I know this thread died (did y'all move to the Valakut discord?) but I figure I'll give something of an update.
I played with BtL for a bit, did play with Coatl. Coatl was meh, but it was before people started playing Astrolabe. Still haven't tried Labe.
I swapped to RUG for a bit, was on 3 Drawn from Dreams 2 Narset and it felt great to actually have a lot of cards in hand. Coatl was definitely better in RUG. Bolts were actually feeling good as well, when I've been on Path for forever.
I've gone full heretic and been playing TitanShift for the last couple days. I want to try playing OmenShift, except with Hour of Promise + Field of the Dead instead of Prismatic Omen + Valakut. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2611474#paper is where I want to start, not sure if Astrolabe + Coatl is going to stay in the deck. Only having 3 Snow basics hurts on that front.
I've started streaming the deck, trying to get about 1 league in a day on MTGO. Working the deck through its paces, trying to figure out what I want my list to be like. Haven't gotten around to Coatl yet. Two leagues in, got a 4-1 (very narrowly missed the 5-0), and a 3-2 (narrow loss to Elves, punted vs Jeskai Cat). I'm looking at Jeskai Cat as another deck that seems like it would be a lot of fun and similar to BtL.
You can catch my stream weekdays in the afternoon/evening EST. Probably starting around 6. Weekends should be closer to midday EST. Around 1 PM, or so. https://www.twitch.tv/arsteel8
Narset feels great so far. It's DTT 2.0. with extra text. Teferi is also great, but a pain in the butt to beat from the other side, since it shuts off suspend and Bring to Light. EoT Bring to Light with Teferi is great. Fetch a E-Witness for free, then hold up BtL for Cryptic if you'd like and start the Cryptic loop. Whenever you're ready to win, return the BtL instead of the Cryptic.
Skred isn't as good as Flame Slash because Desert and Forgotten Cave are too good to cut, and running them makes Skred inefficient.
I actually was poking around with that Ponza plan. My original list ran 8 Stone Rains maindeck but they didn't do enough for me. I ended up with just 4 Molten Rain in the sideboard. I did mention my try with the 10 Stone Rain sideboard plan but that wasn't enough to stop Tron. Land Destruction doesn't work unless you're Mono Black, running 20+ LD spells. The deck is too good at drawing cards and therefore lands. I'm seriously struggling to figure out how to beat it right now. Sadly the meta isn't unhealty enough for anything to eat a ban, so we're stuck trying to beat Tron for the next while.
Tested out 10 Stone Rains for a sideboard plan and took it through a league, went 2-3. I still can't beat tron and it's driving me insane. I'm onto 4 Relic 6 Blasts 4 Molten Rain.
Yeah, I'm grinding on MTGO right now. Desert makes the Delver matchups nearly unloseable. Hireling is good. It's not a win con, but card advantage
My current list for MTGO is here https://deckbox.org/sets/1919265 and I've been enjoying it a lot. I've abandoned the burn matchup to luck. No more Tanglebloom, I won't miss you. I'm running 2 extra Blasts in the board to help out with control/Tron, replacing 2 Electrickery. Also up to 4 Molten Rain to help as well. I'm interested in trying Smash to Smithereens over the Shamans at the moment, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
If I'm playing with Hireling, I'm cutting 2 Beetleback Chief and maybe one other card. I'm not sure if I want 2 or 3. If 2, I'll fit the third into the board. A 4/4 body is so massive, even if it has defender.
EDIT: Not super excited about Forked Bolt because it's a sorcery. I'm not planning on testing it out.
EDIT2: Also, Hireling is a wincon in my experience because it provides the burn to finish off your opponent while keeping the creatures down. If they're reliant on counterspells to stay alive, it lets you overwhelm those.
What matchups are you guys finding yourself winning by milling the opponent out? That's been my normal win con vs Delver a lot of the time. Having the Monarch will make you mill out first.
