It’s modern and commander players who get the biggest love in this set.
while i agree, i sorta wished they made this card mythic. id prefer to see more splashy casual commander cards at mythic with the bulk of pushed playables for modern at rare and below. that might still end up being the case, but yeah
What's everyone still hoping for? Me, it's Counterspell and some more zombies (Carrion Feeder would be a great reprint, but I'm up for anything).
i dont really know anymore. the spoilers so far have simultaneously gone beyond my expectations while falling short of them at the same time.
there have been a surprising lack of actual reprints, so i guess im hopeful for some of those; instead of just 're-imagined' stuff. things like fire//ice, vindicate, pernicious deed, etc (of course counterspell would be welcomed).
beyond that most of the cards are in that spoiler-evaluation-state where very few, even among seasoned players, seem to know what the hell they are talking about let alone accurately predict anything.
IDK, it seems "obvious" the other half of the cycle will be printed in MH2. I guess by doing it this way we get 6/10 now instead of just 5/10 and it serves as a warning shot to those owning horizon canopy that it will not hold it's current price long term as a reprint will be coming in a very few years.
Pretty sure the "obvious" choice for MH2 is going to be a Grove of the Burnwillows cycle, and not a rehash of the same thing MH1 is doing. And even that would be ignoring a dozen other possibilities that all might have credence (imagine an Urborg cycle? )
I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for Grove of the Burnwillows’ cycle to be finished—
Grove itself has taken on way more of a life than they wanted for it, and GU/BG versions would boost Infect more than a little.
I’d love to see them, but I’m not very optimistic about the chances.
modern infect still needs a lot of fetches to support become immense, a card i dont ever see the deck moving away from. in-color 'grove lands' wouldnt see any more play than botanical sanctum.
The set so far seems to basically be a Modern Sideboard set and an actual Commander set lol. I really think FoN is just terrible and I don't see the point in playing it over Flusterstorm in a sideboard.
to answer stuff that isnt instants or sorcery would be my guess. regardless of how you rate the playability of either FoN or flusterstorm, they wouldnt be competing for slots
It won't be competing in slots because its not going to be played
seems like you missed the point, in that flusterstorm and FoN are hardly comparable; thus your originally quoted statement makes little sense. whether you think FoN is garbage or a slam dunk is irrelevant.
The set so far seems to basically be a Modern Sideboard set and an actual Commander set lol. I really think FoN is just terrible and I don't see the point in playing it over Flusterstorm in a sideboard.
to answer stuff that isnt instants or sorcery would be my guess. regardless of how you rate the playability of either FoN or flusterstorm, they wouldnt be competing for slots
When I saw today's previews were slivers my heart sank a little. Why are they so wicked that they didn't spoil counterspell already? I bet they said, well, day1 goes for force, next monday counterspell.
at this point im not even considering counterspell as a possible inclusion. so far we have flusterstorm, force of negation, prohibit, and exclude. maybe there are more permission spells, and maybe its even counterspell, however that line-up makes me think they passed it over this time around.
When talking about Morophon being a chase card in this set, are we ignoring that cards like this (high cmc creatures that rely heavily on the deck to be worth anything and compete with proven staples that aren't expensive) are never worth much or that there are tons of other cards that will see play in multiple formats in the set? This is a mildly popular Commander card for a little while and for that it's a $3.50-$5 card... hardly chase.
Since Modern Horizons has a finite print run, he will most likely be more expensive than that, especially after the print run ends. Probably no more than 10 bucks however.
*facepalm*
how many times do we have to tell you guys
its not a limit run product its a print run no different to conspiracy/battlebond
print to demand doesnt mean infinite supply. the print run is going to end at some point, and cards exclusive to the set and the sealed product itself will increase in price. just look at those examples you were so quick to reference, conspiracy and battlebond. both of which are out of print and include plenty of cards that are going nowhere but up.
Gonna depend on scope of box printings. If the set hits expectations of hype, a rare will not hold at + $20
normally id agree, but the markup on horizons boxes to nearly 2x standard sets; the 'cap' for any mythic or rares will increase proportionally.
best we can hope for is a good spread of chase cards to ensure prices are distributed evenly. for instance if most of the rares turn out to be chaff/bulk level in desirability then a 20+ dollar rare, even while in print, is plausible.
I hope that almost nobody will use that combo...it is just atrocious. Question also is, if enough people could get their hands on lattice before it exploded in price.
Not going to directly weigh in on the Karn question because there simply isn't enough data out there, but I will say that Karn highlights the advantage of digital cards and errata. Design and balance mistakes happen all the time in all games, especially Magic, and especially once you move out of Limited/Standard to older formats. In a world where you are stuck with paper cards and the text printed on them, you can't retroactively fix these cards. This applies to both broken cards, e.g. everything that has ever been banned in any format, and very bad cards, e.g. cards that totally miss the mark and don't see play.
