Haven't seen anyone mention why the vial list may have an advantage over the coco list (although I may have missed something. Apologies if I did)
- Allows you to run a lower land count
- Allows you to run a less painful manabase
- Allows you to run more rainbow lands (which can't cast coco)
- More threat-dense deck overall (so better quality of topdeck)
- Lower curve in general because you aren't over-focusing on three-drops for max value.
- Vial allows 'casting' multiple creatures a turn even when stuck on two lands.
- Less reliant on noble hierarch/mana dorks in general to make plays
- More ability to force threats through counters
- More ability to make tricky combat plays (although coco definitely allows this, you are required to hit 4 mana first which can sometimes be too late or too tricky)
Obviously coco is a powerhouse and a proven card in modern. It doesn't really need anyone backing its corner because it's an amazing tool, but I have to say. Taking a leaf out of merfolk's book could really stand up for this deck. After all, this is a fish deck.
I went over several reasons why the Vial list has some upside. However, I don't think topdecking is one of them, because Collected Company is far and away a better top deck than anything the Vial list could have (especially Vial itself, which is basically a brick after the first couple of turns). I think the biggest upsides are:
1) Inability to run colored non-creature spells (Path, CoCo, RIP, etc)
2) Has difficulty coming back when behind
3) Minimal on-board interaction/heavily reliant on occasionally irrelevant disruption (see: Merfolk matchup in top 8)
4) Awful top decking with Vial
5) Inability to dig through the deck for silver bullets / sideboard cards
So while there are some upsides to Vial, I think the general consensus is that the CoCo builds are more resilient and better able to interact with opposing strategies while keeping nearly all of the aggressiveness intact. We didn't see any games from the Vial list (at least that I'm aware of) where it was getting knocked around with a flurry of removal spells or anything like that; he constantly avoided bad matchups. That deck is going to struggle greatly with getting grinded out. I don't even think we saw the deck face a sweeper. I personally think that once the Bant Black CoCo decks can reliably run Mantis Rider, the Vial list won't be nearly as enticing.
Dark Confidant has been a trap card in many cases with these builds. I ran him for a while and found myself dying to him far more often than any opponent did. Without having some built in lifegain, he's a major liability. You end up having to race your opponent and your own Bob.
Glad to see Humans doing well! I've been lurking for a while, playing the deck in paper and it's good to have some results to point to now (even if I think Collected Company is way better than Aether Vial most of the time). I've been running a list similar to kingcars from the previous page and I'd like to hear any thoughts on the list, and I have a few specific questions as well.
I see Arashin Cleric in a lot of sideboards; is that just for the Burn match up or are there other times it comes in? I haven't played the match up much but I'd think you could either beat them without the extra help, or if you really want an anti-Burn card you'd play Auriok Champion instead.
Yeah, Arashin Cleric is mainly for burn, but also has utility against under low slung aggro decks like Goblins and Kird Ape style decks. The reason I personally use it over Auriok Champion is because it's easier to cast and doesn't require specific conditions to do what it needs to do. Champion needs to be played early and have creatures to follow it up. Cleric gives immediate value no matter when it's drawn, which can be huge when top decking against burn. We have enough good matchups that we can be very specific about our sideboard plans for bad matchups.
@kingcars, how have you liked the Arid Mesa manabase? I thought I'd rather fetch Forest for mana dorks and/or CoCo against land hate but the deck does seem to be largely white-based.
I unfortunately have not had the chance to test it yet. I'm hoping to get around to it this week and will post back with results/thoughts.
Do you board in Rest in Peace vs. Grixis Shadow? I've been happy with it when running more controlling archetypes but I can see it being too slow for Humans to want it against them.
I don't. I like to keep the deck threat-dense. We generally don't care that much about the delve creatures, and the occasional Snapcaster value isn't much of a concern when we're overwhelming their board.
Look at it this way - the Rest in Peace you played could have instead been a creature they needed to answer or an answer to one of their creatures, and could have further grown your other humans or been an extra lord target. The fact that they might get an extra Fatal Push off a Snapcaster Mage doesn't really make a big difference in many situations when the pressure starts to snowball.
Are there any realistic options for enchantment hate? It's probably not necessary in the current metagame, but I ran into some prison/control deck running main deck Ghostly Prisons the other day and the match up was virtually unwinnable.
Thoughts on Fiend Hunter vs. Banisher Priest (in the sideboard)? The effects are virtually identical in most lists so I guess it's determined by how much you want to turn them sideways.