If you play Skred, you should definitely not be on Quicksands. It's debatable if you should be on anything *except* Snow Mountains, which is why I've been skeptical of trying it again. I also don't think that Burning Prophet is remotely playable in the deck. It's not a sturdy card, it's not a great clock, and the Scry, although nice, is attached to too small of a body. Maybe as an X/4... if it ends up being fantastic for you guys, make sure you let me know.
For those who have tried it more than me, how has Radiant Fountain been?
Hey all, thanks for the updates, and sorry for the slow response. @Upkeep Rakdos Carnarium was something I had been looking at as well. I saw some of your more recent lists were using it. What's your mana looking like at the moment?
The deck doesn't play very quickly, so I'm not sure Lightning Shrieker is the best of options as a repeatable Lava Axe. It's possible its a good enough of a damage boost to be worthwhile though. My only big thoughts are, well, the deviations from my list. Hordeling Outburst is okay I guess, but the 3 drop is already rather crowded, part of why I elected for Beetleback Chief. The other options, which may be better but I haven't tested, iare Flurry of Horns or Avarax. I've played a little with Avarax but it wasn't my favorite. Other thought is how awkward Fire at Will is. It can't go face when you're trying to close out the game, it requires RRR when you're playing 4 colorless lands and only 17 red sources... I think it's much better to just play Arc Lightning if you want the split damage effect, unless you're seeing a lot of Guardian of the Guildpact.
Due to the swarms of UB Delver, I suspect now is the time to play 21+ Snow Mountains and Skred, because Gurmag is a real pain, and UB Delver is really popular. Haven't played on MTGO in a while, might be time to give it a spin and some testing again.
@upkeep @DarkNinja, dunno if you'll read this, but how did Flurry of Horns and Guardian Idol turn out for you two? Had Skred been consistently big enough to kill things? And how was Radiant Fountain?
Oh good point about Dentention Sphere, I had definitely assumed you could toolbox it.
I've played some more matches online with the white splash BtL build, and have a few more thoughts/questions. Hunting Wilds has not impressed me, I never tutor for it, and when it's in my hand I usually wish it was something else. Remand has also been surprisingly not great.
A matchup that has wrecked me both times I've played it is Grixis Death Shadow. My hand always gets taken apart by Thoughtseize and IoK, they have countermagic, and they board in Surgical Extraction which can be pretty devastating especially after a thoughtseize. I've never even felt like I had a chance. Any thoughts on cards to improve this matchup? I already board in the Madcap Experiment package against them to get redundancy against Surgical, but maybe more creatures from the board would be good? Huntmaster of the Fells? I assume they'd board out creature removal on average. Maybe I should be bringing in grave hate against them? It checks Gurmag Angler and Snapcaster Mage to some extent.
Hey, sorry for the late reply. GDS is an awkward matchup at times, but with tight play I find it to be fine with my list. It also helps significantly that I'm on 2 Verdict 1 Anger instead of vice versa. Perhaps more significantly, I have Dispels and Negates in my sideboard to protect my hand and resolve my Scapeshifts. Honestly, I really don't like your sideboard. And yes, bring in your graveyard hate, at least if there are cards to cut. It helps cut off Kolaghan's Command, LtLH, Gurmag, Snappy, and other random things. I bring in Baloth as a chump blocker, occasional way to win the game, life gain, and making LotV/Kommand much worse/more awkward.
Hunting Wilds isn't a very important card and I side it out often enough, but I do think you're not using it enough if you don't tutor for it at all. If you have two bring to lights and 5 lands, tutor for Wilds for lethal the next turn. If you're against Jund and they resolve a Liliana, it's very good because it's two lands in one card, so you can discard excess lands. Like, it has its uses, but it's not always great. Some people play Mwonvuli Acid Moss instead, if you'd prefer that. Remand isn't in a sharp spot, but the card isn't ever really that bad. I've played without the card, and I still think it's correct to play 4.
Tron will probably have more fun with it but, I am interested to see how Hydroid Krasis performs in Scapeshift. It seems to check several boxes that I look for when looking for new cards to try in this deck. The draw cards seems to bring back a lot of what the original variant of scapeshift wanted with the addition of add health and the possibility of a flying trample creature if its not countered (and if it is countered, then they just used a counter spell anyways and you still got stuff from it). Thoughts?
