So I've played this for about 4 weeks now. I run a third deprive instead of the mana leak. IMO, the spirebluff canals are a liability and should be dropped for +1 steam vents, +1 island and +2 blue fetch lands. In the sideboard I run Ashiok, Dream Render for amulet titan, scapespift and storm MUs. It's also good against sultai shadow, which i see occasionally.
Is there a good sideboard guide for this deck? I never know what to side out. Spell snare and magmatic sinkhole are easy cuts if they don't do anything against the deck your playing, but I don't know where to go after that. I usually end up trimming copies of force of negation or archmage's charm since everything else is core to the decks game plan.
I was on 3 aether vials because 1 is still in the mail.
2-1 red prison
Game 1 had a decent start, remand his turn 2 bloodmoon and spell queller it away next turn. He had a 3 rabble master draw this game. I thought he might have been on goblins and boarded wrong for game 2.
Game 2 I had a slower start and bridge got me.
Game 3 mull to 6, Wander into Supreme into drogskol. Fetched basics to avoid moon and his resolved bridge was irrelevant. Opponent kept a land heavy hand and couldn't dump it fast enough.
2-0 colorless eldrazi
Nothing notable. Janky deck (it had serum powder and some other weirdness) and my opponent got mana screwed both games. I did get to remand a thought knotseer he exiled 2 simian spirit guides to cast, which felt gross.
2-0 scapeshift
Established a clock and held up queller for scapeshift both games.
1-2 KCI
Game 1 I didn't know what my opponent was on and kept an iffy hand. He won the die roll and combo'd turn 3.
Game 2 I had a turn 2 rip and a clock. He found an EE when I had both Supreme and rattlechains out for beats, flashed in selfless to save my dudes. He couldn't combo after getting rip off the table and I had lethal when he passed back.
Game 3 I got stuck on 3 lands. Then I got greedy and cast a top deck kataki with negate and queller in hand. Lost on his next turn. Huge misplay on my part, pretty sure this game was mine and I just gave it away.
0-2 Grixis Cruel Control
My deck decided it was done for the night. Mulled to 5 both games. Flooded out game 1, got mana screwed game 2.
Remand felt great all night. Vapor snag felt bad every time I cast it. The sideboard felt about right, despite throwing it together at the last minute. I think I brought in 9 cards against KCI. Not sure about the echoing truth, eidolon and labyrinth spots though.
For those curious over the 2 remorseful main and 2 nebelgast side, I'm in a combo and control heavy meta here. Although remorseful was never relevant tonight.
Going forward: -2 vapor snag +1 aether vial (should be delivered today) +1 land (ghost quarter most likely). -1 kataki +1 Stony silence.
I gonna make an order to buy the new spirits. I don't know how many Marsh Flats are necessary to play a esper list. I suppose that buying 3 are the best option looking to the future. Should I buy some Darkslick Shores too?
Isn't polluted delta better? Even with 4 lingering souls, we're heavier into blue than white. I'd rather be able to fetch basic island, flats is going to force you to shock for blue more. Plus there's the MUs that either run blood moon MB, or bring it in against this 3 color version. I think you want to side souls out against blood moon decks.
I wouldn't run more than a one of darkslick since black is such a light splash. Multiples aren't great and it's probably not even necessary if you run enough fetches and have one each of godless shrine and watery grave.
Hello, I haven't played delver in about a year now, but I saw "Chart a Course" get spoiled in IXA and it made me think of delver of secrets. Just thought I'd mention it here. What do you guys think?
Initial impressions: 2 cmc sorcery isn't where delver wants to be.
4 seconds later: realize this wouldn't work as an eot play anyway.
I think it's worth testing. 2 mana for 2 cards is as good as it gets, but I'm pretty sure jamming 4 in and calling it good is a mistake. Also, I think it fits the merfolk shell better than delver.
I agree with focusing into playing control game in the beginning. I sided out Delvers for more hate, so basically becoming a Grixis Control deck. Is siding out Delver a good thing? I never want to play Delver/Serum T1 if I have Snare/Ceromonious.
That's a good question. I don't think I ever sided out Delvers in any situation. I always kept them in there for the quick beats. I could be wrong though. I never thought to side them out until I saw people on this thread suggesting so.
I usually sided out my thoughscours. I could be wrong for siding out the thoughscours though.
I only side delver out in mirror matches (usually only on the draw). I used to side them out against grixis and UWx control decks when I had ancestral vision in the SB, but don't anymore.