Fiend Hunter is generally preferred due to its toughness. They're good effects to have, but aren't very necessary when running Paths and Reflector Mages. However, if matchups like Merfolk end up being more of a problem, we may want to side 1 or 2.
What do people think of Harsh Mentor? I seriously doubt it's worth it in the main deck (though maybe a bear that does incidental damage could find a place in sufficiently aggressive lists) but it seems pretty good as a sideboard card for Lantern, Displacer Taxes, and possibly Eldrazi Tron.
I think Harsh Mentor is just too narrow right now. It could be great in some matchups, but there are usually better sideboard options that cover more area.
Yeah, I definitely think there was a combination of avoiding bad matchups and having just enough luck and of course skill to navigate the few difficult ones he did face.
I still don't see the value of Stony Silence. Affinity is easily beatable without it and we most certainly don't want to slow ourselves down against Eldrazi Tron. I highly recommend people compare Mullen's games against Eldrazi Tron to the one last week where the Humans player sided into Stony and slowed himself way down with it and lost. It's an absolutely unnecessary card for Humans lists, imo. Rest in Peace is generally fine, because the decks you bring it in against have a really difficult time functioning with it on the battlefield (note: referring to decks like Dredge and Living End. I wouldn't recommend it against decks that are only situationally affected by it). Stony Silence can very often be a do-nothing card, even in its best matchups, where the opponent just ignores and kills you anyway.
Yeah, I think he's mainly just the first player to have finally capitalized on what we've known since we started testing Kitesail Freebooter - Humans is a real deck now. He also managed to avoid a lot of tough matchups. I'm not convinced that Aether Vial is the optimal build, but it certainly has its merits. I think we're right there with the Bant Black shell and the current work being done on the 5C Collected Company shell. I haven't had much time the last several days, but I've had it on my to-do list to try out the 5 Color CoCo list with headminerve's mana base suggestion, which would look like this:
Yeah, like I said earlier, it looks like he decided to take the power level of the 5C shell and just do away with the stuff that made the mana difficult by cutting the colored spells and running Aether Vial instead. I guess this is the bittersweet day we've seen coming for a little while now; our secret is out. I'm not looking forward to playing mirrors on MTGO cause I hate mirrors . I'm also hoping that people take some time to realize that Torpor Orb effects would be good against us . Man...after doing so well at FNM and seeing Humans crush this weekend, I'm increasingly sad that I couldn't make it to Charlotte last weekend. I really feel like the deck could've had a big performance there.
I've been perusing the humans thread for a little while now cuz I love the idea and tribal theme behind this decktype and being 4 and 5 colours is so rad. Really curious to see how this Mullens list does again today because it's right up my alley and I'm so tempted to start acquiring the pieces.
Welcome to the club! Feel free to browse the pages and see which version you like the most. There are plenty to choose from!
So Mullens is 13 or 14-0 atm. can we start considering his list as tier 1 now?:D
On the other hand, how does humans look at Burn matchup ?(if i noticed correctly he doesnt have any protection from red other than meddling/this new 2 drop that exiles etc.
It usually takes more than 1 SCG performance to break into T1. In modern, just about any reasonably competitive deck can go on a big run, which is what makes the format so great. Repetitive big performances is what makes a deck T1. As for his burn matchup, Thalia 1.0 helps but I don't think he has any lifegain. Luckily, burn hasn't been doing great this weekend, so he's seemingly been able to dodge it.
Yeah I've been watching his games and it's performing well. His list seems to address the conundrum we were trying to solve with how to create a 5 color manabase that is consistent. He did so by cutting the colored spells and going pure rainbow creature lands. Very interesting.
I think the Vial list is cool because you can finally run Thalia 1.0 without it hurting much. However, the deck loses a lot of its ability to interact along with its ability to recover from being grinded out. I do think that Vial is better with something like Necromancer which is a great trick to have against sweepers and removal. Being able to draw step a Freebooter seems nice too. My personal opinion is that I'd rather have CoCo (much better for card advantage, great top deck, great in multiples etc), but I can see the merits of a Vial build. I do think the success of this 5C build further validates the 4c and 5c shells we've been working on, despite it having some differences. The card interactions are all the same and the power of these cards is on full display.
i am really glad my suggestions of unclaimed territory and kitesail freebooter+meddling mage (but not the eldrazi displacer, lol!) was well received, and even improved by some of you! good job guys! the deck seems really fun and extremely competitive! I love its proactivity!
Not to be a party pooper, but the idea was floating around a couple of weeks before you joined the thread
The main test for [Kitesail Freebooter] is to figure out whether opponents will target that guy instead of the other faster clocks. Champ often eats Push, our 3-drops are the primary targets for spot removal then. Meddling Mage is also a maindeckable card...
