I just found the other bouncers are too slow. Honestly you're better off maybe playing an Eladamri's Call to up your Temur Sabertooth chances.
I've added a section the the primer, "Meta Changes", which hopefully gives a guide to possible changes. Shows a few of the "flexible" slots.[/quote]
Thanks for the updates! Good stuff. I was gold fishing the deck last night and can't wait to play it in a real game. I do plan on running Eladamri's Call as a way to fetch Temur Sabertooth or the other pieces I need in that moment. Tutoring never really seems like a bad thing.
Thanks for the feedback. I think I will take out the one shot effects for now like Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Silence is bit harder to cut but, we will see how relevant it feels. After getting a foil, I'm very eager to try out Selvala, Heart of the Wilds but, she was another card I was looking at as kind of a flex spot. What do you think?
As far as City of Solitude goes, I agree that it is a bit harder to tutor for but, that was one of the reason I like it. It is tutorable with things like enlightened tutor, sterling grove or Academy Rector to protect us on a combo turn. I'll let you know how it works out.
I would keep the Silence as a staple, I've used it on opponents combo turns to shut them down as well, so it proactive as well as defensive.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds has been excellent in games where you don't have a mana doubler. She will allow you to play Zacama without the mana doublers, but still potentially combo off.
I really wanted to get even small value from Regal Force, but if you use Eldritch Evolution or Natural Order to get it, you've already sacrificed a creature, so your value is not good enough, with current low creature counts.
That's a great point about Silence. I forgot about that use for it.
I agree with cutting Regal Force as the creature count just seems too low to make it worth it. What would be really great is if we a greater good effect on a creature but, I know that is just dreaming.
If I'm going the infinite land untaps combo direction, do you think Temur Sabertooth is enough or should I include any additional ways of getting Zacama back into my hand? I plan to keep all the sac and draw effects but, those aren't in line with the infinite plan.
Thanks for the feedback. I think I will take out the one shot effects for now like Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Silence is bit harder to cut but, we will see how relevant it feels. After getting a foil, I'm very eager to try out Selvala, Heart of the Wilds but, she was another card I was looking at as kind of a flex spot. What do you think?
As far as City of Solitude goes, I agree that it is a bit harder to tutor for but, that was one of the reason I like it. It is tutorable with things like enlightened tutor, sterling grove or Academy Rector to protect us on a combo turn. I'll let you know how it works out.
I agree that it would be bad to play both Celestial Dawn and Vernal Bloom. If Celestial proved worthy of a spot it would likely be over Vernal Bloom which again could be a mistake. Celestial however does make Keeper of Progenitus better though as now all your lands are plains.
What I would love to hear is more about what the combo turn looks like because right now it seems to be very reliant on the of the 3 cards you mentioned Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall. If we don't draw one of the 3, is it still possible to create enough mana to win?
If Omen turn's out well then Celestial Dawn could be interested as well. That even allows us to cheat in tap lands, then destroy it with Zacama and profit. Naming white for caged sun and just pray no one cast Iona lol.
In your current iteration, how do you get Zacama into the command zone to cast him multiple times on the combo turn? I see there are a few draw effects that require him to be sacrificed but, I'm guessing it is not that common to be able to chain those effects over and over. Shooting himself seems bad.
I might not run Oath in my list for the reason's you mentioned and because I'm afraid of my opponents abusing it before I can, then destroying it. I am thinking of running a few more toolbox creatures along with Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling.
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
With a play group like that I can see how Burgeoning would be an all star.
Not to surprised about the Karoo lands as the draw back is just that big. The only way I can see them being OK is with Blood SunBlood Moon or maybe Amulet of Vigor.
High Market seems like a card that we want to give us a way to sac Zacama with so few in the deck. Maybe I'm wrong but, I imagine our combo turn, we want to cast Zacama a few times netting us a bunch of mana, cast some draw card effects, cast more doublers, cast zacama more and just win?
I love that path to victory! Major style points for sure.
I'm honestly surprised that there are not more/better ways to continually return creatures to your hand. I figured there would be at least a land that allows us to do that but, Karakas has to be banned...
The great part about a number of these cards is that even if we do get hit with a jester's cap effect, the opponent will likely not even know what they are looking to remove.
I have some folks I play with that pack graveyard hate and one who runs blightsteel colossus in every deck. I wouldn't want to add more cards that could be dead draws but, I think having more then 1 instant win con makes me more comfortable.
If you were going to add another what would it be?
Also, with adding the sweepers, Academy Rector seems like it could find its way back into the deck. What do you think?