I wouldn't cut thoughtscours out entirely, but trimming a copy or two is okay if you can't find other cuts. I like to trim flex slots (spell pierce and shadow of doubt) first. Next to go is land 19, terminate 3, and (very rarely) snapcaster 4. Bring in 3x ceremonious and a Staticaster. Holding delver until turn 2-3 is perfectly fine against affinity. Although I'll jam it T1 if I have hand heavy on removal and light on counter magic
Working on a deck list for an IQ this weekend. I expect lots of grixis (probably 1/3 of the field combined) control, delver, twin and probably even chapin's prowess list. Some tron, twin, BGx, Infect, Grishoalbrand and Burn will round most of it out. Fringe decks I might run into are KikiCord, viscera seer collected combo? (this pile not sure what it's called), storm, soul sisters, etc. I'm leaning towards Hallowed Moonlight in the flex slot for the cord/collected decks and Remand over condescend since I'm expecting so much grixis. Here's what I have so far:
I'm considering taking out Timely and RiP for Runed Halo and Story Cirle. Tbh I'd like to find a way to keep RiP in the sideboard since it's so good against decks with graveyard shenanigans. Maybe just swap Timely with Runed Halo and leave circle out? I'm also considering dropping the Engineered Explosives and possibly big Elspeth for something else but I'm not sure what, probably 2x Clique or 1/1 Knight Errant and Purge #3.
Going back through recent decklists, there's the grixis cruel control deck that made top 8 at the premiere IQ a week or two ago; it had FOUR copies of remand. I'm looking at that and trying to decide if I even want to contemplate trying a configuration of esper with four copies of remand; on the one hand, it could suck late game, on the other, time walks are crazy good for us. I feel like it flops if you don't have bolt to back it up.
Any Idea what a mainbaord might look light for 4 Remands? Are we cutting logic knots, the flex slots or shaving snares/cryptics? I'm willing to give this a try Sat, I'm pretty terrible with this deck though.
U/W or Bant? Which is better in a meta that's littered with aggro decks and the occasional control deck and most recently G/W enchantments (1-2 guys on this G/W, I'm not guaranteed to play it every week)?
I don't have the fourth mana confluence yet. The Ordeal of Heliods in the bant list are there to adjust to all the aggro I see every Friday, although I'm thinking about going down to 2 to fit the 22nd land. What do you think?
Is this thread always this entertaining? I've only been here a week and I'm already out of popcorn.
I have a few things in the mail right now, Calciform Pools, Mindbreak Trap and a few other things. I'm considering playing another wincon mainboard. Either a Jace, AoT or Gideon Jura
I don't think this is good enough for modern. It has evasion, passes the bolt test, tossing a think twice to blank a removal spell is valuetown, and scry 3 every turn is probably great for this deck. BUT... it's still a 3/5 for 5 mana. At 5 cmc it's competing for space with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Baneslayer Angel and Gideon Jura.
I've been playing this deck for about 6 weeks. I've been putting up terrible results, but I'm convinced there's something here (and I don't own the Tarns to play Twin like I really want too). I started with a hybrid of the tap-out and draw-go builds, which was the evolution of a terrible Esper Geist midrange deck. I'm mostly guessing at
After loosing a lot with that build I stumbled upon this thread. I haven't read the whole thing (dang it's long), but I've gotten through the first 20 or so pages and about the last 30. I've decided to give straight draw-go a try after reading that. Here's what I'm at now:
I'm aware that I probably need the 4th Cryptic. I have the points on puca, but if someone doesn't send me one by the 24th (when my CC statement rolls over) then I'll just buy another. While we're on the subject, is 4 absolutely necessary, or are the lists that run (get away with) 3? What should I cut for the 4th Cryptic? I'm leaning towards swapping the 4th Spell Snare for it.
My list is tuned towards beating delver (grixis, jeskai, and dark) and grixis control, because that's about 1/3 of what I see at my LGS. I also see elves, infect, jund, merfolk, grishoalbrand; occasionally tron, twin, bloom titan, bogles, living end, and some weird bant midrange build. Affinity and burn (at least until this week) have been complete absent. I faced burn twice this week, so I'm in the process of retuning my sideboard to face that again. I'm rather found of Blood Baron (bit of a pet card I guess). Grixis and jund can't really deal with it (outside of Lili) if it resolves and the lifelink isn't terrible in the burn MU. I know I'm weak to tron in my 75, but I don't see it very often in my area, there's one guy that plays G/R and another that occasionally plays mono-blue. So I don't run much hate for it.
