MTG Salvation

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i agree. i also get that opinions can change over time, and maybe some people were on the fence about it.

i thought the info that kt revealed on how much stirrings is played relative to visions (and subsequently decks that would play preordain) was quite telling. it also doesnt help that the decks that tend to play stirrings usually arent doing something 'wholesome'.

so maybe we advocate for a preordain unban. however bans should have a higher bar to pass. if anyone has ever had a ban hit them, they should know its a really crappy experience. frankly i wouldnt mind if stirrings decks went away, but i also realize that bias is driving that perspective. so i cant in good conscious get behind mangling a number of decks when none of them is breaking any of the 'rules' established with the pattern of previous ban decisions.

which just goes to show how fickle the community can be, and how much bandwagoning occurs. the reasons for not banning stirrings back when you proposed the idea are just as true now as they were back then.

kci is a durdly combo deck, and tron is one of the most maligned decks in the history of the format. of course people are going to get up in arms when they see them at the forefront of a GP. as people who talk about this stuff constantly we should be more level headed than that.

i can see that as reasoning to unban preordain, but not for banning stirrings.

you said it yourself a while back ktkenshinx (when you were defending stirrings). cards arent a problem unless the deck itself is problematic. none of the decks that play stirrings have crossed any line yet as far as i know. so whats the justification for the ban? avoiding hypocrisy? a stirrings banning entails hurting multiple decks, none of which are too good; which in itself is hypocritical.

so we can debate balance amongst various effects, but lets not forget that we are talking about seriously nerfing decks that a lot of people are invested in for reasons completely unrelated to performance. bans seriously blow. they are the extreme, and should be avoided at all costs.

this is just hearsay, but i believe they give artists guidelines for certain pieces of art but not all of it. because ive heard that they stockpile art, and when it fits something they can use it. also i remember reading one designer (maybe maro?) who talked about liking a piece of art destined for a product further down the line, and hijacking it for another card he thought it would be better for.

im sure there is a whole lot that goes into it that people generally dont know about (myself included). however i think having distinct art between high profile reprints is favorable factor in the card economy. its not going to stonewall prices dropping, but its also a small buffer for collectors.

for instance if they reprint shocks in the new ravnica block i hope they have new art. more options are good in my book.

tron lands check sub-type, not the name. it doesnt show on the earlier printings of the card, but check out the 8th edition version. its the reason that spreading seas still shuts off tron.

Quote from javert »

I admit that, given Modern metagame as a Eternal format is quite different and definitions are prone to shift, Jund and Mardu have been called midrange usually. No problem, but I oppose not calling Tron midrange especially if comes of sort of scorn that may drive it to call it "linear" and group it along Bloo or KCI.

i guess if you really care what people call a deck, or are trying to campaign to get the community to acknowledge a change you would like. other than that it hardly matters. these classifications are just a means of identification and mutual understanding used in these conversations. we can call tron midrange, but its main objective and strategy to reach it IS linear because it devotes the majority of the deck to accomplishing it. sure some people use it as a slur, but that is mostly out of ignorance. kci is linear, but its a difficult and decision laden deck. similarly titanshift is also linear, but is oft cited as being on the lower end of the difficulty scale.

so tron may be midrange to you, but what does that matter. it certainly doesnt make it more similar to jund than it was before like you pointed out. likewise people call lantern a control deck, but its obvious it shares few play patterns associated with a blue based control deck.

if you want to convince people that tron is harder to play than the very common opinion. using some indirect method to re-establish archetype labels seems a poor way to go about it. if it has nothing to do with perceived skill. well then good luck with your campaign.

i believe shaheen soorani has been on kci for a while. he would probably like to play some UW jace control deck though.

Going below 3 Nahiri is definitely wrong. She has utility outside of the combo kill.

Quote from LeakyMana »

I imagine the title and summary (Two-Time Pro Tour Finalist Shaun McLaren loves him some Jeskai, but the deck's stock is already falling after its recent victory! Find out why Shaun thinks this is a new reality and what lists he's brewing to counteract the metagame!) are meant to be click-bait-y, but is there anything of interest in Shaun McLaren's SCG Premium article "The Jeskai is Falling"?

