That depends on a lot of things, what is your local meta like? Also, what do you like to play? Both can be strong, it just depends on so many variables that you can't just say one is strictly better than the other.
*Edit*: I would encourage you to read both the midrange and control primers as well, look at the posted decks, compare how they stack up against other decks and what their weaknesses are. It takes quite a bit of reading, but is worthwhile and will help you understand the meta and how to play against either of them as well, regardless of what you choose to play (I'm assuming you are trying to decide what to play in this case)
So Clique is worth every, single, penny. Against Junk, she tucked a Goyf, Lili, and a smiter and pretty much handed me the win on a silver platter. Against Soul Sisters, she sent away Serra Ascendant and Ranger of Eos. In that same game, Clique and Geist brought him from 62 life to 0. With Resto there to help out my god, you just rule the skies (and the end phase). I don't know how I ever played without them!
I'd be curious to see your list, and I can't access it in your sig for some reason. I currently run just snap and geist, but I've contemplated going more creature heavy as it would probably be a bit stronger in my meta. Do you run lower cost spells as well, or are you going all the way up to cryptic at 4cmc?
My apologies for not sharing the spicy deck techs. I'm certainly not trying to be elitist or anything. I had to mention them due to the boarding.. As you can see from the report, they indeed did very little and may not even make the maindeck next time. Regardless, I have decided to keep them to myself for now.. Hopefully, the lenghty and in-depth report I wrote exclusively for this forum shows my good intentions.
Unfortunately, my opponent did not I learned this the hard way myself, in a test match..
No worries Henkie, I probably mis interpreted your intentions, as tone is always hard to pick up on forums.
We were all just really curious to hear your tech ideas more than anything : )
Please name me decks in which having a Chalice on 1 puts you far enough ahead to win the game? Keeping in mind that you are also cutting off all your Discard, Raven's Crime, Path to Exile, Disfigure, DRS.
I think you'll find that there it isn't good enough in the Modern format to play. Unlike in Legacy.
I was thinking chalice on two would probably be the better way to go, which at that point it would be turn 3 unfortunately. A bit late in the game.
On one to doesn't outright win you the game against any matchup that I know if. It would significantly hamper gr tron on one as it prevents them from playing any of the cantrip artifacts (potentially shutting down a quarter or more of their deck).
I think I just like the card too much and want it to be better than it actually is : )
Henkie has 2 separately mentioned Torpor Orbs in the board, and Torpor Orb is great against Twin (and Henkie boarded out 2 Special Tech against Twin), so no, it's not Torpor Orb.
I'm guessing out my butt here for what the Special Tech could be: Sowing Salt: Huge value against UWR's Celestial Colonnade, decent against Melira Pod's Gavony Township, not enough impact against the other 4 decks, hard to cast
Aven Mindcensor: Awesome against Pod, a threat against UWR Control, doesn't do much against the other 4
Well that's what I get for skimming a report, missed the orb mention in there...
Mind censor is a good guess.
I feel like salt is a decent guess, but much like the crucible discussion, wouldn't some extra ghost quarters or tech edges be superior due to being able to more easily pull them when needed with scrying, expedition map, stirrings, etc? I guess you get rid of all of them with salt which is nice, but the double red seems like it could be problematic.
I have been playing with Crucible of worlds in the SB, and it has been underperforming since usually the decks that play LD usually have artifact hate too.
My local meta is filled with LD, so i might try life from loam x2 instead of crucible in the SB.
I hadn't even thought of loam and I run it as a combo in another deck of mine...
Loam is good as even if they counter it, you can get it back and keep using it again and again, while crucible is more easily hated as you said. I'm going to give this a try as well.
I can agree with that. The only other thing I would add is that the MM printing of Blinkmoth Nexus is so visually appealing that it really makes me want to use it. Many of the color identified lands are better- my three favorites are Treetop Village, Faerie Conclave, and Creeping Tar Pit, but they all have more specific needs that are harder to meet at times. I think it is good to have a playset of a good colorless manland for times when you need it, and the only three that are decent are Inkmoth Nexus, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Mutavault. The first and the third really need some other aspect in the deck in order to really shine, though when they do they are fantastic, but BN does a decent job all around.
