Since you play a dragon, I invite you to put Crux in your main instead of End. You're playing the deck, but you definitely didn't play some alternate cards and the reason might be because you don't believe in these cards "on the paper". But play with them, and I wish you change your opinion.
15 fetchlands and only 10 targets, in my opinion, is a very wrong way to build the manabase. You lose so much life and lack fetchable targets way too often. I've been playing 25 lands myself, even with less fetchlands, and it really hurt many games I had. I'm pretty sure we need 26 lands, maybe 27.
My list wants to be able to cast Jace or Silkwrap on turn 2, so the plains and the island are necessary. I want to be able to cast Path, Languish and Crux sooner than later, and triple black happens in lategame, so the 3 swamps are also important. The 3 forests may be one too many but I like to have a target for my Nissa + an untapped target for my fetchland (aka I want to be able to get a basic forest even though I have a Nissa about to be played).
On the other hand, red is unnecessary in the main but for BTL. I realized red was almost always accidentally fetched before the BTL turn. If not fetched automatically, getting access to red is something to keep in mind, of course.
If the manabase seems clunky for some of you, just cut the Wilds and a forest and add 2 fetchlands, that's all you need to tweak here. As long as I see no issue with it, I won't make the cut though.
Point is we don't have to play more than 12 fetchlands, just drop this thoughtprocess down guys. You'd rather play a bunch of trilands if basics don't fit your "style", but don't play this symetrical manabase that looks cute on paper but is really bad in real life. I might be wrong on this one since it's the most complicated thing to build in the archetype, but I and others definitely dislike the full-fetch approach. As a comparison, Legacy has way lower curves in their decks and don't even play that many fetchlands ! It would be completely unplayable...
I think Duress is better than Negate in the main. Costs one less, black mana is easy, you can play it again with Jace and even BTL it. Also getting the information on your opponent's hand is insane, then you can sequence your spells correctly. Negate has been very bad in my experience. Dispel fits the role of protecting one of our threats better.
Burn Away is a cute one, it does a real and unique 2 for 1 in the format. The graveyard is the thing that kills us in many games.
S's Command is so strong that I think a 2nd one is playable in the SB. Maybe in the maindeck instead of the 5 mana wrath...
I think you don't play with the archetype at all and jam troll-esque comments on this topic. Hope it's not too high of a ratio in your 1233 posts. First, don't compare BTL to Pod where the pool of cards doesn't allow you to get a strong toolbox as Pod did in modern. You just "think" BTL must be used as a toolbox "so" 6+ cmc spells and PWs are not worth it.
Crux is great at sniping a hexproof dragon VS esper dragons when they full-tapped for it; it's basically the only competitive deck playing dragons right now. BB is also easier to get than WW, since we play Languish, and we may want to jam 2 black spells within a single turn. As we barely have creatures on the board at any point of the game (we wait for flip-walkers to flip, and rhinos die before we wrath anything), Crux gains value by being flexible. If you face a dragon + other creatures (Gx ramp or Mardu Dragons), I'd say you can BTL for Languish instead and deal with the remaining dragon with a removal spell. Other option is how naturally the game is going, i.e. it never happens that you get that far behind because this deck is a control deck : Removing creatures happens everytime you're opponent jams something.
You tell BTL must be a tool box but you don't want to play the only toolbox-wrath available ? Come on... Just play the deck.
effectively has the exact same casting cost and mana requirements
You're the only one in the world believing WW and BB are the "same mana requirements".
You probably think your first post above was going to shake things up, like you're some sort of archetype breaker or something, but you brought nothing new on the table but some false statements. Please come back when you have something to add, or just go play another archetype, there are plenty available !
I would say Gilt-Leaf Winnower may not be what we want in the maindeck. At 5 mana, Crux of Fate is the reset button, it deals with the target Winnower wishes to have but also with the rest. Silumgar's Command deals with PWs, and is probably the MVP in many MUs thanks to its versatility. These 2 cards are incredibly powerful for our gameplan.
