and those cards are thrash in competitive metagames of Vintage and Legacy (and CEDH, save Wizards from the Beyond and M'Odo)
"These cards are bad. Except the ones that are broken. Well, they are broken".
Wizards from the Beyond completely destroy the format both conceptually and from a power level perspective.
Sure, but if hypotethically those cards were eternal legal, you would just ban the single problematic ones, not all of them, exactly how WotC and RC do all the time (Conspiracies were the one recent exception). Only because Wizard from Beyond is broken, why I should ban also stuff like Chandra, Gremlin Wrangler, Dungeon Master or Kahris & the Beholder that not only work currently perfectly fine in black border rules, not only were visionary and unique designs that predates all the D&D sets crossovers, but are even on the weak side of the power level, making them perfectly safe, fun and not unbalanced in said eternal formats? That's why is super silly in kitchen table realm to not play or accept them just because are not legal in official formats and Rule 0 of Commander can perfectly apply here with no problem whatsoever.
But A: your examples both already functioned in black border before being released as such (and The Cheese Stands Alone was modified)
Well at least half of the HOTR cards function perfectly well in black border (some of them with slight official updates in the CR) and the other half is still fun and playable for acorn games.
That doesn't mean their balanced and it doesn't mean it's a good idea to pop them in boosters and set them loose on a draft format or a competitive metagame.
Those are clearly cards that would fit more in Commander pre-cons (not a cheap price, that's for sure) and just in eternal formats, and those cards are thrash in competitive metagames of Vintage and Legacy (and CEDH, save Wizards from the Beyond and M'Odo)
Anyway still zero news about the missing 001 card?
This is the problem I have with Heroes of the Realm cards because all it does is divide the Magic community further through class warfare not in terms of how it's defined in Dungeons & Dragons but through a real life economical class system between the poor, middle class, and rich in Commander. Oh you're a peasant that doesn't own a real copy of Elusen, the Giving? Go run Karona, False God or Phelddagrif. It's actually kind of insulting to those who want to play these Heroes of the Realm cards in Commander but can't due to circumstances beyond their control unless they decide to proxy them. It also doesn't help that the print run of these cards are extremely low.
It's already scummy enough that they print and design mechanically unique Commanders as Secret Lair Drops but it's even worse when Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro prints and designs cards solely to keep for themselves instead of sharing them with the rest of the Magic community all while expecting us to pay double or triple the price on their Paper Magic products with lower quality and bad card design. No wonder why Reserve List prices are tanking right now because everyone is liquidating their collections just to get through this terrible economy right now. It's hard for me to be optimistic about Paper Magic when Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro continues to screw themselves over time and time again.
Hahahaha good one!
This IS a troll post, right?
Unfortunately no. If you check this user posts history, you will see that he's literally obsessed with his conspiracy theories and try to put them in every context possible.
I literally made two examples of two cards never meant to be played in any format but just to be readed to make a laugh that made in black border in identical form. If this is possible, anything is possibile, and therefore, also for the Heroes of the Realms cards. That is "so".
It is a net positive that these are not legal and there is no need to be mad about them being given as gifts to employees.
Mad me? I never gave a f*k about legality in kitchen table realm in all my life lol, the biggest MtG way to play in the whole world as Mark Rosewater always remind us. I regularly play Unorthodox Uncommander with my friends for over a decade and not only we had TONS of fun already with the previous HoTR cards, but we will have a blast even with those, despite -and actually in spite of- all the guys like you that says that wouldn't never see them in their games or in the game as a whole I just want to prove that so many observations about what's "wrong" on those cards are just fallacies or mere prejudices and subjective opinions.
My point is not to say that none of these cards should ever see the light of day in any form as much as that it's reasonably evident they weren't designed with the intention that they play well.
You can never know this. So many cards that were crazy ideas at first were born as silly non-serious cards meant more to be readed than be played and then after years design decided it was the time to make them real. See The Cheese Stands Alone that became Barren Glory, Enchantmentize that became just one year later One With the Stars (it's literally the same exact card save the different name) and several others, so even those Heroes of the Realms could possibly be a glint of a near or remote future for a near equivalent black-border version, who knows. Sure thing is that Wotc is making so many new cards at such quick rate with a blatant power creep especially in supplemental sets, that the chances that this could happens are definitely higher than 0%. That's why I take even those cards very seriously, they could be in any form a prefiguration of the future of Magic that could be.