Haha! Meddling Mage is quite hilarious alongside Freebooter (and Reflector Mage). Freebooter is most definitely a card worth testing since it fills a spot in the curve that the bant black deck desperately needed and may provide enough disruption to make up for its slower clock when compared to the bant red lists. It also provides evasion, which is something I was searching for in my previous testing of the bant black deck, as I have posted about on here. It's an exciting card, but it's not a for sure slam dunk. Too early to tell. I do think that the bant black deck will most certainly go in an almost hatebears-esque direction, using stuff like Freebooter, Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage and whichever Thalia(s) you want to run.
Either way, I think the fact that so many of us were able to merge our ideas and generally agree on a shell after so many pages of back and forth means quite a bit.
Also, has anyone been watching SCG Cinci? there's a 5 color Ancient Ziggurat Humans deck running Aether Vial. Reminds me a lot of the original 5 color list from last year with the obvious new improvements like Freebooter and Unclaimed Territory. No Paths or CoCo or anything of the sort. One thing to note is with only Vial as a non-creature spell, Thalia 1.0 is much better here.
Hey guys, just wanted to throw a quick "tournament" report in here while it's fresh on my mind. I just got back from a local FNM, which was my first time playing paper magic in about a year. It was a small turnout, but all of my opponents ended up being familiar local grinders who always run tiered decks, so there definitely wasn't a shortage of competition. The list I ran is the same list I've been championing in MTGO:
Match 1 - Grixis Control - WIN 2-0
-----------------------------------------------
Game 1 started off with a bang with me on the play. T1 Champion of the Parish into T2 Champion of the Parish / Noble Hierarch into T3 Anafenza, the Foremost. So yeah, the opponent got run over. The downside is that I didn't get any real info about what version of Grixis he was running, so I played it safe with -2 Path to Exile +2 Sin Collector as the sideboard plan (I assumed it was the control variant, but wasn't 100% certain). Game 2 was a bit slower, me on the draw. No T1 play. My opponent clearly represents Terminate on T2 so I play Meddling Mage naming it. I start building a board presence with Thalia's Lieutenant and Thalia, Heretic Cathar (he plays a Tasigur), so by the time he was able to draw out from under the Meddling Mage, I had done enough damage and had enough on-board that I was able to squeak through the last bit of damage before he could pull ahead with his Tasigur, the Golden Fang and card advantage. A timely Sin Collector in the midgame was able to nab a Cryptic Command as well, which was one of his few outs later in the game. G2 was a good example of what a good read with Meddling Mage can do.
Match 2 - Sultai Death's Shadow - WIN 2-0
-----------------------------------------------
I was on the draw in Game 1. Kept a hand with some nice stuff like Noble, Lieutenant and Freebooter. My opponent snipes Freebooter with an early Inquisition of Kozilek. My next couple of turns consist of playing Meddling Mage on Fatal Push (which once again ended up being a good read) and Thalia's Lieutenant. My opponent plays a Tarmogoyf and suits it up with a fun-of Rancor while he's stuck on 2-3 lands. After a few turns of waiting on a Path to Exile or Reflector Mage, I cast a Thalia, Heretic Cathar that I drew, which made my Lieutenant big enough to at least trade with the monstrous 6/5 Goyf. I attack and he accepts the trade. Naturally, I draw Reflector Mage the following turn. Either way, that same turn Thalia, Heretic Cathar knocked him down to 2 life in a very interesting sequence where my opponent was unable to kill it with Snapcaster Mage/Fatal Push due to the fact that Snap had to enter tapped and couldn't trigger revolt. I play Reflector Mage post combat, awkwardly bouncing his Snapcaster, but he was still stuck on 3 mana and couldn't actually utilize it. We then went onto game 2, where I once again named Fatal Push with Meddling Mage, which helped open the door for me to produce more threats than he had answers (thanks to Freebooter later on as well) and cruise to victory. He did have a Death's Shadow towards the end, but Freebooter was pinging him in the air for 3 damage a turn. and his hand was just useless disruption spells.
At this point, I was feeling great! Undefeated in both matches and all 4 games. Onto the finale...
