So, Bant Timewalker made TOP 8 at our Local IQ (not piloted by me). I thought that this might be of interest to some of you that have been trying to incorporate W and G into your Time lists.
@ShadowGripper, I've been playing plenty, and as Chuba is saying, it might be the post-khan thing. I've had worse results lately, but I've also been playing a lot of jank lists to test out. I used to run a 'million mine' deck like yours, and it is actually the one I've had best results with in this post khan. How is the Blood Moons working out for you?
Just to chime in here, I feel that I am already at least 60/40 against most decks that you would traditionally bring moon in against (thinking about SB moon in Storm and Twin). Most of my playtesting for the Junk match-up is against Glittering Wish Junk.
Having piloted my share of UG infect, I feel that this is the best place for our Blood Moons. That deck is nearly unplayable with a Moon on the field. If they don't fetch conservatively, the match is practically over.
@Shadowgripper
How is Blood Moon vs Zoo (little and big if you think it is different)?
I gotta admit, I'm not sold on the Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Not in any form - And in your deck where you play 3 Mutavault, he just seems like a winmore.
Also, I understand that you like Monastery Siege - But when running Thassa, isnt a split of 2(Okay, mabye just 1) Jace and 4 Dictate just more crushing? A Jace/Kruphix + Siege + Thassa just won't activate her, I'm not sold on that one either.
Also, I don't know if you ever did this, but Exhaustion versus Twin can be cast even if he isnt tapped out, forcing him not to play a thing in your turn. I stalled a couple of Twin games on this.
In general people, I think we need to be discussing a bit: Are we moving in the right direction? I think we used to have decent results, even versus Abzan and stuff, but now we just brew a lot: And it feels like we are taking a few step backwards. Am I the only one with this feeling?
- Now, I can't speak for Time Attack, but I'm talking about the combo. Besides from Amstad who had amazing results, knowing his meta quite well.
Could it be, that we might need to look at the controlling approach again with Boomerang and other powerfull interaction cards?
The thing that I don't like about Kozilek is that he draws 4 cards. If this were a 'may' trigger, I would be far happier. If I owned a Ulamog, I would probably be playing that. In Game 1 vs Skred, my Mutavaults were Mooned, but I was able to double Time Warp + Kozilek before Thassa was in play. I understand that this may not be correct, but I prefer the diversity of threats and multiple lines to victory.
I have won most of my games off of Thassa beat-down.
Honestly, there are two cards that I have been a huge proponent of where I feel that I may have been completely wrong about.
1.Serum Visions I love how this helps set up the deck but with the number of slots dedicated to Time Walk effects, I think that the deck may need a little more defense. 2.Monastery Siege is the first card that I side out in every game. I woke up this morning thinking of what i should be playing in it's stead. The benefits of this used defensively are too slow and narrow, in my build. The Dragons effect is not needed if you can make it past turn 5-6 (you are either dead to a single Lightning Bolt or have the opponent effectively locked out of the game)
LGS, Round 4, Game 3: I took that exact line to stall him from comboing. He neither countered my exhaustion nor played a spell, instead just waiting, drawing 3-4 cards per turn until he had 7-8 lands to play around exhaustion.
Abzan is a cake-walk. 30-40% of the winners bracket was on Abzan at the PPTQ. I never played against it.
Overall, I think that my lines of play need some work and that the deck needs a little cleaning.
From what I've seen with this deck, it's quite hard to pilot for the average magic player. You really gotta know what your game plan is, how to sequence the steps and phases correctly, when you should/not be casting spells, and which spells to cast in what order. The deck provides you with a lot of decisions, most of them look good, but there's always one correct "best" choice with leads to optimizing your probabilities or completing shutting out your opponent from interacting. Knowledge of your opponent's deck and game plan help you better evaluate the decisions at hand, so study up!