Is Calciform Pools still a thing? I saw a lot of love for it a few pages back. Seems kind of slow and I don't really like it with 2 other colorless lands, but having another mana sink doesn't seem that bad. Especially one that can power out a huge Rev or Zenith. Basically, I'm running 8 fetches because that's what I have. It looks like most builds run 7, and I'm not sure what to run in the place of the 8th.
I would think very hard before I boarded in Abzan Advantage against Heroic decks of any kind. The card leads to blowouts, just not the ones you might care for.
Your right. I need to have a chat with the gentleman that plays Abzan control at my shop. My other deck is UW heroic and he owes me a half a dozen draws. We've been playing that wrong. Doh.
[quote from="The Other Guy »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/584617-primer-orzhov-warriors?comment=263"]My SB is something like this for reference:
Out of curiosity, in what matchups will you want to side in Radiant Purge and/or Abzan Advantage? I'm terrible at sideboarding so this isn't a criticism; it's me genuinely wondering.
</blockquote>
I'm bringing in purge against abzan aggro and any of the ascendancy combo decks. Maybe temur midrange to, but I haven't seen that recently.
Abzan advantage comes in against ascendancy combo decks and UW heroic. I might bring it in against RW if chained to the rocks is a problem.
Rager is much worse once you realize it's a bear that not only does nothing the turn it comes down but threatens to lead you into making and/or planning dreadful combat steps. I'm still scratching my head why people are so down on Chief of the Scales, despite the Chief not only solving a primary weakness to 1/x's, but being another warrior that not only can't be targeted by Ultimate Price but also buffers your top end out of Drown in Sorrow range.
I actually have 3 Chief of the Scale in my sideboard. I like it a lot in aggro MUs, RW tokens, and the mirror but it doesn't do to much in the others. The 2-drop slot is already pretty crowded as well, so he was relegated to sideboard duty. You bring up an excellent point about Rager. It's a card I'm interested in testing at least. I'll start at 4 and cut copies from there if I find it leads to blow-outs.
I'm also highly suspect of Thoughtseize in game 1 scenarios, if purely for curve reasons. You are going to lose most games where your opponent stonewalls you and Downfall is leagues better of shoring up that problem and the GW MU in general that Thoughseize will ever be. Aside from specifically targeting a select number of normally post board problem cards, Thoughtseize is very lackluster. Forcing an opponent to stumble occasionally is great and all but it detracts from your own game plan of being aggressive in the first place.
I'm only playing this at FNM, so I have trouble justifying the cost of Hero's Downfall (traded mine away when mono black aggro didn't pan out) when it's going to rotate in 4 months. If I decide to take this list to anything more competitive I'll likely drop the money for downfall's, but I'm willing to forgo a few percentage points at FNM. Feels weird to skimp on it when I'm running thoughtseize, but I picked those up mostly to mess around with Esper Control in mondern. Thoughtseize mostly gets played Turn 2 or 3 along with deploying another threat. I'll only play it turn 1 if I have no other play or I'm paired against a green deck and on the draw.
If I were to move TS to the side, what would you recommend in it's place? I'm open to suggestions but most of the removal options we have seem too narrow to mainboard. My SB is something like this for reference:
So I've played this for about 4 weeks now. I run a third deprive instead of the mana leak. IMO, the spirebluff canals are a liability and should be dropped for +1 steam vents, +1 island and +2 blue fetch lands. In the sideboard I run Ashiok, Dream Render for amulet titan, scapespift and storm MUs. It's also good against sultai shadow, which i see occasionally.
Is there a good sideboard guide for this deck? I never know what to side out. Spell snare and magmatic sinkhole are easy cuts if they don't do anything against the deck your playing, but I don't know where to go after that. I usually end up trimming copies of force of negation or archmage's charm since everything else is core to the decks game plan.
That's a 61 card deck.
*turns out I can't count either.
4 mausoleum Wanderer
2 phantasmal image
4 rattlechains
2 remorseful cleric
3 selfless spirit
4 Supreme phantom
4 drogskol captain
4 spell queller
Spells (13)
3 aether vial
4 path to exile
2 vapor snag
4 remand
3 seachrome coast
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
2 moorland haunt
4 Island
2 Plains
3 negate
2 echoing truth
1 kataki, War's wage
1 selfless spirit
1 eidolon of rhetoric
1 spirit of the labyrint
2 nebelgast Herald
2 rest in peace
1 Stony silence
1 engineered explosives
I was on 3 aether vials because 1 is still in the mail.
