Tables, chairs, demo games, prizes....they all cost money. If you want that to continue than you must pay for it.
Excuse me, are you a bot or something? You gave me a pre-constructed answer that is a non-sequitur and totally unrelated of what I just said to you. Of course I don't give a single f*k of table, chairs or prizes or a place to play. Me and my friends already have places to play, either online (making for example telegram or facebook magic groups and play on cockatrice) or in real life meeting in each other houses. Most of Commanders and kitchen table players as I said don't give a literal f*k to LGS and I already told you that many don't even know what an LGS is and still play happily as ever. We, casual players care only about the social aspect of Magic with small circle of friends and unlike the prizes and tournaments sanctioned by WotC in competitive formats, that's something where LGS are easily out of the equation.
Now repeat with me : "WotC could even go bankrupt today and me and my friends would still play Commander for the rest of our lifes." and write it in the whiteboard 100 times like Bart of the Simpsons, until you finally grasp this very little and simple concept in your brain, ok?
See that's where you're wrong. The EDH Community and Playgroups NEED the LGS in order to survive
Eh? Not really. Never been the case with me or my playgroup. Remember that -how Mark Rosewater always stess out- the most high number of magic players in the world are the casual kitchen table one, which means people that doesn't even know what's an LGS. And since Commander is also the most played format in Magic worldwide currently means also that many casual kitchen table playgroups all around the world, exactly like me and my friends never needed in 10+ years of Commander play, the existence of a LGS, if not maybe only to buy a precon EDH deck. Anyway nowadays we proxy everything, so we don't even need it for that reason. Oh and of course, free online programs like Cockatrice are another big deal of why not only we don't need the LGS but not even a physical space at all in order to play together if necessary. You must realize that Commander is a totally different beast than tournaments formats like standard or modern and doesn't have the same restrictions or limitations these formats have but follow his own rules. As I said WotC could go bankrupt today and I and my friends would still play Commander for the rest of our lifes.
I really don’t get why ONE doesn’t use +1/+1 counters just like the rest of magic, where limited formats are a very short span compared to the entirety of magic. Design feels just so inelegant.
They could easily use +/+ counters easily. Proliferate interacts already with it and for like the few cards that care about oil counters, they can just batch them (oil and +/+ counters) or just care about any counter. Not like they will be broken outside limited. I dunno why mixing 2 counters is too complex where we already have first strike counters.
1) Because exist cards that cares about oil counters removed or added or present on permanents (Churning Reservoir, Magmatic Sprinter, The Filigree Sylex, Cinderlash Ravager etc ), creating new and unique design space to explore.
2) Oil counters are more versatile than +1/+1 counters because they can also act as charge counters for non-creature permanents, creating once again new and unique design space to explore that +1 counters wouldnt fulfill.
3) Oil counters are great flavor-wise and helps to add a distinct mechanical identity to Phyrexians like toxic, phyrexian mana, proliferate or poison matter cards.
4) It's inelegant to track in one card multiple types of counters, so the less, the better, especially for limited environment. The fact that sometimes they are willing to add more counter-matter complexity like in Ikoria or New Capenna, doesn't mean must be the norm for every single set, and especially in this case where are mechanical and synergistic reasons to make massive use of oil counters.
Just because you don't understand why they make certain design choices, doesn't mean there aren't any valid reasons behind it.
The incessant need to push WotC for new Commanders that do everything under the Sun has led to WotC cramming Commander material into sets and products where it doesn't belong. So many multi color Legends anymore that it renders the tag "Legendary" meaningless.
I honestly don't see how that is such a big deal. First of all, I don't see how a higher percentage of legends is bad : legendary is a drawback mechanic and greatly helps to keep in check power creep problems as a balancing tool, from a mechanical viewpoint, so the more, the better. Second, flavorwise, more legends mean also more chance to flesh out the lore of the game through the cards and that's a positive thing, since pre-commander times so many and many interesting characters were (and are still) without any cards to represent them (right Crucius? Pontifex? Taysir? etc), and EDH is a great opportunity to make them part of the game and not only the lore.
