I think it is a mistake to evaluate unbanning a proactive card like sfm by saying there are answers. You have to compare it to the other proactive plans in the format and ask yourself if this is better than those plans and by how much. Look how death's shadow is everywhere even if just about every deck can deal with it. I am not saying shadow should be banned but we always have to consider that you won't draw your answers exactly at the right time just like how shadow or goyf just get there. With powerful proactive cards you have to consider things like how behind am I if this survives x turns or how much time does this card give me to find an answer in my 60 card deck. Is sfm too strong for modern? Who knows but saying it dies to commonly played removal is not a good reason to say a card is reasonable.
I'm up for this. Tweeting AF each day to tell him SFM and Preordain are 100% ok to be unbanned at this point.
It is easier to convince a balance and design team to ban something than unban because it is easier to predict the results of taking something away over adding something. Most digital games balance in this way from other card games to video games like starcraft. I read some time ago that game designers sometimes purposely push stats on units, cards, chacters, or whatever to see how much to tone it down while buffing something or adding a new element to the game is something they rather not do. When it comes to physical card games you do not have the option to tone dlwn something or power it up you can just add a card or take a card away and usually taking a card away is easier to predict an outcome. The problem is that this pieces of cardboard have value and no matter what you do someone will lose money but unbannjng something to later reban it will be much more disastorous than just banning something.
Also, they dont see your money for the most part if you play Modern.
Someone who actually understands that just having a sucessful business does not mean that they have money to toss around. Making a testing team for modern would be exspensive and they can still mess up like how they missed Felidar Guardian in standard. Modern does not sell new product well.
They would cite UW Control preying on Shadow decks, and probably reason that now Grixis Shadow exists, therefore blue is just fine
The bomb in all of this is Sensei's Divining Top being banned, this says that no matter how huge of a pillar a deck is in a format, that it is never safe.
To be fair miracles deserved it. Splinter Twin was better than anything when it got banned but not by the massive margin that miracles has been in legacy for such a long time. My impression of the top ban is "what took you gugs so long to do something".
I didn't say they were popular because control was good, but they were both popular formats that had top tier control decks, so I don't think the hatred for a format correlates to control being good.
People didn't like when dragons was the best deck, people didn't like when UWx rev decks where the best decks. People liked when Coco decks and Naya decks (aka creature focused decks) where the best thing to be doing. Formats shift a lot and UW rev was only on top for the time between two set releases and this is more the case with both your examples.
Even though rtr/theros was a somewhat 3 deck format a lot of people especially pros liked it. Sure Pack Rat was annoying and rev decks were there behind mono black devotion but that did not stop people from praising the skill required in that format. That was the last format I actually liked in standard until I completely switched to modern. Congrol being a top tier deck does not correlate for a bad standard format nor does a deck being ahead of others. We see that with the second point in modern. Death's Shadow is clearly the best thing to be doing in general in modern but people are enjoying modern more now than the matchup lottery it was during the dredge and aggro/combo era before the bans.
I think Turtenwald & Co. actually believed Grixis Control was a good choice. How on Earth they can believe that in the sea of DS decks is totally beyond me.
But again, those dudes are Turtenwald, Duke and Jensen and I'm not, and they are in the finals of a GP so I don't know.
Owen actually thinks grixis is one of the best decks in modern. He said it on stream some time ago.
I strongly disagree. I don't think Jace would be a problem even if Blue was good. I mean, Black would be super powerful even without Liliana, but almost no one has ever suggested banning her.
You know, it's funny people are so terrified of Jace when the only formats he's ever been shown to be overpowered in are small ones, namely Standard and 4-year Extended, which had substantially smaller card pools and a lower power level.
The Problem is that Jace is a very powerful card that CAN be busted (even if it is just a small chance) and does concentrate a lot of end-game power in one card...it is just not worth the risk. Imagine the feedback if they had to ban him in a year or so...imagine people looking at their 300-400$ playset that they can't use now. It is a very high risk - medium reward scenario, and since modern does well there is no need to take this risk!
The thing is, people made the same argument against Valakut, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.
So what though? Yeah, people are wrong about those cards. But that doesn't mean they are wrong about Jace.
