Depending on the mix of casting costs, I would think a mana base for this deck SHOULD look like:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Mana Confluence
8x Forest / 7x Plains or vice versa
Omg ! Sorry but no. Don't advise people to play 4 Mana confluences, it's just a very very bad idea. It sounds like an advice before Conf' was released a couple of years ago. Temples are needed, period. Conf' can't be a 4-of here, period. That's why mono-colored aggro decks work better than other aggros, it's because their manabase is painless and this is key in the aggro mirrors (and actually other MUs too).
Each tapped land we add is painful, each mana conf' as well. Specifically here, GW aggro can't be as fast as low-curve aggro decks, so with a curve topping at 4-5, playing taplands is less painful than mana conf'. Adding a 5th tapped land like Blossoming Sands may be necessary to lower color deaths in white-intensive decks.
There are cards not good in draft that can fill a role in a deck. I don't really understand the logic behind basing a card's value in one format correlates to another
Well it often correlates between limited and standard. It's rare to see bad limited cards shine in standard, put in other words. It's definitely not a card I would ever play over Elvish Mystic. I would play Mystic in a counters shell as in my morph shell. The reason behind my list is I tried with and without, and realized how important Mystic was to reach the 4th and 5th mana, so important to make the deck run (aka play 2 things a turn, like a spell and an ability).
If you're playing those 2 cards why not just go GW devotion? They're considerably better there.
Yes they are, and I tried them already. In a an aggro shell though, they provide resiliency and CA that's really good against midrange and control, where a counters shell flinches more easily. I understand the counters shell is attracting, but it's not necessarily what Selesnya aggro is, or the only way we should develop this thread.
Mastery is just getting too much hype. It's easily hated out now
... but you can play it anytime and it has to be answered. It's great against control and red decks. I've been very disappointed by Inspiring Call in those MUs because you never have enough living creatures to draw a decent amount of cards. And it's a bad topdeck when you have a weak-to-neutral board.
your build faces the same issues of double white in Brimaz, Ana, and Spear, playing against Deathmist, Mystic and Warden
Yep, and it doesn't satisfy me. I could see Ana be a 1-of like Soulfire Grand Master in WR aggro, since I only really care of her when I have manifest engines on the board. She's always clunky in the opening hand. Always. So you wait for turn 2 to play her, then turn 3 play your 1 drops...
Brimaz/Spear can be Boon Satyr, and I actually think I like the idea because of Roast, which doesn't care of these white cards.
Your list is cool! But I think it's shying away from our idea of counters a lot and moving towards a GW devotion strategy
There's no devotion really, but my take could actually be too much in between 2 strategies, indeed.
I'd like to point out it's very risky to play very bad cards just for the purpose of synergy, since most synergies I've seen in this thread are weak in the format, or rely on high variance, or can be easily disrupted.
I understand some players want to turn Avatar of the Resolute into a buffed Tarmogoyf, but playing cards that aren't even played in draft (like Servant of the Scale) is not the way to go for a start. Let's play cards that have already seen constructed play, not unplayables like Daghatar, Daxos, Quartermasters, etc...
The first thing to choose is whether we're based G or W. If we're based G, we can't play 4 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit, and I would say we can't play more than 2 ? And perhaps the right number is 0. I mean, Hall of Triumph for Gw or Spear of Heliod as 1-ofs will be better in the curve and better against removals. Don't get me wrong, I like Ana, but she's been awful in opening hands with Mystic, a tapped land or a fetchland. I wouldn't even consider her in the same deck as Avatar.
Let's take a look at new cards. I don't think Deathmist Raptor has been quoted, while he has good resiliency in a build with morph / manifest spells (remember Vengevine ?). I've tested it along with 4 Den Protector, 3 Mastery of the Unseen and 2 Whisperwood Elemental, and it's been disgustingly great. Long story short, if your opponent doesn't have a mass removal spell, you have an almost unbreakable loop. Den Protector is a engine card, as long as you reach 5 mana. You can loop it with another Den Protector in your graveyard, and if there's some Raptor sleeping, it/they instantly come back.