It is indeed a click bait title. I have premium from Charlotte, so I got to read it; in the comments he admits it himself (well...kinda; he's pretty serious about what he wrote; he's not trying to trick anyone -- just spun the title so that way it'd sound more interesting). To be fair, he does mention that Francis made 9th place. Here's the direct copy-pasta of the two comments:

Sheridan Lardner · Data and Program Evaluation Manager at Alternatives, Inc.
"I enjoyed the analysis of Jeskai as a strategy, but think the discussion about "Jeskai decks currently struggling to put up results" is really off-base. Francis missed the GP T8 by .018 on breakers, and if .018 is the difference between "struggling" and "viable" we need to re-examine our definition of competitiveness. Jeskai decks also saw more collective paper play in May than every deck except Infect, Jund, and RG Tron, and was the third most-played Day 2 deck at the GPs. The deck over-performed its Day 2 rate into the Top 32 and matched its rate going into the Top 16. Overall, Jeskai may have room to grow, but it's very well-positioned from a metagame standpoint as we go into June."
Unlike · Reply · 4 · 16 hrs

Shaun McLaren:
"I agree with what you're saying I also think the deck was hyped up and failed to live up to the hype.

If it's one of the most played decks and failing to put up Top 8's (even though it's an arbitrary cut off point) that supports that idea. But the sample size is small and not that revealing.

From a writing standpoint I think it's more interesting if I frame it as “The Jeskai is falling! Jeskai isn't dominating here's what I think needs to happen to propel it to the top.” rather than “Everything is pretty much average, Jeskai is decent, here's my lists, carry on with your life!” Either way the meat of the article would've been the same.

But you're absolutely right and good points!"

Quote from toroks »

Quote from LeakyMana »

I imagine the title and summary (Two-Time Pro Tour Finalist Shaun McLaren loves him some Jeskai, but the deck's stock is already falling after its recent victory! Find out why Shaun thinks this is a new reality and what lists he's brewing to counteract the metagame!) are meant to be click-bait-y, but is there anything of interest in Shaun McLaren's SCG Premium article "The Jeskai is Falling"?

What does his decklist look like? (Don't have premium)

Three deck lists, actually. General theme is that he's trying to see if he can move away from Ancestral Vision and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Apparently he doesn't really like AV, and he thinks Emmy is kind of a dead draw. He'd rather sideboard the card instead; idk if that makes any sense -- I think it's a play main or bust, honestly (siding it out is fine; siding it in seems sketch).

Jeskai Control (His personal take on Francis Cellona's list)


Jeskai Aggro:


Kiki Control:

Got 5th place on Saturday at a smaller SCG IQ at Legendary Games in Lexington, KY.

Played Jeskai Narhiri, figured I could do a short tournament write-up.

Here's my decklist:


Round 1: Mirror (2-0)
Was not expecting the mirror right out of the gate, but hey, it happens. Game 1 was a grind, but my 2 maindeck Ancestral Vision gave me a pretty good edge. I also hit Desolate Lighthouse fairly early, which is fantastic in the mirror. He landed a Nahiri that I couldn't answer, but when he used her -8 I tapped his Emrakul with a Cryptic and then bolted Nahiri off the table. I drew the game out until I could ultimate my own Nahiri, and countered his Cryptic when he tried to do the same. Logic Knot was fantastic.

Sideboarding
-1 Supreme Verdict
-1 Electrolyze
-2 Path to Exile

+2 Negate
+1 Crumble to Dust
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Path isn't the most useful card in this matchup, but it answers Colonnades nicely, so I like keeping a few in. Crumble fills a similar role, and is basically just upgrading a path since they really only hit manlands anyways in the mirror. I don't remember much of g2, but it was a similar grind that ended with me swinging in with Emrakul for the win in turn 3 of extra turns.


Round 2: Jund (2-0)
He was playing a version of Jund that was running a lot more kill spells than the average list (multiple copies of Murderous Cut in addition to the usual Terminates, Abrupt Decays, and Dreadbores. Fortunately for me, that means he got stuck with a hand full of blanks. He played a Goyf, Olivia, and a Scavenging Ooze, which all immediately ate a removal spell. Liliana of the Veil fell prey to Logic Knot, which impressed me once again. I landed a Nahiri eventually and hit him for 15 shortly after.

