yoooooo Winding Way is like a mini Lead the Stampede. didnt think the only card im really considering adding to my elves deck would be a common from the draft chaff (well maybe the green force as well).
it comes up every so often that people offer the argument about different modern play experiences based on the environment, usually revolving around the format being better than the harshest criticisms imply for the average player at the local level. the implication being that its what the majority of modern players experience therefore it is a better representation of the format.
for anyone who thinks this: ask yourself why you are settling for mediocrity. why cant the format be that enjoyable in ALL environments? if the local level, or whatever scope, is generally agreed upon as being better/more fun/whatever than some other level or scope within the same format isnt it wizards prerogative, as game designers and peddlers of 'fun', to take steps and align the two?
eh i just read that nassif article and tbh i dont think its worth much credence. nassif is a UW control master no doubt, but he has a penchant for unconventional card choices. also his analysis is just surface level and noncommittal since he admits to not even testing any of the cards yet. that and the click-baity title has me thinking its forced content from CFB having the 'control guy' just put something out there.
like he admits that his evaluation of FoF is based on him being big on glimmer of genius for a while; a card that saw intermittent play but was never adopted as standard tech in any UWx control deck. though i will acknowledge his point on it being able to play through an opposing narset; which may be very relevant to someone like nassif who has to prepare against a tournament meta riddled with UW.
i do agree with his rationale of cutting colonnades. the card just isnt carrying as much weight as it once did, and the liability of a ETB tapped land became more pronounced. whether 'cutting' means going down to 1-2 or 0 im less confidant about. i remember a random UW list showing up at some point last year with no colonnades, a lower land count, and mishra's bauble including (some number i cant recall) monastery mentors. i thought it was a novel idea, but never explored it beyond that.
the big question mark with archmage's charm is: can you play it and field of ruin? (with it still being good) field is one of those innocuous things that has acted as a pillar of this decks success for over a year now, making it hard to see UW control without it unless there is a major divergence in builds. blast zone is also strong, but until proven to be much more impactful than i believe it is, its kind of a 1-A flex inclusion.
such cloudshift type effects also need to generate a cards worth of value from the etb to get your moneys worth, so its intensive to build around. cards such as flickerwisp or restoration angel come with the body and some added utility; so they can be profitable inclusions even if blinking is a sub-theme or incidental.
just seems unlikely they would have held off on feature spoilers for anything really interesting; such as a 5-color snow land or whatever. the dump of cards at the end of the spoiler runs is usually just limited chaff.
edit: dont get me wrong, im hopeful to see some surprises too. like maybe cabal coffers makes it without being upshifted to rare. or grindstone at common.
I didn't make it to $220. Sure one good mythic or foil can change the number but mass production will lower the value of everything even with the much higher MSRP of $220. You will have chase mythics driving the prices of the boxes. Most of the rares drop to nothing. We know what the pattern is like.
Do you think the price boxes will go down within 15 days?
maybe a little bit now that people have a full grasp of the spoilers. i mean hell, the price of boxes on tcgplayer have already dropped to 190 shipped. regardless of how anyone evaluates all the new cards, which comprise most of the set, their high preorder price points that drove box EV that in turn had people jacking up box prices - its superficial. its a glorified standard set, so the cost of cards like Urza or the horizon lands cant be so high because people will it to be. the cards are subject to market forces, and their value (thus box EV) will trend towards the price of boxes.
so yeah i dunno if it will be 15 days, or a few weeks longer than that. people coming to their senses with prices adjusting organically is (likely) going to happen at some point. wizards has shown a penchant for staggering the flow of supply, which could cause localized spikes in the box prices even after release because demand is still floating high. WAR boxes and box EV is a good example of that.
being able to metagame against a narrower more known field is a good part of underpowered or fringe stuff succeeding. it looks stupid from the perspective of someone with a top competitive deck sleeving up dedicated hate for some budget deck; which probably just says something about that person and their motivations. from the other side though, using the example of choke; is it unsportsmanlike for someone on a budget mono-G stompy deck to get some chokes if his meta is infested with islands? no of course not.
likewise if people start packing hate against you, you go to the next level and look for ways around it. that is what meta-gaming is - the game above and outside the game. maybe modern has just been in this non-meta state with all its 'diversity' that people dont see it like that anymore. fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective, a common characteristic of top modern decks has been their robust and therefore hard to pin nature. decks need to be able to do everything, sideboards need to cover everything, etc. so more often we see entire decks rise up to counter one another, which drives people to the idea of needing to be able to switch decks to keep up.
So we finally get Splice onto instant or sorcery Draw a card...for a splice cost of 2U and a regular mana cost at instant speed for 1U. Will Everdream see play? It has the same nigh-unstoppability as Splicer's Skill unless your hand gets shredded apart, but competing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Search for Azcanta is bound to get ugly.
