at which point the tides completely turned and I won the game after establishing board presence behind Archangel.
- It has the ability to just about win the game when Frontline Medic is out on the field
- If it's a dead card in my hand, that means I'm ahead on the board and winning
I also questioned myself about the usefulness of Sphinx's Rev when running only 23 lands, but with the new Nykthos change, I feel like it's a perfect fit thanks to the tons of devotion I can put out. I plan to go to FNM tomorrow night to see just how well it does and I will update then. Without further ado, here's the full current decklist:
Well, I found out at FNM a couple of days ago that taking Supreme Verdict out was a bad idea. The deck lost a lot of its explosiveness and game-changing ability. I have now put the 3 Verdicts back in, the Celestial Flares have gone back to the sideboard, and I replaced 1 Detention Sphere for 1 more Sphinx's Revelation. I really like having some card draw if the game goes on for a while; it gives my deck much better chances of surviving and winning long games while not losing its punch in the early and midgame. Fiendslayer Paladin was a nice addition and did some really nice work whenever he came into play; definitely a keeper. We'll see how everything works out this coming Friday.
So I played the deck as it was in my previous post on Monday and was able to get some good experience with it, which has really helped me with the final few tweaks that I think will push it even closer to where I want it to be. I finished 2nd on Monday night, only losing to a net-decked Mono Black Devotion build. Before I get into anything, here's how the deck sits now:
The biggest immediate change is the replacement of Supreme Verdict with Celestial Flare. I made this adjustment for a few reasons:
- The Medic/Verdict combo was too fragile once I went up against the MBD deck, which just wrecked my combo before it could even leave my hand.
- The main time my deck loses is when there is one creature, like a monstrositied Fleecemane Lion, that I just can't deal with. I haven't had a single game in which I've been hugely outgunned as far as board presence. 4 Spheres and 3 Celestial Flares should be more than enough to maintain the advantage. I can even set up multiple blockers and drop a Brave the Elements to kill something off if necessary.
- It gets around hexproof and evasion, which is very useful.
Other changes:
-2 Seraph of the Sword
-1 Archangel of Thune
-2 Path of Bravery
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Fiendslayer Paladin
+1 Soldier of the Pantheon
+1 Boros Reckoner
+1 Sphinx's Revelation
The Paths of Bravery just felt clunky and were usually a dead card until lategame, unless I had nothing else to cast. Yeah, sometimes it was useful, but I replaced them with a Soldier of the Pantheon and a Fiendslayer Paladin, both of which maintain the lifegain subtheme while also not slowing the deck down. I actually think Fiendslayer Paladin could be quite useful since he dodges a whole boat load of removal (Doom Blade, Hero's Downfall, any red burn spell, etc). His only weakness is being a somewhat weak 2/2 body, but that can easily be pumped by Ajani or Archangel. Depending on how useful he ends up being, we may see a couple more copies end up in here.
The 2 Seraphs of the Sword were replaced by a Boros Reckoner and a Detention Sphere. Again, they were nice, but their main contribution (blocking) can be done more efficiently with Reckoner and Sphere. I can instead block and bounce damage or just remove a threat of any kind. Reckoner and Sphere are cheaper and more versatile in the context of this deck.
I had originally removed an Archangel for an Aetherling, and yes it's a great finisher in the case of a board stall, but it just didn't seem to fit the theme of the deck. And I have to wait for 7 mana (with 3 blue sources) to be able to use it properly. So I traded it out for a Sphinx's Revelation. I can get my card advantage back in the lategame (or even midgame if it's an emergency situation) and the lifegain can pull me out of a hole and/or trigger Archangel. The "finisher" slot in this deck is still up for grabs, so we'll see how it goes. Aetherling is still in the sideboard just in case. Or I can always put the 4th Archangel back in as well.
Just to sum things up:
Primary theme/objective: Steadily increase board presence with creatures that must be answered. Attack with wreckless abandon if both Heliod and Medic get set up on the field. Set up alpha strikes with Brave the Elements and/or Ajani. Use Archangel and/or Sphinx's Revelation to put the nail in the coffin.