Sideboarding
-1 Electrolyze
-1 Lightning Helix

+1 Wrath of God
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

I didn't see any Dark Confidant's game 1, so Electrolyze didn't feel too great to me. Game 2 was a bit more interesting, after exchanging removal spells and creatures for a few turns, I eventually land a Nahiri. I immediately +2 her, discarding Emrakul, which my opponent then exiles with Surgical Extraction. I hit several redundant copies of Nahiri, which was interesting since I couldn't really use her ultimate for much value (I could have grabbed Snapcaster Mage if necessary). Luckily I landed an Elspeth which quickly ran away with the game.


Round 3: Grixis Control (1-0)
My opponent seemed to be on a generally stock Grixis control list, though he was running 2 Anger of the Gods Main. He hit both game 1 which meant 2 dead cards for him. He also didn't hit any hand disruption, so I felt firmly in the driver's seat the whole game. He also made a few misplays, like casting Mana Leak with no followup into 3 open mana. Logic Knot proved to be quite good in this matchup, allowed me to exile a bunch of dead fetches from my grave before looting Emrakul away with a Lighthouse. I cast Logic Knot twice that game and both times it was great, it really impressed me. After about a 35-40 minute grindy game 1, I Emrakul'ed him out of the game.

Sideboarding
-1 Electrolyze
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Supreme Verdict

+2 Negate
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Game 2 was similarly grindy. He played Thing in the Ice, which I didn't see at all game 1, so his list was definitely not a stock list. Personally, I'm not a fan of that card, it sat around for a few turns and then ate a path. He had Dreadbore for my Nahiri, and then Snap + Dreadbore for the second. The game went to turns, and with no winner I got the match 1-0.


Round 4: Jund (ID)
With only 18 people in the tournament and 5 rounds of swiss, 3-0 was enough to double-draw into top 8. My opponent was on Jund, and agreed to the ID.

Round 5: Tron (ID)
Same sort of deal, my opponent was on Tron, and agreed to the ID (thank God, this is my absolute worst matchup).

Top 8: Grixis Control (1-2)
I got matched up with the same opponent from Round 3. I was 3rd seed going into top 8, so I was on the play. Opponent missed a land drop on turn 4, so attempted to Snapcaster + flashback Serum Visions. I Mana Leak'ed the Snapcaster figuring he was trying to hit lands, then untapped and slammed Nahiri. He didn't have an answer, and was met with a turn 7 Emrakul.

Sideboarding
-1 Electrolyze
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Supreme Verdict

+2 Negate
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard was pretty much the same as before. Game 2 was a much longer grind than the first. After fighting over an Ancestral Vision on my turn, he untapped and played Molten Rain into Snap + Molten Rain hitting my two red sources (I had missed some land drops). It was crippling at first, but he didn't follow up with any aggression. The game went long enough that I looted away Emrakul to shuffle my grave back in and hand enough time to naturally re-draw the lands he destroyed. He also hit a Colonnade with a Crumble to Dust. Apparently he had a decent number of dead cards, so decided to bring in a bunch of land hate, which was a smart move. Eventually he played a Tasigur that I couldn't answer and finished me off with a bolt.

Sideboarding
-1 Lightning Helix

+1 Supreme Verdict

Having lost the last game to Tasigur and knowing he was still playing Thing in the Ice, I figured having 1 Supreme Verdict was more valuable than the second Helix. Unfortunately he hit a critical mass of discard spells, and used Snap to replay a few of them. We hit a critical turn where he had a Tasigur, Snap, and Creeping Tar Pit in play with 1 card in hand. I had 7 mana available and Elspeth, Negate, and Snap in hand. I had to deicide if it was worth waiting a turn to draw the 8th land so I could cast Elspeth with Negate backup, or try to slam the Elspeth that turn. I was at something like 14 life and didn't want to take 9 the next turn, so I jammed Elspeth, and ran into a Mana Leak. I'm not sure if that play was necessarily wrong, since if I held the Elspeth I would have gone to 5 that turn, then Tar Pit + Bolt, Snap, or Kcommand is enough to end the game. Plus I wasn't even guaranteed to hit my 8th land the following turn. Sometimes you just have to make them have it, and he had it


It was a bit of a bummer to lose to a guy who I had beat earlier in the tournament, but he was nice enough, and I was happy enough with meeting my goal of Top8. Was it the most competitive field? Of course not. The meta was really weird. No one was on Affinity, Burn, or Infect. There were 4 Jund, 4 Grixis Control, 3 Jeskai Control, 2 Tron, 1 Hatebears, 2 Kiki-Chord, 2 Abzan Company, and 1 guy on a weird Delver/Blue Moon deck. Definitely not your expected meta, it was super heavy on the midrange and control side, but I was really happy with how my deck played out.