Krasis seems playable only because it's uncounterable card draw that scales with mana. You don't play Sphinx's Rev because it's counterable. It's not going to be good enough, but it's a fun option.
I'm looking into picking up this deck-- seems like a lot of fun. One thing I don't understand is why black splash versions are having all the tournament success right now. Seems to me like white has analogues for all of the maindeck cards:
I like black splash because have Maelstrom pulse,abrupt decay, Assassins Trophy,fatal push,Damnation,hate anti combo,.. but today,white splash for path to exile for graveyard creatures is better.
Somebody play a Scapeshift with Wargate? I see a Scapeshift with 64 cards and Wargate in the modern Challenger.
I still don't have experience with the black splash yet as I don't own the black pieces IRL. I have two Trophy but would still need to pick up everything else for the deck. I own BtL White and very much enjoy it. Until Assassin's Trophy was around I didn't see any real draw to BtL Black over BtL White (just access to Slaughter Games, really). Note that Detention Sphere isn't a playable 1 of like Maelstrom Pulse because you can't tutor for it with Bring to Light because it's an enchantment.
Filter lands do see play, but generally just 1 of the U/G filter land over a second Breeding Pool.
Supreme Will is a good card. I personally replaced Worldly Counsel with it, and now have replaced Supreme Will with Search for Azcanta. It's not a bad choice.
I've yet to play Gateshift. I thought that deck was so long and dead before it started popping up lately. I think it would make great use of Growth Spiral just by looking at it. I'll get around to poking with it at some point online, but I doubt I'll purchase it in paper till I finish BtL Black.
Heyo, been forever. This deck ain't dead yet! And um, sideboard graveyard hate and Anger of the Gods?
Anyway, for those who haven't seen, Growth Spiral is a sick new instant speed Explore. I was initially excited at it replacing Farseek and maybe even a Steve or two in BtL, but now that I think about it I don't think it can replace the current ramp suite because it doesn't color fix at all. However, it seems like it would end up as a powerful option in RUG Scapeshift because color fixing isn't so essential, and the extra digging is appreciated. It could fit into BtL versions that have gone more aggressive on ramp that we saw a while ago in the hands of CJ Steele. As good as the card is, I'm not sure it will end up making the cut.
I went 3-1 at FNM with Wish Shift. Beat my older brother on Abzan Company, lost to UR Phoenix (never played against it before), beat UR Wizards (never played against it before), and beat KCI (never played against it before). The deck seems solid, and I think the sideboard plan of going up to 3 Angers with a bunch of other wipes mixed in really helps Scapeshift's weak spot in aggressive decks.
Yeah, I've been pretty impressed with it as well in the deck. Its presence in the format is making me dislike the Prismatic Omen plan a lot more than I have in the past though.
I've been doing more testing, and my latest innovation has been Outpost Siege as a way to get card advantage in Dark Petition Scapeshift. Unlike the planeswalkers we like to play sometimes, it's not that fragile, and it lets you play lands, which is awesome. I've been rather impressed with the card all things considered. It's not perfect, but it functions. Allowing me to play Hour of Devastation without killing my walkers has been really really nice. It's potentially an option in Blue Shift as well, but the non-bo with counterspells is holding me back. I'm curious how it would do in straight up TitanShift.
Also, I'm presently interested in going up to 3 Wraths in BtL right now. I've been on 2 Verdict 1 Anger for a while and I kinda want another.
@DJ_AGUILA can we get your most recent list? I'd like to see it.
A note from my brother: Mission Briefing is probably better than Snap in Blue Shift since it cares a lot less about 2/1 than most decks and actually digs for a Scapeshift, or whatever else you need. It doesn't do loop shenanigans with Cryptic like Snap, but I think Briefing has a slight edge without doing any testing.
Notably, I'm still on Eternal Witness instead of Snapcaster and I'd rather have access to Eternal Command shenanigans than Mission Briefing for now.