And I can agree with this as well. Blinkmoth is a great land, you're right about that. Plus, it definitely brings the flavor and is enjoyable to play. In terms of price it also doesn't break the bank.
On a side note, it also brings back fond memories of when I used to play super casually back in Mirrodin during college. I built a U/W proteus staff deck with set of blinkmoths being an alternative target to things such as raise the alarm tokens in order to get out my darksteel colossus.
According to Henkie's tournament report, the Special Tech is probably a 3-of, is not Spellskite or Mindslaver, is bad against Twin/Jund/Living End/Zoo, and is decent against Melira Pod/UWR Control. This tech doesn't seem to be a blowout against any of the decks in the tournament (or Henkie would probably have mentioned how much of a blowout the secret tech was).
I have a tough time finding weaknesses Melira Pod and UWR Control have in common that Jund/Zoo/Twin/Living End have covered.
The Special Tech does seem to be boarded out with board wipes or Relic fairly often, but not consistently.
I was pining for Mutavault for a while, waiting for it to be a bit more affordable, but I finally looked at the price of Blinkmoth Nexus and decided that it was a better value for play. Sure, it is not improved via tribal pumps, but it is reliable, evasive, and a good price.
I make no claims that it will get more expensive over time, but it is quite a buy for players.
You are right, Vault really does require a tribal deck with lords to shine. Granted the activation cost is quite efficient, you are still left with a vanilla 2/2 at the end of the day, which isn't that impressive in this format. Yes, it is cheap to activate, but if you are swinging with a vault that early in the game you are losing quite a bit of tempo most likely. If I'm playing green for example (and not playing tribal), I'd rather have a treetop village, even thought it comes into play tapped and goes online later in the game.
Nexus is quite good as well, and is definitely a good suggestion as the evasion becomes very big for smaller creatures in this format, especially if you can pump it with something else.
*Edit: to add one final thought to this, Vault is an average man-land in many decks that have better options, but an absolute house/the best possible man land in some very specific types of decks (most of which are outside standard), thus I think it will continue to rise in price over time and will definitely be a card that suffers from price memory despite being printed in a core set.
Is Mutavault going to go down at all before rotation? Last I heard, it was in a tournament-winning deck and has done nothing but spike ~$6.00 in the last month or so.
That's a tricky one Vault is seen a decent amount outside of standard, and is a key piece in a few decks. This strikes me as one that is gradually going to rise again over time, perhaps dipping a bit at rotation. If you need it, I probably wouldn't wait for it to drop in price, but I am no expert. I could easily see it rising enough that when it dips, it goes back to the levels it was at a month ago, thus not saving you a ton of money even if you were to wait all the way until rotation (which you don't want to do it sounds like)
On a related note, I don't think it will be one of those cards like restoration angel, thragtusk or hell-kite that drops down to 25% or less of its original cost at rotation.
Speaking of alternate sideboard ideas, what do people think about crucible of worlds to hinder land destruction (it doesn't get around sowing salt of course, but salt is still a bit slow compared to some of the opponents options). It helps a lot vs some of the other commonly seen cards such as fulminator mage. It also allows us to ghost quarter our own pieces should we need colored mana in a pinch (for things such as slaughter games for example).
I just feel like a lot more decks have started running land destruction MB as of late, as it really does a number on a lot of the popular greedy mana bases.
I've even considered running a single copy of tectonic edge and encroaching wastes to go with a ghost quarter and the crucibles in my GR tron build as I can always sylvan scrying or expedition map for them in those cases that I already have tron online and need something to keep an opponent off of combo mana. I realize Karn does this as well, but the thought of being able to take away two of their lands on turn 5 while I am still working to draw another threat seems really strong against many decks.
I would recommend against non-targeted discard because of Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege. Not all decks play them but plenty do, so until you get a chance to scope out what your local hatebears decks are running I would not cast raven's crime against them. Inquisition and Thoughtseize are less risky but can still occasionally backfire. In my experience Hatebears is weakest to decks that are either very fast (affinity) or can out grind us (merfolk, soul sisters), but your deck probably won't be fast enough if you go midrange and try to race. I think your best bet is to go more control. Spot removal and sweepers are pretty good at killing our creatures and counterspells are great if they aren't playing vials. Elesh Norn and Engineered explosives both sound like great plans but you need some redundant ways to get rid of leonin arbiters, aven mindcensors, and scavenging oozes that might stop those plans.