I appreciate all the work on this deck. This is exactly what I was envisioning when thinking about how to run Zacama!
With the changes you suggested yesterday it might be worth running amulet of vigor which also helps our ramp spells. Also, Crucible of worlds and Ramunap Excavator would fit nicely. Though I get the plan is to have less permanents committed to the board.
To me the Karoo lands are a bit to much risk with not enough reward as the require returning an untapped land of a specific type to your hand and then enter the battle tapped themselves.
The Ravnica lands seem good as they allow you to return any land and it can be tapped.
I am curious how having just 1 wincon in the deck has worked out? It seems like we could add in 1 or 2 more for additional consistence.
the problem with the constructs youi mentioned is that they are bad or slow or don't give you anything when die. Mimic is not that useful and slow your deck, have to survive to do something and doesn't impact the game when comes to battlefield. The overseer is few better but is also slow and probably you can't untap with it to be useful.
The only construct I can see being useful is verdurous gearhulk which have an inmediate impact when comes into play and can win you games from nowhere. The problem with it is that it's slow, so I'm trying to include some (2) Rishkar, Peema renegade into the list to being able to play at least one of them to be searched with the traverse the ulvenwald and finish the game. Also winding constrictor followed with rishkar is not a bad play at all.
Inspiring call could be a sideboard card against heavy control decks also, but not sure about it
Metallic Mimic is a great card in this deck. It allows you to play hangarback Walker or Walking Ballista for 0 and still enter the battlefield with a counter. If you have a winding constrictor or a Hardened Scales on the table its just that much better. That being said it is a situational play. If you opponent has open mana and your confident they are holding removal I would not take that line of play but, I highly doubt many people would be expecting that game one unless they know what deck you are on.
I agree that verdurous gearhulk is slow though has the potential to be explosive. Though, I would not want to see that in my opening hand and don't know when I would. However Rishkar, Peema renegade might be worth some serious consideration depending on the list.
I am a fan of drawing cards and Inspiring call is a great way to do that in this deck.
Liking the artifact version quite a bit though I think I might go a bit more all in on the constructs tribal and add mimics and overseer. Have you thought about playing inspiring call? Seems like it works both ways to draw us cards and protect agaist removel.
Also, love rite of passage and look forward to comboing out with that.
I do agree a number of thoughtseize main could be very useful but, having so way do draw card is very relevant as well.
I think everyone can agree that have extra copies of retract main could be very valuable. The current choices are either HR or Paradoxical Outcome.
HR Pros
Only 2 mana
Can bounce opponents chalice
Great against heavy affinity metas
HR Cons
Still requires an engine in play to combo
Cost 2 mana
Paradoxical has already been discussed but, imo it's more deserving of a main deck spot as a one or even 2 then HR which feels much more like a sb answer unless main deck chalice is a thing in your meta.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the thinning argument in this deck a ton, just that against the grindier matchups, not having fetch targets makes fetches dead while real lands not. I'm running
If I played aether grid I would play a foundry over a coast.
Maindeck, I really like horizon canopy as the 15th land over sleight, but that's just me. I do think it should be 2 noxious for sure. I don't think the 2nd grape shot is necessary in terms of redundancy, but I can see arguments for being able to use 1 as early removal since we don't have any interaction in the main. I really like swan song. It hits discard, counters, removal, and the super relevant eidolon. Not to mention it is great interaction against nonsense.
I'm still trying to figure out what the paths are for, can anyone explain?
With running 4 seachrome coast the fetches become a lot worse for the reason you stated. The list of land you posted includes 6 fetches and only 4 fetchable lands. I'd consider upping the number of lands you get hit off a fetch and decrease the number of Seachrome Coasts as those really only shine in the early turns of the game anyway. Plus path is a thing and if you have already grabbed the basics from fetching their patch is much better.
In regards to path, it is an answer to problem creatures that will either disrupt combo like Thalia, the white or red eidolon, Kambal, etc. or something that will end the game before we combo. It is often the cheapest instant speed answer we can easily play.
I've added a section the the primer, "Meta Changes", which hopefully gives a guide to possible changes. Shows a few of the "flexible" slots.[/quote]
Thanks for the updates! Good stuff. I was gold fishing the deck last night and can't wait to play it in a real game. I do plan on running Eladamri's Call as a way to fetch Temur Sabertooth or the other pieces I need in that moment. Tutoring never really seems like a bad thing.
That's a great point about Silence. I forgot about that use for it.
I agree with cutting Regal Force as the creature count just seems too low to make it worth it. What would be really great is if we a greater good effect on a creature but, I know that is just dreaming.