On the other hand, Winnower does what ? It may kill a creature that we can reach with almost any of the cheaper removal spell we play. We get a 4/3 body that dies to our own Languishes and Radiant Flames (even though the lattest is flexible), and doesn't block very well. Sometimes it has no target, sometimes it's too slow to stop a Jace flippin or a Rhino gettin in. I'm just emphasizing the bad points because the good ones have been the reason of its inclusion.
The archetype is supposed to kill in the lategame, we now know it's a very slow-to-win deck. As it is, I'd rather play 1 Dragonlord Atarka for a way stronger Winnower impression. Greenwarden of Murasa is also a stronger iteration of Den Potector and I feel that's what the deck needs in general : something stronger than what your opponent does. That's why I dropped Hangarback Walker in the first place.
I mean, why play the lategame victory plan if we play the same cards as faster decks ? Even for the mirror-like MUs, we need to overwhelm the opponent with value. The 2 for 1 is not enough when you play a 5+ drop, you want a 3 for 1 now.
Greenwarden of Murasa is one of the play that makes my opponent reacts like "wow, eeer ok...". A 5/4 is no joke, it's a real clock. Unless they have an Abzan Charm, it's a guaranteed 3 for 1 and this kind of value ina BTL deck is by definition stronger than in any other deck. You have so many options in your graveyard that it's sometimes hard to figure out what's the right card to pick up. Even though it's just a 2 for 1, your opponent had to deal with it, in opposition to Den protector that just often can't get through blockers. Greenwarden interacts rather well with our wrath effects, which might be the play sometimes in order to get back an important card in the graveyard.
I think K Command is better than O Command because you may want to get back more than a flip-walker, dealing with a small threat is better than gaining 4 life, and discarding your opponent last spell in hand is better than drawing a fetchland. O Command wins by being able to counter a creature, while destroying a Hangarback Walker is a narrow effect. But this is at the price of 1 extra mana and I don't believe we like holding that much mana during the opponent's turn.
Renewal is easier to cast but it's 4 mana for a conditional 2 for 1. You better play 4 Rhinos + 2 Tas + 2 Greenwarden to increase it's playability.
1- I feel like we don't need Hangarback Walker at all. Have you ever noticed - for those who play delve spells or Den Protector - that Walker is never something we care about once in the graveyard ? I never hesitated exiling it for a Murderous Cut and never got it back with Portector. In my opinion, it's a sign all the other cards in the deck worth more than Walker, even Fiery Impulse for a red splash or Sultai Charm for a blue one, and god these cards may be narrow once in the midgame !
I got rid of it and I don't miss him. Removals spells are better ways to deal with the early game and fill the graveyard as soon as turn 2 to fill the grave and flip a Jace turn 3.
3- Isn't Gilt-Leaf Winnower very narrow ? It hits Ojutai, Rhino, Silumgar... and that's pretty much it. To me it's a SB card at best because it's never a 2 for 1 in many match-ups. Against Red Atarka which plays a bunch of odd creatures, at 5 mana either you're dead or you want a wrath, or life gain.
4-Den Protector is very important in versions with fewer threats. It's one of the best ways to get back Siege Rhino or a planeswalker in the graveyard and continue to apply pressure.
5- We don't need more than 3 Abzan Charms if we run Crackling Doom. Aggro decks dodge Charm, Doom kills the biggest stuff as well as Charm does, so 3 Charms + 3 Dooms is equal to having 6 Charms (removal mode) in the deck, which is many. We play 4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and probably 2-3 Den Protectors, which can get back Abzan Charms for the late game. Enough right ?
6- 14 fetchlands is too many. I personnally run 12 in a full 5C deck and it's already painful. Late game, you have like 4-5 dead topdecks under the form of fetchlands, which is really bad.I think 12 is enough from the moment you have learned the deck and knows how to sequence perfectly. Sometimes you have to slowroll some plays to get your mana right on turn 4, and that happens with 12 or 14 fetchalnds anyway.
If you're going to call someone out, use their name.
I won't take the time to search the pages for what I've already read. Do it yourself if you don't remember who wrote about it, the thread is just a few pages and you seem quite involved. I already take a few more words than you and don't take a condescendant attitude as you do, which should be enough for a respectful dialogue.