Third, the upsides of the commander format rising for gameplay benefits are IMHO much highers than the "downsides" you are showing. For example, the reason of why WotC decided to errata cards that has functional Surveil and Landfall but was not spelled out in the card, was for the reason to make this cards play better in eternal formats in sinergy with other cards that mention said mechanic (like Surveil), and EDH is a big part of it. It's the same reason we now see many mechanic as 1-of even in Premiere Sets (like ONE having Flashback and Affinity), now Designers have the freedom to push a set design complexity, because exactly of EDH players that are used to complexity in the format where all sets in magic history are legal. (and as usual, I'm not making up this, but is for explicit admission of WotC, here's Gavin Verhey saying exactly these things) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUTysFUNdjc
You don't like this new direction of Magic? Yeah cool that's fine. But for god's sake, don't have such dramatical take that all this for Magic future is objectively and absolute terrible and EDH players and formats should be blamed of things you simply don't like that you label as severe game health problems, because the only one that sounds delusional here is actually you.
Commander/EDH players are not blameless. I don't think you are saying that, but they are indeed part of the problem as well.
What problem and what blame exactly?
Lets say me and my friends are EDH players. We play almost exclusively EDH and buy EDH products. Maybe we even spend money more than the average modern or standard player because we like to make many decks and we're not interested on other formats. What is our fault in that? That we play and support only one format and WotC please our requests? Really this makes me and my friends the problem? What is the alternative? "Stop enjoying so much what you enjoy"? For real?
I am just saying that EDH players are the ones that can always give a middle finger to any WotC decisions at any time, because of the nature itself of the format, WotC has very little grasp on the infinite ramifications of edh community and playgroups, since we don't need an LGS, tournaments, expensive staples or even real cards for that matter, in order to have fun with Magic. Our system works and that's also why is so successful.
Magic is not the same because of EDH? As always, Magic changes constantly and evolves with the needs of the players. Many times Magic risked to die because of the drastical changes it had in all those years (creation of standard format, 6th edition rules changes, the creation of the planeswalker cards etc) and even with all the radical changes is still Magic. You can choose to adapt to what Magic is now and find your niche or just leave the game if doesnt please you anymore, but blaming EDH players for your personal frustrations with the state of the game doesn't seem a constructive solution to me.
I wish the MTG community would unite and put up a united front but this isn't a RPG. RPG's are based on players minds and imaginations, rules can be arbitrary and flexible. MTG is bound by strict rules printed on pieces of cardboard. No deviation from those rules are allowed. It is a chessboard with changing pieces that if you pay more you may indeed win more. On top of that those changing pieces are treated like stocks and traded like them as well. Until players quit paying stupid amounts of money for little pieces of cardboard (to "win" at all costs) nothing is going to change.
I don't like it, but that is the reality of the situation.
I will be looking into Sorcery when they finally get around to printing their Unlimited/Beta edition this year at some point. I hope others will do the same.
Probably the competitive and tournament part of Magic is like that, but EDH is actually much more similar in D&D freedom (which is not exactly nothing considering that Commander is the current format most played worldwide across Magic fans, by admission on WotC herself, making nowadays almost all MTG products specifically aimed at commander players). In EDH every playgroup can change any rules or banlist of magic they want with the Rule 0 philosphy and proxies are highly encouraged, destroying completely all the "collectible / high price entry" issue and in kitchen table envinroment nobody check or cares if you play with real cards or changes the rules at all. Having a good social experience is more important than having a good collection or win-rate in your LGS. Rule 0 extend to the point that Some people even make their own custom cards and decks, which is similar to the process of the D&D party making their own adventure and lore instead of following the official manual ones. Which is I guess why EDH players aren't even angry directly at WotC most of the times, they will basically do the ***** they want to do anyway for the rest of their lives with the game, even if WotC would just bankrupt today.
Nah, it’s way less competitive. Not because of the life vs mana thing, but because it cannot untap creatures. So isn’t a two card, infinite, draw your-whole-deck combo with a mana dork that taps for 5 or more mana.
They are different beasts, what can't do one scepter is reached by another one and viceversa (like proliferate or sac-engine). Also, what mana dorks on earth taps for 5 or more mana? Every mana dork that taps for more than 2 or 3 mana usually requires other cards on battlefields (like Priest of Titania or Circle of Dream Druids), so it's not even a true 2 card combo, while this Staff is more efficent even with zero cards in hand and board state alone at almost any time of the game.