I can get behind this completely. The reason that I took the deck to a PPTQ as only the 3rd event that I piloted it in, it to see how this is positioned in a large field. I will be attending GP Charlotte in June (I live ~4 miles from the convention center) and want to have a better idea of what the average competitive field might look like.
I recognized several times where my sequencing could have been much better in my games against Zoo and Delver. I think that my biggest issue with burn is where I should/shouldn't mulligan.
@Everyone
How do you generally deal with Eidolon of the Great Revel in games 1, 2, and 3? I cannot win with that in play.
This deck was hyper fast Mutagenic Growth & Ghor-clan Rampager Game 1 was a total hoser. I lost helplessly by turn 4. Game 2 I brought in my spellskites, mana leaks, and chalices. I pulled out the Serum Visions, Remands, Monastery Siege. The game finished with double Eidolon and my opponent putting himself to 2.
Bye
Gr Tron
Game 1 I was on the play. My opponent had tested this match-up with me several times and new that is was narrow. He mulliganed to 4 and conceded. Game 2 This match is heavily in our favor. If we can keep them off of spellskite, our Gigadrowse does some serious work. I bring trickbind in for this match-up and take out my Seiges. I feel like Hurkyl's Recall is also a decent card to bring in, but i don't think that it is necessary.
UR Twin
Game 1 Combo went off without a hitch. Game 2 (I brought in Chalice for his serum visions, spell snare, and spell pierce. I did not bring in Trickbind.) I was able to disrupt him with remand and exhaustion but was unable to properly start taking extra turns. Unfortunately, I had mines in play and quickly fueled my opponenet's hand. He deceiver + twin. Game 3 (I did not change my 60.) I stalled much longer but was not able to fight through his counter-magic.
60 Players in attendance. 6 Rounds. Cut to TOP 8.
I made several changes tweaks to my deck in anticipation of a bigger field and after a few lessons from my local store event.
Game 1 I mulliganed to 6 and kept a what I believed to be a reasonable hand for an unknown match. I was able to stall him but never really got anything going. He hit with a Wurmcoil engine over several turns and I never recovered. He did not see much from my deck. I took turns but did not reveal any wincons. Game 2I brought in 2x trickbind for his Ulamog, Ugin, Sundering Titan and Emrakul. I knew that I was in the clear a Combust to hand-size. I beat down with Thassa over 4 turns to win the game. Game 3 Repeat Game 2, winning in turns.
Skred
I was being friendly during deck registration as he had traveled from my local area with another group. He added a Boil to his SB after getting an idea of what I was playing. Game 1Textbook. I put a mine into play (on the play) on t2, kept his lands tapped and hid my pleasure as he shrugged and cast a blood moon to disable my Mutavaults. I took extra turns and beat down with Thassa. Game 2Textbook. He played two Boros Reckoner and hit a couple of times, putting me to 9 before i chained warps into a double warp Kozilek.
RW Burn
I need more testing with against this match-up. Game 1 He was on the play. I was able to drowse and exhaustion but only delayed the inevitable. Game 2 I brought in Mana Leaks, Spellskites, and Chalice. I kept a hand with a Spellskite and he played 2 Swiftspear, 1 Goblin Guide and damage to 'player' burn spells. I blocked 5-6 damage before redirecting a Lightning Bolt to Spellskite after blocks but before damage. The Spellskite absorbed 8 points of damage but that was not enough to keep me going. An Eidolon was the nail in the coffin.
UR Delver
Game 1 He had a slow hand but mine was equipped to exploit it. I believe that it was a mulligan to 6. I stuck an early mine to help start the engine. But that only fueled his counterspells and he was able to use spell pierce to keep me off of key extra turns. Game 2I brought in 3x Chalice. I kept a one land hand with 2x chalice, mine effect, and extra turns. I top decked a land and set chalice to one with a delver on the field. He flippe dhte delver early and was able to build a boardstate with Young Pyromancer, though my chalice. I didn't draw sufficient land to continue.