Sub theme: Lifegain. 4 Soldiers of the Pantheon, 3 Archangels of Thune, Fiendslayer Paladin, Sphinx's Revelation, and 2 Blind Obedience make this a difficult deck to kill off.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I always enjoy looking back and seeing how any sort of "project" progresses from start to end, and this deck has been no different.
Just got back from FNM and the deck played great. Finished the night in 2nd place with a 3-1 record. My only loss was to the one person I can never seem to beat in Standard and it's basically because he's just a better player than I am at this point; I keep making simple mistakes against him that end up being the difference between winning and losing. My deck curb stomped a pair of white weenie decks in rounds 1 and 2 and nicely handled a black/green/blue deck. I was able to get off the Medic/Verdict combo on a regular basis, Brave the Elements came in handy as both a creature protector and a damage enabler and the deck just overall felt solid all the way throughout the mana curve. I'll be trying out a few small changes, but nothing major at this point. I'm quite pleased with where it's at and don't plan any major overhauls from here on out.
Yeah, a Door would be fun in casual play. And maybe have Duress in the sideboard if needed. I have a friend looking to build a Minotaur deck so hopefully this info can help
Not sure how good it would be, but Door of Destinies could be fun. Probably too mana expensive though. Doom Blade would be a must have, with Dark Betrayal in the sideboard for the inevitable game against mono black. Pit fight could be useful as well.
I agree with what you've said about threat density and being proactive. The main question here is what would I sideboard in/out in these cases? Soldier of the Pantheon often did do considerable damage against both control and mono black in much the same way you described (and there was one game where Precinct Captain just single handedly wrecked a control deck). Are there some 1-2 drops that I can fit in the sideboard? I have Fiendslayer Paladin in my sideboard that I can bring in, but what would come out? That's usually the biggest issue I face while sideboarding.
As for the Supreme Verdict subject, I've heard that from several people and have experimented with other types of removal like Celestial Flare, but the deck fell flat on its face when I did. Pretty much any other matchup - G/R Devotion, Mono Red, Boros Aggro, White Weenie etc, my deck simply wrecks them. I let them commit to the board, wipe with Verdict, lay out my board and win with relative ease. Either that or I get a fast start and my deck turns into a ticking time bomb, at which point Verdict isn't needed. I don't think there has ever been a time where, even when nuking my own creatures, the trade wasn't strongly in my favor. It's usually along the lines of...a Soldier and a Medic for Kalonian Hydra , Arbor Colossus and some mana dorks; that's a trade I'll take every day of the week. By the time I'm ready to Verdict, I already have a plan in place to take over the game and my opponent is too busy scrambling together whatever they can to recover which lets me just set up the win. Unless there's some other spell I haven't been thinking about, I feel like Verdict has to remain in this deck. The only other possible option is an overloaded Cyclonic Rift, but that doesn't really help unless I can overload it, and I'm likely dead by that point.
As for yesterday's qualifier, I unfortunately got matched up against control or mono black in almost every round. Those two matchups are certainly my worst, though I feel like my control matchup is much closer to where it needs to be than the mono black. Mono black just removes all of my threats and I can't draw more of them in time; even with Fiendslayer Paladins and 4 BtEs for protection. It's so bad that I'm considering Divination for my sideboard so I can rebound from the early onslaught of Thoughtseize, Lifebane and all of the targeted removal. Against control, Precinct Captain and Rootborn Defenses ended up being allstars but it simply isn't enough. Aetherling finished me off every time. I'm going to start running Gainsay in the sideboard in order to have some sort of response for it because the 1 Pithing Needle never showed up when I needed it (and it can be D Sphere'd).
Esper Control: 1-1 tie
I started out game 1 pretty fast, baited out several counter spells and landed lots of chip damage before dropping an Elspeth. After a few turns, an impending Elspeth ultimate with 9 tokens and a Frontline Medic on the field forced him to scoop.