It was a mistake to keep Abzan aggro and control in the same thread last season, simply because it's the only place on the web where there's no distinction. You should be the one who steps back and realize the 2 archetypes definitely took different paths, but you don't. Don't blame people who complain about it, this thread is a mess.
splash black for Rhinos, Abzan Charms, Sorins, Utter Ends
Utter End is a bad spell, slightly overrated by players. From the moment you decide to run 4 or 5 colors (with or without BtL), don't run that expensive spell. You have cheaper options like Sultai Charm for enchantments, Crackling Doom for PWs who make tokens (Sorin, Gideon, Sarkhan Unbroken) and Ruinous Path for the other PWs.
On a side note, and as other people have already noticed, Abzan aggro and Abzan control are 2 different archetypes. It makes absolutely no sense to have them both gathered in this one topic. Hopefully someone makes a serious Primer for each of those archetypes. Nearly 20-25 cards are played in one deck and not the other, I can't believe the original writer of this topic truly believes both decks share the same approach. Please edit the original post, it's a joke as it stands.
Den Protector getting back BtL is very strong for grindy MUs like control. With 4 Charms, impacful threats on their own, SB options, I don't understand how a UW Awaken deck can be that hard to beat.
On a side note, the 4 Abzan Charms deal with lands, Gideon, dragons, so basically almost all kills control may play.
On the other hand, Red Atarka can be tricky as it's always been. Our curve is worse now, full of 3 and 4 drops. The SB needs to be quite focused on stabiling against aggro (i.e. low curve gainlife spells like Surge of Righteousness). I don't know if BtL makes the deck better than straight Abzan, but I feel like it's a top tier deck already.
Revising my opinion on Transgress the Mind, I topdecked it quite a few times and it was terrible. I'm not sure conditional discard spells are playable main deck.
Burn Away x1 looks great if you can afford red in the archetype, since the graveyard is crucial to all blue decks, various delve decks, aristocrat-ish strategies, Havens decks, and so on. Same for Radiant Flames (drawn, not brought to light, it saves a game against aggro and tokens).
Transgress the Mind is a MD card, I believe. Duress in the SB is ideal against control decks. In this vein, Den protector should be in the MD as it is in any Abzan midrange deck.
I also think Wingmate Roc is a great option MD, because you may want to increase the pressure after you attacked in certain MUs, and instead of grabbing Ojutai, get 2 flyers.
FYI guys, I've been playing against Mardu and Abzan versions that ran 4 Grim Haruspex and some numbers of Liliana, Heretical Healer. I used to think Haruspex was a medium card, but in this shell, it's actually the one card that helped my opponents refill their hands consistently.
On the other hand, Liliana was not very impressive. Yes she gave my opponents a zombie and a PW activation, but it was nothing compared to Haruspex. I'd say she's replaceable in the deck if you're not sure about her. A copy of Rally the Ancestors is just better, it puts more creatures to the board. I guess Lili can be considered as extra Rally effects, though not always easy to trigger.
Besides, cards like Collected Company and Butcher of the Horde did a great job for the lists I encountered. Butcher is especially good when it comes back in multiple copies with Rally, he's a hasty flyer (x2-4) that wins on the spot if unanswered (probably thanks to the additional triggers of Cutthroat too).
ascendancy makes the board essentially wrath proof.
The deck is already wrath-proof since Rally is the mid/late game plan. Ascendancy looks so winmore in the archetype... Once again, Grim Haruspex gives you all the CA you need, and digs into probably more cards than the other strategies.
My list splashes blue so far. Main reason is the manabase and overall good MUs.
Abzan is tempting because of Shambling Vent, Bloodsoaked Champion and Chief of the Edge (and potentially Mardu Strike Leader, Ultimate Price), but at this point, it's not a splash, which makes us play painlands and taplands, which is bad for aggro MUs. Other than that, black looks fine.
I don't see a great reason to splash red, Atarka's Command doesn't play as well as in aggro token decks (even though it remains good). The red warriors are not attractive except for Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and Zurgo Bellstriker. I tried Alesha, she's actually worse than Yasova Dragonclaw who opens the way to victory, litterally.