Still, this one card being functional with a minor rules addition and not broken in no way supports your original contention that Wizards producing a fun employee gift constitutes "class warfare."
Excuse me? Where did I actually ever said that in this thread? I just said that your particular combo argument about Elusen was a fallacy, nothing more, nothing less.
Oh, sorry. That was Card Slinger J. Your first reply to me was quoting responses to their post and I didn't notice you were someone else.
That's ok. Anyway, I wanna also point out that also your other arguments against the other cards are pretty much...arguable:
1) Heroes of Kamigawa. Yes, very problematic logicistically (albeit one could argue that as an Arena-only card the Alchemy format with slight twitch on the card could easily solve that) but I don't think it's a real power level issue, just feels regular acorn territory.
2) Elusen is totally a card WotC could print legal in eternal formats and specifically for a commander product with an update on the rules of what "donate" means (either referring something to owner or controller feel relatively safe to me) and is definetely in the weak side of power level, nobody in CEDH would probably ever play him, this is no Slicer for sure.
3) Svega. Yes, for the 50+ cards thing has definitely memory issues but it's a card that could fit perfectly for being Arena-only in Alchemy and Brawl legal (so much weaker with a much limited card pool of choices). But even if this was regular Commander legal, I highly doubt would be a Tier 1 Commander in CEDH. Nobody in CEDH ever play superfriends, it's a slow and clunky strategy and PW for their nature are pretty fragile to be on board as any player can attack them. In you example You would summon T3feri just to watch him die everytime, while you spend a turn every time just to recast Svega, while your opponents can continue to kill your PWs and just continue their business to win the game with untapped mana. So yes strong, very strong for Power level 7-8 environments, but not actually so much impressive in actual competitive play.
4) Wizard from Beyond. This is the only card I actually agree is broken and problematic for power level issues printed as it is, but as I showed in a precedent post, even this could be played in relatively harmless ways in casual environments because it's the perfect place-holder for every Commnader that players are waiting that WotC print for them in the colors they want. To make this much more clunkier, slow and more unappealing to competitive players (but still perfectly playable for the casual crowd) I would have added the clause that you can't cast your commander unless you would have this card on the battlefield before.
Still, this one card being functional with a minor rules addition and not broken in no way supports your original contention that Wizards producing a fun employee gift constitutes "class warfare."
Excuse me? Where did I actually ever said that in this thread? I just said that your particular combo argument about Elusen was a fallacy, nothing more, nothing less.
Elusen the Giving is relatively reasonable, but uses an undefined keyword and would most likely be used for infinite combos with Discerning Financier,
That's not a relevant argument. Most if not all legendary creatures or planeswalkers legal as commanders eventually go infinite in some way with one or even more cards, it's a physiological process for a +30.000 card pieces game. And even if I just name a bunch of them is more than enough to make invalid your argument.
That's sort of the point. It's not really bringing anything particularly new, it would just be another combo enabler commander.
I tought your argument, among the others was more like "This can't be legal, because going infinite is not good for the game", but my point was to prove that so many things go accidentally infinite in this format and in a much more efficent way, that is a poor argument in order to prove that would be an unfun or unbalanced card to play against (no more than everything already legal in the format).
Personally I think that being a donate-tribal commander with green color identity is novel enough to make it pretty different in gameplay from both Zedruu or Blim, Comedic Genius.
You're wrong, the card is a joke. Any nonlegendary creature as your commander and you get to play whatever colors you want? Utterly busted. The card does 100% of its job without you ever casting it.