2-1 red prison
Game 1 had a decent start, remand his turn 2 bloodmoon and spell queller it away next turn. He had a 3 rabble master draw this game. I thought he might have been on goblins and boarded wrong for game 2.
Game 2 I had a slower start and bridge got me.
Game 3 mull to 6, Wander into Supreme into drogskol. Fetched basics to avoid moon and his resolved bridge was irrelevant. Opponent kept a land heavy hand and couldn't dump it fast enough.
2-0 colorless eldrazi
Nothing notable. Janky deck (it had serum powder and some other weirdness) and my opponent got mana screwed both games. I did get to remand a thought knotseer he exiled 2 simian spirit guides to cast, which felt gross.
2-0 scapeshift
Established a clock and held up queller for scapeshift both games.
1-2 KCI
Game 1 I didn't know what my opponent was on and kept an iffy hand. He won the die roll and combo'd turn 3.
Game 2 I had a turn 2 rip and a clock. He found an EE when I had both Supreme and rattlechains out for beats, flashed in selfless to save my dudes. He couldn't combo after getting rip off the table and I had lethal when he passed back.
Game 3 I got stuck on 3 lands. Then I got greedy and cast a top deck kataki with negate and queller in hand. Lost on his next turn. Huge misplay on my part, pretty sure this game was mine and I just gave it away.
0-2 Grixis Cruel Control
My deck decided it was done for the night. Mulled to 5 both games. Flooded out game 1, got mana screwed game 2.
Remand felt great all night. Vapor snag felt bad every time I cast it. The sideboard felt about right, despite throwing it together at the last minute. I think I brought in 9 cards against KCI. Not sure about the echoing truth, eidolon and labyrinth spots though.
For those curious over the 2 remorseful main and 2 nebelgast side, I'm in a combo and control heavy meta here. Although remorseful was never relevant tonight.
Going forward: -2 vapor snag +1 aether vial (should be delivered today) +1 land (ghost quarter most likely). -1 kataki +1 Stony silence.
Isn't polluted delta better? Even with 4 lingering souls, we're heavier into blue than white. I'd rather be able to fetch basic island, flats is going to force you to shock for blue more. Plus there's the MUs that either run blood moon MB, or bring it in against this 3 color version. I think you want to side souls out against blood moon decks.
I wouldn't run more than a one of darkslick since black is such a light splash. Multiples aren't great and it's probably not even necessary if you run enough fetches and have one each of godless shrine and watery grave.
Might just be me, but that land count looks a tad high.
Initial impressions: 2 cmc sorcery isn't where delver wants to be.
4 seconds later: realize this wouldn't work as an eot play anyway.
I think it's worth testing. 2 mana for 2 cards is as good as it gets, but I'm pretty sure jamming 4 in and calling it good is a mistake. Also, I think it fits the merfolk shell better than delver.
I only side delver out in mirror matches (usually only on the draw). I used to side them out against grixis and UWx control decks when I had ancestral vision in the SB, but don't anymore.
I wouldn't cut thoughtscours out entirely, but trimming a copy or two is okay if you can't find other cuts. I like to trim flex slots (spell pierce and shadow of doubt) first. Next to go is land 19, terminate 3, and (very rarely) snapcaster 4. Bring in 3x ceremonious and a Staticaster. Holding delver until turn 2-3 is perfectly fine against affinity. Although I'll jam it T1 if I have hand heavy on removal and light on counter magic
I figured as much. I think grixis MUs are already good enough that 4 remand is unnecessary. I'll just run moonlight or possibly SoD
4 Path to Exile
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Logic Knot
4 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
2 Hallowed Moonlight
4 Esper Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 white sun's zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage
Lands (26)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Celestial Purge
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
I'm considering taking out Timely and RiP for Runed Halo and Story Cirle. Tbh I'd like to find a way to keep RiP in the sideboard since it's so good against decks with graveyard shenanigans. Maybe just swap Timely with Runed Halo and leave circle out? I'm also considering dropping the Engineered Explosives and possibly big Elspeth for something else but I'm not sure what, probably 2x Clique or 1/1 Knight Errant and Purge #3.
Any Idea what a mainbaord might look light for 4 Remands? Are we cutting logic knots, the flex slots or shaving snares/cryptics? I'm willing to give this a try Sat, I'm pretty terrible with this deck though.