The argument was "even if it is just a small chance, it could be busted!" That argument applies to literally every card that has ever been banned anywhere. It is not a good argument if it applies to anything.
Jace was banned for "political" reasons (the whole reason that Pro Tour was changed to Modern was because of fears of Caw-Blade dominating Extended) and was never shown to be overpowered in Modern. In fact, there's honestly very little reason to believe he would be, as the only places he's dominated were in much smaller formats.
I don't think it's really fair to compare, given that Jace sees Legacy/Vintage play while none of the above cards do.
Abrupt Decay sees even more play in Legacy, but Abrupt Decay doesn't seem to be a problem in Modern.
People always forget to evaluate context. Some seem to have forgetten that jace saw like no play in standard while alara block was in standard. With that said I do not think tge current modern enviornment is one that is unfavorable to jace. Jace seems like it will be a huge boon vs the deaths shadow decks and pretty ok against eldrazi when they do not have a reality smasher in hand.
Miscalculation reprint anyone? That would be a welcome addition to Modern. It might be a bit too hopeful though, even if Stoddard has been talking about swinging the pendulum to stronger answers.
That is such an eloquent answer to the soft counters turn bad problem in modern. Good counter early and when it is dead you can cycle it. Love it. Hopeful for tkhis to get reprinted in this set.
Playing the land-disruption game is perfectly fine, and I agree about its provided value.
But only when you're associating the mana-denial to a proactive plan. UW does that (playing multiple threats which can be cast in the early turns) so it can capitalize the tempo-game when the opponent is short on colored mana. It's pretty much useless, for a deck like Esper, trying to mess with the opponent's mana base without being able to gain advantage from that. You'll stall him for one, two additional turns... then? If you're under a quick attack, you're already losing. If you're not, you're already winning.
Agreex which is why I play it in a combo deck. I was responding to the merits of the uw list that was asked about. Esper is a complete draw go deck and probably the best of its kind in the format. I just wanted to spread the word on how well spreading seas and land disruption in general is doing in modern. The uw shell is kind of raising up on modo.
Hi everyone. Long time reader and fan of the thread -- you're all doing God's work.
I'm wondering what you all think of this list that just won a Modern Competitive League. Cuts the black, but otherwise very similar to the current Esper lists. How bad is it to lose Esper Charm and Fatal Push? Seems like it might have all the merits of Esper (minus Charm and Push), but with a great land disruption package and smoother mana base.
Eager to hear your thoughts!
Land disruption is probably the best form of control in the current meta. I play jeskai copycat with 4 seas and 1 tec edge and those cards are all stars in this meta. You sometimes get free wins with seas even against burn. The uw lists are doing something smart in using proactive disruption that turns into virtual card advantage by not allowing your oppoent to cast spells. It feels a lot like weisman style control which for the most part was a land destruction deck throughout most of its history.
At first, I was surprised by how strong Reality Smasher and TKS... but after Eye of Ugin got banned.. I'm fine with them now. Bant Eldrazi is just ano ther strong deck that's tier 1.. not tier 0. There are scarier decks here in my meta like Dredge and Abzan with infinite life combo.
Yea they are not feeling too good like back when eye was legal but I do feel the eldrazi archetype is geeting to almost over represented levels. Bant and eldrazi tron are for the most part the same strategy just one goes a bit mlre over the top.
DS is really only an issue because those decks run heavy discard. So your answers are stripped from your hand by the time they resolve DS. DS by itself dies to a lot of removal. Discard is often labeled as card disadvantage, but it really isnt. Im losing one card in return for you losing your current best card in hand + I know what else you have and I can guess your game plan.
That being said, Im currently 50/50 against DS decks, which is fine by me.
I disagree to an extent. Yes the discard spells strip your answers away and that is fine and the real problem comes with how little time you have to recoup your hand. Deaths shadow jund just has enough redundacy and speed steal games off of decks who have a great matchup on paper. The old jund decks did not have the consistency and speed that this version had which made the discard spells alright.
I do not think any player who is competent in terminology or strategic theory of mtg considers discard card disadvantage. Discard is tempo negative which is and always has been true which is why the playable discard spells cost 1. 2 cc discard is borderline standard unplayable even. That being said 1 mana discard is good when packed up by a mana efficient threat but when the threats are too efficient and redundantthen you have a problem and the culprit is not the discard spells themselves.