The U splash allows to get some good cards against control and keep an advantageous tempo. The precise card I'm thinking about is Stubborn Denial. This card alone solves all our major problems : wraths, removal shenanigans, planeswalkers. I've played the archetype a lot, and Valorous Stance is pretty weak in the controlish MUs, you save one guy for 2 precious mana while it's a synergistic deck... Worse, it doesn't dodge Foul-Tongue Invocation, Crackling Doom, Stasis Snare, Abzan Charm, etc...
Also, many creatures don't do anything powerful in these control MUs. Dragonlord Ojutai reaches the top curve I'd allow myself to play : 5 cmc. Dragonlord Dromoka is too expensive, Mastery of the Unseen less attractive than pre-rotation, and overall very slow where control opponents may now turn sideways very quickly with their wincon (name it Gideon, Ally of Zendikar). So, Ojutai is a flier that comes in a lot of MUs where you need a way to get through Woodland Wanderers, and you can use Denial as well as other instant spells to protect it.
I've been playing a list before BFZ, and one card you absolutely want is Surrak, the Hunt Caller as a 4-of.
It's the most powerful card along with Arashin Foremost.
Foremost must be coupled with unfair warriors (Surrak being one example), so get rid of Seeker of the Way who's gonna be a 2/2 bear most of the time for Heir of the Wilds, which is basically unblockable when double-striked. The 2 most aggressive plays in this archetype :
- Warden > pump turn 2 > Foremost on him turn 3;
- Tapland > Heir turn 2 > Foremost on him turn 3.
I don't believe you want RCM in the archetype, it doesn't help you cast bigger threats, like 5-drops. You ain't got many spells at 4 cmc either.
I'd bet Feat of Resistance is better than Tread Upon, as we live in a format where creatures are so big that you want to deal all your damage through them, not just a bunch. Against Dragons and Abzan aggro, against their creatures and removals, you want to force damage through and keep your relevant threats on board no matter what.
The new Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, is a nice gift to attack control from a different angle. A must, especially with Surrak who gives him haste, and a 5/5 indestructible + Surrak, and let's say + Foremost on Surrak, is pretty much game on the spot. I would play him in place of the Collected Company, which are not where we want to be imho.
afosz> your lists are really bad, sorry to tell. I don't even know where to start, you just dropped ideas without testing or real thought process behind them.
And Radiant Flames.
Since you play a dragon, I invite you to put Crux in your main instead of End. You're playing the deck, but you definitely didn't play some alternate cards and the reason might be because you don't believe in these cards "on the paper". But play with them, and I wish you change your opinion.
15 fetchlands and only 10 targets, in my opinion, is a very wrong way to build the manabase. You lose so much life and lack fetchable targets way too often. I've been playing 25 lands myself, even with less fetchlands, and it really hurt many games I had. I'm pretty sure we need 26 lands, maybe 27.
My current list :
3 swamp
3 forest
1 plains
1 island
5 Battlelands
10 Fetchlands
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Shambling Vent
Spells:
4 Bring to Light
2 Murderous Cut
1 Silumgar's Command
1 Crux of Fate
2 Languish
1 Utter End
4 Abzan Charm
1 Ruinous Path
2 Silkwrap
2 Duress
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Siege Rhino
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Silumgar's Command
1 Burn Away
3 Radiant Flames
3 Surge of Righteousness
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Dispel
My list wants to be able to cast Jace or Silkwrap on turn 2, so the plains and the island are necessary. I want to be able to cast Path, Languish and Crux sooner than later, and triple black happens in lategame, so the 3 swamps are also important. The 3 forests may be one too many but I like to have a target for my Nissa + an untapped target for my fetchland (aka I want to be able to get a basic forest even though I have a Nissa about to be played).
On the other hand, red is unnecessary in the main but for BTL. I realized red was almost always accidentally fetched before the BTL turn. If not fetched automatically, getting access to red is something to keep in mind, of course.
If the manabase seems clunky for some of you, just cut the Wilds and a forest and add 2 fetchlands, that's all you need to tweak here. As long as I see no issue with it, I won't make the cut though.
Point is we don't have to play more than 12 fetchlands, just drop this thoughtprocess down guys. You'd rather play a bunch of trilands if basics don't fit your "style", but don't play this symetrical manabase that looks cute on paper but is really bad in real life. I might be wrong on this one since it's the most complicated thing to build in the archetype, but I and others definitely dislike the full-fetch approach. As a comparison, Legacy has way lower curves in their decks and don't even play that many fetchlands ! It would be completely unplayable...
I think Duress is better than Negate in the main. Costs one less, black mana is easy, you can play it again with Jace and even BTL it. Also getting the information on your opponent's hand is insane, then you can sequence your spells correctly. Negate has been very bad in my experience. Dispel fits the role of protecting one of our threats better.
Burn Away is a cute one, it does a real and unique 2 for 1 in the format. The graveyard is the thing that kills us in many games.
S's Command is so strong that I think a 2nd one is playable in the SB. Maybe in the maindeck instead of the 5 mana wrath...
Crux is great at sniping a hexproof dragon VS esper dragons when they full-tapped for it; it's basically the only competitive deck playing dragons right now. BB is also easier to get than WW, since we play Languish, and we may want to jam 2 black spells within a single turn. As we barely have creatures on the board at any point of the game (we wait for flip-walkers to flip, and rhinos die before we wrath anything), Crux gains value by being flexible. If you face a dragon + other creatures (Gx ramp or Mardu Dragons), I'd say you can BTL for Languish instead and deal with the remaining dragon with a removal spell. Other option is how naturally the game is going, i.e. it never happens that you get that far behind because this deck is a control deck : Removing creatures happens everytime you're opponent jams something.
You tell BTL must be a tool box but you don't want to play the only toolbox-wrath available ? Come on... Just play the deck.
You're the only one in the world believing WW and BB are the "same mana requirements".
You probably think your first post above was going to shake things up, like you're some sort of archetype breaker or something, but you brought nothing new on the table but some false statements. Please come back when you have something to add, or just go play another archetype, there are plenty available !
On the other hand, Winnower does what ? It may kill a creature that we can reach with almost any of the cheaper removal spell we play. We get a 4/3 body that dies to our own Languishes and Radiant Flames (even though the lattest is flexible), and doesn't block very well. Sometimes it has no target, sometimes it's too slow to stop a Jace flippin or a Rhino gettin in. I'm just emphasizing the bad points because the good ones have been the reason of its inclusion.
The archetype is supposed to kill in the lategame, we now know it's a very slow-to-win deck. As it is, I'd rather play 1 Dragonlord Atarka for a way stronger Winnower impression. Greenwarden of Murasa is also a stronger iteration of Den Potector and I feel that's what the deck needs in general : something stronger than what your opponent does. That's why I dropped Hangarback Walker in the first place.
I mean, why play the lategame victory plan if we play the same cards as faster decks ? Even for the mirror-like MUs, we need to overwhelm the opponent with value. The 2 for 1 is not enough when you play a 5+ drop, you want a 3 for 1 now.
Greenwarden of Murasa is one of the play that makes my opponent reacts like "wow, eeer ok...". A 5/4 is no joke, it's a real clock. Unless they have an Abzan Charm, it's a guaranteed 3 for 1 and this kind of value ina BTL deck is by definition stronger than in any other deck. You have so many options in your graveyard that it's sometimes hard to figure out what's the right card to pick up. Even though it's just a 2 for 1, your opponent had to deal with it, in opposition to Den protector that just often can't get through blockers. Greenwarden interacts rather well with our wrath effects, which might be the play sometimes in order to get back an important card in the graveyard.
On the Foul-Tongue Renewal thing, it's definitely a slot that fights with Kolaghan's Command and Ojutai's Command. They offer similar effects and shouldn't overlap.
I think K Command is better than O Command because you may want to get back more than a flip-walker, dealing with a small threat is better than gaining 4 life, and discarding your opponent last spell in hand is better than drawing a fetchland. O Command wins by being able to counter a creature, while destroying a Hangarback Walker is a narrow effect. But this is at the price of 1 extra mana and I don't believe we like holding that much mana during the opponent's turn.
Renewal is easier to cast but it's 4 mana for a conditional 2 for 1. You better play 4 Rhinos + 2 Tas + 2 Greenwarden to increase it's playability.
Fiery Impulse is arguably better than the 2 cmc situational removal spells.