Digital Magic and errata/patches give Wizards an alternate solution to this problem. It allows them to make small/large adjustments to cards in order to make them better or worse, depending on the context. Take Karn, for example. Any of the following adjustments would avoid the Lattice combo, if one's goal is to remove that synergy:
1. Change to "Activated abilities of nonland artifacts your opponents control can’t be activated."
2. Change to "-2: You may choose an artifact card you own with converted mana cost 4 or less from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand."
3. Change to "-X: You may choose an artifact card you own with converted mana cost X or less from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand."
4. Change Lattice to "All nonland permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types. All nonland cards that aren’t in play, spells, and nonland permanents are colorless. Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color."
This errata/patching approach would improve balance for so many banned cards, underplayed decks, and broken metagames. It's also the model used by all major online games. I believe Wizards will eventually go in this direction, and/or are actively trying to figure out how to do this without creating a huge gap between online and paper Magic. Banning Nexus in BO1 and nowhere else is just the start of this journey, as was the functional Pridemate change.
Of course, this approach is not without risk. Wizards can become too balance-happy and issue errata for things that simply don't need it based on mass panics or outcry. Imagine if Wizards nerfed Teferi to only untap one land, or Wilderness Reclamation to untap only a few lands, because of MTG Arena complaints. Or increased CoCo's mana cost by 1 at the height of its power. Tweaks like this, and countless others we could speculate on, might assuage a short-term hysteria but would limit long-term feasibility of those cards/decks, especially if Wizards is balancing across formats. After all, if Wizards messed up the design to begin with, they can certainly mess it up again down the road. Additionally, part of the beauty of non-rotating formats is in finding design mistakes and exploiting them for powerful decks, and too much errata would make that challenging. Patching/errata is not a perfect solution by any means, but I do think if done correctly it would really open up Magic play and design space in ways that would benefit players and formats like Modern.
or...they could just ban really problematic cards and or continually release sets in relatively short intervals with new cards and interactions to keep balance in a fluid state.
'patching' cards, or in other words just arbitrarily telling people a card does something different than what it says, may be an alternative solution; however that doesnt make it a good one or even necessary for that matter.
you said it yourself, its implementation is unfeasible in paper. designing or making decisions with arena Bo1 in mind (nexus) or updating cards to remove archaic and mostly asinine rules text to smooth out the functionality on a digital client (pridemate) are one thing. implementing a new balancing system that runs contrary to the one already in place while also bringing along the baggage of well...not even working for the majority of your product line and users; is another thing entirely.
consider the world back before arena. if 'patch' based balancing offered significant benefits worth seeking out, then why hasnt wizards tried it in 25 years? were they just unaware that this was a method that digital tcgs or games in general used to make balance adjustments? i doubt it. so the question then becomes: what about arena would compel them to use it now? normally for digital games it'd be how quickly it could be implemented by pushing out a version with updated code and graphics to the entire playerbase, but that advantage was never on the table for mtg to begin with.
guess wizards has to hold back on artifact design cause karn right? smh
I'm interested in which direction WoTC would go on this. Would they stop printing narrow but powerful sideboard type artifacts because Karn?
nah, i was just being sarcastic because many players still hold up 'limiting equipment design' as a reason SFM hasnt been unbanned.
as i see it, wizards has and will continue to (hopefully) primarily design for standard and limited. new powerful utility artifacts will be printed, just like new cheap spells or creatures in whatever tribes. if anything gets out of hand, that is when banlist decisions can be made. i mean that is why it exists after all. besides, most of the powerful stuff the new karn is doing is with artifacts that design has moved away from in general like ensnaring bridge.
as far as im concerned, the only 'this card(s) get better over time' (thus limiting design space) case that made any sense was birthing pod. the scope of 'creatures that do stuff' was just too broad especially since the deck was firmly at the top of the format. even still, the game/formats are complex enough with deep enough card pools that the assumption birthing pod would scale at an overwhelming rate is questionable. unfortunately the bar to unban cards continues to be set much higher than the bar to ban them; so its likely we will never know.
yeah the karn wish package is just solid, and although better suited for some decks the floor on it is high enough that a lot of decks/archetypes can jam it if they wanted. i imagine that is why is cropping up in all sorts of lists. the difficult part is determining if it is actually an upgrade, or if it just feels that way because its new and powerful.
while im surprised that wizards chose to push karn that much it also gives me hope that tutors and toolbox style effects are at least being re-examined somewhat; whereas for a long time many people counted them as taboo.
sTonEForGe mYsTIc liMitS desIgN
guess wizards has to hold back on artifact design cause karn right? smh
Using other people's accounts who have no interest in the product themselves is essentially the same thing as using a bot or fake account to make the purchase.
I see this all the time on the floor of Comic Con every year. I was able to get four sets of the Terese Nielson PWs, because 3 of my friends agreed to wait in line with me and get one (limit 1 per badge, stamped and checked with ID). However, I also ran across a guy early in the day, and then again late in the day, who had been paying people in line to purchase them for him (usually $20-40), and ended up with over 100 sets.