Knight Zoo
Game 1 Mulligan to 5 (questionable keep). He is on the 2 cmc and larger zoo plan. He used the Ghor-clan Rampager bloodrush on a Tarmogoyf to quickly win game 1 through disruption. Game 2 Mulligan to 6 (no mines). The hand had tempo through Exhaustion and Giga drowse, I drew into heavy time walks but began to run light on lands. I did not resolve a mine effect (although it wouldn't have lasted with his two Quasali Pridemage. I improperly squenced my walk effects by casting an exhaustion at 5 mana with Time Warp and Walk the Aeons x2 in hand. This would have allowed me to dig for answers and lands finishing with 'hey, now that I am done, you don't get to untap'. I was in a pretty hopeless spot but that may have cost me the game.
Well, the tournament didn't go exactly as I expected. I had incorrectly assumed that it was a LGS planned event. Instead it as an on-demand tournament.
Decks:
Loam Pox (BGr Zombie Infestation)
UR Twin
Little Kid Abzan (without Wilt-leaf)
Gr Tron
Sly (Budget Jank Red Aggro)
Taking Turns (see My List above)
Round 1: Sly (1-2)
Games 1 and 3 I did not start chaining time warps. Game 2 was a concede after Warping with sufficient Mine effects in play.
I brought in chalice and spellskite in for game 2 and left them in for game 3. I set chalice to 1 in both games. He was able to play around it with a Satyr Hoplite and Kiln Fiend. Triggering the kiln fiend and heroic through the chalice.
Round 2: Gr Tron (2-0)
Game 1 was perfect. I drowsed his lands through a tron and multiple towers. I kept him at bay with Exhaustion and a key Remand on his Karn.
Game 2 was a little rough. I had a great 6-card hand with permission; remand, gigadrowse, howling mine, island, mutavault and exhaustion. He hit my turn 2 mine with a Nature's Claim. This stopped me in my tracks. I was able to win through a series of well timed exhaustions, and gigadrowse until I hit a true miracle at 4 islands and a mutavault in play. My opponent had an Emrakul in hand and 15 mana in play. I played Thasa, God of the Sea an proceeded to scry my way into another miracle and a Dictate of Kruphix. Through this I was able to cast the Time Warp from my opening hand and go off.
Round 3: Loam Pox (1-2) I feel that this deck is a nightmare for Taking Turns
Game 1, My opponent was able to generate several zombies through his Zombie Infestation. I ignored this, taping his lands down and keeping them tapped until I was able to combo off.
Game 2 (SB in Trickbind for Dredge Trigger and Zombie Infestation), I was able to fight through Raven's Crime and attempt to go off. I fizzled and he was able to beat me down with Bloodghast.
Game 3 (60 unchanged from Game 2), I muliganed to 5 and had my hand stripped apart by Raven's Crime. 2 Islands in play, no cards in hand, facing a Bloodghast, and I conceded on turn 4.
I should have brought in Chalice after seeing the raven's crime in game 2
Ultimately, I am pleased with the results. I have had zero playtest experience with the list and I made several poor SB choices.
Howling Mine already gives your opponent some advantage with the extra draw. You give your opponents too much of an advantage with the rites and heartbeat.
Heartbeat and Rites negate the effect of Exhaustion or an upkeep Gigadrowse on your opponent's land.
I jammed a few test games last night vs Infect, Boros Burn, and Jund. Burn and Jund were manageable match-ups but infect hosed the combo. This forced me to rethink my SB.
I switched the 2x Redirect and 1x Negate for 3x Spellskite.
Tournament starts in 2 & 1/2 hours. I have expectations on what the field will look like:
Players: 12-16
Expected Match-ups (multiple known pilots in attendance): Burn, Twin, Merfolk
Possible Appearances: Tron, Scapeshift, BGx
There are known affinity players at my local store, but I know that the main pilot is not attending. I made several of my SB choices with the above assumptions.