Commanderwise, this is a disappointing design beyond any belief. No red in mana cost (I was hoping for a WUBRG ability, perhaps in phyrexian mana related to do phyrexian things), same identical keyword soup of last Atraxa (fine but still lazy), uninspired card draw mechanic (we already saw this kind of ETB effects on the last Niv-Mizzet). At this point I will just use her original card for a truly phyrexian strategy, this is so generic, boring and give very little ideas on original deckbuilding.
No, the +1 see a bunch of random cards to put in hand, in next turn you cast one or 2 of them (IF opponent don't counter) and in the turn after that MAYBE you gonna have a chance to attack with said cards (if opponent don't remove them). Which is durdling around in my book, since Nissa already kicked the ass twice with the eldrazi vanillas already. talking about putting pressure, eh?
about EDH.... everything works in EDH given the right playgroup.
I'm talking about High Power EDH, around Level 8, not your typical kitchen table casual with precons.
This just in: New planeswalker that produces a 4+/4+ token every turn starting turn 5 is unplayable because *checks notes* it dies to removal.
Not sure if standard really has become this degenerate or people are just as bad at evaluating cards as they always have been lmao.
last time I heard, there was no instant boardwipe in standard right now....
Why it need to be instant? I just said that if you make a Titan with 1 or 1000 tokens, unless you got a haste enabler, they will all be wipe out from any sorcery speed board removal. And if you think there are no instant boardwipe in standard, think of how many board wipes in standard that deal planeswalkers and creatures at same time.
Specially because that token that Nissa makes only becomes stronger each turn when she's not under pressure.... that token might just become weaker for your second plus if she's damaged somehow.
Oh wow, so that means an opponent just lost a creature and/or a card just to deal and pass through her first token, while you Nissa is still very likely alive meanwhile. Now you see why I say that opponents can't deal with nissa and her armies without going on card disadvantage, and card disadvantage make game loss on long term?
Walkers like, for example Vivien on the Hunt are simply better to play when you're behind...
I mean, she can bring you back into the game from an empty hand just after a Farewell.... which is something that the new Nissa can't dream of doing.
I literally didnt understood what you just wrote here. How come is Vivien better than Nissa after a farewell? If you want immediate board presence that kick ass the opponent instead of durdling around Nissa is just better.
I just think that this planeswalker isn't making any waves on Standard.
I wasn't talking about only Standard but impact presence in EDH as well. And there the life points loss it's irrelevant.
it will be pretty much 5 mana and 4 life for a 4/4 and a walker with 4 loyalty.
it's really inneficient at that cost.
INEFFICENT? Do you have any idea how planeswalkers usually protect themselves? Can you name a single Planeswalker card that makes 4/4 at 5 mana with a positivie loyalty ability? Not to mention again, that those creatures get even more bigger at every turn. Not only this is NOT inefficent, but is the most efficent PW that protect itself with a creature in all magic history for that mana cost.
if you're playing that walker for anything othet than the -7, you're better of just running Titan of Industry.
You dont play Titan at 5 mana and Titan doesnt destroy things or make creatures at every single turn like Nissa but only at ETB. You are hugely understimating the versatility and inevitability and continuous source of card advantage that this PW offer for her cost.
when dropped at 7 in a regular monogreen board, it will more often than not just win the game.
No dude, because even if you cast 1000 creatures in one turn they can easily be wiped out by any mass removal next turn. It's much, much harder to get rid of creatures AND planeswalker using a single card, so you really understimate too much with how many decks would struggle to kill both Nissa and the tokens she makes without them going on severe card disadvantage.
this is pretty much a "3GGGG Sorcery, creatures you control get +x/+x and trample until end of turn"
What? Did you ever read her +1? This is a free token generator at eldrazi-size level that get even bigger while gaining loyalty at each turn. You do the -7 only if you actually need to win and close the game in that turn, but otherwise the amount of board advantage she create while protecting herself is overwhelming. I'm not sure we're reading the same card. If Titan of Industry makes a token any random board wipe clears the threat, but I don't know how many gods you must pray to be able to remove her and her virtually infinite factory of monsters. (oh and also you can't cast Titan at 5 mana if you need it).