Match 3 - Affinity - WIN 2-1
------------------------------------------------
I was on the draw once again for Game 1. I knew my opponent was on Affinity from hearing about the deck earlier. My opening hand was along the lines of Noble/Freebooter/Lieutenant/Path, which seemed quite reasonable. Unfortunately, he was able to pretty much dump his hand before Freebooter came out on T2, but that's to be expected sometimes. I was holding onto the path like it was pure gold, especially when my opponent was able to put out a pair of Arcbound Ravagers. We played a bit of a game of chicken, trying to see who would flinch first as we traded some damage back and forth. It all changed when I drew a Collected Company and was able to force his hand with double Reflector Mage targeting both Ravagers along with the Path to Exile sitting in my hand. He responds by putting a bunch of counters on a Vault Skirge, which I Path EOT. He was unable to recover as I was swinging for immense amounts of damage by that point. Game 2, I kept a slow hand on the draw and died to a suited up Inkmoth Nexus. I knew better than to keep that hand, so that was definitely on me. In game 3, we both mulled to 6 and I was on the play. I kept a hand with 2 lands, Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage and Path to Exile. I see a 3rd land with my scry and happily keep it on top. This time it was my turn to be the aggro deck, so I started the beatdowns and had to do a little bit of early racing against a Vault Skirge before the pressure + Reflector Mage + Path to Exile + 2nd Path to Exile that I later drew proved to be too much. I main phased my final Path to Exile on his large Vault Skirge because I felt at that point, the main way I could lose was by getting too fancy and letting my Path get hit with a Stubborn Denial. After the game, my opponent confirmed that he did indeed have a Denial in hand. We played a fun match afterwards with him playing a Jeskai Control deck and the ol' Humans punched right through that as well.
When all was said and done, I was incredibly happy with how the deck ran. It constantly attacked my opponents from multiple angles and taxed their draw steps, their mana, their blocks, you name it. I skipped over a few smaller details, like how Mayor of Avabruck was putting in some great work in multiple games tonight (had quite a few "hey can I read what his backside does? Oh...I should probably kill that) and how Anafenza, the Foremost was doing a great job of punching through damage and ending games, but I just wanted to hit the main points. I was also pleased with my own performance; I don't recall any noticeable punts, even with Meddling Mage and I was able to stay on top of all the various triggers/abilities like Mayor, Anafenza (both the counter and the exile effect) and the fact that Reflector Mage delays the re-casting of the card for a turn. The deck ran great, I played great and I was able to head home with a nice $40 in my wallet. Not a bad way to shake off the rust!
I miss Kessig Wolf Run though, maybe it has to force its slot instead of the 7th fetchland. I know this manabase can fairly support 5 colors anyway. The idea is there's no point playing only 4C because of the mana if 5C is stronger.
Looks solid. If we can get it as stable as the 4C mana base, then yeah, 5C would be the way to go. I think that's easier said than done, but this looks promising. I'll test it out once I get my hands on some Arid Mesas on MTGO. Kessig Wolf Run is extremely risky in such a color-heavy deck and really doesn't seem necessary when we're running 8 flyers.
My feedback on Anafenza, the Foremost in a list with already 4 Mantis is that she doesn't represent a very astonishing option. I have even results with Sunscourge Champion or Lyev Skyknight for example (it's completely MU dependant), and I assume Knight of the Reliquary or Eternal Witness can have their good MUs as well. It means that at this point, she's a good filler but I hope for a future new 3-drop staple, which woud be good in any MU. Otherwise choosing the extra 3-drops is kind of a neverending story.
I would argue that a 4/4 for 3 with relevant upside will always be good regardless of matchup whereas those other creatures you listed are much more situational and matchup dependent. But I do agree that access to Mantis Rider reduces the attractiveness of Anafenza.
Kitesail Freebooter is a staple. It steals so many G1s against so many decks, it strips most of the cards we lose to. The card is unbelievably well designed for the archetype without being flashy.
I think it is hard to say if lieutenant turn two is the right play here. I drew additional humans afterwards and I think it is better to play a lieutenant later on a board full of humans (which I did in this game).
It's debatable, but I often see people getting caught up with the need to get max value out of Lieutenant's ETB effect. I have found that, worst case scenario, a 2 mana Champion of the Parish is still good. Against decks that run Anger of the Gods, it's important to get at least 1 creature out of range. In other scenarios, it is often better to play Lieutenant before other humans that are less likely to attack (dorks, mayor, sometimes MM).
In regards to naming with Meddling Mage, I think that you are correct about searing blaze but not about lightning bolt. Lightning Helix helps them in a race like against burn much more than lightning bolt. That was my reasoning. I still think that in this situation I was forced to play Meddling mage because I assumed that I have to race faster which I think is more likely if I play the lieutenant on a board full of creatures.
That's fair, but I will say that I have never tried to race burn. In my experience, it's all about stabilizing then quickly turning the corner. We're very much the control deck in the matchup.