I have been gold fishing a Taking Turns Combo with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. This requires a double time warp turn into a Kozilek. The Polymorph list plays very similarly. Polymorph consolidates the second Time Warp effect and the casting of your finisher.
I have increased the variety of win-conditions to add resiliency to the deck. Through gold-fishing, I have found that my biggest Game 1 issue was accidentally decking myself or running out of gas. The problem is that in order to set up a turn to play two Time Walk effects into a Kozilek you need several mine effects in play. I have often found that I am casting Kozilek into a 10-15 card deck. The risk of decking myself, I have considered discarding my Kozilek to try again. I dislike that play so, I added second shuffle effect in Elixir of Immortality.
Good Luck
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84253
Having piloted my share of UG infect, I feel that this is the best place for our Blood Moons. That deck is nearly unplayable with a Moon on the field. If they don't fetch conservatively, the match is practically over.
@Shadowgripper
How is Blood Moon vs Zoo (little and big if you think it is different)?
I have won most of my games off of Thassa beat-down.
Honestly, there are two cards that I have been a huge proponent of where I feel that I may have been completely wrong about.
1. Serum Visions I love how this helps set up the deck but with the number of slots dedicated to Time Walk effects, I think that the deck may need a little more defense.
2. Monastery Siege is the first card that I side out in every game. I woke up this morning thinking of what i should be playing in it's stead. The benefits of this used defensively are too slow and narrow, in my build. The Dragons effect is not needed if you can make it past turn 5-6 (you are either dead to a single Lightning Bolt or have the opponent effectively locked out of the game)
LGS, Round 4, Game 3: I took that exact line to stall him from comboing. He neither countered my exhaustion nor played a spell, instead just waiting, drawing 3-4 cards per turn until he had 7-8 lands to play around exhaustion.
Abzan is a cake-walk. 30-40% of the winners bracket was on Abzan at the PPTQ. I never played against it.
Overall, I think that my lines of play need some work and that the deck needs a little cleaning.
Main
-3 Serum Visions
-2 Monastery Siege
+2 or 3 Mana Leak maybe Spell Snare
+3 or 2 Boomerang
Sideboard
-3 Mana Leak
+3 Swan Song
I can get behind this completely. The reason that I took the deck to a PPTQ as only the 3rd event that I piloted it in, it to see how this is positioned in a large field. I will be attending GP Charlotte in June (I live ~4 miles from the convention center) and want to have a better idea of what the average competitive field might look like.
I recognized several times where my sequencing could have been much better in my games against Zoo and Delver. I think that my biggest issue with burn is where I should/shouldn't mulligan.
@Everyone
How do you generally deal with Eidolon of the Great Revel in games 1, 2, and 3? I cannot win with that in play.
1 UR Twin
2 Jeskai Twin
1 Phyrexian Zoo
1 Tron
1 Taking Turns
1 Infect
1 Esper Control
1 Grixis Delver
1 RUG Moon Shackles Twin
3 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Monastery Siege
Win Cons
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Jace Beleren
Instants
3 Remand
4 Gigadrowse
3 Serum Visions
3 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
4 Walk the Aeons
3 Temporal Mastery
Land
21 Snow-Covered Islands
3 Mutavault
3 Spellskite
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mana Leak
2 Trickbind
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Phyrexian Zoo
Game 1 was a total hoser. I lost helplessly by turn 4.
Game 2 I brought in my spellskites, mana leaks, and chalices. I pulled out the Serum Visions, Remands, Monastery Siege. The game finished with double Eidolon and my opponent putting himself to 2.
Gr Tron
Game 2 This match is heavily in our favor. If we can keep them off of spellskite, our Gigadrowse does some serious work. I bring trickbind in for this match-up and take out my Seiges. I feel like Hurkyl's Recall is also a decent card to bring in, but i don't think that it is necessary.
Game 2 (I brought in Chalice for his serum visions, spell snare, and spell pierce. I did not bring in Trickbind.) I was able to disrupt him with remand and exhaustion but was unable to properly start taking extra turns. Unfortunately, I had mines in play and quickly fueled my opponenet's hand. He deceiver + twin.