Collected Company is certainly an attractive spell, but might be a 4-mana trap. Not for every aggro build. I would keep it as a 2-3x for a monoG stompy with 30+ creatures, not less. Inspiring Call only works in a full-counter deck, otherwise it's a very bad card. I think Mastery is better in that slot in most decks, since we get CA no matter what the board state is.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
4 power creatures seem hard to get compared to the GRx aggro decks already existing. However, Deathtouch is good. Not sure it's better than other 2-drops.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
He's fine, but I think there are better 4-drops. I'd rather play Citadel Siege or other creatures.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
Depends on the build (4 copies of a 4-drop in an aggro build is a lot). Really good if you run Ana. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is more aggressive and powerful right away, but I'm afraid he'll die too easily with Roast and Stoke the Flames.
I've been playing a lot blue versions of Pod, so I can tell you about the cards you mention:
Leave Coiling Oracle out of your lists. If you run white, Voice is always gonna be better and if you don't, Tarmo ftw (or any truly good 2-drop).
Venser is worse than many other 4-drops and serves close to no purpose in modern. If you play blue, go for GEA, Kira, Metamorph, Image, Sower because these cards do something MD. Even Spiketail Drakeling sounds better than Venser to me. That's to say how I believe Venser is obsolete in the format.
Instead of looking for bad 2-drops, just cut a Resto and play Murderous Redcap. Many Kiki Pod lists used to run 3 Restos and it was just fine.
If you splash blue, just netdeck a Kiki Pod list.
Oh and I played your list a little bit, and 2 things : you NEED a Sacred Foundry. I naively tried that in Abzan (no Shrine), and it's as bad as it is here. Also Grove of the Burnwillows is better than any non-shockland you have in your list. Kiki Pod used to play 2-4 copies.
I like the way you tweaked your main deck. 2 Gavony is better than the split with a somewhat useless Kessig. More forests overall, and a focus on red sources. And you got rid of the redundant extra mana dorks.
About Gavony though, we can ask ourselves whether it's worth it in the Kiki shell. Or let's say, better than manlands, Slayers' Stronghold or land destruction.
Twin is unfavorable and it's the deck to beat right now. I would add a path in the main. An easy cut would be the 2nd Ooze. I know you disagree with this though.
In the side, I don't understand why you don't run Reclamation Sage instead of 1 Wear or 1 Qasali. With Resto the Sage is miles better, and you can tuto him. No excuse.
Bob works perfectly in certain builds with creatures and high disruption, so that your opponents' removals may lack quickly. He was better when DRS was legal though, as she also was a premium target for removals.
Right now, red decks are everywhere and Bob has no chance to survive. And because of Souls being hated, -1/-1 effects in non-red decks also punish you for playing Bob.
There's a reason why most Jund and Abzan don't run him. The best option seems to have powerful topdecks, so you won't need CA engines. That's why we play natural CA spells like Lingering Souls.
Whisper is good only if you play a Mentor / Pyro version, even though there might be a better non-creature CA card for that kind of deck. Phyrexian Arena is a worthy idea. I thought of this card too but havent' found the slot for it yet.
Zenith is pretty bad, it always hurt your guys. Engineered Explosives man, it wraths or tempo out your opponents plays at 1 and 2 cmc. Merfolk, Affinity, Bogles, Infect, Prison, Rack, Tarmo, etc... I'm not sure Bonfire of the damned is worth mentioning but I would say it's still better than Zenith. Drown is pretty good, Anger of the Gods is probably better in your deck, no ?
So far, after playing with several versions of the archetype, I gotta say my results were better in the Butcher + Brimaz shell. And I'm speaking as a Monastery Mentor's believer... I met way too much bolt effects and red wraths to imagine tokens being in the best spot right now.
As for the 2+ cmc discarding effects, I tried Blightning, then Liliana, then Tidehollow Sculler as 3-ofs. Sculler has been the best so far (at my big surprise since I hated that card in Pod). Crackling Doom cuts one advantage Lili has by her side, so she loses a bit of her charm ; and Blightning never finishes a hand unless the list is built for a full-discard plan (12+ spells). However it burns for 3, and this is very relevant if we're on the burn plan, and probably better than Lili if we play Doom as well.
In a build with x/4s though, Sculler has been better for me: it steals bolts and decays, pacts and twins...
About PWs, in the Brimaz / Butcher version, I tend to prefer Elspeth, Knight-Errant for it insures the faster clock.