True, it's super-broken if you wanna break the card, but it's also a super satisfying place-holder for all current missing designs for casual players. For example, it's over two decades I want that fairy tribal deck with blue, black, green (and recently white) color identity. Now I can have it and choose Willow Priestess that work super-well as a commander for tribal fairies. Or what about a phyrexian tribal deck that includes all preator's but the best we got is simply the 4 color Atraxa? Now I can choose something like Realmwalker that gives you all the Urabrask cards, Lukka, Bound to Ruin, Etali, Primal Conqueror and other sweets red phyrexian themed cards, and so on. Yes, Sol Advocate Eternal already exist but this time is pentacolor so we got all colors availables and the legal Morophon, the Boundless is simply unplayable junk.
By the way, any news about the last Heroes of the Realm card not spoiled yet?
Elusen the Giving is relatively reasonable, but uses an undefined keyword and would most likely be used for infinite combos with Discerning Financier,
That's not a relevant argument. Most if not all legendary creatures or planeswalkers legal as commanders eventually go infinite in some way with one or even more cards, it's a physiological process for a +30.000 card pieces game. And even if I just name a bunch of them is more than enough to make invalid your argument.
Aren't this card just for fun and illigal in every play mode? I thought that only some wotc staff get the cards.
sheldon Menery said the cards are legal in commander for the people who own the card(s).
According to MTG Wiki this is only half true.
From MTG Wiki:
Since these cards don't have the regular Magic card back, they aren't legal in any format but the Commander Rules Committee has made an exception for Commander if the person playing the card is the person whose name is on that card.[6]
The person receiving the card is noted in the right corner above the legal text "TM & C Wizard of the Coast" or under the power and toughness.
i mean I woundn't stop anybody to play those cards if they own them for some reason...
twitter posts are not mtg rules so those cards are not legal anywhere.
otoh i see no reason to stop anyone from playing them if every player agrees.
Yup. In kitchen table world, everything can be legal at anytime lol
Having the rules on the card seem a little more practical than fiddling with your phone lol
Maybe 20 years ago...this is not true anymore since a LONG time (at least since the "Venture the Dungeon" mechanics...ah no...since the "Monarch" mechanic). Also, you need the phone to check the correct oracle text of a card, rules doubts interactions, card price etc....you always need it and always use it for a reason or another, because that's what's Magic, a damn complicated game, literally the most complex game in the world, what are you expecting then? In my LGS we check the phone all the time for all the reasons, and is completely normal to do so, so what's the big deal? Once again, we're in the 2023, not 1993 lol
uuh yeah it is still true lol, it's easier if it's just on the card
No dude, I meant another thing : that is not true anymore that the rules of the card are on the card, and like in many cases, like in the venture mechanic, would be simply impossibile to physically fit everything on the rules text. Once again, welcome to 2023 (almost 2024).
I can almost guarantee you that if I said "it's much easier to look it up on a phone" you'd be saying "No! It should be on the card!!!". Also who cares what year it is. We should all be playing Arena and never buy physical cards if that's where you're going. Never buy a physical book again or a vinyl. Why buy a classic car when you can get an electric prius. Who needs an acoustic guitar, I have garage band on my phone! It's almost 2024!! lol come on man
For what is worth I already play online-only on cockatrice since a decade, I read only e-books for envinromental, house space and other practical reasons and never seen a vynil in my life, so your argument doesn't work on me. If anything, you are just reinforcing the idea that some people like to be stuck in the past for romantical and nostalgic reasons but absolutely inefficent from a practical and rational point.
I can almost guarantee you that if I said "it's much easier to look it up on a phone" you'd be saying "No! It should be on the card!!!".
No, that's Mergatroid_Jones thesis, not mine. What I am saying is that complexity creep in this game reached a point that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE (as Venture the Dungeon, Initiative, Tempt the Rings, not to mention Spellbooks of Alchemy etc.) to look at the rule text of a card to know what fully does, and that's because Magic is not the same game as was in the '90, so that's why it's dumb to complain things that would make sense to complain in the '90 (the lack of internet and smartphones), but just makes you looks like a prehistoric dinosaur with today's standards. Progress will not wait you, deal with it.
I like cube, so it doesn't matter that I know what riot does offhand. I need the card to tell people what it does who may not have been playing at exactly the moment riot came out, or may not remember since it was a random one-off mechanic. I can tell you for a fact if my sister saw riot without reminder text, she'd groan, roll her eyes, and say in an annoyed tone "okay, so what hell is riot?" I don't like annoying my players, alienating less experienced players, or making players give away information.
This is the most practical way to handle everything in this game.
Having the rules on the card seem a little more practical than fiddling with your phone lol
Maybe 20 years ago...this is not true anymore since a LONG time (at least since the "Venture the Dungeon" mechanics...ah no...since the "Monarch" mechanic). Also, you need the phone to check the correct oracle text of a card, rules doubts interactions, card price etc....you always need it and always use it for a reason or another, because that's what's Magic, a damn complicated game, literally the most complex game in the world, what are you expecting then? In my LGS we check the phone all the time for all the reasons, and is completely normal to do so, so what's the big deal? Once again, we're in the 2023, not 1993 lol
uuh yeah it is still true lol, it's easier if it's just on the card
No dude, I meant another thing : that is not true anymore that the rules of the card are on the card, and like in many cases, like in the venture mechanic, would be simply impossibile to physically fit everything on the rules text. Once again, welcome to 2023 (almost 2024).
What Universe Beyond one?
Sure, but if hypotethically those cards were eternal legal, you would just ban the single problematic ones, not all of them, exactly how WotC and RC do all the time (Conspiracies were the one recent exception). Only because Wizard from Beyond is broken, why I should ban also stuff like Chandra, Gremlin Wrangler, Dungeon Master or Kahris & the Beholder that not only work currently perfectly fine in black border rules, not only were visionary and unique designs that predates all the D&D sets crossovers, but are even on the weak side of the power level, making them perfectly safe, fun and not unbalanced in said eternal formats? That's why is super silly in kitchen table realm to not play or accept them just because are not legal in official formats and Rule 0 of Commander can perfectly apply here with no problem whatsoever.
Well at least half of the HOTR cards function perfectly well in black border (some of them with slight official updates in the CR) and the other half is still fun and playable for acorn games.
Those are clearly cards that would fit more in Commander pre-cons (not a cheap price, that's for sure) and just in eternal formats, and those cards are thrash in competitive metagames of Vintage and Legacy (and CEDH, save Wizards from the Beyond and M'Odo)
Anyway still zero news about the missing 001 card?
Unfortunately no. If you check this user posts history, you will see that he's literally obsessed with his conspiracy theories and try to put them in every context possible.
I literally made two examples of two cards never meant to be played in any format but just to be readed to make a laugh that made in black border in identical form. If this is possible, anything is possibile, and therefore, also for the Heroes of the Realms cards. That is "so".
Mad me? I never gave a f*k about legality in kitchen table realm in all my life lol, the biggest MtG way to play in the whole world as Mark Rosewater always remind us. I regularly play Unorthodox Uncommander with my friends for over a decade and not only we had TONS of fun already with the previous HoTR cards, but we will have a blast even with those, despite -and actually in spite of- all the guys like you that says that wouldn't never see them in their games or in the game as a whole
You can never know this. So many cards that were crazy ideas at first were born as silly non-serious cards meant more to be readed than be played and then after years design decided it was the time to make them real. See The Cheese Stands Alone that became Barren Glory, Enchantmentize that became just one year later One With the Stars (it's literally the same exact card save the different name) and several others, so even those Heroes of the Realms could possibly be a glint of a near or remote future for a near equivalent black-border version, who knows. Sure thing is that Wotc is making so many new cards at such quick rate with a blatant power creep especially in supplemental sets, that the chances that this could happens are definitely higher than 0%. That's why I take even those cards very seriously, they could be in any form a prefiguration of the future of Magic that could be.
That's ok. Anyway, I wanna also point out that also your other arguments against the other cards are pretty much...arguable:
1) Heroes of Kamigawa. Yes, very problematic logicistically (albeit one could argue that as an Arena-only card the Alchemy format with slight twitch on the card could easily solve that) but I don't think it's a real power level issue, just feels regular acorn territory.
2) Elusen is totally a card WotC could print legal in eternal formats and specifically for a commander product with an update on the rules of what "donate" means (either referring something to owner or controller feel relatively safe to me) and is definetely in the weak side of power level, nobody in CEDH would probably ever play him, this is no Slicer for sure.