4 Favored Hoplite
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
4 Hero of Iroas
4 Battlewise Hoplite
2 Seeker of the Way
Spells (24)
4 Gods Willing
2 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
4 Aqueous Form
4 Ordeal of Thassa
4 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Flooded Strand
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Mana Confluence
1 Tranquil cove
6 Plains
3 Island
4 Favored Hoplite
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
4 Hero of Iroas
2 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Seeker of the Way
Spells (23)
4 Gods Willing
2 Valorous Stance
4 Defiant Strike
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Ordeal of Thassa
3 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Plenty
4 Plains
2 Island
I don't have the fourth mana confluence yet. The Ordeal of Heliods in the bant list are there to adjust to all the aggro I see every Friday, although I'm thinking about going down to 2 to fit the 22nd land. What do you think?
I have a few things in the mail right now, Calciform Pools, Mindbreak Trap and a few other things. I'm considering playing another wincon mainboard. Either a Jace, AoT or Gideon Jura
I don't think this is good enough for modern. It has evasion, passes the bolt test, tossing a think twice to blank a removal spell is valuetown, and scry 3 every turn is probably great for this deck. BUT... it's still a 3/5 for 5 mana. At 5 cmc it's competing for space with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Baneslayer Angel and Gideon Jura.
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Think Twice
3 Lingering Souls
4 Esper Charm
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands (24)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Plains
After loosing a lot with that build I stumbled upon this thread. I haven't read the whole thing (dang it's long), but I've gotten through the first 20 or so pages and about the last 30. I've decided to give straight draw-go a try after reading that. Here's what I'm at now:
4 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Logic Knot
3 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Esper Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 white sun's zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage
Lands (26)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Celestial Purge
1 Annul
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
2 Stony Silence
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Curse of Death's Hold
I'm aware that I probably need the 4th Cryptic. I have the points on puca, but if someone doesn't send me one by the 24th (when my CC statement rolls over) then I'll just buy another. While we're on the subject, is 4 absolutely necessary, or are the lists that run (get away with) 3? What should I cut for the 4th Cryptic? I'm leaning towards swapping the 4th Spell Snare for it.
My list is tuned towards beating delver (grixis, jeskai, and dark) and grixis control, because that's about 1/3 of what I see at my LGS. I also see elves, infect, jund, merfolk, grishoalbrand; occasionally tron, twin, bloom titan, bogles, living end, and some weird bant midrange build. Affinity and burn (at least until this week) have been complete absent. I faced burn twice this week, so I'm in the process of retuning my sideboard to face that again. I'm rather found of Blood Baron (bit of a pet card I guess). Grixis and jund can't really deal with it (outside of Lili) if it resolves and the lifelink isn't terrible in the burn MU. I know I'm weak to tron in my 75, but I don't see it very often in my area, there's one guy that plays G/R and another that occasionally plays mono-blue. So I don't run much hate for it.
Is Calciform Pools still a thing? I saw a lot of love for it a few pages back. Seems kind of slow and I don't really like it with 2 other colorless lands, but having another mana sink doesn't seem that bad. Especially one that can power out a huge Rev or Zenith. Basically, I'm running 8 fetches because that's what I have. It looks like most builds run 7, and I'm not sure what to run in the place of the 8th.
Your right. I need to have a chat with the gentleman that plays Abzan control at my shop. My other deck is UW heroic and he owes me a half a dozen draws. We've been playing that wrong. Doh.
I'll swap it out for an erase or something.
I'm bringing in purge against abzan aggro and any of the ascendancy combo decks. Maybe temur midrange to, but I haven't seen that recently.
Abzan advantage comes in against ascendancy combo decks and UW heroic. I might bring it in against RW if chained to the rocks is a problem.
I actually have 3 Chief of the Scale in my sideboard. I like it a lot in aggro MUs, RW tokens, and the mirror but it doesn't do to much in the others. The 2-drop slot is already pretty crowded as well, so he was relegated to sideboard duty. You bring up an excellent point about Rager. It's a card I'm interested in testing at least. I'll start at 4 and cut copies from there if I find it leads to blow-outs.
I'm only playing this at FNM, so I have trouble justifying the cost of Hero's Downfall (traded mine away when mono black aggro didn't pan out) when it's going to rotate in 4 months. If I decide to take this list to anything more competitive I'll likely drop the money for downfall's, but I'm willing to forgo a few percentage points at FNM. Feels weird to skimp on it when I'm running thoughtseize, but I picked those up mostly to mess around with Esper Control in mondern. Thoughtseize mostly gets played Turn 2 or 3 along with deploying another threat. I'll only play it turn 1 if I have no other play or I'm paired against a green deck and on the draw.
If I were to move TS to the side, what would you recommend in it's place? I'm open to suggestions but most of the removal options we have seem too narrow to mainboard. My SB is something like this for reference: