I admit I misread and over estimated Adament Negation, but stating that Pearl Lake Ancient is lack luster because it doesn't win on the spot is a weak argument. No cards in our deck win on the spot. If you want a turn 4 or 5 on the spot win you should switch to Twin or Pod. Keranos was questionable when it was first spoiled too, and yes it is a powerhouse in the grindy matchups. Ancient is uncounterable, so its pretty much guaranteed to hit the board on the opponents end step on turn 7, then you can protect it with all your mana up on your turn. The only thing to stop it is a Path to Exile after it resolves, but Wurmcoil is just as susceptible. I'm not saying its the holy grail answer or anything, just that it could be a very relevant sideboard card, especially in a deck that can tutor it. I can't count how many times I've failed to find a Batterskull when I needed it. Teachings increases your odds of finding a winner.
Just a couple of things
1. I never said that I planned on winning on Turn 4 with this deck. I stated that Modern is a Turn 4 format, which is relatively easy to see if you have played Modern for any period of time.
2. For the mana cost that Pearl requires, it just does not do enough in any matchup. Flashing it in on the endstep of Turn 7 seems good if it weren't for the fact that I could just as easily flash in Clique or Snapcaster and potentially set up for a Cruel Ultimatum. You don't want it vs BGx considering they have the ability to board in land destruction, which they will commonly do vs control decks, making this a dead card. Vs Ux based control, you can very easily get a free swing in before they remove it. The second ability is not something you want to ever activate considering the massve loss in land will cause you to lose the long game. If I wanted a tutorable flash creature that was not Clique or Caster to come out of the sideboard for what is essentially just the other Ux control decks, then I have access to cards like Venser and Teferi.
3. If you are having trouble finding Batterskull/Cruel/etc, then you could consider cutting the Teachings for Alchemy
As I wrote in my last post, here is my current rough draft of Cruel Control. Note that the meta shift for post Khans release will require me to adjust this list.
The U-B-R ratio is 20:17:14, which is probably the most that can be gotten away with in this deck. I'm currently using 6 hand disruption spells as a nice low but I could see gong up to 8 easily. The Desolate Lighthouse can most likely be swapped with a second Ghost Quarter, and I tried to include enough basics so we can function ok under Blood Moon with the potential to bounce the moon.
Another potential reason to run Batterskull main deck. Adamant Negation
Actually, I realized it still only counters non-creature spells. So probably not good in our deck, maybe good in a tarmo deck.
Pearl Lake Ancient is tutorable with teachings though, so that has potential.
I'd run Batterskull because it's good. Adamant Negation is not a good card and shouldn't even be considered for our deck.
While Pearl Lake Ancient is tutorable with teachings, it's still a lackluster card in that it does not win the game on the spot. Modern is a Turn 4 format, and things that are played at 5+ need to win on the spot. Batterskull/Wurmcoil are useable because resolving one is essentially a win vs fair decks, while a card like Keranos is usable because it generates card advantage over time in the grindy matchups it matters in.
I was hoping to post a list today but I'm still working on fitting in Think Twice in the main and Crucible of Worlds in the side. I hope to have something definitive to post by the end of the week.
[quote
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8[/quote]
Our primary source of lifegain is Batterskull, so we don't have that much. With that being said, Jund runs Bob, 8+ fetches, and has minimal life issues.
For UWR, I'd think that the equivalent of what I suggested for us would be best. The ability to fetch up basic island helps alot with with anti blood moon shenanigans.
guys lets discuss the ideal fetchland setup now that polluted delta will be legal.(the impact of this i think is really huge for so many reasons, not to mention how many times have u wanted to fetch for blood crypt with ur misty rainforest, now ull never have that problem :)! ). Personally I believe that the ideal would have us playing 4 polluted deltas since they allow us to play around blood moon the best by fetching blue and black, obviously we don't need red.( yay we can finally fetch black mana! whoohoooo) . That leaves us with our secondary fetchland which i believe is clearly scalding tarn, as much as i love bloodstained mire's art im not sure about us playing any copies of it. so probably 2-3 scalding tarns is our ideal. with that being said as others have said i think this now allows us to play 1-2 tec edges and i wouldn't be surprised if it also lets us play 1 ghost quarter as well, so 3 land destruction lands total max. This is HUGE for the deck since we can now go not only on the mana denial plan offensively but also certain matchups become a lot more favorable. Pod's gavony townships for instance become a lot less scary. This is just fantastic news for us, if i missed anything anyone please let me know (and yay Polluted Delta!! :)!!!!).
edit: not to mention scapeshift becomes a lot more favorable matchup with us having access to 2 tecs. the power of tec edge is real guys :).
4x Delta and 4x Tarn should be the starting point, similar to what is used in UWR. If you run Ultimatum, then you want 1 Ghost Quarter minimum with a total of 2-3 land destruction cards. What we run for the rest of our 26 lands is going to be heavily dependent on your color requirements and testing. For example, you could have 12 black/red spells turn 1, blue spells and terminate turn 2, and electrolyze/blightning/liliana turn 3. Given the variety of colors, you would most likely require a couple of bloodstained mires in addition to the 4x delta and 4x tarn.
I think I have the side exactly where I want it. All I ever need to side for is combo/blue decks.
One key thing that I have been examining recently is Defense Grid vs Choke. Dropping a Choke vs a blue deck usually means ggs, but it requires me to have green mana and comes down Turn 3, which sets up the kill turn. Defense Grid is not as powerful vs blue decks as Choke can be while being downright dead vs Storm, but it makes up for this by coming down a turn earlier than Choke.
No problem. I wasn't trying to start anything. I've been quietly testing the deck since a couple weeks before the banned list update (I had a hunch on Bitterblossom and jumped on a set before the price spiked).
My big complaint is with the removal suite, which is where a lot of the discussion seems to be. Electrolyze and Lightning Bolt feel so much better most of the time. I can't justify playing Go for the Throat main deck in any meta I've been a part of, as Affinity tends to be pretty popular. Smother is a fair choice, but then it just feels like a less efficient Abrupt Decay. I keep plugging away, mostly because I'm a sucker for U/B ever since the Psychatog days. I feel like this deck is sitting on the verge of greatness and just needs a little push to get over the hump. I just don't know what that push is.
I've got the same feeling. the fact that combo is such a large part of the meta means it is only a matter of time until this deck can put up bigger numbers. In terms of removal, Slaughter Pact should be a consideration. The fact it can kill when I am tapped out makes it appealing, plus the amount of lands we run and SoFaF makes the delayed cost a non-issue. Another alternative would be to splash red or green for the improved removal options. Personally, I think the mana versatility offered by a BUG base will outdo the raw power of bolt.
Don't take this as me being rude, but this list seems like it's just a much worse version of UWR control. Blue zenith is far worse than sphinx's revelation, celestial colonnade is a better late game man land than tar pit, and if you want be be full on control lightning bolt is the best removal spell at your disposal. So I'm not entirely sure why you would want to go in this direction.
That being said, I'm still not against playing some type of wrath in the main as a 1 of. I'd like EE more than BSZ or damnation personally since we can't actually remove permanents once they resolve other than cryptic bounce + counter.
I agree that as a pure control deck, UWR is better, and cards like revelation, bolt and colonade are what make it better. That being said, this deck is not a pure control deck. I would compare it more towards Caw-Blade and UW Flash. Out of all the removal options I have tried, Engineered Explosives has been my favorite removal spell. Disfigure has been utterly useless outside of T1 opening it. The 2 mana Doom Blade variations have each performed admirably, but nothing has compared to EE.
If you're going this direction it's actually nearly worth it to look at Esper. I think 3 colors is bad in this format for Faeries, but if you're looking at BSZ, Revelation is a strict upgrade and hell, you might as well go all-out and gain access to better removal and sideboard options. Think it crosses over more into a control-type deck at that point, but still think it's better than BSZ in the format.