Butcher seems better positioned than Hero of Bladehold (that I do love) : lifelink is key, evasion is key, tempo is key. I thought 4 Butchers were too many, but they're not.
Kher Keep is very bad on the other hand. The 2nd Lavaclaw Reaches has always been a pain in the butt too. 1 is perfectly fine, 2 looks too greedy for not enough payback, in a 23 lands version at least.
- I've been slightly unimpressed with Monastery Swiftspear along with the burn package. She's fine though, don't get me wrong. Seeker of the Way is just stronger the same way Monastery Mentor is stronger than Young Pyromancer, tempo advantages put aside. The lifelink ability is very strong against Burn and other aggro decks. It's actually necessary since we always shock ourselves for tempo purposes.
- I think it's a bad idea to go full tokens, as this strategy doesn't work in high levels of competition. As Mentor is insanely strong if not dealt with, I can't see myself downgrading it to Young Pyromancer. Choices and concessions made here.
The choice of both Mentor and Seeker make the build very consistent, as we want to play spells during our turn, and we can get perfect value out of sorcery speed spells. Then it naturally makes sense to play Night's Whisper over Dark Confidant, Dreadbore over Terminate, and keep our removal spells for the combat on our turn.
- Burn is a real plan of victory. This is how we win a good portion of the games. Mentor + prowess Monks attacking with some burn back-up is often 10+ damage in a turn, which races many decks. This is how we beat Tron. At 22 lands (or less for the greediest players), we can't afford 4 Crackling Doom when we already play 8 other 3+ cmc drops. But the card is the only out to a lethal Bogles, Infect, Emrakul or Primeval Titan. You can also attack through a Wurmcoil Engine. Grim Lavamancer helps to the burn plan, and is a strong yet fragile removal engine.
- Night's Whisper is a great card in the deck as it doesn't just trigger prowess when you want to, but it gives you that land drop you need. Bob may be arguably better in a Butcher shell with 23-24 lands and where toughnesses differ enough to stop board wipes to finish a game. We also want multiple Prowess activations, so playing Whisper into any spell is exactly what the deck wants.
- Utiliy Lands: Vault of the Archangel is not really a 2nd Sorin. I thought I didn't want it but deathtouch actually helps against fatties, which we may want to deal with by combat while we keep burn spells for the opponent or PWs. Slayers' Stronghold is very good at pushing through damage with flying tokensor on an empty board. It's cheap and makes your opponent's blocks pretty difficult. Also with Sorin and Seeker, we can guess lifelink triggers like the land. Fits to the overall aggro plan.
- I tend to agree with some opinions on this thread, about Hide // Seek being an insane versatile card. Exile Tron, Valakut, Shackles, Batterskull, etc... and get information on your opponent's SB strategy. Way easier to play than Slaugter Games, disgustingly too expensive. Deflecting Palm is a good card but is way too conditionnal to make the cut in this specific slot.
- Tron and Scapeshift are such difficult MUs that Molten Rain seems okay to me. It fits to the burn plan, which is the best strategy for these MUs. I had tried Blood Moon, but it hurt my own manabase and the opponent can actually deal with it, including Bloom Titan with Seal of Primordium, and other 3-color decks with Abrupt Decay.
On a side note for Tron and Affinity, I found Stony Silence to be underwhelming. Overrated card ? Too reactive ?
- Engineered Explosives is great against any aggro, including the close-to-mirror MUs. I'm surprised the card isn't quoted more often, it answers a few MUs I read were problematic in this topic. It's game against Merfolks.
- I'm not sure about the PWs, the 2 slots are actually in test. I don't know what the deck needs, and my experience in the Abzan MU is pretty poor so far (nobody plays that deck or what ?!). What do you guys use Ajani for ?
Eight devotion versus seven means nothing when you get more devotion consistency by removing red entirely. Not to mention that Singing Bell Strike is better than all of them anyways since it reduces the combo to 2 cards versus 3. I swear it seems as if some people haven't even tried the alternate versions without their beloved, and subpar, Temur Ascendancy.
Ok all this part is wrong man, just read yourself again.
> 8 VS 7 is actually something that matters. We're talking about devotion, and it's no different with mana overall. We all lose games because we can't cast a Hornet Queen, Ugin, or even 2 permanents in a single turn in time. In many games, going off with the combo won't be able because of that 1 extra devotion, and we'll lose. Tempo loss is not as punishing in standard as it is in modern, legacy and vintage, but it still is in some critical situations.