Btw. Do you miss your Sin collectors main? Two weeks ago I went 5-0 with your list playing 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 3 Sin Collector, 2 Anafenza.
So far I haven't. I hated when it was a dead card in the main. Thalia helps in a lot of matchups and the 4th Freebooter has been fantastic (and offsets some of the loss of the mainboard Collectors).
Interesting. In some of my more recent testing, Meddling Mage has gotten even better for me. There were several recent games I was able to blow wide open by keeping the opponent off a sweeper for an extra turn or naming a card I saw with Freebooter. I think MM is a very tricky card to play, but is great when utilized to its potential. I often find myself in situations where I have my opponent down to just 1 or maybe 2 outs and actually wishing I had more MMs to lock them out of such draws. You mentioned in your tournament report that you named Lightning Helix after seeing a basic mountain from your opponent, but no T1 play and no further info. I think that both playing Meddling Mage when there was another card you could play (Thalia's Lieutenant) and naming Lightning Helix were mistakes. Here's why:
- Meddling Mage is best when you have information, so it's generally good practice to play it as late as possible when you know what you're wanting to hit at that specific point in the game. Lieutenant was the play to make on that turn, IMO. I know it's a feel-bad to play her early, but it's often not as bad as you'd think. She ends up growing quick and getting out of control, just like Champ. Next turn you would have seen their T2 play and been able to make a much more informed decision with MM.
- Disregarding the first point, lets say the opponent was on burn and you had no other play. Lightning Helix was probably one of the worst cards to name. It is far more inefficient than both Lightning Bolt and Searing Blaze, either of which would have been better choices. I usually choose Searing Blaze because I'm totally ok with them wasting a burn spell on a creature that doesn't also hit me at the same time. If you don't choose Blaza and they kill your MM with Blaze, they haven't lost anything. If you name Blaze and they have to use a bolt or helix or whatever on it, they've lost the face damage of the card they used to kill it.
My point being, Meddling Mage is a tricky card because you have to know what cards to name in what matchups. I can see why someone would dislike the card, but I think playing it optimally makes it a very powerful card. Just look back at my original Bant Black test videos. Multiple times I could have made the card much more powerful just by making better decisions with it (two specific instances were when I didn't realize I could lock out the 2-3 Lingering Souls in the op's graveyard and another game where I should have assumed that the UR deck was on Storm). There were other times in those videos where I was able to lock out key cards from the opponent, like Oketra's Monument and Hollow One (yes, those are fringe decks, but the general idea applies to any matchup).
I've tried Tireless Tracker in the past and found him to be too slow and too situational (need to play early + draw lands + have mana that isn't already being utilized); I landed on Thalia, Heretic Cathar in that slot instead thanks to her ability to choke opponents on mana and blockers, which the deck is more in the market for. Thalia is much better against Tron decks, decks that clog the ground/produce chump blockers, hasty creature combos etc, all of which we need help fighting. Her first strike also makes her hard to block on her own. Tracker is great in grindy midrange / control matchups which we already have plenty of game against. We're looking to get under most decks, not grind them out, so Thalia is my preference there.
What are your thoughts on 5c with freebooter and mantis rider?
I honestly haven't tested it a bunch, but my current impression is that the marginal improvement isn't worth the extra mana restriction. Testing it helped me find ways to improve the Bant Black list, which to me feels like the more solid deck now that those improvements have been made. I plan to test more when I have some time, but currently I find myself really enjoying the Bant Black list. The 5C list is definitely more powerful, but I'm just on the fence about adding even more complexity to the mana. It works, it's just tough.
I went over several reasons why the Vial list has some upside. However, I don't think topdecking is one of them, because Collected Company is far and away a better top deck than anything the Vial list could have (especially Vial itself, which is basically a brick after the first couple of turns). I think the biggest upsides are:
1) Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is almost purely a 1-sided effect
2) Xathrid Necromancer is a much better surprise trick, like in the face of a sweeper
3) Kitesail Freebooter on opponent's draw step
4) Ability to run 5 colors (Mantis Rider!!) without much pain
However, there are downsides:
1) Inability to run colored non-creature spells (Path, CoCo, RIP, etc)
2) Has difficulty coming back when behind
3) Minimal on-board interaction/heavily reliant on occasionally irrelevant disruption (see: Merfolk matchup in top 8)
4) Awful top decking with Vial
5) Inability to dig through the deck for silver bullets / sideboard cards
So while there are some upsides to Vial, I think the general consensus is that the CoCo builds are more resilient and better able to interact with opposing strategies while keeping nearly all of the aggressiveness intact. We didn't see any games from the Vial list (at least that I'm aware of) where it was getting knocked around with a flurry of removal spells or anything like that; he constantly avoided bad matchups. That deck is going to struggle greatly with getting grinded out. I don't even think we saw the deck face a sweeper. I personally think that once the Bant Black CoCo decks can reliably run Mantis Rider, the Vial list won't be nearly as enticing.