Takeaways
I was really happy with my deck overall, here are some of the things I took away from my experience.

1. Nahiri is awesome
We all know this by now, but Nahiri really is an awesome wincon for Jeskai Control. The ability to stabilize and then slam a card that says "answer me or game over" is exactly what this deck wants. Do you sometimes draw a blank in Emrakul? Occasionally. But Nahiri is quite versatile, and turns the corner faster than our opponents can recover.

2. Lighthouse is a House
I already knew this card was great, but since the meta was so control/midrange oriented, Lighthouse shone pretty much every time I drew it. The ability on a land to ditch bad cards and dig for good ones is phenomenal. You're missing out if you're still not running this card.

3. Logic Knot is better than it looks
In my playing at FNM, one of the most feelbad things you can do with this deck is draw Emrakul, loot and discard him, and then shuffle all of your dead fetches back into the deck. That scenario has come up a lot more than I would have expected, so I wanted to run 1 card that would let me at least get rid of dead lands in case of Emrakul shuffles. Logic Knot was fantastic every time I drew and played it. I cast it for X=7 and X=10 during the day, both times only tapping 2 lands. I think either 1 Logic Knot or 1 Harvest Pyre makes the deck feel so much better, and right now I'm on the Logic Knot train. Try it out.

4. Sideboard still needs work
This is always the case, as no sideboard is perfect and needs to be constantly updated and adapted. However, with all of the midrange and control I felt I didn't have enough cards I wanted to bring in. Elspeth was great for the grindy matchups, but I'm unsure of whether I want her in or not. I generally like to run multiple copies of cards I really really want to draw in specific matchups, which you can see in my 3 Crumble to Dust in the side. Personally, I feel like we can only beat Tron if the game goes something like t2 Mana Leak, t3 Remand, t4 Crumble to Dust. However, I've heard is said that with all of the card selection (Serum Visions, Nahiri, Lighthouse), we are able to run more one-of side because we'll have an easier time finding them. I'm going to reassess my sideboard strategy and see if I would be better off running fewer duplicate copies in favor of having a more diverse sideboard.

Well, that's about it, hope you can make use of some of that Great Wall of text.

Went 3-0 last night at FNM, and won a GPT today with the following list. There were some very slight alterations between the two lists (covered below) but it's a very similar deck. Lots of text below, I tried to break it into spoiler sections.


GPT List


My original maindeck 60 for the FNM was nearly identical to Gerry Thompson's list from the Grand Prix. There was a three card difference in that I ran -2 Arid Mesa for +1 Celestial Colonnade and +1 Island. I also changed the maindeck Ghost Quarter for a Desolate Lighthouse. The sideboard I ran at the FNM was different. See below.




Overall, I loved having access to Ancestral Vision. I feel this deck is really able to make good use of it and there are many games where it makes this deck better able to fight the opponent, either by refueling on removal spells against aggressive decks, or letting you have the card advantage you need to push a Nahiri through against more controlling decks. I don't know about playing four though. Being able to loot away excess ones is nice though.

23 lands worried me a lot at first, but I felt it was fine. I often play control lists with 26 lands (more traditional reactive UW or Esper + Sphinx's Revelation) I didn't miss many land drops and the two or three games where I missed one before my fourth were games I chose to take that risk given the ability of my hand to otherwise interact. It is important often to use those early Serum Visions to find land though. There were many turns I would leave uncracked fetchlands just to draw lands I had kept on top with Scry.

A lot of people shy away from Mana Leak in decks with Path to Exile. With 5 ways in the deck to loot excess ones away, I felt very good about having it as a bridge to get to my turn 3/4/5.

Against aggressive matchups, I was typically bringing in 2 Anger/2 Stony Silence (affinity) or 2 Timely Reinforcements and taking out the 3 Remands and 1 Ancestral Vision.