> By playing Ascendancy, you actually play a green card, while Chariot gives no devotion, so Ascendancy is more consistent than Chariot in terms of Devotion synergy. Plus Ascendancy is CA and tempo upside.
> Cutting red (just Ascendancy here, so it's also cutting... blue) doesn't make the deck better, period. It's nearly as innacurate as saying "don't play Domri if you play other non-creature spells in the deck". The manabase in this format is currently quite able to support 3 color-decks. Here, it's a monoG with a double minimal splash. Look at the manabase, there's no way you can't cast 1 of these 3 splashed cards in a usual game.
> Ascendancy is a better card - out of the combo - than Singing Bell Strike. Singing Bell Strike doesn't give devotion, doesn't give CA, doesn't give haste, it is a very bad removal spell, and hits the bin as soon as your opponent removes your dork, no matter whether you save it with Sabertooth.
I'm not defending my "beloved" Ascendancy, I don't like the card that much. But it's playable outta combo as Jeskai Ascendancy is.
Reducing the combo to two colors and two cards makes it A) harder to disrupt and anticipate, and B) it leaves more spaces open in the deck to include protective pieces to guard our board from disruption.
Ok 2 colors, well, this is off in the first place. Temur Ascendancy is a 3-of and is the only splashed card in that version, so we can barely call that a 3 color deck. The U splash is heavier from the moment you want to play more than 3 blue cards. I hope it's clear in your mind.
A) Wrong. Your creatures don't have hexproof, so the combo is easy to disrupt anyway : they destroy one piece and it's over, no matter whether you have 2 or 3 pieces to assemble. And you still need a huge load of devotion permanents into play to go off, which means any removal on any permanent can stop the combo, and that also means our opponent usually has a bunch of turns to see it coming.
Besides, time when players didn't know the combo is over. Now everybody's prepared. No more stolen games thanks to an opponent's shameful misplay.
B) 3 Ascendancies is not what I call a waste of slots... Satyrs have always been played, and Sabertooth is just a great creature for G devo even without the combo. You want to play Singing Bell Strike and a few counterspells, I'll just say : go for it and bring us some honest feedback !
Do you believe guys the Eidolon package is worth it ? Other options are available for a better midrange plan. Like Xenagos, the Reveler: he's an extra ramp tool and his ultimate gets to find the combo pieces. He's always been great in GR devo.
About Chariot of Victory, you need 8 devotion instead of 7, it's not worth it. Plus the Chariot doesn't provide devotion, which means 1 more GG permanent on the battlefield compared to Temur Ascendancy.
About Hammer of Purphoros, it doesn't provide devotion either and is legendary, which gives you dead draws in the game. Ascendancy can stack and let you draw 2-3 cards per 4/x creature ETB.
Stop looking for a better combo piece, Ascendancy is the best one.
Rocs and Coursers MD + Disciples in the SB seem perfect ! Plus all these cards gain you life earlier than Soul. You probably need to gain life early in the game, however Soul's ability resolves at the soonest from the graveyard if discarded by your opponent (because no need to cast him first). It sounds very unlikely to occur consistantly enough. :/
Elspeth deals with Heroic guys, Doomwake Giants and Stormbreath Dragons right away, stabilizes a monoX aggro board, and is a real threat VS control. I'm not sure she's worth a comparison with an almost unplayable Soul...
About the 4th Hydra, I feel it can take the place of the 4th Roc.
I already see myself play 3 Hydras, and only 3 for it's bad against super aggro decks like monoB, Wx Heroic, MonoR, etc... which seems to be a decent part of the metagame. But I completely know your feeling : it's been the best mid/late game creature for the archetype so far. I edit the post.
Concerning Soul of Theros, what uses do you imagine for him ? I had tried it in a GW shell these last months and was very disappointed. He doesn't do anything when it comes into play (12 mana is way too much), and doesn't have synergy with Sabertooth... he's just a Poluk-like body that can do something if your opponent has nothing. In the same situation, I'd rather have a PW on the board.