In game 2, I brought in my sideboard stuff - 4 Rootborn Defenses, 1 D Sphere and 1 Pithing Needle. This game went a bit slower thanks to Jace AoT. Despite all of that, I had him down to 1 health before he drew into a Blood Baron and stabilized. With Jace, he was able to barely outrace me by 1 health per turn with Blood Baron before I was forced to make him drop a Verdict by putting my Archangel on the field (which I had been holding onto because I knew he had a verdict and I wanted 1 more land to be able to cast Archangel then follow it up with Rootborn). The killer here is that if I had been able to draw just 1 more land (I had 4-5 turns in which I could have done so), I could have drawn out the Verdict then protected my guys and win the game. But alas, it was not to be. With the board reset, I started building my board back up but he got an Aetherling and that was game over; I was unable to draw the Pithing Needle in time.
Mono Black: 2-0 loss
In game 1, we pretty much just traded blows until he was able to close the deal with Gary. Both of our life totals were very low and it really just turned into a game of "who can get the luckiest top decks." Erebos was able to shut down my Archangel's lifegain, which gave him just enough of an edge.
In game 2, I brought in my sideboard - 4 Fiendslayer Paladins, 1 D Sphere and 1 Brave the Elements. As discussed earlier, my strategy going into this matchup is to just make my creatures stick to the board and be as annoying as possible to remove. I also wanted an extra D Sphere for Erebos. The game started out in the worst way possible - I mulled to 6 and kept a 1 creature, 1 spell 4 land hand. Then he Thoughtseized me turn 1, nabbed the 1 creature I had (Fiendslayer) and Lifebane'd the Archangel I had just drawn on turn 3. Despite all that, I was able to stabilize nicely behind a couple of well timed D Spheres and drew into a pair of Archangels which began wreaking havoc before eventually getting removed. Sadly, both of the Fiendslayer Paladins I drew got removed by Thoughtseize. I did get revenge later in the game, however - I kept a land in my hand just to try to make him think I had something. The bluff worked and he Thoughtseized me once again, but this time for nothing. We both got a good laugh out of that. Either way, after another game of back and forth blows and both of us at low health, his Whip of Erebos was able to reanimate some creatures and put the final nail in the coffin. Another thing to note here is that I was unable to draw into any of the 4 Brave the Elements I had, which would have helped a ton.
Other worthy notes:
In the first round, which was against a R/G deck, I got a 2-0 win thanks to the new Elspeth/Archangel combination. In game 1 specifically, I got to see their synergy in full action. He got a Stormbreath Dragon out (which, like Mono B and Esper, was something specific I wanted to test against) which I ended up sniping with Elspeth's -3. I followed that up with Archangel, which started buffing all of Elspeth's tokens and put the game out of reach. In game 2, I pretty much just landed Elspeth and flooded the board with tokens.
So with all of that said, I'm feeling very confident going into tomorrow's qualifier. I got to play against a pair of tier 1 decks and my homebrew setup went toe to toe with both of them, even in games like the 2nd game against Mono B which started out in a worst case scenario. Putting in the 2 Elspeths and the 4th Archangel proved to be significantly positive changes and my sideboard strategies felt really good. I think the ONE thing I might try tomorrow is to sideboard in a couple of Divinations against Mono B. Just a little bit of card draw would help me a ton in that matchup with all of its hand disruption. As long as I can get my creatures to stick to the board, I feel like I have a really good chance.
-1 Hundred Handed One
-2 Sphinx's Revelations
+1 Archangel of Thune
+2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
If my current play testing is accurate, this deck has just vaulted up yet another notch. The tempo/pace feels absolutely perfect. The curve feels much smoother with Elspeth as my highest cmc finisher and she is much easier to Nykthos into. Seeing Sphinx's Rev in my opening hand was always a bit of a bummer, but I don't feel too bad about Elspeth because I know I can ramp or curve in much earlier. Also, I keep taking mental notes of my thoughts during games, mainly things like "What card do I consistently hope to top deck?" Archangel was right at the top of that list, so I decided to put the 4th one back in. The current playtesting has shown very positive results from this change. With things like Blind Obedience and Soldier of the Pantheon triggering life gain, having multiple Archangels out on the field just makes the effect absolutely devastating (and even just one, obviously, is great), especially with the threat of alpha strikes with Brave the Elements and/or Ajani always looming. This is compounded when Archangel and Elspeth are out on the field together - generating 3 soldiers per turn then buffing them.
