One of the main reason to switch to traverse shadow is that the deck is easier to play than GDS. Tarmogoyf is reliably castable compared to the delve threats. GDS needs to balance delve threats, and snapcaster. You always walk a thin line between life and death.
I play 3 stubborn denial, as it should be done. I think that Lingering soul is better than lilianas because they are useful in grindy matchups and against aggro. They cover more matchups. Also LotV is pretty expensive.
Running some online leagues with my list from lyon I've struggled vs the BBE decks (rg eldrazi and jund mainly, the value that BBE presents is insane), which annoys me about the unbannings I was very happy with my deck and basically had found a deck I was happy to stick with but until we have a settled metagame I'm trying out some jund bbe shadow lists which have felt very good (I have madrid in a few weeks).
perhaps we need to look at GDS with a lingering souls sideboard plan again.
I have been messing around with it the last few days and the main problem that I faced was that the package just takes up so much space. I don't think the manabase can support Godless Shrine in the MB so we're looking at 4-5 slots in the SB. That's basically one third of our sideboard dedicated to Lingering Souls. That space can be used much more efficiently.
I actually like the idea of an extra land in the sideboard. A lot of the sideboard cards (sweepers, lilianas, staticaster and K-command) are 3 CMC and reaching those 3 lands by turn 3 is key. Adding an extra land goes a long way. I have not found that having those four slots for lingering is a problem yet.
By the way guys, I've been reading the last few pages and you guys are freaking the hell out because of the Jace unbanning. Slow down, it's going to be fine.
There's no need to ditch the delve creatures. Jace is 4 mana. With thoughtseize and stubborn denial they can't just slam it down on turn 4 and call it a day. Plus gurmag and Tasigur can easily come down on turn 2 and turn 3 on the play, and turn 2 on the draw safely, plenty of time to do damage and find some protection.
I also see some people wanting to play Jace too. I haven't done much testing but you can't play a 4 mana card without upping the land counts, up to 20 lands probably. Adding 2 Jace and 2 lands now you have to cut 4 cards from an already tight decklist. You can't cut threats, you can't cut stubborn denial and thoughtseize, you can't cut thoughtscour. You can maybe cut 2 Inquisition and some removals, but removals are already so important to win matchups where discard is weaker (all creatures matchups, especially humans and affinity). So you are weakening your tried and true gameplan : Protect the queen.
There's also a point to be made when adding a new card. Does it improve your bad matchups while keeping the other fair? Sure the meta is still up in the air but hey it's modern, people won't change their pet deck so fast and budget is still an issue for a lot of people so you won't see drastic changes for the moment. So what would Jace brings you in the meta we know? Does it helps against tough matchups like Affinity, Humans, UW or Jeskai Control or any decks aggressively attacking the mana base? My guess is that he doesn't, except against control deck where you could really use the extra grind package Jace is packing.
At the very moment, I would just advocate for a split 3/1 Fatal push lightning bolt and just wait and see how decks around you will change.
But Jace is just one part of the problem. The tought of my opponent cascading BEE into blood moon or Liliana of the Veil or K-command is more scary to me than Jace. BBE is also a cheaper cards that people will more easily try, so BBE decks will be on the rise quick. Also, fatal push's stocks are now a tad lower now that 3 CMC creatures are even more valuable with BBE. Lightning bolt might do a come back, in our decklist and in the meta.
All in all I think GDS will still be good going forward. It rewards tight plays and that might be one of the limiting factors for this deck. You need to get good to get the results going and that's tough.
I mean, it might be better to run 2 jvp 2 snap, who knows. But they nonbo with each other, and running more jvp opens up the 3 drop slot to allow you to to run more k-command.
Snap is also not "immense value" when it mostly just snaps back push or stubborn denial. Snap is way better in a deck running multiple kommands, cryptics, or bolt.
First I feel like the fact that JVP is not played at all in modern would argue against him. Second if don't think that snapcaster mage is "immense value" you might want to change deck. Mostly just flashbacking push and stubborn denial is actually really great and wins you game. Alright I'm done with you
One question : I've seen some lists with 2 lightning bolts in the SB and I was wondering why? Upping the count of spot removals against humans? Getting a faster clock for control matchups where you need to remove all the pushes, the battle rages and dismember ?
No. It shouldn't feel bad to draw inquisition later in the game. You just keep it in your hand until you want to deploy a threat to clear the way. You want discard T1 so 6 discard spells is the minimum.
I'm playing a grixis combo-control hybrid type deck. In some ways similar to your decks.
The biggest issue I am facing is aggro decks. I can race, but not always. I have interaction in the form of inquisitions, and thoughtseize, but those can be fairly ineffective vs decks where all the spells are redundant, like all of the low curve decks that try to vomit their hand onto the board and kill fast. burn, affinity, zoo, humans, elves, merfolk, dredge, ..