As others have stated, the SB wants cards like Nylea's Disciple and Reclamation Sage to abuse Sabertooth's activations. The cat also likes End Hostilities as he can survive them and save part of the team, which happen to like being recast !
Last note, I don't believe we have much room for more mana guys, like Voyaging Satyr, as Frontier Siege already takes the slots of ramp tools. I found only 3 slots so far for Genesis Hydra, but some numbers can be tweaked.
Omg ! Sorry but no. Don't advise people to play 4 Mana confluences, it's just a very very bad idea. It sounds like an advice before Conf' was released a couple of years ago. Temples are needed, period. Conf' can't be a 4-of here, period. That's why mono-colored aggro decks work better than other aggros, it's because their manabase is painless and this is key in the aggro mirrors (and actually other MUs too).
Each tapped land we add is painful, each mana conf' as well. Specifically here, GW aggro can't be as fast as low-curve aggro decks, so with a curve topping at 4-5, playing taplands is less painful than mana conf'. Adding a 5th tapped land like Blossoming Sands may be necessary to lower color deaths in white-intensive decks.
Unless you play a mono-colored deck, can this be serious in the format ?
Well it often correlates between limited and standard. It's rare to see bad limited cards shine in standard, put in other words. It's definitely not a card I would ever play over Elvish Mystic. I would play Mystic in a counters shell as in my morph shell. The reason behind my list is I tried with and without, and realized how important Mystic was to reach the 4th and 5th mana, so important to make the deck run (aka play 2 things a turn, like a spell and an ability).
Yes they are, and I tried them already. In a an aggro shell though, they provide resiliency and CA that's really good against midrange and control, where a counters shell flinches more easily. I understand the counters shell is attracting, but it's not necessarily what Selesnya aggro is, or the only way we should develop this thread.
... but you can play it anytime and it has to be answered. It's great against control and red decks. I've been very disappointed by Inspiring Call in those MUs because you never have enough living creatures to draw a decent amount of cards. And it's a bad topdeck when you have a weak-to-neutral board.
Yep, and it doesn't satisfy me. I could see Ana be a 1-of like Soulfire Grand Master in WR aggro, since I only really care of her when I have manifest engines on the board. She's always clunky in the opening hand. Always. So you wait for turn 2 to play her, then turn 3 play your 1 drops...
Brimaz/Spear can be Boon Satyr, and I actually think I like the idea because of Roast, which doesn't care of these white cards.
There's no devotion really, but my take could actually be too much in between 2 strategies, indeed.
Glad to share opinions anyway.
Meriam's list is very interesting.
I understand some players want to turn Avatar of the Resolute into a buffed Tarmogoyf, but playing cards that aren't even played in draft (like Servant of the Scale) is not the way to go for a start. Let's play cards that have already seen constructed play, not unplayables like Daghatar, Daxos, Quartermasters, etc...
The first thing to choose is whether we're based G or W. If we're based G, we can't play 4 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit, and I would say we can't play more than 2 ? And perhaps the right number is 0. I mean, Hall of Triumph for Gw or Spear of Heliod as 1-ofs will be better in the curve and better against removals. Don't get me wrong, I like Ana, but she's been awful in opening hands with Mystic, a tapped land or a fetchland. I wouldn't even consider her in the same deck as Avatar.
Let's take a look at new cards. I don't think Deathmist Raptor has been quoted, while he has good resiliency in a build with morph / manifest spells (remember Vengevine ?). I've tested it along with 4 Den Protector, 3 Mastery of the Unseen and 2 Whisperwood Elemental, and it's been disgustingly great. Long story short, if your opponent doesn't have a mass removal spell, you have an almost unbreakable loop. Den Protector is a engine card, as long as you reach 5 mana. You can loop it with another Den Protector in your graveyard, and if there's some Raptor sleeping, it/they instantly come back.
Collected Company is certainly an attractive spell, but might be a 4-mana trap. Not for every aggro build. I would keep it as a 2-3x for a monoG stompy with 30+ creatures, not less. Inspiring Call only works in a full-counter deck, otherwise it's a very bad card. I think Mastery is better in that slot in most decks, since we get CA no matter what the board state is.
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Den Protector
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Valorous Stance
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands:
2 Blossoming Sands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
6 Plains
7 Forest
4 power creatures seem hard to get compared to the GRx aggro decks already existing. However, Deathtouch is good. Not sure it's better than other 2-drops.