I hadn't catched that since I don't play him ! Very good synergy that makes me wanna play him now. ^^
A 4 Charm / 2 Doom seems like a legit split, instead of 3 / 3.
I got rid of it and I don't miss him. Removals spells are better ways to deal with the early game and fill the graveyard as soon as turn 2 to fill the grave and flip a Jace turn 3.
2- Silumgar's Command is an insane card right now. it kills Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Sarkhan Unbroken, Nissa, Sage Animist and bounce their tokens. It kills Jace, Unbound Telepath, Ob Nixilis Reignited and bounce a tapland or one of our threat we may re-use (Siege Rhino, Den Protector, A planeswalker down on loyalty).
3- Isn't Gilt-Leaf Winnower very narrow ? It hits Ojutai, Rhino, Silumgar... and that's pretty much it. To me it's a SB card at best because it's never a 2 for 1 in many match-ups. Against Red Atarka which plays a bunch of odd creatures, at 5 mana either you're dead or you want a wrath, or life gain.
4- Den Protector is very important in versions with fewer threats. It's one of the best ways to get back Siege Rhino or a planeswalker in the graveyard and continue to apply pressure.
5- We don't need more than 3 Abzan Charms if we run Crackling Doom. Aggro decks dodge Charm, Doom kills the biggest stuff as well as Charm does, so 3 Charms + 3 Dooms is equal to having 6 Charms (removal mode) in the deck, which is many. We play 4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and probably 2-3 Den Protectors, which can get back Abzan Charms for the late game. Enough right ?
6- 14 fetchlands is too many. I personnally run 12 in a full 5C deck and it's already painful. Late game, you have like 4-5 dead topdecks under the form of fetchlands, which is really bad.I think 12 is enough from the moment you have learned the deck and knows how to sequence perfectly. Sometimes you have to slowroll some plays to get your mana right on turn 4, and that happens with 12 or 14 fetchalnds anyway.
I won't take the time to search the pages for what I've already read. Do it yourself if you don't remember who wrote about it, the thread is just a few pages and you seem quite involved. I already take a few more words than you and don't take a condescendant attitude as you do, which should be enough for a respectful dialogue.
It was a mistake to keep Abzan aggro and control in the same thread last season, simply because it's the only place on the web where there's no distinction. You should be the one who steps back and realize the 2 archetypes definitely took different paths, but you don't. Don't blame people who complain about it, this thread is a mess.
Utter End is a bad spell, slightly overrated by players. From the moment you decide to run 4 or 5 colors (with or without BtL), don't run that expensive spell. You have cheaper options like Sultai Charm for enchantments, Crackling Doom for PWs who make tokens (Sorin, Gideon, Sarkhan Unbroken) and Ruinous Path for the other PWs.
On a side note, and as other people have already noticed, Abzan aggro and Abzan control are 2 different archetypes. It makes absolutely no sense to have them both gathered in this one topic. Hopefully someone makes a serious Primer for each of those archetypes. Nearly 20-25 cards are played in one deck and not the other, I can't believe the original writer of this topic truly believes both decks share the same approach. Please edit the original post, it's a joke as it stands.
Den Protector getting back BtL is very strong for grindy MUs like control. With 4 Charms, impacful threats on their own, SB options, I don't understand how a UW Awaken deck can be that hard to beat.
On a side note, the 4 Abzan Charms deal with lands, Gideon, dragons, so basically almost all kills control may play.
On the other hand, Red Atarka can be tricky as it's always been. Our curve is worse now, full of 3 and 4 drops. The SB needs to be quite focused on stabiling against aggro (i.e. low curve gainlife spells like Surge of Righteousness). I don't know if BtL makes the deck better than straight Abzan, but I feel like it's a top tier deck already.
Revising my opinion on Transgress the Mind, I topdecked it quite a few times and it was terrible. I'm not sure conditional discard spells are playable main deck.
Transgress the Mind is a MD card, I believe. Duress in the SB is ideal against control decks. In this vein, Den protector should be in the MD as it is in any Abzan midrange deck.
I also think Wingmate Roc is a great option MD, because you may want to increase the pressure after you attacked in certain MUs, and instead of grabbing Ojutai, get 2 flyers.