I have access to ~6-8 slots in the deck postboard, I'm thinking collective brutality? anger of the gods? engineered explosives? tasigurs/anglers? (I can support them easily), bolts/pushes, and maybe Hello all
I'm playing a grixis combo-control hybrid type deck. In some ways similar to your decks.
The biggest issue I am facing is aggro decks. I can race, but not always. I have interaction in the form of inquisitions, and thoughtseize, but those can be fairly ineffective vs decks where all the spells are redundant, like all of the low curve decks that try to vomit their hand onto the board and kill fast. burn, affinity, zoo, humans, elves, merfolk, dredge, ..
I have access to ~6-8 slots in the deck postboard, I'm thinking collective brutality? anger of the gods? engineered explosives? tasigurs/anglers? (I can support them easily), bolts/pushes(and maybe snapcasters?)? damnation? bontu's last reckoning? Pyroclasm?
It seems over here you already play a lot of those cards. So what do you reckon are the most impactful cards that can be played in those matchups?
This a death's shadow deck, so nothing to do with grixis control. I would try to post someplace else. And without a list nobody is going to be able to help you.
Bolt is a dead card more often that not. The meta change does not warrant including 3. Push is the more efficient creature removal in the format that's why it's a 4of, simple.
I do run a 3/1 push/bolt split though since I'm on the 2 Temur battle rage plan MD.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The deck plays delve threat and Snapcaster mage, it follows that Thought Scour is an essential part of the strategy. If you remove them you have to remove Tasigur and Angler and now it's not the same deck. Spare yourself the trouble.
Basically every GDS pilot I come across comments on the lack of threat density in GDS. As a way to remedy that, I see:
Seemingly no one is doing the obvious in just adding more threats in the main deck. Lili, TBR, K Command, 4th Snap, 3rd Stub, Bolts, Opts, these are all flex slots that could be 2-3 Young Pyros. With a surge in gravehate and GDS recently, it's nice to have tech against RIP and pro-black creatures too.
With some GDS decklists on one red card main these days, another option looks pretty appealing too.
That's just a bad 5C Shadow deck. If you play Tarmogoyf you want Bauble or at least some planeswalker. Also, if you go green then you can play traverse the ulvenwald as a way to find threats. This in between list is really not appealing. 5C shadow is the list with the higher threat density.
1) How many Fatal Push and how many Terminate and Lightning Bolt in the maindeck? How many in the sideboard?
2) Do you play Opt? If yes, how many pieces? How many number of lands do you prefer?
3) 4 or 3 Street Wraith?
4) Do you play Temur Battle Rage? How many pieces?
5) Young Pyromancer? How many of those?
6) Liliana Of The Veil? How many of those?
7) Sweepers? What kind of?
8) What question would you like to exist, so that you can answer it yourself- and of course if you'd like, answer it yourself!
1) I'm at 4 fatal push 1 bolt and one terminate. None in the SB. I think terminate is too slow in my meta (humans, combo, merfolk, few Eldrazi Tron)
2) 2 opt 18 lands. Because of that I'm shaving a kolaghan's command to make room for the 2nd Opt
3) 4 or 3 Street Wraith? 3 Wraith. I've learned to be a bit more patient and carefull with my life total. The card can be a dead draw later on. There's enough aggressive decks around to shave one. Temur battle rage helps you for the faster clock.
4) Do you play Temur Battle Rage? 1 MB one SB. The card helps you win unwinnable games.
5) Young Pyromancer? How many of those? 3 SB. Great against control and the mirror, and all white matchup with Rest in Peace
6) Liliana Of The Veil? How many of those? 0 I'm on the last hope plan ( AKA budget plan)
7) Sweepers? What kind of? 2 kozileks return, best sweeper against affinity, one of DS worst matchup.
8) What question would you like to exist, so that you can answer it yourself- and of course if you'd like, answer it yourself!
What are the thoughts on adding more Lightning Bolts to the deck with the current rise of Humans?
It's not about "Adding", it's about "replacing". What do you remove ? A stubborn denial, a terminate, a kholaghan's command ? The list is already super tight. It will depend on your meta. I can see cutting terminate if you're confident you won't face too many big decks.
Yeah Mishras bauble is just plain bad in Grixis death shadow.
So I want to test Young Pyromancer in the sideboard as a 3 of, as some list have been running lately.
I would bring it in against all form of control decks and white decks by removing 2 gurmag angler and a though scour. I would also bring it against Jund for sure to edge against Lili of the veil.
Lingering souls are also good against the mirror, Jund, Abzan + affinity. Ceremonious rejection are there for the Tron matchup.
2 collective brutality
1 stubborn denial
1 Kolaghan's command
1 godless shrine
3 lingering souls
2 ceremonious rejection
2 nihil spellbomb
1 izzet staticaster
2 board wipes (pyroclasm and kozileks return
As mentionned here, if I have to add staticaster, K return, K command and lingering souls for Affinity for example, I won't remove a land from MD.