I thought about it too, but it is a little outside of my price range and has mana that would be kinda painful to keep consistent.
So I have been trying an even more controlling version of the list with 3 mainboard Blue Sun's Zenith and 3 Think Twice and I've got to say I like how it has been testing. My issue with more standard Scion builds and even most control builds was the issue of running out of cards without the ability to cantrip and filter easily. I originally tried 1 copy of BSZ and found myself wanting to draw it quite often, to the point where 3 copies felt right.
Spells (25)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Think Twice
3 Mana Leak
4 Bitterblossom
3 Smother
2 Go for the Throat
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
Lands (24)
2 Swamp
4 Mutavault
4 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 River of Tears
4 Watery Grave
Sideboard
1 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Doom Blade
2 Spreading Seas
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Engineered Explosives
I'm not playing Glen right now because I don't think 12 mainboard Faeries is enough to play it untapped consistently. The fact that I also reveal information about my hand is also a turnoff. Once Born of the Gods is on modo, I plan on having 4 Bile Blight in the board, probably 3 main with 2 Go for the Throat. I made the main more anti aggro because of how heavy aggro is on modo and how good the nonaggro matchups are naturally. Overall, I have liked this configuration the most out of the variations I have tried, both with and without Scion of Oona.
I like Ashiok alot actually. Vs control the potential ultimate is gamebreaking, while vs aggro you can generate free blockers. I see him more as a mainboard card than a sideboard one though, as I can't see an instance where I want to board him in.
Just a couple of things
1. I never said that I planned on winning on Turn 4 with this deck. I stated that Modern is a Turn 4 format, which is relatively easy to see if you have played Modern for any period of time.
2. For the mana cost that Pearl requires, it just does not do enough in any matchup. Flashing it in on the endstep of Turn 7 seems good if it weren't for the fact that I could just as easily flash in Clique or Snapcaster and potentially set up for a Cruel Ultimatum. You don't want it vs BGx considering they have the ability to board in land destruction, which they will commonly do vs control decks, making this a dead card. Vs Ux based control, you can very easily get a free swing in before they remove it. The second ability is not something you want to ever activate considering the massve loss in land will cause you to lose the long game. If I wanted a tutorable flash creature that was not Clique or Caster to come out of the sideboard for what is essentially just the other Ux control decks, then I have access to cards like Venser and Teferi.
3. If you are having trouble finding Batterskull/Cruel/etc, then you could consider cutting the Teachings for Alchemy
As I wrote in my last post, here is my current rough draft of Cruel Control. Note that the meta shift for post Khans release will require me to adjust this list.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Batterskull
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
2 Think Twice
3 Electrolyze
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Cryptic Command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
3 Island
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mountain
2 Counterflux
2 Spreading Seas
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Combust
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Shatterstorm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Slaughter Games
The U-B-R ratio is 20:17:14, which is probably the most that can be gotten away with in this deck. I'm currently using 6 hand disruption spells as a nice low but I could see gong up to 8 easily. The Desolate Lighthouse can most likely be swapped with a second Ghost Quarter, and I tried to include enough basics so we can function ok under Blood Moon with the potential to bounce the moon.
I'd run Batterskull because it's good. Adamant Negation is not a good card and shouldn't even be considered for our deck.
While Pearl Lake Ancient is tutorable with teachings, it's still a lackluster card in that it does not win the game on the spot. Modern is a Turn 4 format, and things that are played at 5+ need to win on the spot. Batterskull/Wurmcoil are useable because resolving one is essentially a win vs fair decks, while a card like Keranos is usable because it generates card advantage over time in the grindy matchups it matters in.
I was hoping to post a list today but I'm still working on fitting in Think Twice in the main and Crucible of Worlds in the side. I hope to have something definitive to post by the end of the week.
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8[/quote]
Our primary source of lifegain is Batterskull, so we don't have that much. With that being said, Jund runs Bob, 8+ fetches, and has minimal life issues.