Welcome to the party! Nice list. How has the 5C setup been working out for you?
Headminerve answered your questions well, but I'll add in my two cents as well.
Yeah, Arashin Cleric is mainly for burn, but also has utility against under low slung aggro decks like Goblins and Kird Ape style decks. The reason I personally use it over Auriok Champion is because it's easier to cast and doesn't require specific conditions to do what it needs to do. Champion needs to be played early and have creatures to follow it up. Cleric gives immediate value no matter when it's drawn, which can be huge when top decking against burn. We have enough good matchups that we can be very specific about our sideboard plans for bad matchups.
I unfortunately have not had the chance to test it yet. I'm hoping to get around to it this week and will post back with results/thoughts.
I don't. I like to keep the deck threat-dense. We generally don't care that much about the delve creatures, and the occasional Snapcaster value isn't much of a concern when we're overwhelming their board.
Look at it this way - the Rest in Peace you played could have instead been a creature they needed to answer or an answer to one of their creatures, and could have further grown your other humans or been an extra lord target. The fact that they might get an extra Fatal Push off a Snapcaster Mage doesn't really make a big difference in many situations when the pressure starts to snowball.
Kitesail Freebooter and Meddling Mage are the primary plan for such matchups, but if you want enchantment specific hate, War Priest of Thune has done a lot of work for me in the past.
Fiend Hunter is generally preferred due to its toughness. They're good effects to have, but aren't very necessary when running Paths and Reflector Mages. However, if matchups like Merfolk end up being more of a problem, we may want to side 1 or 2.
I think Harsh Mentor is just too narrow right now. It could be great in some matchups, but there are usually better sideboard options that cover more area.
I still don't see the value of Stony Silence. Affinity is easily beatable without it and we most certainly don't want to slow ourselves down against Eldrazi Tron. I highly recommend people compare Mullen's games against Eldrazi Tron to the one last week where the Humans player sided into Stony and slowed himself way down with it and lost. It's an absolutely unnecessary card for Humans lists, imo. Rest in Peace is generally fine, because the decks you bring it in against have a really difficult time functioning with it on the battlefield (note: referring to decks like Dredge and Living End. I wouldn't recommend it against decks that are only situationally affected by it). Stony Silence can very often be a do-nothing card, even in its best matchups, where the opponent just ignores and kills you anyway.
CoCo lists should be doing this as well. I've been advocating for creature-heavy sideboards from the beginning.
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
EDIT: The Primer has been updated with new information and updated decklists
Welcome to the club! Feel free to browse the pages and see which version you like the most. There are plenty to choose from!
It usually takes more than 1 SCG performance to break into T1. In modern, just about any reasonably competitive deck can go on a big run, which is what makes the format so great. Repetitive big performances is what makes a deck T1. As for his burn matchup, Thalia 1.0 helps but I don't think he has any lifegain. Luckily, burn hasn't been doing great this weekend, so he's seemingly been able to dodge it.
I think the Vial list is cool because you can finally run Thalia 1.0 without it hurting much. However, the deck loses a lot of its ability to interact along with its ability to recover from being grinded out. I do think that Vial is better with something like Necromancer which is a great trick to have against sweepers and removal. Being able to draw step a Freebooter seems nice too. My personal opinion is that I'd rather have CoCo (much better for card advantage, great top deck, great in multiples etc), but I can see the merits of a Vial build. I do think the success of this 5C build further validates the 4c and 5c shells we've been working on, despite it having some differences. The card interactions are all the same and the power of these cards is on full display.
Not to be a party pooper, but the idea was floating around a couple of weeks before you joined the thread
Either way, I think the fact that so many of us were able to merge our ideas and generally agree on a shell after so many pages of back and forth means quite a bit.
Also, has anyone been watching SCG Cinci? there's a 5 color Ancient Ziggurat Humans deck running Aether Vial. Reminds me a lot of the original 5 color list from last year with the obvious new improvements like Freebooter and Unclaimed Territory. No Paths or CoCo or anything of the sort. One thing to note is with only Vial as a non-creature spell, Thalia 1.0 is much better here.