Game 3 (I did not change my 60.) I stalled much longer but was not able to fight through his counter-magic.
I made several changes tweaks to my deck in anticipation of a bigger field and after a few lessons from my local store event.
3 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Monastery Siege
Win Cons
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Jace Beleren
Instants
3 Remand
4 Gigadrowse
3 Serum Visions
4 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
4 Walk the Aeons
2 Temporal Mastery
Land
21 Snow-Covered Islands
3 Mutavault
3 Spellskite
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mana Leak
2 Trickbind
1 Laboratory Maniac
Gr Tron
Game 1 I mulliganed to 6 and kept a what I believed to be a reasonable hand for an unknown match. I was able to stall him but never really got anything going. He hit with a Wurmcoil engine over several turns and I never recovered. He did not see much from my deck. I took turns but did not reveal any wincons.
Game 2 I brought in 2x trickbind for his Ulamog, Ugin, Sundering Titan and Emrakul. I knew that I was in the clear a Combust to hand-size. I beat down with Thassa over 4 turns to win the game.
Game 3 Repeat Game 2, winning in turns.
Game 1Textbook. I put a mine into play (on the play) on t2, kept his lands tapped and hid my pleasure as he shrugged and cast a blood moon to disable my Mutavaults. I took extra turns and beat down with Thassa.
Game 2Textbook. He played two Boros Reckoner and hit a couple of times, putting me to 9 before i chained warps into a double warp Kozilek.
Game 1 He was on the play. I was able to drowse and exhaustion but only delayed the inevitable.
Game 2 I brought in Mana Leaks, Spellskites, and Chalice. I kept a hand with a Spellskite and he played 2 Swiftspear, 1 Goblin Guide and damage to 'player' burn spells. I blocked 5-6 damage before redirecting a Lightning Bolt to Spellskite after blocks but before damage. The Spellskite absorbed 8 points of damage but that was not enough to keep me going. An Eidolon was the nail in the coffin.
Game 2 I brought in 3x Chalice. I kept a one land hand with 2x chalice, mine effect, and extra turns. I top decked a land and set chalice to one with a delver on the field. He flippe dhte delver early and was able to build a boardstate with Young Pyromancer, though my chalice. I didn't draw sufficient land to continue.
Game 1 Mulligan to 5 (questionable keep). He is on the 2 cmc and larger zoo plan. He used the Ghor-clan Rampager bloodrush on a Tarmogoyf to quickly win game 1 through disruption.
Game 2 Mulligan to 6 (no mines). The hand had tempo through Exhaustion and Giga drowse, I drew into heavy time walks but began to run light on lands. I did not resolve a mine effect (although it wouldn't have lasted with his two Quasali Pridemage. I improperly squenced my walk effects by casting an exhaustion at 5 mana with Time Warp and Walk the Aeons x2 in hand. This would have allowed me to dig for answers and lands finishing with 'hey, now that I am done, you don't get to untap'. I was in a pretty hopeless spot but that may have cost me the game.
4 Time Warp
4 Walk the Aeons
3 Temporal Mastery
Tempo
4 Gigadrowse
3 Exhaustion
3 Remand
Mines
3 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Monastery Siege (Burn Heavy Meta)
3 Serum Visions
Win-Con
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Mutavault
Blue Mana
21 Snow-Covered Island
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Negate
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Spellskite
2 Trickbind
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Laboratory Maniac
Decks:
Loam Pox (BGr Zombie Infestation)
UR Twin
Little Kid Abzan (without Wilt-leaf)
Gr Tron
Sly (Budget Jank Red Aggro)
Taking Turns (see My List above)
Round 1: Sly (1-2)
Games 1 and 3 I did not start chaining time warps. Game 2 was a concede after Warping with sufficient Mine effects in play.