If I'm going the infinite land untaps combo direction, do you think Temur Sabertooth is enough or should I include any additional ways of getting Zacama back into my hand? I plan to keep all the sac and draw effects but, those aren't in line with the infinite plan.
As far as City of Solitude goes, I agree that it is a bit harder to tutor for but, that was one of the reason I like it. It is tutorable with things like enlightened tutor, sterling grove or Academy Rector to protect us on a combo turn. I'll let you know how it works out.
Also, for an additional protection effect is City of Solitude worth the inclusion?
What I would love to hear is more about what the combo turn looks like because right now it seems to be very reliant on the of the 3 cards you mentioned Greater Good, Life's Legacy or Momentous Fall. If we don't draw one of the 3, is it still possible to create enough mana to win?
In your current iteration, how do you get Zacama into the command zone to cast him multiple times on the combo turn? I see there are a few draw effects that require him to be sacrificed but, I'm guessing it is not that common to be able to chain those effects over and over. Shooting himself seems bad.
With that being said for High Market could Prismatic Omen warrant an inclusion? That would make all of our other nonbasic type lands better as well.
It seems like the game plan you forecast is much less reliant on the one turn combo and more on grinding value from Zacama's activated abilities. Do you still aim for the combo or no?
Not to surprised about the Karoo lands as the draw back is just that big. The only way I can see them being OK is with Blood Sun Blood Moon or maybe Amulet of Vigor.
I'm curious why you decided to remove replenish?
High Market seems like a card that we want to give us a way to sac Zacama with so few in the deck. Maybe I'm wrong but, I imagine our combo turn, we want to cast Zacama a few times netting us a bunch of mana, cast some draw card effects, cast more doublers, cast zacama more and just win?
I'm honestly surprised that there are not more/better ways to continually return creatures to your hand. I figured there would be at least a land that allows us to do that but, Karakas has to be banned...
I think my version will include the lands you mentioned, Vance's Blasting Cannons (which seems amazing with Enlightened Tutor effects anyway) and Temur Sabertooth.
The great part about a number of these cards is that even if we do get hit with a jester's cap effect, the opponent will likely not even know what they are looking to remove.
Curious, what does your 99 look like now?
If you were going to add another what would it be?
Also, with adding the sweepers, Academy Rector seems like it could find its way back into the deck. What do you think?
With the changes you suggested yesterday it might be worth running amulet of vigor which also helps our ramp spells. Also, Crucible of worlds and Ramunap Excavator would fit nicely. Though I get the plan is to have less permanents committed to the board.
To me the Karoo lands are a bit to much risk with not enough reward as the require returning an untapped land of a specific type to your hand and then enter the battle tapped themselves.
The Ravnica lands seem good as they allow you to return any land and it can be tapped.
I am curious how having just 1 wincon in the deck has worked out? It seems like we could add in 1 or 2 more for additional consistence.
Thanks again for your work on this deck!
Metallic Mimic is a great card in this deck. It allows you to play hangarback Walker or Walking Ballista for 0 and still enter the battlefield with a counter. If you have a winding constrictor or a Hardened Scales on the table its just that much better. That being said it is a situational play. If you opponent has open mana and your confident they are holding removal I would not take that line of play but, I highly doubt many people would be expecting that game one unless they know what deck you are on.
I agree that verdurous gearhulk is slow though has the potential to be explosive. Though, I would not want to see that in my opening hand and don't know when I would. However Rishkar, Peema renegade might be worth some serious consideration depending on the list.
I am a fan of drawing cards and Inspiring call is a great way to do that in this deck.
Also, love rite of passage and look forward to comboing out with that.
I do agree a number of thoughtseize main could be very useful but, having so way do draw card is very relevant as well.
HR Pros
Only 2 mana
Can bounce opponents chalice
Great against heavy affinity metas
HR Cons
Still requires an engine in play to combo
Cost 2 mana
Paradoxical has already been discussed but, imo it's more deserving of a main deck spot as a one or even 2 then HR which feels much more like a sb answer unless main deck chalice is a thing in your meta.
With running 4 seachrome coast the fetches become a lot worse for the reason you stated. The list of land you posted includes 6 fetches and only 4 fetchable lands. I'd consider upping the number of lands you get hit off a fetch and decrease the number of Seachrome Coasts as those really only shine in the early turns of the game anyway. Plus path is a thing and if you have already grabbed the basics from fetching their patch is much better.
In regards to path, it is an answer to problem creatures that will either disrupt combo like Thalia, the white or red eidolon, Kambal, etc. or something that will end the game before we combo. It is often the cheapest instant speed answer we can easily play.