I prefer Path to Bolt because when I want something gone I want it *gone*. I generally don't find being able to kill planeswalkers relevant and hitting people's face to knock them below 18 and whatnot can be relevant, but I don't find myself wishing for that often in a format with shocks and fetches. Exile is awesome vs a lot of decks (see Vengevine/Death's Shadow) and I generally don't find the land to be too impactful since we are a big mana deck ourself. A partial compensation for such that is visible in my normal list (and kinda in Wish Shift) is that I run an extra board wipe. Giving them extra mana so they can dump creatures into a wrath is fun.
Basically, Bolt doesn't kill a bunch of things, and I'm looking for a way to remove creatures, not do other things like hit faces and planeswalkers. I don't feel a need to do those.
Why do you think white doesn't have similar effects? Frequently lists run Bolt instead of Push anyway.
White gets Supreme Verdict (uncounterable is better than no regenerate, and we could run Wrath anyway), Path to Exile (actually unconditional and *exiles*), then fantastic sideboard cards like RIP, Stony, and sometimes Leyline of Sanctity. White also makes Wish Shift a possibility.
Black gets Damnation (counterable), Fatal Push (doesn't give them a land, kills things Bolt couldn't, doesn't exile, is conditional), and Maelstrom Pulse (deals with corner cases really well). Sideboard it gets Slaughter Games. Now they get Trophy, which is better than Push and Pulse by a significant margin for us, since it deals with corner cases at instant speed cheaply, and is unconditional for removing anything that even Path could deal with. Better yet, it helps with our somewhat iffy Tron matchup as it takes out Tron lands while being maindeckable, and unlike Pulse we don't need to BtL for it.
Trophy is good against us because it's a GQ effect that hits us with the Valakut triggers on the stack, and we don't get to prepare for it like we would if we saw a GQ. Remember, due to the intervening if clause on Valakut, if we don't have enough mountains when the trigger tries to resolve, the trigger doesn't do anything, so if we don't have a Basic mountain in our deck it'll screw us up.
EDIT: Due to internet issues I posted twice on accident. I'm just leaving it, but oops
I played with BtL for a bit, did play with Coatl. Coatl was meh, but it was before people started playing Astrolabe. Still haven't tried Labe.
I swapped to RUG for a bit, was on 3 Drawn from Dreams 2 Narset and it felt great to actually have a lot of cards in hand. Coatl was definitely better in RUG. Bolts were actually feeling good as well, when I've been on Path for forever.
I've gone full heretic and been playing TitanShift for the last couple days. I want to try playing OmenShift, except with Hour of Promise + Field of the Dead instead of Prismatic Omen + Valakut. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2611474#paper is where I want to start, not sure if Astrolabe + Coatl is going to stay in the deck. Only having 3 Snow basics hurts on that front.
This is going to be my next list to league with https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681057#paper
You can catch my stream weekdays in the afternoon/evening EST. Probably starting around 6. Weekends should be closer to midday EST. Around 1 PM, or so. https://www.twitch.tv/arsteel8
Narset feels great so far. It's DTT 2.0. with extra text. Teferi is also great, but a pain in the butt to beat from the other side, since it shuts off suspend and Bring to Light. EoT Bring to Light with Teferi is great. Fetch a E-Witness for free, then hold up BtL for Cryptic if you'd like and start the Cryptic loop. Whenever you're ready to win, return the BtL instead of the Cryptic.
I actually was poking around with that Ponza plan. My original list ran 8 Stone Rains maindeck but they didn't do enough for me. I ended up with just 4 Molten Rain in the sideboard. I did mention my try with the 10 Stone Rain sideboard plan but that wasn't enough to stop Tron. Land Destruction doesn't work unless you're Mono Black, running 20+ LD spells. The deck is too good at drawing cards and therefore lands. I'm seriously struggling to figure out how to beat it right now. Sadly the meta isn't unhealty enough for anything to eat a ban, so we're stuck trying to beat Tron for the next while.