I was very, very happy with Lightning Helix. The life buffer it can provide, especially when cast with Snapcaster Mage's help feels very good. Two was good. I felt like I saw it a lot. One of the strange things about Helix is you often have to Fetch + Shock to be able to cast it early, so the upside early game isn't as great as once you hit turns 3/4. I was happy with two. I would consider a third.

I did not miss Electrolyze or Cryptic Command. Having Cryptic Command would have been a nice way to bounce Grafdigger's Cage, but otherwise didn't feel necessary.

I don't have a great answer for the Dredge deck. Having a bolt that you can cast on a Snapcaster to limit their Bridge from Below triggers could be helpful, but even then, the presence of Greater Gargadon makes nothing a guarantee. Rest in Peace is a clean answer, for sure, but also punishes us a fair bit for using it. Anyone got ideas?

I feel like the deck mulligans quite well. I felt like a lot of the mulligans were clearly correct and only had to mulligan to 5 once.

Regarding the Sideboard, everything was brought in except Celestial Purge. I wasn't incredibly impressed by Timely, but I didn't run into the matchups where it's great. Some of the reason I am hesitant about its use is that against matchups like Merfolk and Affinity, you're not able to use the tokens as blockers anyhow, which has always been a concern for me with the card.

Thanks for reading! I'd appreciate any feedback you've got.

Grixis runs Terminate instead of Path, and Kolaghan's Command is generally worse than Electrolyze in fast matchups. UWR is much better positioned against Blitz than Grixis.

Honestly, without Jace + Thoughtseize I don't know why people bother playing Grixis. I think everyone just associates UWR with the Snapcaster-only Control builds that disappointed for so long. I think Visions has been great, so far.

You definitely want to build around that "fundamental turn" that your Turn 1 Visions comes off suspend. In my mind that means more positional advantage permanents (i.e. planeswalkers) at CMC 4 and 5, so that you can either drop one without it dying on turn 4 and untap with Visions on 5, or you can trade resources early and draw into it (and/or the final land to cast it) on turn 5. Basically you just want to make sure it's the slowest thing happening in your deck, and that you don't run other durdle cards like Think Twice or Revelation. It's also awkward to run 12+ spot removal spells, 4 Snapcaster, Visions, etc., and Visions into Verdict on an empty board.

If you can stomach not looking like a Control deck, UWR can close out games far faster than Grixis can, on account of Colonnade and the fact that white gets the planeswalkers with the highest board presence. Gideon + Colonnade is 10 damage/turn, for example, and Elspeth is slower but is essentially the unbeatable "Black Ship" of creature-based Magic.

Why do we continue to have this conversation? Its a hobby. That's the end of it. By virtue of it being a hobby it is neither inexpensive or expensive. Its the wrong metric to measure it by and if that's the metric you're using, well you shouldn't be playing. You can't afford it.

Quote from ax92 »

Quote from CryptoSC »

I really like your list, the only thing i am not sure about is the ajanis, i used them while testing various lists and they never really felt impactfull enough.
What is their main purpose?

He's a monster to me, he could stall a game, act as a removal and end hostilities on its own. I use it generally to keep a land tapped (a major play vs Tron) or to prevent a large threat to swing a 2nd time. Vs aggro he enters act as a removal (and because all the ways we have to get rid of creatures usually they have 1 or 2 left). And it's very easy to finish off, because preventing to uncap something could really mess up the play of our opponent and give us time.
I tried the 1-1 split with Jace AOT, but every time i cast him i just wished it was Ajani.

Quote from TappingStones »

I think you took a step in the right direction. If your meta is full of Tron then you should be sideboarding more hatefully.

In fact it was an idea that it comes to my mind, but i don't like them that much. Right now with Eldrazi gone my SB evolved to face a wider range of decks, as you can see all the SB cards are useful in more than one matchup, and i love that kind of flexibility.
It's even one of the reason why i brought back Surgical; GQ a tron land and surgical it away it's the big play

Actually my point is that your sideboard has a lot of cards that were only marginal pre AV. Like Keranos and Celestial Purge. Both of those cards cards are even less valuable because the midrange matchups are all fine now. There aren't any matchups where a purge or Keranos is really swinging %. Having a card that destroys Tron does change percentage drastically.