My criteria for a top tier is a general who can top 8 in a meta of reasonable size, skill and general composition. Nothing to do with match ups.
Banning Zur is going to make a lot of people who play it upset as they've invested. You guys calling for banning it don't understand that. We must exhaust all other options and I think banning helm is option 1. I think banning nevermore is not the right play but that would be option 2. If banning both of these doesn't take awayZurs "dominance" after six months of testing per ban, then I'll concede he should likely be banned.
I've played with and against zur enough to know that if you're general isn't out by the time I can fetch nevermore you're deck is either not top tier or you're general has been removed. Run enchantment hate. There are tons of versatile enchant hate cards. I personally don't even run nevermore because a) derevi and b) good generals are already out and I have better things to fetch. Helm Is the card to ban.
Derevi is weak to several decks (Marath, Wanderer on a good draw, Oloro, and a few others), and we need to give her time to allow the format to "re get used to" flying men style decks.
That being said, Zur definitely should not be banned. It gives Derevi a run for her money first off, and secondly, the free wins off of Helm of Obedience (which no other deck really uses) are what make Zur seem so broken. Playing strict Zur control with no combo is a difficult task, and is most assuredly beatable in most colors. My meta has demonstrated this significantly.
Sometimes you guys forget how bad of an idea it is to ban a general.
Step 1: attempt to ban nothing and give the format(s) time to adjust. PLENTY of time. (remember, tournament results you see are not representative of the full reality of the situation. Things such as time of year, location, tweaking and innovations of builds, new discoveries, etc impact several months worth of tournament standings. For example, in our last tournament of 50+ players, only 1 Zur and 1 Derevi were in the top 8, and they were in 5-8 spots. We have some extremely good, Pro Tour level players in our meta. Quite a few, actually.).
Step 2: Ban cards that are not the general. There is a reason that the general ban list is short. Zur and Derevi do not have the deck power that Edric or Erayo have. Zur's power is himself, and usually he needs to swing at least twice to be devastating. If you can't deal with that, your deck is bad or you're running the wrong cards. Derevi does give her deck power, but nowhere near Edric level power.
Step 3: Suggest new cards to the format. No one is running the removal/denial they need against either general, nor does hardly anyone run revoker/meddling mage style effects. There are so many answers to these 2 generals it's dumb. For goodness sake Aven mindcensor alone destroys Zur.
Step 4: If step 1-3 plus ALOT of time don't work, TEMPORARILY ban A SINGLE general at a time. Remember, the idea of a healthy game is to have as short a banlist as possible. Nothing short of degeneracy should be on that list.
Banning Zur is going to make a lot of people who play it upset as they've invested. You guys calling for banning it don't understand that. We must exhaust all other options and I think banning helm is option 1. I think banning nevermore is not the right play but that would be option 2. If banning both of these doesn't take awayZurs "dominance" after six months of testing per ban, then I'll concede he should likely be banned.
That being said, Zur definitely should not be banned. It gives Derevi a run for her money first off, and secondly, the free wins off of Helm of Obedience (which no other deck really uses) are what make Zur seem so broken. Playing strict Zur control with no combo is a difficult task, and is most assuredly beatable in most colors. My meta has demonstrated this significantly.
Sometimes you guys forget how bad of an idea it is to ban a general.
Step 1: attempt to ban nothing and give the format(s) time to adjust. PLENTY of time. (remember, tournament results you see are not representative of the full reality of the situation. Things such as time of year, location, tweaking and innovations of builds, new discoveries, etc impact several months worth of tournament standings. For example, in our last tournament of 50+ players, only 1 Zur and 1 Derevi were in the top 8, and they were in 5-8 spots. We have some extremely good, Pro Tour level players in our meta. Quite a few, actually.).
Step 2: Ban cards that are not the general. There is a reason that the general ban list is short. Zur and Derevi do not have the deck power that Edric or Erayo have. Zur's power is himself, and usually he needs to swing at least twice to be devastating. If you can't deal with that, your deck is bad or you're running the wrong cards. Derevi does give her deck power, but nowhere near Edric level power.
Step 3: Suggest new cards to the format. No one is running the removal/denial they need against either general, nor does hardly anyone run revoker/meddling mage style effects. There are so many answers to these 2 generals it's dumb. For goodness sake Aven mindcensor alone destroys Zur.
Step 4: If step 1-3 plus ALOT of time don't work, TEMPORARILY ban A SINGLE general at a time. Remember, the idea of a healthy game is to have as short a banlist as possible. Nothing short of degeneracy should be on that list.
Also, banning Nevermore is dumb.