He's fine, but I think there are better 4-drops. I'd rather play Citadel Siege or other creatures.
Depends on the build (4 copies of a 4-drop in an aggro build is a lot). Really good if you run Ana. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is more aggressive and powerful right away, but I'm afraid he'll die too easily with Roast and Stoke the Flames.
Leave Coiling Oracle out of your lists. If you run white, Voice is always gonna be better and if you don't, Tarmo ftw (or any truly good 2-drop).
Venser is worse than many other 4-drops and serves close to no purpose in modern. If you play blue, go for GEA, Kira, Metamorph, Image, Sower because these cards do something MD. Even Spiketail Drakeling sounds better than Venser to me. That's to say how I believe Venser is obsolete in the format.
Instead of looking for bad 2-drops, just cut a Resto and play Murderous Redcap. Many Kiki Pod lists used to run 3 Restos and it was just fine.
If you splash blue, just netdeck a Kiki Pod list.
Oh and I played your list a little bit, and 2 things : you NEED a Sacred Foundry. I naively tried that in Abzan (no Shrine), and it's as bad as it is here. Also Grove of the Burnwillows is better than any non-shockland you have in your list. Kiki Pod used to play 2-4 copies.
About Gavony though, we can ask ourselves whether it's worth it in the Kiki shell. Or let's say, better than manlands, Slayers' Stronghold or land destruction.
Twin is unfavorable and it's the deck to beat right now. I would add a path in the main. An easy cut would be the 2nd Ooze. I know you disagree with this though.
In the side, I don't understand why you don't run Reclamation Sage instead of 1 Wear or 1 Qasali. With Resto the Sage is miles better, and you can tuto him. No excuse.
Right now, red decks are everywhere and Bob has no chance to survive. And because of Souls being hated, -1/-1 effects in non-red decks also punish you for playing Bob.
There's a reason why most Jund and Abzan don't run him. The best option seems to have powerful topdecks, so you won't need CA engines. That's why we play natural CA spells like Lingering Souls.
Whisper is good only if you play a Mentor / Pyro version, even though there might be a better non-creature CA card for that kind of deck. Phyrexian Arena is a worthy idea. I thought of this card too but havent' found the slot for it yet.
Zenith is pretty bad, it always hurt your guys. Engineered Explosives man, it wraths or tempo out your opponents plays at 1 and 2 cmc. Merfolk, Affinity, Bogles, Infect, Prison, Rack, Tarmo, etc... I'm not sure Bonfire of the damned is worth mentioning but I would say it's still better than Zenith. Drown is pretty good, Anger of the Gods is probably better in your deck, no ?
As for the 2+ cmc discarding effects, I tried Blightning, then Liliana, then Tidehollow Sculler as 3-ofs. Sculler has been the best so far (at my big surprise since I hated that card in Pod). Crackling Doom cuts one advantage Lili has by her side, so she loses a bit of her charm ; and Blightning never finishes a hand unless the list is built for a full-discard plan (12+ spells). However it burns for 3, and this is very relevant if we're on the burn plan, and probably better than Lili if we play Doom as well.
In a build with x/4s though, Sculler has been better for me: it steals bolts and decays, pacts and twins...
About PWs, in the Brimaz / Butcher version, I tend to prefer Elspeth, Knight-Errant for it insures the faster clock.
Butcher seems better positioned than Hero of Bladehold (that I do love) : lifelink is key, evasion is key, tempo is key. I thought 4 Butchers were too many, but they're not.
Kher Keep is very bad on the other hand. The 2nd Lavaclaw Reaches has always been a pain in the butt too. 1 is perfectly fine, 2 looks too greedy for not enough payback, in a 23 lands version at least.
I'd like to share my experience with the archetype and see if my thoughts are well-shaped.
I'm running a version with Mentor :
4 Lingering Souls
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Other Prowess Triggers:
2 Crackling Doom
2 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
3 Night's Whisper
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
- I've been slightly unimpressed with Monastery Swiftspear along with the burn package. She's fine though, don't get me wrong. Seeker of the Way is just stronger the same way Monastery Mentor is stronger than Young Pyromancer, tempo advantages put aside. The lifelink ability is very strong against Burn and other aggro decks. It's actually necessary since we always shock ourselves for tempo purposes.