So with that said, here's how the deck tends to play out:
Scenario 1 - I have a fast start, get a board presence, play aggro and beat my opponent into submission. When I do get a fast start, most players tend to think "Oh cool, a white weenie deck. I'll just play defense and go into the late game." That's when Archangel and Elspeth roll out as a nasty surprise.
Scenario 2 - I play defensive, let my opponent gain board presence as I chump block, D Sphere or whatever. Drop a verdict, then follow it up with whatever I may have kept in my hand. Usually by that point I have an Archangel or Elspeth to follow up with. If not that, then at least a quickly threatening combination of my 2-3cmc creatures.
With that said, I have also started to really sit down and think about my sideboard options. It's obvious that my mainboard is geared towards creature-heavy decks because that's what the local meta seems to be; lots of R/G Monsters, Boros Aggro, Selesnya Aggro etc. I feel like just about any creature heavy matchup is going to favor my deck. However, there are a few Esper Control decks and heavy removal decks floating around and most of my sideboard is tailored towards those matchups. Here's the current decklist, including an updated sideboard:
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Precinct Captain
4x Frontline Medic
4x Boros Reckoner
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
4x Archangel of Thune
Spells
3x Brave the Elements
2x Blind Obedience
3x Detention Sphere
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
13x Plains
4x Island
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Fiendslayer Paladin
4x Rootborn Defenses
2x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Detention Sphere
1x Brave the Elements
1x Pithing Needle
Ok so, my plan against heavy removal decks is to replace 4 Boros Reckoners and 1 Blind Obedience with 4 Fiendslayer Paladins and 1 Brave the Elements. Since most targeted removal is either black or red, Fiendslayer will be very difficult to remove. I will also slow down the rate at which I play creatures in order to leave mana open for Brave the Elements if needed. These changes will slow down my devotion and my strategy, but I'd rather have it slow down a little bit than get completely halted by an onslaught of Doom Blades, Hero's Downfalls and burn spells; Elspeth/Archangel give me late game reach so slowing my game down a little bit shouldn't hurt too much (especially with the added life gain triggers with Fiendslayer). If they can't take out my board presence, they will most likely lose.
Against control, I will be likely facing Supreme Verdict, lots of Planeswalkers and very few (if any) creatures. This is where I remove 3 verdicts and 2 Blind Obedience and replace them with 4 Rootborn Defenses and a Detention Sphere. Depending on the amount of targeted removal, I may side in my anti-removal suite as well, though I will likely want to keep my game fast paced because that's where my advantage will lie. It's even possible that trading out a combination of Archangels and Elspeths for Fiendslayer Paladins might be the correct route. Or maybe putting in my Sphinx's Revelations and going lategame? Sadly, I have almost zero practice against control so I'll just have to go by feel (or if you guys have recommendations). Pithing Needle is basically for Aetherling or Planeswalkers.
Another issue I have is facing hand disruption - there was one game against Mono B in which I got Thoughtseized on the first 2 turns, then Lifebane Zombie'd on the 3rd. That was absolutely dreadful and just wrecked my whole game plan; my best opening hands are 2-3 land, 2-3 creatures and 1-2 spells. I almost feel like, in that case, throwing in a couple of cheap draw spells into the sideboard (Divination?) might be a good call. Or maybe I should chalk that game up to my opponent arriving in Magical Christmas Land and not worry about it. What do you guys think?
Anyways, that's it for now guys! Thanks for reading.