3) Svega. Yes, for the 50+ cards thing has definitely memory issues but it's a card that could fit perfectly for being Arena-only in Alchemy and Brawl legal (so much weaker with a much limited card pool of choices). But even if this was regular Commander legal, I highly doubt would be a Tier 1 Commander in CEDH. Nobody in CEDH ever play superfriends, it's a slow and clunky strategy and PW for their nature are pretty fragile to be on board as any player can attack them. In you example You would summon T3feri just to watch him die everytime, while you spend a turn every time just to recast Svega, while your opponents can continue to kill your PWs and just continue their business to win the game with untapped mana. So yes strong, very strong for Power level 7-8 environments, but not actually so much impressive in actual competitive play.
4) Wizard from Beyond. This is the only card I actually agree is broken and problematic for power level issues printed as it is, but as I showed in a precedent post, even this could be played in relatively harmless ways in casual environments because it's the perfect place-holder for every Commnader that players are waiting that WotC print for them in the colors they want. To make this much more clunkier, slow and more unappealing to competitive players (but still perfectly playable for the casual crowd) I would have added the clause that you can't cast your commander unless you would have this card on the battlefield before.
Excuse me? Where did I actually ever said that in this thread? I just said that your particular combo argument about Elusen was a fallacy, nothing more, nothing less.
I tought your argument, among the others was more like "This can't be legal, because going infinite is not good for the game", but my point was to prove that so many things go accidentally infinite in this format and in a much more efficent way, that is a poor argument in order to prove that would be an unfun or unbalanced card to play against (no more than everything already legal in the format).
Personally I think that being a donate-tribal commander with green color identity is novel enough to make it pretty different in gameplay from both Zedruu or Blim, Comedic Genius.
True, it's super-broken if you wanna break the card, but it's also a super satisfying place-holder for all current missing designs for casual players. For example, it's over two decades I want that fairy tribal deck with blue, black, green (and recently white) color identity. Now I can have it and choose Willow Priestess that work super-well as a commander for tribal fairies. Or what about a phyrexian tribal deck that includes all preator's but the best we got is simply the 4 color Atraxa? Now I can choose something like Realmwalker that gives you all the Urabrask cards, Lukka, Bound to Ruin, Etali, Primal Conqueror and other sweets red phyrexian themed cards, and so on. Yes, Sol Advocate Eternal already exist but this time is pentacolor so we got all colors availables and the legal Morophon, the Boundless is simply unplayable junk.
By the way, any news about the last Heroes of the Realm card not spoiled yet?
That's not a relevant argument. Most if not all legendary creatures or planeswalkers legal as commanders eventually go infinite in some way with one or even more cards, it's a physiological process for a +30.000 card pieces game. And even if I just name a bunch of them is more than enough to make invalid your argument.
Yup. In kitchen table world, everything can be legal at anytime lol
I'm pretty sure the casual EDH proxy community happily ignore whatever Sheldon or WotC has anything to say on the matter.
For what is worth I already play online-only on cockatrice since a decade, I read only e-books for envinromental, house space and other practical reasons and never seen a vynil in my life, so your argument doesn't work on me. If anything, you are just reinforcing the idea that some people like to be stuck in the past for romantical and nostalgic reasons but absolutely inefficent from a practical and rational point.
No, that's Mergatroid_Jones thesis, not mine. What I am saying is that complexity creep in this game reached a point that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE (as Venture the Dungeon, Initiative, Tempt the Rings, not to mention Spellbooks of Alchemy etc.) to look at the rule text of a card to know what fully does, and that's because Magic is not the same game as was in the '90, so that's why it's dumb to complain things that would make sense to complain in the '90 (the lack of internet and smartphones), but just makes you looks like a prehistoric dinosaur with today's standards. Progress will not wait you, deal with it.
No dude, I meant another thing : that is not true anymore that the rules of the card are on the card, and like in many cases, like in the venture mechanic, would be simply impossibile to physically fit everything on the rules text. Once again, welcome to 2023 (almost 2024).