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
3 Sin Collector
1 Sacred Foundry
Without further ado, here's the rundown:
Match 1 - Grixis Control - WIN 2-0
-----------------------------------------------
Game 1 started off with a bang with me on the play. T1 Champion of the Parish into T2 Champion of the Parish / Noble Hierarch into T3 Anafenza, the Foremost. So yeah, the opponent got run over. The downside is that I didn't get any real info about what version of Grixis he was running, so I played it safe with -2 Path to Exile +2 Sin Collector as the sideboard plan (I assumed it was the control variant, but wasn't 100% certain). Game 2 was a bit slower, me on the draw. No T1 play. My opponent clearly represents Terminate on T2 so I play Meddling Mage naming it. I start building a board presence with Thalia's Lieutenant and Thalia, Heretic Cathar (he plays a Tasigur), so by the time he was able to draw out from under the Meddling Mage, I had done enough damage and had enough on-board that I was able to squeak through the last bit of damage before he could pull ahead with his Tasigur, the Golden Fang and card advantage. A timely Sin Collector in the midgame was able to nab a Cryptic Command as well, which was one of his few outs later in the game. G2 was a good example of what a good read with Meddling Mage can do.
Match 2 - Sultai Death's Shadow - WIN 2-0
-----------------------------------------------
I was on the draw in Game 1. Kept a hand with some nice stuff like Noble, Lieutenant and Freebooter. My opponent snipes Freebooter with an early Inquisition of Kozilek. My next couple of turns consist of playing Meddling Mage on Fatal Push (which once again ended up being a good read) and Thalia's Lieutenant. My opponent plays a Tarmogoyf and suits it up with a fun-of Rancor while he's stuck on 2-3 lands. After a few turns of waiting on a Path to Exile or Reflector Mage, I cast a Thalia, Heretic Cathar that I drew, which made my Lieutenant big enough to at least trade with the monstrous 6/5 Goyf. I attack and he accepts the trade. Naturally, I draw Reflector Mage the following turn. Either way, that same turn Thalia, Heretic Cathar knocked him down to 2 life in a very interesting sequence where my opponent was unable to kill it with Snapcaster Mage/Fatal Push due to the fact that Snap had to enter tapped and couldn't trigger revolt. I play Reflector Mage post combat, awkwardly bouncing his Snapcaster, but he was still stuck on 3 mana and couldn't actually utilize it. We then went onto game 2, where I once again named Fatal Push with Meddling Mage, which helped open the door for me to produce more threats than he had answers (thanks to Freebooter later on as well) and cruise to victory. He did have a Death's Shadow towards the end, but Freebooter was pinging him in the air for 3 damage a turn. and his hand was just useless disruption spells.
At this point, I was feeling great! Undefeated in both matches and all 4 games. Onto the finale...
Match 3 - Affinity - WIN 2-1
------------------------------------------------
I was on the draw once again for Game 1. I knew my opponent was on Affinity from hearing about the deck earlier. My opening hand was along the lines of Noble/Freebooter/Lieutenant/Path, which seemed quite reasonable. Unfortunately, he was able to pretty much dump his hand before Freebooter came out on T2, but that's to be expected sometimes. I was holding onto the path like it was pure gold, especially when my opponent was able to put out a pair of Arcbound Ravagers. We played a bit of a game of chicken, trying to see who would flinch first as we traded some damage back and forth. It all changed when I drew a Collected Company and was able to force his hand with double Reflector Mage targeting both Ravagers along with the Path to Exile sitting in my hand. He responds by putting a bunch of counters on a Vault Skirge, which I Path EOT. He was unable to recover as I was swinging for immense amounts of damage by that point. Game 2, I kept a slow hand on the draw and died to a suited up Inkmoth Nexus. I knew better than to keep that hand, so that was definitely on me. In game 3, we both mulled to 6 and I was on the play. I kept a hand with 2 lands, Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage and Path to Exile. I see a 3rd land with my scry and happily keep it on top. This time it was my turn to be the aggro deck, so I started the beatdowns and had to do a little bit of early racing against a Vault Skirge before the pressure + Reflector Mage + Path to Exile + 2nd Path to Exile that I later drew proved to be too much. I main phased my final Path to Exile on his large Vault Skirge because I felt at that point, the main way I could lose was by getting too fancy and letting my Path get hit with a Stubborn Denial. After the game, my opponent confirmed that he did indeed have a Denial in hand. We played a fun match afterwards with him playing a Jeskai Control deck and the ol' Humans punched right through that as well.