The 2nd round was against a R/G Monsters deck featuring the usual suspects - Domri, Xenagos, Polukranos, Arbor Colossus etc. In game 1, I had to mulligan to 6. I kept my board presence very low early on and put out an incredibly annoying Blind Obedience (only putting out a Soldier of the Pantheon as a chump blocker if needed) as I drew enough mana to drop a Supreme Verdict to kill off his Kalonian Hydra and mana dorks. I was able to follow that up with a pair of Frontline Medics and applied steady pressure as I whittled down his life total. At this point, I was simply top decking as Blind Obedience denied him tons of blocking opportunities and I killed him off. In game 2, I was able to Detention Sphere the one large threat he got onto the board and just won through brute force. Sadly, he was obviously not getting the best draws so I really don't think I got to see all that his deck had to offer. We've had some really intense games in the past.
After starting off with a 4-0 game record, I faced off against my "arch nemesis" so to speak, who's running a dangerous Selesnya Aggro deck with Fleecemane Lion, Fabled Hero, Giant Growth, Kalonian Hydra etc. Game 1 started with me having to mulligan to 5, but it was a nearly perfect 5 card hand. Got out a turn 1 Soldier (which is fantastic against Fleecemane haha) and kept his early aggro at bay as I drew into cards I needed. I attempted to Detention Sphere his Fleecemane before it had a chance to go Monstrous, but he had a God's Willing to protect it. Either way, I was able to stabilize and build a board presence with Boros Reckoner and Archangel of Thune and win the game from there.
Game 2 was probably the most intense game of the night. It started with me getting an incredibly good start with Soldier, Precinct Captain, an online Nykthos etc. I finally got to test out the one new card in the deck - Hundred Handed One. He came out just in time as my opponent had 2 Fleecemane Lions out on the board ready to go Monstrous and do some damage. With the safety net in place, I built up an absolutely ludicrous board presence with 12 devotion as we ended up in a board stall due to his lions and my glaring lack of a Frontline Medic. And he was unable to attack into me because Hundred Handed One was Monstrous. And with this scenario, I finally got to make the play I had been dying to do for a while now - I activated Nykthos and dropped a Sphinx's Rev on his end step for 13 life and 13 cards. That ended up being the killing blow and finished my night off with a bang.
All in all, it was exactly the kind of performance I knew the deck had in it. Even better was how every single recent change ended up playing a huge role at some point during the night. Nykthos was a fantastic mana ramp that really pushed the deck forward. In the last round especially, it allowed me to get an Archangel out with only 4 mana on the board in game 1 and enabled an absolutely devastating Sphinx's Revelation in game 2. Hundred Handed One was the perfect addition for the scenario that presented itself in game 2, acting as that important bridge between the early game and the late game for my deck.
Anyways, this weekend I may be going to a local SCG Qualifier to test my mettle against some of the best decks the local scene has to offer. My last attempt back in September (I think) didn't go so well, but my deck was also not nearly as refined and fine tuned as it is now. I'm not looking for some crazy top 8 finish (though that would be cool if I could), I just want to see if I can take a few rounds off of some of the top decks. I'm sure Mono U and Mono B will be all over the place but I have no idea how I'll fare against either of them; I feel like my setup is well rounded enough to at least put up a fight though. I'll also be playtesting Elspeth at FNM this week in preparation for the Qualifier, so we'll see what the final version of the deck looks like when the time comes. I'll keep you all posted.
I agree with you on pretty much all of your points. The nice thing about all of that defense you mentioned is that it also has the potential to play out almost like an aggro deck if my opponent has a slow start or if I can set up a game ending Brave the Elements. Your points on running Verdict are pretty much in line with my thoughts. I can confirm through playtesting that it is a key ingredient to this deck, and it does get sideboarded against control; I now have a pithing needle and some negates to bring in for that matchup (but I rarely get to play against control so I honestly don't know how it will fare yet).