I actually like the idea of an extra land in the sideboard. A lot of the sideboard cards (sweepers, lilianas, staticaster and K-command) are 3 CMC and reaching those 3 lands by turn 3 is key. Adding an extra land goes a long way. I have not found that having those four slots for lingering is a problem yet.
There's no need to ditch the delve creatures. Jace is 4 mana. With thoughtseize and stubborn denial they can't just slam it down on turn 4 and call it a day. Plus gurmag and Tasigur can easily come down on turn 2 and turn 3 on the play, and turn 2 on the draw safely, plenty of time to do damage and find some protection.
I also see some people wanting to play Jace too. I haven't done much testing but you can't play a 4 mana card without upping the land counts, up to 20 lands probably. Adding 2 Jace and 2 lands now you have to cut 4 cards from an already tight decklist. You can't cut threats, you can't cut stubborn denial and thoughtseize, you can't cut thoughtscour. You can maybe cut 2 Inquisition and some removals, but removals are already so important to win matchups where discard is weaker (all creatures matchups, especially humans and affinity). So you are weakening your tried and true gameplan : Protect the queen.
There's also a point to be made when adding a new card. Does it improve your bad matchups while keeping the other fair? Sure the meta is still up in the air but hey it's modern, people won't change their pet deck so fast and budget is still an issue for a lot of people so you won't see drastic changes for the moment. So what would Jace brings you in the meta we know? Does it helps against tough matchups like Affinity, Humans, UW or Jeskai Control or any decks aggressively attacking the mana base? My guess is that he doesn't, except against control deck where you could really use the extra grind package Jace is packing.
At the very moment, I would just advocate for a split 3/1 Fatal push lightning bolt and just wait and see how decks around you will change.
But Jace is just one part of the problem. The tought of my opponent cascading BEE into blood moon or Liliana of the Veil or K-command is more scary to me than Jace. BBE is also a cheaper cards that people will more easily try, so BBE decks will be on the rise quick. Also, fatal push's stocks are now a tad lower now that 3 CMC creatures are even more valuable with BBE. Lightning bolt might do a come back, in our decklist and in the meta.
All in all I think GDS will still be good going forward. It rewards tight plays and that might be one of the limiting factors for this deck. You need to get good to get the results going and that's tough.
First I feel like the fact that JVP is not played at all in modern would argue against him. Second if don't think that snapcaster mage is "immense value" you might want to change deck. Mostly just flashbacking push and stubborn denial is actually really great and wins you game. Alright I'm done with you
One question : I've seen some lists with 2 lightning bolts in the SB and I was wondering why? Upping the count of spot removals against humans? Getting a faster clock for control matchups where you need to remove all the pushes, the battle rages and dismember ?
This a death's shadow deck, so nothing to do with grixis control. I would try to post someplace else. And without a list nobody is going to be able to help you.
I do run a 3/1 push/bolt split though since I'm on the 2 Temur battle rage plan MD.
That's just a bad 5C Shadow deck. If you play Tarmogoyf you want Bauble or at least some planeswalker. Also, if you go green then you can play traverse the ulvenwald as a way to find threats. This in between list is really not appealing. 5C shadow is the list with the higher threat density.
1) I'm at 4 fatal push 1 bolt and one terminate. None in the SB. I think terminate is too slow in my meta (humans, combo, merfolk, few Eldrazi Tron)
2) 2 opt 18 lands. Because of that I'm shaving a kolaghan's command to make room for the 2nd Opt
3) 4 or 3 Street Wraith? 3 Wraith. I've learned to be a bit more patient and carefull with my life total. The card can be a dead draw later on. There's enough aggressive decks around to shave one. Temur battle rage helps you for the faster clock.
4) Do you play Temur Battle Rage? 1 MB one SB. The card helps you win unwinnable games.
5) Young Pyromancer? How many of those? 3 SB. Great against control and the mirror, and all white matchup with Rest in Peace
6) Liliana Of The Veil? How many of those? 0 I'm on the last hope plan ( AKA budget plan)
7) Sweepers? What kind of? 2 kozileks return, best sweeper against affinity, one of DS worst matchup.
8) What question would you like to exist, so that you can answer it yourself- and of course if you'd like, answer it yourself!
It's not about "Adding", it's about "replacing". What do you remove ? A stubborn denial, a terminate, a kholaghan's command ? The list is already super tight. It will depend on your meta. I can see cutting terminate if you're confident you won't face too many big decks.
So I want to test Young Pyromancer in the sideboard as a 3 of, as some list have been running lately.
I would bring it in against all form of control decks and white decks by removing 2 gurmag angler and a though scour. I would also bring it against Jund for sure to edge against Lili of the veil.
What have been the match ups where he shines ?