I brought in chalice and spellskite in for game 2 and left them in for game 3. I set chalice to 1 in both games. He was able to play around it with a Satyr Hoplite and Kiln Fiend. Triggering the kiln fiend and heroic through the chalice.
Game 1 was perfect. I drowsed his lands through a tron and multiple towers. I kept him at bay with Exhaustion and a key Remand on his Karn.
Game 2 was a little rough. I had a great 6-card hand with permission; remand, gigadrowse, howling mine, island, mutavault and exhaustion. He hit my turn 2 mine with a Nature's Claim. This stopped me in my tracks. I was able to win through a series of well timed exhaustions, and gigadrowse until I hit a true miracle at 4 islands and a mutavault in play. My opponent had an Emrakul in hand and 15 mana in play. I played Thasa, God of the Sea an proceeded to scry my way into another miracle and a Dictate of Kruphix. Through this I was able to cast the Time Warp from my opening hand and go off.
I feel that this deck is a nightmare for Taking Turns
Game 1, My opponent was able to generate several zombies through his Zombie Infestation. I ignored this, taping his lands down and keeping them tapped until I was able to combo off.
Game 2 (SB in Trickbind for Dredge Trigger and Zombie Infestation), I was able to fight through Raven's Crime and attempt to go off. I fizzled and he was able to beat me down with Bloodghast.
Game 3 (60 unchanged from Game 2), I muliganed to 5 and had my hand stripped apart by Raven's Crime. 2 Islands in play, no cards in hand, facing a Bloodghast, and I conceded on turn 4.
I should have brought in Chalice after seeing the raven's crime in game 2
Ultimately, I am pleased with the results. I have had zero playtest experience with the list and I made several poor SB choices.
Heartbeat and Rites negate the effect of Exhaustion or an upkeep Gigadrowse on your opponent's land.
I switched the 2x Redirect and 1x Negate for 3x Spellskite.
Tournament starts in 2 & 1/2 hours. I have expectations on what the field will look like:
Players: 12-16
Expected Match-ups (multiple known pilots in attendance): Burn, Twin, Merfolk
Possible Appearances: Tron, Scapeshift, BGx
There are known affinity players at my local store, but I know that the main pilot is not attending. I made several of my SB choices with the above assumptions.
4 Time Warp
4 Walk the Aeons
3 Temporal Mastery
Tempo
4 Gigadrowse
3 Exhaustion
3 Remand
Mines
3 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Monastery Siege (Burn Heavy Meta)
3 Serum Visions
Win-Con
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Mutavault
Blue Mana
21 Snow-Covered Island
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Negate
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Spellskite
2 Trickbind
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Laboratory Maniac
I intend to provide a tournament report.
Can you provide the deck list?
I have been gold fishing a Taking Turns Combo with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. This requires a double time warp turn into a Kozilek. The Polymorph list plays very similarly. Polymorph consolidates the second Time Warp effect and the casting of your finisher.
My current list is as follows:
4 Time Warp
4 Walk the Aeons
3 Temporal Mastery
Tempo
4 Gigadrowse
3 Exhaustion
2 Remand
Mines
3 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Monastery Siege (Burn Heavy Meta)
3 Serum Visions
1 Cryptic Command
Win-Con
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Mutavault
Blue Mana
21 Snow-Covered Island
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Negate
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Redirect (should this be Spellskite?)
2 Trickbind
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Laboratory Maniac
I have increased the variety of win-conditions to add resiliency to the deck. Through gold-fishing, I have found that my biggest Game 1 issue was accidentally decking myself or running out of gas. The problem is that in order to set up a turn to play two Time Walk effects into a Kozilek you need several mine effects in play. I have often found that I am casting Kozilek into a 10-15 card deck. The risk of decking myself, I have considered discarding my Kozilek to try again. I dislike that play so, I added second shuffle effect in Elixir of Immortality.
I have been watching the ModernNoob play old variants of Farf's list. I like what he did with the combo in this Jund match-up.