It's funny you bring up Elspeth because I just did some preliminary playtesting with using her as my late game bomb instead of Sphinx's Rev. Only further testing will tell, but I feel like Elspeth will be easier to cast (especially with early devotion online) and she has a few key synergies. The soldier tokens can either allow me to stabilize (I'll touch on this later) or they can trigger battalion with Medic and set me up for either a verdict or her -3. It's also very likely that I have at least 1 Archangel out at that point, which means I'll be able to buff each token every time I gain life. Her -3 almost acts like another Verdict against late game bombs like DD, Obzedat (in the case they don't blink it), Stormbreath Dragon, pretty much anything in G/R devotion etc. The great thing is that I don't have a single destructible creature that enters the battlefield with more than 3 power, so I don't even need to worry about nuking my own creatures unless I've been buffing them with Ajani or Archangel (which, if I have been, probably means I'm ahead anyway and I'll just be using the +1 to bury my opponent). And of course, the ultimate acts like a ticking time bomb, much like Ajani.
Another card I have thought about trying is Hundred Handed One, though I have no idea where I'd take out for him. But there have been quite a few games where I've felt a 3/5 creature with vigilance would have been useful, and the monstrosity adds an extra (and useful) mana sink. I'm also going to start sideboarding a couple of extra Fiendslayer Paladins because I do need a card that is a bit more resistant to spot removal.
As for FNM, I ended up going 2-2. Every round I had very tough opponents and they all pretty much came down to who had the better draw and/or who made fewer mistakes. I won the first 2 rounds against Boros aggro and G/R devotion, then lost round 3 to B/W midrange due to a game 1 mulligan to 5 and a game 2 mistake; I would have won game 2 had it not been for that mistake. Round 4 was a close loss against mono red devotion/burn; both games I was literally 1 blocker away from stabilizing and turning the tides, but I was unable to get enough out in time. This was a theme that happened a couple of times that night, and is why I've been considering Elspeth. In order for me to go off on a large Sphinx's Rev, I either need to have been mana flooded or I need at least 2 island, 2 plains and a nykthos with devotion. With Elspeth, it's possible for me to cast it with 2 plains, a nykthos and some devotion (yes, this is a best-case-scenario, but the opportunities are still going to be more likely). I also like that Elspeth has an immediate effect on the board; with Revelation, I need to wait an extra turn before I can drop it. Keep in mind I'm only running 23 lands. In Magical Christmas Land, I could have a play like turn 1 plains - soldier, turn 2 plains - precinct captain, turn 3 nykthos - reckoner and turn 4 Elspeth. Though with that all said, I must say that I love this deck because there was not a single point in any game where I felt like I didn't have an answer for whatever hurdles were presented; it feels extremely well rounded, it just needs some fine tuning.
Anyway, that's enough of my rambling for now. Thanks for all the tips and help
Throughout the games I've played, I'm noticing patterns and trying to adjust accordingly. The first thing is that drawing a Sphinx's Rev in the opening hand, or even early on sucks. But I also saw that this deck produces a LOT of white devotion very quickly. So I removed 1 Plains and 1 Island and replaced them with 2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Just did some initial playtesting tonight and it seems to work out amazingly well. I can get mana screwed with 2 Plains and 1 Nykthos and still pump stuff out, even things like Archangel once the devotion is there. It also makes Sphinx's Revelation extremely lethal, even if I'm only at 4 mana but have a few permanents out. Nykthos also gives me more space to leave mana open for things like extort and Brave the Elements (in the case I need to dodge removal). I really feel like this small change to my mana base might push this deck to further heights.
Something else I get a lot is that people will ask why I'm playing Supreme Verdict in a creature heavy deck. After a bit of thought, I actually can't find a reason not to. Here's my thought process on the subject:
- It's useful when I'm way behind on board presence. There was just a game the other night where I literally couldn't get a single creature out until turn 4 (can't remember why haha). I was taking a pounding. I dropped a Verdict then followed it up with an Archangel of Thune, at which point the tides completely turned and I won the game after establishing board presence behind Archangel.