- I think it's a bad idea to go full tokens, as this strategy doesn't work in high levels of competition. As Mentor is insanely strong if not dealt with, I can't see myself downgrading it to Young Pyromancer. Choices and concessions made here.
The choice of both Mentor and Seeker make the build very consistent, as we want to play spells during our turn, and we can get perfect value out of sorcery speed spells. Then it naturally makes sense to play Night's Whisper over Dark Confidant, Dreadbore over Terminate, and keep our removal spells for the combat on our turn.
- Burn is a real plan of victory. This is how we win a good portion of the games. Mentor + prowess Monks attacking with some burn back-up is often 10+ damage in a turn, which races many decks. This is how we beat Tron. At 22 lands (or less for the greediest players), we can't afford 4 Crackling Doom when we already play 8 other 3+ cmc drops. But the card is the only out to a lethal Bogles, Infect, Emrakul or Primeval Titan. You can also attack through a Wurmcoil Engine.
Grim Lavamancer helps to the burn plan, and is a strong yet fragile removal engine.
- Night's Whisper is a great card in the deck as it doesn't just trigger prowess when you want to, but it gives you that land drop you need. Bob may be arguably better in a Butcher shell with 23-24 lands and where toughnesses differ enough to stop board wipes to finish a game. We also want multiple Prowess activations, so playing Whisper into any spell is exactly what the deck wants.
- Utiliy Lands: Vault of the Archangel is not really a 2nd Sorin. I thought I didn't want it but deathtouch actually helps against fatties, which we may want to deal with by combat while we keep burn spells for the opponent or PWs. Slayers' Stronghold is very good at pushing through damage with flying tokensor on an empty board. It's cheap and makes your opponent's blocks pretty difficult. Also with Sorin and Seeker, we can guess lifelink triggers like the land. Fits to the overall aggro plan.
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Spellskite
3 Molten Rain
2 Hide // Seek
2 Rakdos Charm
- I tend to agree with some opinions on this thread, about Hide // Seek being an insane versatile card. Exile Tron, Valakut, Shackles, Batterskull, etc... and get information on your opponent's SB strategy. Way easier to play than Slaugter Games, disgustingly too expensive. Deflecting Palm is a good card but is way too conditionnal to make the cut in this specific slot.
- Tron and Scapeshift are such difficult MUs that Molten Rain seems okay to me. It fits to the burn plan, which is the best strategy for these MUs. I had tried Blood Moon, but it hurt my own manabase and the opponent can actually deal with it, including Bloom Titan with Seal of Primordium, and other 3-color decks with Abrupt Decay.
On a side note for Tron and Affinity, I found Stony Silence to be underwhelming. Overrated card ? Too reactive ?
- Engineered Explosives is great against any aggro, including the close-to-mirror MUs. I'm surprised the card isn't quoted more often, it answers a few MUs I read were problematic in this topic. It's game against Merfolks.
- I'm not sure about the PWs, the 2 slots are actually in test. I don't know what the deck needs, and my experience in the Abzan MU is pretty poor so far (nobody plays that deck or what ?!). What do you guys use Ajani for ?
Ok all this part is wrong man, just read yourself again.
> 8 VS 7 is actually something that matters. We're talking about devotion, and it's no different with mana overall. We all lose games because we can't cast a Hornet Queen, Ugin, or even 2 permanents in a single turn in time. In many games, going off with the combo won't be able because of that 1 extra devotion, and we'll lose. Tempo loss is not as punishing in standard as it is in modern, legacy and vintage, but it still is in some critical situations.
> By playing Ascendancy, you actually play a green card, while Chariot gives no devotion, so Ascendancy is more consistent than Chariot in terms of Devotion synergy. Plus Ascendancy is CA and tempo upside.
> Cutting red (just Ascendancy here, so it's also cutting... blue) doesn't make the deck better, period. It's nearly as innacurate as saying "don't play Domri if you play other non-creature spells in the deck". The manabase in this format is currently quite able to support 3 color-decks. Here, it's a monoG with a double minimal splash. Look at the manabase, there's no way you can't cast 1 of these 3 splashed cards in a usual game.