On the other hand, Liliana was not very impressive. Yes she gave my opponents a zombie and a PW activation, but it was nothing compared to Haruspex. I'd say she's replaceable in the deck if you're not sure about her. A copy of Rally the Ancestors is just better, it puts more creatures to the board. I guess Lili can be considered as extra Rally effects, though not always easy to trigger.
Besides, cards like Collected Company and Butcher of the Horde did a great job for the lists I encountered. Butcher is especially good when it comes back in multiple copies with Rally, he's a hasty flyer (x2-4) that wins on the spot if unanswered (probably thanks to the additional triggers of Cutthroat too).
The deck is already wrath-proof since Rally is the mid/late game plan. Ascendancy looks so winmore in the archetype... Once again, Grim Haruspex gives you all the CA you need, and digs into probably more cards than the other strategies.
Outpost Siege seems good on the paper, it can deal with creatures (what Impact Tremors and Abzan Ascendancy can't do) and helps in the mirror.
4 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Arashin Foremost
4 Yasova Dragonclaw
2 Den Protector
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Warden of the First Tree
2 Mardu Woe-Reaper
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Feat of Resistance
2 Stubborn Denial
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Prairie Stream
2 Canopy Vista
4 Plains
6 Forest
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Den Protector
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Archangel of Tithes
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
3 Suspension Field
2 Arashin Cleric
2 Surge of Righteousness
My list splashes blue so far. Main reason is the manabase and overall good MUs.
Abzan is tempting because of Shambling Vent, Bloodsoaked Champion and Chief of the Edge (and potentially Mardu Strike Leader, Ultimate Price), but at this point, it's not a splash, which makes us play painlands and taplands, which is bad for aggro MUs. Other than that, black looks fine.
I don't see a great reason to splash red, Atarka's Command doesn't play as well as in aggro token decks (even though it remains good). The red warriors are not attractive except for Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and Zurgo Bellstriker. I tried Alesha, she's actually worse than Yasova Dragonclaw who opens the way to victory, litterally.
The U splash allows to get some good cards against control and keep an advantageous tempo. The precise card I'm thinking about is Stubborn Denial. This card alone solves all our major problems : wraths, removal shenanigans, planeswalkers. I've played the archetype a lot, and Valorous Stance is pretty weak in the controlish MUs, you save one guy for 2 precious mana while it's a synergistic deck... Worse, it doesn't dodge Foul-Tongue Invocation, Crackling Doom, Stasis Snare, Abzan Charm, etc...
Also, many creatures don't do anything powerful in these control MUs. Dragonlord Ojutai reaches the top curve I'd allow myself to play : 5 cmc. Dragonlord Dromoka is too expensive, Mastery of the Unseen less attractive than pre-rotation, and overall very slow where control opponents may now turn sideways very quickly with their wincon (name it Gideon, Ally of Zendikar). So, Ojutai is a flier that comes in a lot of MUs where you need a way to get through Woodland Wanderers, and you can use Denial as well as other instant spells to protect it.
The SB has some issues I guess.
It's the most powerful card along with Arashin Foremost.
Foremost must be coupled with unfair warriors (Surrak being one example), so get rid of Seeker of the Way who's gonna be a 2/2 bear most of the time for Heir of the Wilds, which is basically unblockable when double-striked. The 2 most aggressive plays in this archetype :
- Warden > pump turn 2 > Foremost on him turn 3;
- Tapland > Heir turn 2 > Foremost on him turn 3.
I don't believe you want RCM in the archetype, it doesn't help you cast bigger threats, like 5-drops. You ain't got many spells at 4 cmc either.
I'd bet Feat of Resistance is better than Tread Upon, as we live in a format where creatures are so big that you want to deal all your damage through them, not just a bunch. Against Dragons and Abzan aggro, against their creatures and removals, you want to force damage through and keep your relevant threats on board no matter what.
The new Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, is a nice gift to attack control from a different angle. A must, especially with Surrak who gives him haste, and a 5/5 indestructible + Surrak, and let's say + Foremost on Surrak, is pretty much game on the spot. I would play him in place of the Collected Company, which are not where we want to be imho.