Where do we draw the line between opportunistic and scummy parasites?
yeah i dont know. i think answering that question would involve digging into the dark corners of the secondary market, why it is the way it is, etc.
im not naive enough to believe everyone should get the cards they want for cheap, or that those who recognize there is a market for mtg cards/products and participate in it for their own gain are bad people. lying, stealing, cheating, scamming, etc; its when those classes of malicious or sociopathic behavior are involved that we know for sure its in 'scumbag' territory.
as to your example, i think the guy at the convention is worse. mostly because its an in person event (gotta believe security watches for such stuff), and they would have had to be approaching and soliciting random people; which is disruptive to the festive atmosphere and all around just shady.
the guy who got all those ME boxes, yeah he violated the spirit of the rules but not the actual rules. not to condone it or anything, but unlike bots that exploit the technology in a way that can be harmful to the system (overload requests crashing something), the purchases are indistinguishable from any other and paid for legitimately. im not even sure they could devise some means to detect the same happening in the future, and even if they could, acting upon it would be something other than an impartial sale. itd be asking wizards to somehow know and give preference to 'real mtg players who just want the cards to play with'; which is absurd. if they want less opportunists, then dont print 12k boxes of something with so much value packed in the act of getting one functionally doubles your money immediately. raise the price, choose different walkers, print more boxes, etc.
there have been a surprising lack of actual reprints, so i guess im hopeful for some of those; instead of just 're-imagined' stuff. things like fire//ice, vindicate, pernicious deed, etc (of course counterspell would be welcomed).
beyond that most of the cards are in that spoiler-evaluation-state where very few, even among seasoned players, seem to know what the hell they are talking about let alone accurately predict anything.
'A single germ can kill more soldiers than ten thousand blades'
so i guess e-plague or some variant of it? /shrug
best we can hope for is a good spread of chase cards to ensure prices are distributed evenly. for instance if most of the rares turn out to be chaff/bulk level in desirability then a 20+ dollar rare, even while in print, is plausible.
'patching' cards, or in other words just arbitrarily telling people a card does something different than what it says, may be an alternative solution; however that doesnt make it a good one or even necessary for that matter.
you said it yourself, its implementation is unfeasible in paper. designing or making decisions with arena Bo1 in mind (nexus) or updating cards to remove archaic and mostly asinine rules text to smooth out the functionality on a digital client (pridemate) are one thing. implementing a new balancing system that runs contrary to the one already in place while also bringing along the baggage of well...not even working for the majority of your product line and users; is another thing entirely.
consider the world back before arena. if 'patch' based balancing offered significant benefits worth seeking out, then why hasnt wizards tried it in 25 years? were they just unaware that this was a method that digital tcgs or games in general used to make balance adjustments? i doubt it. so the question then becomes: what about arena would compel them to use it now? normally for digital games it'd be how quickly it could be implemented by pushing out a version with updated code and graphics to the entire playerbase, but that advantage was never on the table for mtg to begin with.
nah, i was just being sarcastic because many players still hold up 'limiting equipment design' as a reason SFM hasnt been unbanned.
as i see it, wizards has and will continue to (hopefully) primarily design for standard and limited. new powerful utility artifacts will be printed, just like new cheap spells or creatures in whatever tribes. if anything gets out of hand, that is when banlist decisions can be made. i mean that is why it exists after all. besides, most of the powerful stuff the new karn is doing is with artifacts that design has moved away from in general like ensnaring bridge.
as far as im concerned, the only 'this card(s) get better over time' (thus limiting design space) case that made any sense was birthing pod. the scope of 'creatures that do stuff' was just too broad especially since the deck was firmly at the top of the format. even still, the game/formats are complex enough with deep enough card pools that the assumption birthing pod would scale at an overwhelming rate is questionable. unfortunately the bar to unban cards continues to be set much higher than the bar to ban them; so its likely we will never know.
while im surprised that wizards chose to push karn that much it also gives me hope that tutors and toolbox style effects are at least being re-examined somewhat; whereas for a long time many people counted them as taboo.
sTonEForGe mYsTIc liMitS desIgN
guess wizards has to hold back on artifact design cause karn right? smh
im not naive enough to believe everyone should get the cards they want for cheap, or that those who recognize there is a market for mtg cards/products and participate in it for their own gain are bad people. lying, stealing, cheating, scamming, etc; its when those classes of malicious or sociopathic behavior are involved that we know for sure its in 'scumbag' territory.
as to your example, i think the guy at the convention is worse. mostly because its an in person event (gotta believe security watches for such stuff), and they would have had to be approaching and soliciting random people; which is disruptive to the festive atmosphere and all around just shady.
the guy who got all those ME boxes, yeah he violated the spirit of the rules but not the actual rules. not to condone it or anything, but unlike bots that exploit the technology in a way that can be harmful to the system (overload requests crashing something), the purchases are indistinguishable from any other and paid for legitimately. im not even sure they could devise some means to detect the same happening in the future, and even if they could, acting upon it would be something other than an impartial sale. itd be asking wizards to somehow know and give preference to 'real mtg players who just want the cards to play with'; which is absurd. if they want less opportunists, then dont print 12k boxes of something with so much value packed in the act of getting one functionally doubles your money immediately. raise the price, choose different walkers, print more boxes, etc.