Ob Nixilis Reignited is a 30 cent card. she is just a variation of him.
Since you are comparing her with Nixilis:
- her +1 has much more potential than Nixilis (+1 counters, -1 counters, other planeswalkers, charge counters etc. This is super useful especially for commander purpose)
- her mana cost is more flexible than Nixilis
- -2 is very versatile and you can target your own stuff if you need mana (ex: token decks). Not only get around indestructible but you can do her minus ability from 2 to 3 times in a row, something Nixilis can't do. That's huge.
- ultimate obv makes sense mostly in a infect deck but most of the PWs shouldnt be judge by how likely they reach their ultimate but how the immediately impact the board. Never mind that if you manage to do the -9 and then play another Vraska or making survive the first Vraska, she actually combo with herself with the proliferate and doesnt even really need additional sinergy with any infect card at all.
I don't know how much she will be played in Standard, by there are far much worse PWs than her. I would gladly play her in 1 or 2 of my EDH decks.
All you need is a Toxic 1 to hit
You don't even need that. Any proliferate effect (including her 0) do the work to kill the player.
In which word stopping any sort of ETB ability is weak?
if you compare this ability to Sheoldred or Gitaxias she is weak. They function all the time regardless of what you or your opponent play. The new Elesh? Not so much. So definitely she is not the strongest praetor and her ability doesn't give her proper justice to her status in the magic lore.
Jin Gitaxias is so easy to play around is not even funny
I'm not sure if I am not getting your comment or you not getting which Gitaxias I'm talking about.
Of course i'm talking about the kamigawa one, we are comparing preators within their Cycle why would I compare it with OG Jin Gitaxias
Because you are quoting my posts and in my posts I was generally talking about any Praetor of any version (specifically I compared Elesh with the 10 mana Gitaxias). The fact the new Norn still got a nicher ability of most Praetors still stands as true.
Excuse me, are you a bot or something? You gave me a pre-constructed answer that is a non-sequitur and totally unrelated of what I just said to you. Of course I don't give a single f*k of table, chairs or prizes or a place to play. Me and my friends already have places to play, either online (making for example telegram or facebook magic groups and play on cockatrice) or in real life meeting in each other houses. Most of Commanders and kitchen table players as I said don't give a literal f*k to LGS and I already told you that many don't even know what an LGS is and still play happily as ever. We, casual players care only about the social aspect of Magic with small circle of friends and unlike the prizes and tournaments sanctioned by WotC in competitive formats, that's something where LGS are easily out of the equation.
Now repeat with me : "WotC could even go bankrupt today and me and my friends would still play Commander for the rest of our lifes." and write it in the whiteboard 100 times like Bart of the Simpsons, until you finally grasp this very little and simple concept in your brain, ok?
Eh? Not really. Never been the case with me or my playgroup. Remember that -how Mark Rosewater always stess out- the most high number of magic players in the world are the casual kitchen table one, which means people that doesn't even know what's an LGS. And since Commander is also the most played format in Magic worldwide currently means also that many casual kitchen table playgroups all around the world, exactly like me and my friends never needed in 10+ years of Commander play, the existence of a LGS, if not maybe only to buy a precon EDH deck. Anyway nowadays we proxy everything, so we don't even need it for that reason. Oh and of course, free online programs like Cockatrice are another big deal of why not only we don't need the LGS but not even a physical space at all in order to play together if necessary. You must realize that Commander is a totally different beast than tournaments formats like standard or modern and doesn't have the same restrictions or limitations these formats have but follow his own rules. As I said WotC could go bankrupt today and I and my friends would still play Commander for the rest of our lifes.
Well you got your explanations, you're just going to ignore it, just because you don't like them apparently.
You literally just said in your first post:
"I really don’t get why ONE doesn’t use +1/+1 counters just like the rest of magic"
So I'm glad you get now, even if you don't agree with it.
1) Because exist cards that cares about oil counters removed or added or present on permanents (Churning Reservoir, Magmatic Sprinter, The Filigree Sylex, Cinderlash Ravager etc ), creating new and unique design space to explore.
2) Oil counters are more versatile than +1/+1 counters because they can also act as charge counters for non-creature permanents, creating once again new and unique design space to explore that +1 counters wouldnt fulfill.