- It has the ability to just about win the game when Frontline Medic is out on the field
- If it's a dead card in my hand, that means I'm ahead on the board and winning
I also questioned myself about the usefulness of Sphinx's Rev when running only 23 lands, but with the new Nykthos change, I feel like it's a perfect fit thanks to the tons of devotion I can put out. I plan to go to FNM tomorrow night to see just how well it does and I will update then. Without further ado, here's the full current decklist:
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Precinct Captain
4x Frontline Medic
4x Boros Reckoner
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
3x Archangel of Thune
Spells
3x Brave the Elements
2x Blind Obedience
3x Detention Sphere
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Sphinx's Revelation
13x Plains
4x Island
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Negate
4x Rootborn Defenses (will likely sub this in as a 2x)
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Brave the Elements
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Detention Sphere
3x Celestial Flare
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Precinct Captain
4x Frontline Medic
4x Boros Reckoner
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
3x Archangel of Thune
Spells
3x Brave the Elements
2x Blind Obedience
4x Detention Sphere
3x Celestial Flare
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Sphinx's Revelation
14x Plains
5x Island
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Negate
4x Rootborn Defenses (will likely sub this in as a 2x)
1x Aetherling
The biggest immediate change is the replacement of Supreme Verdict with Celestial Flare. I made this adjustment for a few reasons:
- The Medic/Verdict combo was too fragile once I went up against the MBD deck, which just wrecked my combo before it could even leave my hand.
- The main time my deck loses is when there is one creature, like a monstrositied Fleecemane Lion, that I just can't deal with. I haven't had a single game in which I've been hugely outgunned as far as board presence. 4 Spheres and 3 Celestial Flares should be more than enough to maintain the advantage. I can even set up multiple blockers and drop a Brave the Elements to kill something off if necessary.
- It gets around hexproof and evasion, which is very useful.
Other changes:
-2 Seraph of the Sword
-1 Archangel of Thune
-2 Path of Bravery
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Fiendslayer Paladin
+1 Soldier of the Pantheon
+1 Boros Reckoner
+1 Sphinx's Revelation
The Paths of Bravery just felt clunky and were usually a dead card until lategame, unless I had nothing else to cast. Yeah, sometimes it was useful, but I replaced them with a Soldier of the Pantheon and a Fiendslayer Paladin, both of which maintain the lifegain subtheme while also not slowing the deck down. I actually think Fiendslayer Paladin could be quite useful since he dodges a whole boat load of removal (Doom Blade, Hero's Downfall, any red burn spell, etc). His only weakness is being a somewhat weak 2/2 body, but that can easily be pumped by Ajani or Archangel. Depending on how useful he ends up being, we may see a couple more copies end up in here.
The 2 Seraphs of the Sword were replaced by a Boros Reckoner and a Detention Sphere. Again, they were nice, but their main contribution (blocking) can be done more efficiently with Reckoner and Sphere. I can instead block and bounce damage or just remove a threat of any kind. Reckoner and Sphere are cheaper and more versatile in the context of this deck.
I had originally removed an Archangel for an Aetherling, and yes it's a great finisher in the case of a board stall, but it just didn't seem to fit the theme of the deck. And I have to wait for 7 mana (with 3 blue sources) to be able to use it properly. So I traded it out for a Sphinx's Revelation. I can get my card advantage back in the lategame (or even midgame if it's an emergency situation) and the lifegain can pull me out of a hole and/or trigger Archangel. The "finisher" slot in this deck is still up for grabs, so we'll see how it goes. Aetherling is still in the sideboard just in case. Or I can always put the 4th Archangel back in as well.
Just to sum things up:
Primary theme/objective: Steadily increase board presence with creatures that must be answered. Attack with wreckless abandon if both Heliod and Medic get set up on the field. Set up alpha strikes with Brave the Elements and/or Ajani. Use Archangel and/or Sphinx's Revelation to put the nail in the coffin.
Sub theme: Lifegain. 4 Soldiers of the Pantheon, 3 Archangels of Thune, Fiendslayer Paladin, Sphinx's Revelation, and 2 Blind Obedience make this a difficult deck to kill off.