When all was said and done, I was incredibly happy with how the deck ran. It constantly attacked my opponents from multiple angles and taxed their draw steps, their mana, their blocks, you name it. I skipped over a few smaller details, like how Mayor of Avabruck was putting in some great work in multiple games tonight (had quite a few "hey can I read what his backside does? Oh...I should probably kill that) and how Anafenza, the Foremost was doing a great job of punching through damage and ending games, but I just wanted to hit the main points. I was also pleased with my own performance; I don't recall any noticeable punts, even with Meddling Mage and I was able to stay on top of all the various triggers/abilities like Mayor, Anafenza (both the counter and the exile effect) and the fact that Reflector Mage delays the re-casting of the card for a turn. The deck ran great, I played great and I was able to head home with a nice $40 in my wallet. Not a bad way to shake off the rust!
Looks solid. If we can get it as stable as the 4C mana base, then yeah, 5C would be the way to go. I think that's easier said than done, but this looks promising. I'll test it out once I get my hands on some Arid Mesas on MTGO. Kessig Wolf Run is extremely risky in such a color-heavy deck and really doesn't seem necessary when we're running 8 flyers.
I would argue that a 4/4 for 3 with relevant upside will always be good regardless of matchup whereas those other creatures you listed are much more situational and matchup dependent. But I do agree that access to Mantis Rider reduces the attractiveness of Anafenza.
Indeed. It's precisely the 2 drop we needed.
It's debatable, but I often see people getting caught up with the need to get max value out of Lieutenant's ETB effect. I have found that, worst case scenario, a 2 mana Champion of the Parish is still good. Against decks that run Anger of the Gods, it's important to get at least 1 creature out of range. In other scenarios, it is often better to play Lieutenant before other humans that are less likely to attack (dorks, mayor, sometimes MM).
That's fair, but I will say that I have never tried to race burn. In my experience, it's all about stabilizing then quickly turning the corner. We're very much the control deck in the matchup.
So far I haven't. I hated when it was a dead card in the main. Thalia helps in a lot of matchups and the 4th Freebooter has been fantastic (and offsets some of the loss of the mainboard Collectors).
- Meddling Mage is best when you have information, so it's generally good practice to play it as late as possible when you know what you're wanting to hit at that specific point in the game. Lieutenant was the play to make on that turn, IMO. I know it's a feel-bad to play her early, but it's often not as bad as you'd think. She ends up growing quick and getting out of control, just like Champ. Next turn you would have seen their T2 play and been able to make a much more informed decision with MM.
- Disregarding the first point, lets say the opponent was on burn and you had no other play. Lightning Helix was probably one of the worst cards to name. It is far more inefficient than both Lightning Bolt and Searing Blaze, either of which would have been better choices. I usually choose Searing Blaze because I'm totally ok with them wasting a burn spell on a creature that doesn't also hit me at the same time. If you don't choose Blaza and they kill your MM with Blaze, they haven't lost anything. If you name Blaze and they have to use a bolt or helix or whatever on it, they've lost the face damage of the card they used to kill it.
My point being, Meddling Mage is a tricky card because you have to know what cards to name in what matchups. I can see why someone would dislike the card, but I think playing it optimally makes it a very powerful card. Just look back at my original Bant Black test videos. Multiple times I could have made the card much more powerful just by making better decisions with it (two specific instances were when I didn't realize I could lock out the 2-3 Lingering Souls in the op's graveyard and another game where I should have assumed that the UR deck was on Storm). There were other times in those videos where I was able to lock out key cards from the opponent, like Oketra's Monument and Hollow One (yes, those are fringe decks, but the general idea applies to any matchup).
Anyways, MM aside, if you really want to grind people out, you could also look at Eternal Witness, Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. I've had some success with grindier builds using these cards.
I've tried Tireless Tracker in the past and found him to be too slow and too situational (need to play early + draw lands + have mana that isn't already being utilized); I landed on Thalia, Heretic Cathar in that slot instead thanks to her ability to choke opponents on mana and blockers, which the deck is more in the market for. Thalia is much better against Tron decks, decks that clog the ground/produce chump blockers, hasty creature combos etc, all of which we need help fighting. Her first strike also makes her hard to block on her own. Tracker is great in grindy midrange / control matchups which we already have plenty of game against. We're looking to get under most decks, not grind them out, so Thalia is my preference there.
I honestly haven't tested it a bunch, but my current impression is that the marginal improvement isn't worth the extra mana restriction. Testing it helped me find ways to improve the Bant Black list, which to me feels like the more solid deck now that those improvements have been made. I plan to test more when I have some time, but currently I find myself really enjoying the Bant Black list. The 5C list is definitely more powerful, but I'm just on the fence about adding even more complexity to the mana. It works, it's just tough.