3) Oil counters are great flavor-wise and helps to add a distinct mechanical identity to Phyrexians like toxic, phyrexian mana, proliferate or poison matter cards.
4) It's inelegant to track in one card multiple types of counters, so the less, the better, especially for limited environment. The fact that sometimes they are willing to add more counter-matter complexity like in Ikoria or New Capenna, doesn't mean must be the norm for every single set, and especially in this case where are mechanical and synergistic reasons to make massive use of oil counters.
Just because you don't understand why they make certain design choices, doesn't mean there aren't any valid reasons behind it.
I honestly don't see how that is such a big deal. First of all, I don't see how a higher percentage of legends is bad : legendary is a drawback mechanic and greatly helps to keep in check power creep problems as a balancing tool, from a mechanical viewpoint, so the more, the better. Second, flavorwise, more legends mean also more chance to flesh out the lore of the game through the cards and that's a positive thing, since pre-commander times so many and many interesting characters were (and are still) without any cards to represent them (right Crucius? Pontifex? Taysir? etc), and EDH is a great opportunity to make them part of the game and not only the lore.
Third, the upsides of the commander format rising for gameplay benefits are IMHO much highers than the "downsides" you are showing. For example, the reason of why WotC decided to errata cards that has functional Surveil and Landfall but was not spelled out in the card, was for the reason to make this cards play better in eternal formats in sinergy with other cards that mention said mechanic (like Surveil), and EDH is a big part of it. It's the same reason we now see many mechanic as 1-of even in Premiere Sets (like ONE having Flashback and Affinity), now Designers have the freedom to push a set design complexity, because exactly of EDH players that are used to complexity in the format where all sets in magic history are legal. (and as usual, I'm not making up this, but is for explicit admission of WotC, here's Gavin Verhey saying exactly these things) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUTysFUNdjc
You don't like this new direction of Magic? Yeah cool that's fine. But for god's sake, don't have such dramatical take that all this for Magic future is objectively and absolute terrible and EDH players and formats should be blamed of things you simply don't like that you label as severe game health problems, because the only one that sounds delusional here is actually you.
What problem and what blame exactly?
Lets say me and my friends are EDH players. We play almost exclusively EDH and buy EDH products. Maybe we even spend money more than the average modern or standard player because we like to make many decks and we're not interested on other formats. What is our fault in that? That we play and support only one format and WotC please our requests? Really this makes me and my friends the problem? What is the alternative? "Stop enjoying so much what you enjoy"? For real?
I am just saying that EDH players are the ones that can always give a middle finger to any WotC decisions at any time, because of the nature itself of the format, WotC has very little grasp on the infinite ramifications of edh community and playgroups, since we don't need an LGS, tournaments, expensive staples or even real cards for that matter, in order to have fun with Magic. Our system works and that's also why is so successful.
Magic is not the same because of EDH? As always, Magic changes constantly and evolves with the needs of the players. Many times Magic risked to die because of the drastical changes it had in all those years (creation of standard format, 6th edition rules changes, the creation of the planeswalker cards etc) and even with all the radical changes is still Magic. You can choose to adapt to what Magic is now and find your niche or just leave the game if doesnt please you anymore, but blaming EDH players for your personal frustrations with the state of the game doesn't seem a constructive solution to me.
Probably the competitive and tournament part of Magic is like that, but EDH is actually much more similar in D&D freedom (which is not exactly nothing considering that Commander is the current format most played worldwide across Magic fans, by admission on WotC herself, making nowadays almost all MTG products specifically aimed at commander players). In EDH every playgroup can change any rules or banlist of magic they want with the Rule 0 philosphy and proxies are highly encouraged, destroying completely all the "collectible / high price entry" issue and in kitchen table envinroment nobody check or cares if you play with real cards or changes the rules at all. Having a good social experience is more important than having a good collection or win-rate in your LGS. Rule 0 extend to the point that Some people even make their own custom cards and decks, which is similar to the process of the D&D party making their own adventure and lore instead of following the official manual ones. Which is I guess why EDH players aren't even angry directly at WotC most of the times, they will basically do the ***** they want to do anyway for the rest of their lives with the game, even if WotC would just bankrupt today.