Ux isnt really in the market anymore for top end draw spells. just way better stuff goin on. i mean id even take fact or fiction over trying to durdle around with some splice spell. a closer comparison though is hieroglyphic illumination - cycle early draw late
Mirrodin Besieged is like a noncreature Sai, Master Thopterist, except the tokens don't fly and you can't sac artifacts to draw cards, but you can change your mind and make this a looting win con that wants you to hit 15+ artifacts in your graveyard. Does any deck want this?
its just a rough draft, but as i mentioned before about a 'hedge' build this seems like a balanced numbers split. not sure about the walker split tbh, since i dont have the experience with them so i just chose to cut a big teferi instead of a jtms as a nod to FoN to have one more way to shuffle any away if the the matchup or game doesnt care about a negate effect.
terminus is a just something i want to test out, but its a nod to GY decks while being a powerful out to draw in to (or just steal a game lol). coulda been a surgical, which has started to show up in MDs more; however 3 FoN provides some added insulation against the stuff surgical tends to hate on. remand is also whatever, just personally like the idea of remand into charm.
What are you thinking for the new UW changeling? The effect is potent enough that I wanna try it in a spirits build.
It seems actually really good, nothing crazy broken but solid. Thinking nabout picking up a playset of that and giver sub $10. Think these will go down?
if you are getting either or both in the 3-6 dollar range, id say just go ahead and pull the trigger; mostly because you want to play them. i could see either going down a few dollars, bottoming out a few weeks after release if neither is showing up in results. similarly if they do show up in any numbers, moving closer to the 10 dollar point isnt out of the question. so there is some risk from both directions, with the decider being that you get to play with cards you want sooner rather than later.
granted my opinion isnt founded on much. such a high priced print-to-demand product is new territory. atm im just assuming similar behavior to standard sets
What are people's opinions on these.. ice fang coatl and yawgmoth, would their price increase or decrease weeks after release?
you only buy from SCG right? i wouldnt pick up ice-fang coatls at SCG prices (4x more than preordering them on card kingdom, and 2x more than tcgplayer) . maybe it sees some play in a snow deck that doesnt exist yet, but even if it does its just that 1 deck. i cant see any demand for the card in other formats.
as for yawgmoth...yeah id wait on that one. im very skeptical about it being able to command a 35 dollar price tag, even at mythic. unless it turns out its craaaazy good in commander or something i dont see it going UP while its in print. less sure on whether it will go down much and when that would happen. IMO its low risk to just wait
"You can only play degenerate things", then you look at the metagame and see that Humans and UW Control are Tier1. Affinity, if you sum up Hardened Scales and the classic Robots, also is. UR Phoenix is a very interactive deck, although it does unfair things. The only tiers who aren't fair are Gx Tron and Dredge.
Then, we've got a lot of Tier 1,5 strategies. There are both fair and unfair decks. Amulet Titan, Grixis Shadow, Titanshift, Spirits, Storm, etcetera.
HOW is this metagame non-sensical? Please tell me. Argue with real reasons, not with "I prefer playing x, y, z".
what or who is this aimed at? no one said anything about only being able to play degenerate decks or anything about the meta being nonsensical.
it making sense and people expressing their dislike of it are different things. we were just talking about whether or not ur phoenix qualifies as a degenerate deck and general thoughts on deck classifications, which at this point we can safely say a lot of modern players arent on the same page when it comes down to specifics thanks to varying internalized definitions.
look at the decks you listed:
-amulet
-tron
-dredge
-titanshift
-GDS
-storm
-spirits
-humans
-affinity (assuming you include hardened scales as well)
-humans
-UW control
all the above have interactive elements (to some degree), distinctly different or unique play patterns, and generally enough going on to be skill testing. however you can also see that its heavily skewed towards proactive decks built in a fashion that frequently has them running past or just through eachother. some more decks:
-infect
-burn
-GB rock
-goryo's
-devoted company
-eldrazi and taxes // eldrazi stompy
-mono-r prison
-hollow one
i mean the list goes on forever. seems great right? still has those good things i mentioned above. however its still the same with a heavy skewing towards the proactively inclined. at this point its almost a requirement for any deck to carve out a spot, because on some level you just need something to power through and leverage your skill when you can, and leverage your deck (to win) when you cant.
all of this makes sense. its just a byproduct of so many decks doing so many wildly different, yet similarly powerful, things. is this more or less 'healthy' than a format more grounded in a subset of powerful responsive tools and thus more focused such as legacy? i dunno, different formats are different. regardless though it doesnt preclude people from disliking certain aspects, the types of decks seeing a lot of play, and or wishing for a shift in (at the least) in a different direction.
its like ktkenshinx has been saying, modern is trying to do a whole lot, and at the end of the day some people have to endure disappointment and unrealized expectations; or...just not play modern
for anyone who thinks this: ask yourself why you are settling for mediocrity. why cant the format be that enjoyable in ALL environments? if the local level, or whatever scope, is generally agreed upon as being better/more fun/whatever than some other level or scope within the same format isnt it wizards prerogative, as game designers and peddlers of 'fun', to take steps and align the two?