> Ascendancy is a better card - out of the combo - than Singing Bell Strike. Singing Bell Strike doesn't give devotion, doesn't give CA, doesn't give haste, it is a very bad removal spell, and hits the bin as soon as your opponent removes your dork, no matter whether you save it with Sabertooth.
I'm not defending my "beloved" Ascendancy, I don't like the card that much. But it's playable outta combo as Jeskai Ascendancy is.
Ok 2 colors, well, this is off in the first place. Temur Ascendancy is a 3-of and is the only splashed card in that version, so we can barely call that a 3 color deck. The U splash is heavier from the moment you want to play more than 3 blue cards. I hope it's clear in your mind.
A) Wrong. Your creatures don't have hexproof, so the combo is easy to disrupt anyway : they destroy one piece and it's over, no matter whether you have 2 or 3 pieces to assemble. And you still need a huge load of devotion permanents into play to go off, which means any removal on any permanent can stop the combo, and that also means our opponent usually has a bunch of turns to see it coming.
Besides, time when players didn't know the combo is over. Now everybody's prepared. No more stolen games thanks to an opponent's shameful misplay.
B) 3 Ascendancies is not what I call a waste of slots... Satyrs have always been played, and Sabertooth is just a great creature for G devo even without the combo. You want to play Singing Bell Strike and a few counterspells, I'll just say : go for it and bring us some honest feedback !
As Cersei would say : "Power is Power."
Do you believe guys the Eidolon package is worth it ? Other options are available for a better midrange plan. Like Xenagos, the Reveler: he's an extra ramp tool and his ultimate gets to find the combo pieces. He's always been great in GR devo.
About Chariot of Victory, you need 8 devotion instead of 7, it's not worth it. Plus the Chariot doesn't provide devotion, which means 1 more GG permanent on the battlefield compared to Temur Ascendancy.
About Hammer of Purphoros, it doesn't provide devotion either and is legendary, which gives you dead draws in the game. Ascendancy can stack and let you draw 2-3 cards per 4/x creature ETB.
Stop looking for a better combo piece, Ascendancy is the best one.
Elspeth deals with Heroic guys, Doomwake Giants and Stormbreath Dragons right away, stabilizes a monoX aggro board, and is a real threat VS control. I'm not sure she's worth a comparison with an almost unplayable Soul...
About the 4th Hydra, I feel it can take the place of the 4th Roc.
Concerning Soul of Theros, what uses do you imagine for him ? I had tried it in a GW shell these last months and was very disappointed. He doesn't do anything when it comes into play (12 mana is way too much), and doesn't have synergy with Sabertooth... he's just a Poluk-like body that can do something if your opponent has nothing. In the same situation, I'd rather have a PW on the board.
I like Frontier Siege a lot, as well as Temur Sabertooth. Makes me want to work out a GW version I'm already testing :
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Frontier Siege
3 Banishing Light
Creatures:
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Hornet Queen
3 Wingmate Roc
4 Temur Sabertooth
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Blossoming Sands
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
6 Forest
4 Plains
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 End Hostilities
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Banishing Light
3 Glare of Heresy
This home is pretty interesting, as we can multiply synergies :
- Often stuck at 6 mana after a Frontier Siege, we can cast Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Temur Sabertooth with an available activation. Overall smoother curve. Allows to cut the (potential) 3rd Ugin, the Spirit Dragon Main Deck.
- Frontier Siege + Wingmate Roc = bananas. It allows to cut a Hornet Queen - which is good for the curve - and adds tons of removal options, which G devotion may lack usually.
- Temur Sabertooth + Wingmate Roc = bananas. You can safely attack with Roc and gain life, then recast it !
- Temur Sabertooth + Hornet Queen + Frontier Siege = recursive one-sided wrath. It works with Rocs as well.
- Temur Sabertooth + Elspeth, Sun's Champion's wrath = one-sided wrath. What else ?
- Wingmate Roc + Hornet Queen = 7 life ?
As others have stated, the SB wants cards like Nylea's Disciple and Reclamation Sage to abuse Sabertooth's activations. The cat also likes End Hostilities as he can survive them and save part of the team, which happen to like being recast !
Last note, I don't believe we have much room for more mana guys, like Voyaging Satyr, as Frontier Siege already takes the slots of ramp tools. I found only 3 slots so far for Genesis Hydra, but some numbers can be tweaked.