They are different beasts, what can't do one scepter is reached by another one and viceversa (like proliferate or sac-engine). Also, what mana dorks on earth taps for 5 or more mana? Every mana dork that taps for more than 2 or 3 mana usually requires other cards on battlefields (like Priest of Titania or Circle of Dream Druids), so it's not even a true 2 card combo, while this Staff is more efficent even with zero cards in hand and board state alone at almost any time of the game.
No, the +1 see a bunch of random cards to put in hand, in next turn you cast one or 2 of them (IF opponent don't counter) and in the turn after that MAYBE you gonna have a chance to attack with said cards (if opponent don't remove them). Which is durdling around in my book, since Nissa already kicked the ass twice with the eldrazi vanillas already. talking about putting pressure, eh?
I'm talking about High Power EDH, around Level 8, not your typical kitchen table casual with precons.
100% this. For F*cking Real LOL
Why it need to be instant? I just said that if you make a Titan with 1 or 1000 tokens, unless you got a haste enabler, they will all be wipe out from any sorcery speed board removal. And if you think there are no instant boardwipe in standard, think of how many board wipes in standard that deal planeswalkers and creatures at same time.
Oh wow, so that means an opponent just lost a creature and/or a card just to deal and pass through her first token, while you Nissa is still very likely alive meanwhile. Now you see why I say that opponents can't deal with nissa and her armies without going on card disadvantage, and card disadvantage make game loss on long term?
I literally didnt understood what you just wrote here. How come is Vivien better than Nissa after a farewell? If you want immediate board presence that kick ass the opponent instead of durdling around Nissa is just better.
I wasn't talking about only Standard but impact presence in EDH as well. And there the life points loss it's irrelevant.
INEFFICENT? Do you have any idea how planeswalkers usually protect themselves? Can you name a single Planeswalker card that makes 4/4 at 5 mana with a positivie loyalty ability? Not to mention again, that those creatures get even more bigger at every turn. Not only this is NOT inefficent, but is the most efficent PW that protect itself with a creature in all magic history for that mana cost.
You dont play Titan at 5 mana and Titan doesnt destroy things or make creatures at every single turn like Nissa but only at ETB. You are hugely understimating the versatility and inevitability and continuous source of card advantage that this PW offer for her cost.
No dude, because even if you cast 1000 creatures in one turn they can easily be wiped out by any mass removal next turn. It's much, much harder to get rid of creatures AND planeswalker using a single card, so you really understimate too much with how many decks would struggle to kill both Nissa and the tokens she makes without them going on severe card disadvantage.
What? Did you ever read her +1? This is a free token generator at eldrazi-size level that get even bigger while gaining loyalty at each turn. You do the -7 only if you actually need to win and close the game in that turn, but otherwise the amount of board advantage she create while protecting herself is overwhelming. I'm not sure we're reading the same card. If Titan of Industry makes a token any random board wipe clears the threat, but I don't know how many gods you must pray to be able to remove her and her virtually infinite factory of monsters. (oh and also you can't cast Titan at 5 mana if you need it).
Since you are comparing her with Nixilis:
- her +1 has much more potential than Nixilis (+1 counters, -1 counters, other planeswalkers, charge counters etc. This is super useful especially for commander purpose)
- her mana cost is more flexible than Nixilis
- -2 is very versatile and you can target your own stuff if you need mana (ex: token decks). Not only get around indestructible but you can do her minus ability from 2 to 3 times in a row, something Nixilis can't do. That's huge.
- ultimate obv makes sense mostly in a infect deck but most of the PWs shouldnt be judge by how likely they reach their ultimate but how the immediately impact the board. Never mind that if you manage to do the -9 and then play another Vraska or making survive the first Vraska, she actually combo with herself with the proliferate and doesnt even really need additional sinergy with any infect card at all.
I don't know how much she will be played in Standard, by there are far much worse PWs than her. I would gladly play her in 1 or 2 of my EDH decks.
You don't even need that. Any proliferate effect (including her 0) do the work to kill the player.
Because you are quoting my posts and in my posts I was generally talking about any Praetor of any version (specifically I compared Elesh with the 10 mana Gitaxias). The fact the new Norn still got a nicher ability of most Praetors still stands as true.