For UWR, I'd think that the equivalent of what I suggested for us would be best. The ability to fetch up basic island helps alot with with anti blood moon shenanigans.
4x Delta and 4x Tarn should be the starting point, similar to what is used in UWR. If you run Ultimatum, then you want 1 Ghost Quarter minimum with a total of 2-3 land destruction cards. What we run for the rest of our 26 lands is going to be heavily dependent on your color requirements and testing. For example, you could have 12 black/red spells turn 1, blue spells and terminate turn 2, and electrolyze/blightning/liliana turn 3. Given the variety of colors, you would most likely require a couple of bloodstained mires in addition to the 4x delta and 4x tarn.
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sundering Titan
2 Spellskite
Planeswalkers
4 Karn Liberated
Artifacts
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Expedition Map
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings
Lands
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Vandalblast
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Nature's Claim
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sundering Titan
3 Combust
3 Defense Grid / Choke
I think I have the side exactly where I want it. All I ever need to side for is combo/blue decks.
One key thing that I have been examining recently is Defense Grid vs Choke. Dropping a Choke vs a blue deck usually means ggs, but it requires me to have green mana and comes down Turn 3, which sets up the kill turn. Defense Grid is not as powerful vs blue decks as Choke can be while being downright dead vs Storm, but it makes up for this by coming down a turn earlier than Choke.
Homelands came out in 1995, Kamigawa block in 2004, Theros Block in 2013. That's an interval of 9 years between bad sets. Coincidence? I think not.
I've got the same feeling. the fact that combo is such a large part of the meta means it is only a matter of time until this deck can put up bigger numbers. In terms of removal, Slaughter Pact should be a consideration. The fact it can kill when I am tapped out makes it appealing, plus the amount of lands we run and SoFaF makes the delayed cost a non-issue. Another alternative would be to splash red or green for the improved removal options. Personally, I think the mana versatility offered by a BUG base will outdo the raw power of bolt.
I agree that as a pure control deck, UWR is better, and cards like revelation, bolt and colonade are what make it better. That being said, this deck is not a pure control deck. I would compare it more towards Caw-Blade and UW Flash. Out of all the removal options I have tried, Engineered Explosives has been my favorite removal spell. Disfigure has been utterly useless outside of T1 opening it. The 2 mana Doom Blade variations have each performed admirably, but nothing has compared to EE.
I thought about it too, but it is a little outside of my price range and has mana that would be kinda painful to keep consistent.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique
Spells
3 Think Twice
3 Cryptic Command
4 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
3 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Mana Leak
Other Permanents
4 Bitterblossom
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
Lands
1 Swamp
4 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Mutavault
1 Tectonic Edge
3 River of Tears
2 Spell Snare
2 Smother
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Go for the Throat
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
Creatures (11)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique
Spells (25)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Think Twice
3 Mana Leak
4 Bitterblossom
3 Smother
2 Go for the Throat
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
Lands (24)
2 Swamp
4 Mutavault
4 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 River of Tears
4 Watery Grave
Sideboard
1 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Doom Blade
2 Spreading Seas
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Engineered Explosives
I'm not playing Glen right now because I don't think 12 mainboard Faeries is enough to play it untapped consistently. The fact that I also reveal information about my hand is also a turnoff. Once Born of the Gods is on modo, I plan on having 4 Bile Blight in the board, probably 3 main with 2 Go for the Throat. I made the main more anti aggro because of how heavy aggro is on modo and how good the nonaggro matchups are naturally. Overall, I have liked this configuration the most out of the variations I have tried, both with and without Scion of Oona.
Looks pretty sweet, but looks really painful. I think you need a lifegain option in the main, probably Batterskull.
Deathrite Shaman is banned. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are unbanned.
Standard, Legacy, Vintage
No changes
Misty is fine as 5th and 6th fetches considering that you want 3 blue on 4 for Cryptic access.