Tested out 10 Stone Rains for a sideboard plan and took it through a league, went 2-3. I still can't beat tron and it's driving me insane. I'm onto 4 Relic 6 Blasts 4 Molten Rain.
https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidJazzySquirrelPeanutButterJellyTime I'm streaming now, and this is an excellent clip of a punt. Note: I won the game anyway, killed with damage and they have no cards in play, hand, or library. If you guys care to catch my streams, feel free to follow me https://www.twitch.tv/arsteel8
My current list for MTGO is here https://deckbox.org/sets/1919265 and I've been enjoying it a lot. I've abandoned the burn matchup to luck. No more Tanglebloom, I won't miss you. I'm running 2 extra Blasts in the board to help out with control/Tron, replacing 2 Electrickery. Also up to 4 Molten Rain to help as well. I'm interested in trying Smash to Smithereens over the Shamans at the moment, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
If I'm playing with Hireling, I'm cutting 2 Beetleback Chief and maybe one other card. I'm not sure if I want 2 or 3. If 2, I'll fit the third into the board. A 4/4 body is so massive, even if it has defender.
EDIT: Not super excited about Forked Bolt because it's a sorcery. I'm not planning on testing it out.
EDIT2: Also, Hireling is a wincon in my experience because it provides the burn to finish off your opponent while keeping the creatures down. If they're reliant on counterspells to stay alive, it lets you overwhelm those.
What matchups are you guys finding yourself winning by milling the opponent out? That's been my normal win con vs Delver a lot of the time. Having the Monarch will make you mill out first.
For those who have tried it more than me, how has Radiant Fountain been?
Due to the swarms of UB Delver, I suspect now is the time to play 21+ Snow Mountains and Skred, because Gurmag is a real pain, and UB Delver is really popular. Haven't played on MTGO in a while, might be time to give it a spin and some testing again.
@upkeep @DarkNinja, dunno if you'll read this, but how did Flurry of Horns and Guardian Idol turn out for you two? Had Skred been consistently big enough to kill things? And how was Radiant Fountain?
Hey, sorry for the late reply. GDS is an awkward matchup at times, but with tight play I find it to be fine with my list. It also helps significantly that I'm on 2 Verdict 1 Anger instead of vice versa. Perhaps more significantly, I have Dispels and Negates in my sideboard to protect my hand and resolve my Scapeshifts. Honestly, I really don't like your sideboard. And yes, bring in your graveyard hate, at least if there are cards to cut. It helps cut off Kolaghan's Command, LtLH, Gurmag, Snappy, and other random things. I bring in Baloth as a chump blocker, occasional way to win the game, life gain, and making LotV/Kommand much worse/more awkward.
Hunting Wilds isn't a very important card and I side it out often enough, but I do think you're not using it enough if you don't tutor for it at all. If you have two bring to lights and 5 lands, tutor for Wilds for lethal the next turn. If you're against Jund and they resolve a Liliana, it's very good because it's two lands in one card, so you can discard excess lands. Like, it has its uses, but it's not always great. Some people play Mwonvuli Acid Moss instead, if you'd prefer that. Remand isn't in a sharp spot, but the card isn't ever really that bad. I've played without the card, and I still think it's correct to play 4.
Krasis seems playable only because it's uncounterable card draw that scales with mana. You don't play Sphinx's Rev because it's counterable. It's not going to be good enough, but it's a fun option.
I still don't have experience with the black splash yet as I don't own the black pieces IRL. I have two Trophy but would still need to pick up everything else for the deck. I own BtL White and very much enjoy it. Until Assassin's Trophy was around I didn't see any real draw to BtL Black over BtL White (just access to Slaughter Games, really). Note that Detention Sphere isn't a playable 1 of like Maelstrom Pulse because you can't tutor for it with Bring to Light because it's an enchantment.
Filter lands do see play, but generally just 1 of the U/G filter land over a second Breeding Pool.
Supreme Will is a good card. I personally replaced Worldly Counsel with it, and now have replaced Supreme Will with Search for Azcanta. It's not a bad choice.