I don't think I've ever felt valakut was a bad match up, but you do have to have a clock. That's something I have said several times now, a pure reactive 'i only win by collonade' isn't gonna cut it, it's 2017.
That's not necessarily true if you run the right answers. I've seen Draw-go Esper decks systematically dismantle Valakut decks before. One of the big Esper streamers runs 3 Runed Halo and 2 Crumble to Dust that he splashes out of the Sideboard. I've even seen them win game 1s without those cards just by attacking the opponent's hand with Esper Charm, countering Titans, and surviving long enough to cast a big Sphinx Rev and then Secure the Wastes.
Yes you can win against just almost everything with control decks but you are going on an uphill battle against almost everything and more vulnerable to losing to variance without the ability to just win. I love esper control and was one of the people that contributed a lot of discussion and some of the tech way back when the wafo tapa style lists first emerged. The deck is a lot better than people think but it is not something I would recommend if you want to top 8 big events. In this valakut example so much has to go right for esper to win. When they do go right valakut looks silly but things can go horribly wrong do to almost every threat being a must answer.
I don't think constant complaints about cost should be discussed here
I understand price spikes and falls, and that's ok, but at the end of the day:
Find a new hobby if you can't afford to pay for those pricey fetchlands
If you still want to stick with modern
Play kitchen table decks and quit complaining about the prices
Freaking ridiculous that fetches, price, and them even taking a consideration to be banned.
Most of this forum doesn't even know what to complain about in modern now since it's doing well, minus some people still wanting blue to improve
Prices are absolutely up for discussion here, and it's a good thing you have no say in this because prices impact many players. The responses to my post seem overly aggressive, note that I did say I have come to terms with the prices of the format. I understand it's expensive and that is fine, we are not entitled to a cheap non-rotating format.
All I was trying to say is that I believe there should be a common sense middle ground between users like bocephus and colt. I do not believe prices should dictate anything to do with Bannings, rules or legality of any kind. I do think Wizards could fine-tune a reprint policy to make the format more accessible to other players while still retaining modern in the role that it plays for wizards.
This is the real world and prices impact how people play the game how many people play the game, and the rate at which the meta changes. So although money is immaterial to you when it comes to this Hobby I can say with great confidence that that is not the case for the majority of players. I'm noticing a common theme in my posts that I have to plea for people to not be so rude and dismissive towards players who do not share their viewpoints or Financial income brackets.
I am not living in poverty, but it has taken me years to assemble the decks that I want to play, not even Tier 1 decks. I feel like this could be improved without any detrimental effects. All I'm saying is that this does have an impact on format accessibility and should be considered in the discussions in this forum.
Prices for luxury hobbies are always a hard thing to control. Mass printings help but often people with disposable income set some of trends. If players are willing to pay current prices and demand is still high with these prices then the prices will stay at a certain range going down and up that range. What you are saying is true though. If you have a lot of real life responsibilities and a job that does not pay certain percent above the living wage of the area you live in you will have to slowly build up to decks while there are some players thant can toss a thousand dollars whenever a new metadeck surfaces.
On another note I cannot bbelieve eldrazi tron has higher numbers online than bant eldrazi. Bant eldrazi looks and has tested much better than eldrazi tron.
Honestly I feel the current state of modern is more due to the banning of probe and troll. Making the format a more of a turn 4 format rather than the turn 3 fest that was fully powered aggro combo that way more strategies are viable. Remember there was a time when twin disappeared from the metagame after the outbreak of grixis control and merfolk and the format was not this diverse. The current state of the format is the fruits of the probe and troll ban. Although dredge is criminally underplayed it is still a power house as Ari Lax says.
It is easier to convince a balance and design team to ban something than unban because it is easier to predict the results of taking something away over adding something. Most digital games balance in this way from other card games to video games like starcraft. I read some time ago that game designers sometimes purposely push stats on units, cards, chacters, or whatever to see how much to tone it down while buffing something or adding a new element to the game is something they rather not do. When it comes to physical card games you do not have the option to tone dlwn something or power it up you can just add a card or take a card away and usually taking a card away is easier to predict an outcome. The problem is that this pieces of cardboard have value and no matter what you do someone will lose money but unbannjng something to later reban it will be much more disastorous than just banning something.