Thank you Slippery, this gives me a direction to go I think, or at least a way to sideboard/alter my plans for those match-ups as well. G/W looks like a great deck, one that I may consider if I need a new one to pick up, as it looks like it is quite good against most of the meta and can easily be adjusted according to whatever your local scene brings.
So, a question for all of you G/W players from an outsider. Since this deck is designed to bring lots of hate, what exactly hates on it?
I run a mid-rang 4c gifts ungiven list (heavy on the G/B and lighter on the W/U), and I'm planning on taking it to my first Modern weekly tournament. Word is there are a couple of solid G/W hatebears lists that regularly place at this weekly. I can easily take my list more towards control, but I feel like adding mid-range pressure with earlier clocks may help me out more vs this deck. I also don't want to completely change my list to account for only 20% or so of the meta here.
I feel like my best threats may be discard (loam + ravens crime) as well as the engineered explosives + academy ruins combo. Unburial + elsh or iona also seems quite good. All of this usually requires me getting gifts off to begin with however, which I feel might be the biggest problem. Bringing in additional discard may assist with this, and is what I'm thinking.
I would love to get some thoughts from an opponents perspective though?
Well then the tournament report is rather pointless if we don't get to see the deck you played it with.
If you're not going to post the deck list, then you shouldn't bother with the tournament report. It comes across as extremely disingenuous.
Inclined to agree, as sharing would open up some discussion and banter regarding additional card choices. That is what these forums fare for after all, sharing ideas for the deck. You might as well have just said stock list to begin with, as saying you don't want to share, but going out of your way to mention your spicy über leet tech sounds a bit elitist (please excuse me if I interpreted your tone wrong).
No harm in sharing, as this also allows you to take some credit if it's something new. Never a bad thing.
I just picked this deck up a while ago as I had most of the pieces and was looking for something a bit more off the radar (I typically play UWR and BGx). So far I'm loving all of the play options and decision trees, but I find myself being pulled in too many directions.
Is the general consensus based on the modern meta currently that discard is superior to counters due to being more proactive?
I've also been toying with the idea of running multiple chalice of the void main deck, as chalice at 1 or 2 stops a lot of decks, and I run enough dorks that I have found myself running few other 1 -2 cmc spells. Any one have experience running this MD or even in the SB? If so, how has it performed?
That depends on a lot of things, what is your local meta like? Also, what do you like to play? Both can be strong, it just depends on so many variables that you can't just say one is strictly better than the other.
*Edit*: I would encourage you to read both the midrange and control primers as well, look at the posted decks, compare how they stack up against other decks and what their weaknesses are. It takes quite a bit of reading, but is worthwhile and will help you understand the meta and how to play against either of them as well, regardless of what you choose to play (I'm assuming you are trying to decide what to play in this case)
I'd be curious to see your list, and I can't access it in your sig for some reason. I currently run just snap and geist, but I've contemplated going more creature heavy as it would probably be a bit stronger in my meta. Do you run lower cost spells as well, or are you going all the way up to cryptic at 4cmc?
No worries Henkie, I probably mis interpreted your intentions, as tone is always hard to pick up on forums.
We were all just really curious to hear your tech ideas more than anything : )
I was thinking chalice on two would probably be the better way to go, which at that point it would be turn 3 unfortunately. A bit late in the game.
On one to doesn't outright win you the game against any matchup that I know if. It would significantly hamper gr tron on one as it prevents them from playing any of the cantrip artifacts (potentially shutting down a quarter or more of their deck).
I think I just like the card too much and want it to be better than it actually is : )
Well that's what I get for skimming a report, missed the orb mention in there...
Mind censor is a good guess.
I feel like salt is a decent guess, but much like the crucible discussion, wouldn't some extra ghost quarters or tech edges be superior due to being able to more easily pull them when needed with scrying, expedition map, stirrings, etc? I guess you get rid of all of them with salt which is nice, but the double red seems like it could be problematic.
I hadn't even thought of loam and I run it as a combo in another deck of mine...