I've yet to play Gateshift. I thought that deck was so long and dead before it started popping up lately. I think it would make great use of Growth Spiral just by looking at it. I'll get around to poking with it at some point online, but I doubt I'll purchase it in paper till I finish BtL Black.
Anyway, for those who haven't seen, Growth Spiral is a sick new instant speed Explore. I was initially excited at it replacing Farseek and maybe even a Steve or two in BtL, but now that I think about it I don't think it can replace the current ramp suite because it doesn't color fix at all. However, it seems like it would end up as a powerful option in RUG Scapeshift because color fixing isn't so essential, and the extra digging is appreciated. It could fit into BtL versions that have gone more aggressive on ramp that we saw a while ago in the hands of CJ Steele. As good as the card is, I'm not sure it will end up making the cut.
I went 3-1 at FNM with Wish Shift. Beat my older brother on Abzan Company, lost to UR Phoenix (never played against it before), beat UR Wizards (never played against it before), and beat KCI (never played against it before). The deck seems solid, and I think the sideboard plan of going up to 3 Angers with a bunch of other wipes mixed in really helps Scapeshift's weak spot in aggressive decks.
I've been doing more testing, and my latest innovation has been Outpost Siege as a way to get card advantage in Dark Petition Scapeshift. Unlike the planeswalkers we like to play sometimes, it's not that fragile, and it lets you play lands, which is awesome. I've been rather impressed with the card all things considered. It's not perfect, but it functions. Allowing me to play Hour of Devastation without killing my walkers has been really really nice. It's potentially an option in Blue Shift as well, but the non-bo with counterspells is holding me back. I'm curious how it would do in straight up TitanShift.
Also, I'm presently interested in going up to 3 Wraths in BtL right now. I've been on 2 Verdict 1 Anger for a while and I kinda want another.
@DJ_AGUILA can we get your most recent list? I'd like to see it.
Notably, I'm still on Eternal Witness instead of Snapcaster and I'd rather have access to Eternal Command shenanigans than Mission Briefing for now.
This is my WIsh Shift list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1227858#paper
I prefer Path to Bolt because when I want something gone I want it *gone*. I generally don't find being able to kill planeswalkers relevant and hitting people's face to knock them below 18 and whatnot can be relevant, but I don't find myself wishing for that often in a format with shocks and fetches. Exile is awesome vs a lot of decks (see Vengevine/Death's Shadow) and I generally don't find the land to be too impactful since we are a big mana deck ourself. A partial compensation for such that is visible in my normal list (and kinda in Wish Shift) is that I run an extra board wipe. Giving them extra mana so they can dump creatures into a wrath is fun.
Basically, Bolt doesn't kill a bunch of things, and I'm looking for a way to remove creatures, not do other things like hit faces and planeswalkers. I don't feel a need to do those.
White gets Supreme Verdict (uncounterable is better than no regenerate, and we could run Wrath anyway), Path to Exile (actually unconditional and *exiles*), then fantastic sideboard cards like RIP, Stony, and sometimes Leyline of Sanctity. White also makes Wish Shift a possibility.
Black gets Damnation (counterable), Fatal Push (doesn't give them a land, kills things Bolt couldn't, doesn't exile, is conditional), and Maelstrom Pulse (deals with corner cases really well). Sideboard it gets Slaughter Games. Now they get Trophy, which is better than Push and Pulse by a significant margin for us, since it deals with corner cases at instant speed cheaply, and is unconditional for removing anything that even Path could deal with. Better yet, it helps with our somewhat iffy Tron matchup as it takes out Tron lands while being maindeckable, and unlike Pulse we don't need to BtL for it.
Trophy is good against us because it's a GQ effect that hits us with the Valakut triggers on the stack, and we don't get to prepare for it like we would if we saw a GQ. Remember, due to the intervening if clause on Valakut, if we don't have enough mountains when the trigger tries to resolve, the trigger doesn't do anything, so if we don't have a Basic mountain in our deck it'll screw us up.
EDIT: Due to internet issues I posted twice on accident. I'm just leaving it, but oops