Someone who actually understands that just having a sucessful business does not mean that they have money to toss around. Making a testing team for modern would be exspensive and they can still mess up like how they missed Felidar Guardian in standard. Modern does not sell new product well.
To be fair miracles deserved it. Splinter Twin was better than anything when it got banned but not by the massive margin that miracles has been in legacy for such a long time. My impression of the top ban is "what took you gugs so long to do something".
Even though rtr/theros was a somewhat 3 deck format a lot of people especially pros liked it. Sure Pack Rat was annoying and rev decks were there behind mono black devotion but that did not stop people from praising the skill required in that format. That was the last format I actually liked in standard until I completely switched to modern. Congrol being a top tier deck does not correlate for a bad standard format nor does a deck being ahead of others. We see that with the second point in modern. Death's Shadow is clearly the best thing to be doing in general in modern but people are enjoying modern more now than the matchup lottery it was during the dredge and aggro/combo era before the bans.
Owen actually thinks grixis is one of the best decks in modern. He said it on stream some time ago.
People always forget to evaluate context. Some seem to have forgetten that jace saw like no play in standard while alara block was in standard. With that said I do not think tge current modern enviornment is one that is unfavorable to jace. Jace seems like it will be a huge boon vs the deaths shadow decks and pretty ok against eldrazi when they do not have a reality smasher in hand.
That is such an eloquent answer to the soft counters turn bad problem in modern. Good counter early and when it is dead you can cycle it. Love it. Hopeful for tkhis to get reprinted in this set.
Agreex which is why I play it in a combo deck. I was responding to the merits of the uw list that was asked about. Esper is a complete draw go deck and probably the best of its kind in the format. I just wanted to spread the word on how well spreading seas and land disruption in general is doing in modern. The uw shell is kind of raising up on modo.
Land disruption is probably the best form of control in the current meta. I play jeskai copycat with 4 seas and 1 tec edge and those cards are all stars in this meta. You sometimes get free wins with seas even against burn. The uw lists are doing something smart in using proactive disruption that turns into virtual card advantage by not allowing your oppoent to cast spells. It feels a lot like weisman style control which for the most part was a land destruction deck throughout most of its history.
Yea they are not feeling too good like back when eye was legal but I do feel the eldrazi archetype is geeting to almost over represented levels. Bant and eldrazi tron are for the most part the same strategy just one goes a bit mlre over the top.
I disagree to an extent. Yes the discard spells strip your answers away and that is fine and the real problem comes with how little time you have to recoup your hand. Deaths shadow jund just has enough redundacy and speed steal games off of decks who have a great matchup on paper. The old jund decks did not have the consistency and speed that this version had which made the discard spells alright.
I do not think any player who is competent in terminology or strategic theory of mtg considers discard card disadvantage. Discard is tempo negative which is and always has been true which is why the playable discard spells cost 1. 2 cc discard is borderline standard unplayable even. That being said 1 mana discard is good when packed up by a mana efficient threat but when the threats are too efficient and redundantthen you have a problem and the culprit is not the discard spells themselves.
Yes you can win against just almost everything with control decks but you are going on an uphill battle against almost everything and more vulnerable to losing to variance without the ability to just win. I love esper control and was one of the people that contributed a lot of discussion and some of the tech way back when the wafo tapa style lists first emerged. The deck is a lot better than people think but it is not something I would recommend if you want to top 8 big events. In this valakut example so much has to go right for esper to win. When they do go right valakut looks silly but things can go horribly wrong do to almost every threat being a must answer.
Prices for luxury hobbies are always a hard thing to control. Mass printings help but often people with disposable income set some of trends. If players are willing to pay current prices and demand is still high with these prices then the prices will stay at a certain range going down and up that range. What you are saying is true though. If you have a lot of real life responsibilities and a job that does not pay certain percent above the living wage of the area you live in you will have to slowly build up to decks while there are some players thant can toss a thousand dollars whenever a new metadeck surfaces.
On another note I cannot bbelieve eldrazi tron has higher numbers online than bant eldrazi. Bant eldrazi looks and has tested much better than eldrazi tron.