Loam is good as even if they counter it, you can get it back and keep using it again and again, while crucible is more easily hated as you said. I'm going to give this a try as well.
And I can agree with this as well. Blinkmoth is a great land, you're right about that. Plus, it definitely brings the flavor and is enjoyable to play. In terms of price it also doesn't break the bank.
On a side note, it also brings back fond memories of when I used to play super casually back in Mirrodin during college. I built a U/W proteus staff deck with set of blinkmoths being an alternative target to things such as raise the alarm tokens in order to get out my darksteel colossus.
Torpor Orb?
You are right, Vault really does require a tribal deck with lords to shine. Granted the activation cost is quite efficient, you are still left with a vanilla 2/2 at the end of the day, which isn't that impressive in this format. Yes, it is cheap to activate, but if you are swinging with a vault that early in the game you are losing quite a bit of tempo most likely. If I'm playing green for example (and not playing tribal), I'd rather have a treetop village, even thought it comes into play tapped and goes online later in the game.
Nexus is quite good as well, and is definitely a good suggestion as the evasion becomes very big for smaller creatures in this format, especially if you can pump it with something else.
*Edit: to add one final thought to this, Vault is an average man-land in many decks that have better options, but an absolute house/the best possible man land in some very specific types of decks (most of which are outside standard), thus I think it will continue to rise in price over time and will definitely be a card that suffers from price memory despite being printed in a core set.
That's a tricky one Vault is seen a decent amount outside of standard, and is a key piece in a few decks. This strikes me as one that is gradually going to rise again over time, perhaps dipping a bit at rotation. If you need it, I probably wouldn't wait for it to drop in price, but I am no expert. I could easily see it rising enough that when it dips, it goes back to the levels it was at a month ago, thus not saving you a ton of money even if you were to wait all the way until rotation (which you don't want to do it sounds like)
On a related note, I don't think it will be one of those cards like restoration angel, thragtusk or hell-kite that drops down to 25% or less of its original cost at rotation.
I just feel like a lot more decks have started running land destruction MB as of late, as it really does a number on a lot of the popular greedy mana bases.
I've even considered running a single copy of tectonic edge and encroaching wastes to go with a ghost quarter and the crucibles in my GR tron build as I can always sylvan scrying or expedition map for them in those cases that I already have tron online and need something to keep an opponent off of combo mana. I realize Karn does this as well, but the thought of being able to take away two of their lands on turn 5 while I am still working to draw another threat seems really strong against many decks.
Thank you Slippery, this gives me a direction to go I think, or at least a way to sideboard/alter my plans for those match-ups as well. G/W looks like a great deck, one that I may consider if I need a new one to pick up, as it looks like it is quite good against most of the meta and can easily be adjusted according to whatever your local scene brings.
I run a mid-rang 4c gifts ungiven list (heavy on the G/B and lighter on the W/U), and I'm planning on taking it to my first Modern weekly tournament. Word is there are a couple of solid G/W hatebears lists that regularly place at this weekly. I can easily take my list more towards control, but I feel like adding mid-range pressure with earlier clocks may help me out more vs this deck. I also don't want to completely change my list to account for only 20% or so of the meta here.
I feel like my best threats may be discard (loam + ravens crime) as well as the engineered explosives + academy ruins combo. Unburial + elsh or iona also seems quite good. All of this usually requires me getting gifts off to begin with however, which I feel might be the biggest problem. Bringing in additional discard may assist with this, and is what I'm thinking.
I would love to get some thoughts from an opponents perspective though?
Inclined to agree, as sharing would open up some discussion and banter regarding additional card choices. That is what these forums fare for after all, sharing ideas for the deck. You might as well have just said stock list to begin with, as saying you don't want to share, but going out of your way to mention your spicy über leet tech sounds a bit elitist (please excuse me if I interpreted your tone wrong).
No harm in sharing, as this also allows you to take some credit if it's something new. Never a bad thing.
Is the general consensus based on the modern meta currently that discard is superior to counters due to being more proactive?
I've also been toying with the idea of running multiple chalice of the void main deck, as chalice at 1 or 2 stops a lot of decks, and I run enough dorks that I have found myself running few other 1 -2 cmc spells. Any one have experience running this MD or even in the SB? If so, how has it performed?