like he admits that his evaluation of FoF is based on him being big on glimmer of genius for a while; a card that saw intermittent play but was never adopted as standard tech in any UWx control deck. though i will acknowledge his point on it being able to play through an opposing narset; which may be very relevant to someone like nassif who has to prepare against a tournament meta riddled with UW.
i do agree with his rationale of cutting colonnades. the card just isnt carrying as much weight as it once did, and the liability of a ETB tapped land became more pronounced. whether 'cutting' means going down to 1-2 or 0 im less confidant about. i remember a random UW list showing up at some point last year with no colonnades, a lower land count, and mishra's bauble including (some number i cant recall) monastery mentors. i thought it was a novel idea, but never explored it beyond that.
the big question mark with archmage's charm is: can you play it and field of ruin? (with it still being good) field is one of those innocuous things that has acted as a pillar of this decks success for over a year now, making it hard to see UW control without it unless there is a major divergence in builds. blast zone is also strong, but until proven to be much more impactful than i believe it is, its kind of a 1-A flex inclusion.
edit: dont get me wrong, im hopeful to see some surprises too. like maybe cabal coffers makes it without being upshifted to rare. or grindstone at common.
so yeah i dunno if it will be 15 days, or a few weeks longer than that. people coming to their senses with prices adjusting organically is (likely) going to happen at some point. wizards has shown a penchant for staggering the flow of supply, which could cause localized spikes in the box prices even after release because demand is still floating high. WAR boxes and box EV is a good example of that.
ugh, this is gonna bother me now till i find out lol
likewise if people start packing hate against you, you go to the next level and look for ways around it. that is what meta-gaming is - the game above and outside the game. maybe modern has just been in this non-meta state with all its 'diversity' that people dont see it like that anymore. fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective, a common characteristic of top modern decks has been their robust and therefore hard to pin nature. decks need to be able to do everything, sideboards need to cover everything, etc. so more often we see entire decks rise up to counter one another, which drives people to the idea of needing to be able to switch decks to keep up.
KCI
still room in the crunch for wild growth; another i hope to see show up (i personally wouldnt ever play it, but i like the idea of it being around).
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (7)
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Path to Exile
1 Oust
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Terminus
Cantrips (5)
3 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Cryptic Command
3 Force of Negation
3 Archmage's Charm
1 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
1 Remand
its just a rough draft, but as i mentioned before about a 'hedge' build this seems like a balanced numbers split. not sure about the walker split tbh, since i dont have the experience with them so i just chose to cut a big teferi instead of a jtms as a nod to FoN to have one more way to shuffle any away if the the matchup or game doesnt care about a negate effect.
terminus is a just something i want to test out, but its a nod to GY decks while being a powerful out to draw in to (or just steal a game lol). coulda been a surgical, which has started to show up in MDs more; however 3 FoN provides some added insulation against the stuff surgical tends to hate on. remand is also whatever, just personally like the idea of remand into charm.
granted my opinion isnt founded on much. such a high priced print-to-demand product is new territory. atm im just assuming similar behavior to standard sets
as for yawgmoth...yeah id wait on that one. im very skeptical about it being able to command a 35 dollar price tag, even at mythic. unless it turns out its craaaazy good in commander or something i dont see it going UP while its in print. less sure on whether it will go down much and when that would happen. IMO its low risk to just wait
it making sense and people expressing their dislike of it are different things. we were just talking about whether or not ur phoenix qualifies as a degenerate deck and general thoughts on deck classifications, which at this point we can safely say a lot of modern players arent on the same page when it comes down to specifics thanks to varying internalized definitions.
look at the decks you listed:
-amulet
-tron
-dredge
-titanshift
-GDS
-storm
-spirits
-humans
-affinity (assuming you include hardened scales as well)
-humans
-UW control
all the above have interactive elements (to some degree), distinctly different or unique play patterns, and generally enough going on to be skill testing. however you can also see that its heavily skewed towards proactive decks built in a fashion that frequently has them running past or just through eachother. some more decks:
-infect
-burn
-GB rock
-goryo's
-devoted company
-eldrazi and taxes // eldrazi stompy
-mono-r prison
-hollow one
i mean the list goes on forever. seems great right? still has those good things i mentioned above. however its still the same with a heavy skewing towards the proactively inclined. at this point its almost a requirement for any deck to carve out a spot, because on some level you just need something to power through and leverage your skill when you can, and leverage your deck (to win) when you cant.
all of this makes sense. its just a byproduct of so many decks doing so many wildly different, yet similarly powerful, things. is this more or less 'healthy' than a format more grounded in a subset of powerful responsive tools and thus more focused such as legacy? i dunno, different formats are different. regardless though it doesnt preclude people from disliking certain aspects, the types of decks seeing a lot of play, and or wishing for a shift in (at the least) in a different direction.
its like ktkenshinx has been saying, modern is trying to do a whole lot, and at the end of the day some people have to endure disappointment and unrealized expectations; or...just not play modern