This last story was very good, probably one of the few that I actually liked featuring all planeswalkers. To be honest, this sort of story reminds me of a very similar type of story in the comic book medium: the interlude between two story arcs. I remember when reading Green Lantern that there was such an interlude where Hal Jordan goes to earth to drink a beer and meets Guy and Kyle, they have a conversation about life, have a bar fight, and he also talks with Carol Ferris about how he still loved her and all. These are powerful stories because show the characters being more human, without the fight for conquering worlds and stuff.
The problem, usually, is that writers rarely capture this same feeling in the regular arc of a story (in comic books), so the characters look a lot like parodies until you finally see them being actual humans in such interludes. Overall I wish more stories could capture the feelings of the planeswalkers like that without making they look like cliches. The only character I didn't like here was Ugin, I think he should have reacted differently, being more serious, maybe making some covert threat, I don't know. It felt as if he didn't care enough.
Well, let's hope Innistrad delivers more than BFZ did. I have high hopes for Innistrad, let's see if they will do it some justice.
I couldn't agree with this more. A lot of stories seem to forget their protagonists are humans (or whatever race) that are fighting FOR something (a loved one, their town, a normal life, freedom, etc.) and forget to actually show that side of them. I always try to mix that sort of thing into my stories.
The "slice of life" stuff, even in decidely non-slice-of-life times, are important because it shows that there is more than just the non-stop action and danger. No one wants to be in danger all the time. Even thrill seekers like to relax every now and again. I'm really glad we got a bit of time with the characters when they were just living. (I really liked the Chandra heating the blankets bit, and Chandra and Nissa's interactions overall.) It's important to show that the characters have lives beyond the fighting.
Also I didn't like Ugin in here at all. But then I've come to not really like Ugin as a character. Not that he's poorly written, I just don't like him.
And as a side note, I'm glad a lot of people have positive things to say about this UR. I think it deserves it.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
I agree with you, but I feel you'd agree with me when I say the writers didn't really deliver on any other method either. I feel they could have, if the readers felt more invested in characters not obviously protected by plot armor. None of the Origins Planeswalkers were in any personal danger (except maybe from Ob) so that sense had to come from the native Zendikari. This is what helped make Tazri's and Drana's stories good. Tazri was in very real and very legitimate danger, and Drana had a strong connection with the people following her which were also seriously threatened. Drana also had the benefit of being a leader in a much more difficult scenario than Gideon's. The story focused on the (protected) Planeswalkers though, so that sense of danger was less present.
As a side note, I know Nissa is a Zendikari but she really didn't feel like one. Other than that one occasion towards the beginning, she didn't seem to have any empathy towards the people of Zendikar and any time her past on the plane was brought up it was always in the context of her old self/personal demons.
Missed this. Yea, I do agree that the writers didn't really deliver on any method either. Hence why my overall opinion of the block story is a meh. I said all of that because I have a lot of strong opinions about writing and stories and a lot of people on this board were talking like there was no other way, that death HAD to happen or there was no way for this story to be any good. It could have been good, it just wasn't.
I debate the use of the term plot armor in relation to this story. I think people are too quick to cry "Plot Armor" just because they think someone should have died. Speaking as some one who beat a few odds in still being able to breath today, just because it was likely someone would die in a situation doesn't mean they should die in the story. Surviving incredibly bad odds does not instantly mean it was plot armor. That being said, when I think about this story, even I find it hard to make an argument that plot armor was NOT involved here. I'm still not quite jumping on the plot armor side, but I'm not sure it wasn't plot armor either.
1) I'm impressed that you can feel terrible due to death of nameless zendikari, honestly. People can get on the edge of their seats for scenes that are not related to death/dying or anything, but this BFZ story barely had moments like that for me. I suppose when Noyan Dar was almost killed for one of the Kozilek spawn that turned the roil against the roilmages was one such moment for me. One not related to death/dying (sort of) was when Jori En almost got stuck trying to get to the place where Kiora's bident was. That was tense. But these moments were very few.
2) I think I wasn't clear. What is storytelling 101 is 'not establish your threat by having it killing random folk'. That just serves one purpose: to show that the character is evil and capable of killing, but that doesn't evoke an emotional response in the readers yet (or most readers, I suppose). The threat has to kill someone that matters in the world described, because that taps into an emotional connection. People here thought Kozilek was more menacing than Ulamog. One of the reasons why, I assure you, is because Kozilek killed Lorthos right out of the bat. Lorthos was not a faceless character, even if he didn't have any exposition before in the story, he was known to the readers. Ulamog didn't directly kill anyone important, therefore he didn't seem as threatening.
3) Thank Heliod that they did something at least! But they didn't do what they're suppose to: destroy planes. They didn't finish the job. They ravaged Zendikar, sure, the plane might take years to recover, sure, but that doesn't matter in the long run. We are not going to revisit Zendikar soon, we are not going to stay and see it 'recovering' from the destruction, we may see some residual damage the next time, but that is far from the same of having the plane destroyed altogether. That is what the eldrazi are about, and that is what they didn't do.
This story started the wrong way and it had some moments where it seemed that it could correct its course, but in the end it was not good. That is because the cycle of 'showing why we should care', 'establishing the threats', 'defeating the threats' was not well accomplished at all. Anyhow, I understand your opinion might differ in some aspects, but a lot of people here are not asking for deaths for the sake of deaths. There is a purpose behind it, and that is why I addressed your original post.[/quote]
1)I don't know if I'd call it impressive, but thanks. Anyway, my main point was that a lot of people have been saying there was no tension because no one important died. It's just not true. If the story is crafted well enough, you do not NEED characters to died for there to be tension, even if life or death situations. I'm not saying this story was crafted well enough. I was just trying to point out that the story's failing lie elsewhere, not the lack of death.
2)Oh I won't lie, killing a well known character is certainly a quick way to draw a negative emotional response from your viewer. All I was saying is you don't need the threat to kill a well known character for him to be a perceived as a threat to the audience. It certainly accomplishes that very quickly, but there are other ways.
3)How many stories have we seen where something is going to destroy earth? Whether it be a monster, asteroid, magic, machine, whatever. The good guys win the day there, and the planet destroyer didn't do anything did it? But it was a planet destroyer. It just got stopped. My whole point was that just because they were something created as a plane destroyer does not mean they have to destroy every plane they come across.
Anyway, I see how what I'm saying might seem like I was saying people were just asking for death so that there was death. I do understand that there were reasons behind it. All I was arguing was that it's not NECESSARY, which some people seem to think. It could be used, it can have effect, but it's not required. This story could have been better than it was, even without using character death.
Usually I don’t say much anymore, for a number of reasons, but I had a couple of things that I really wanted to say.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
Oh boy, I didn't see this post of yours until I got home. I will say that I disagree with almost everything you said in regards to this story, with the exception of the last paragraph. That is funny, since it is your final conclusion. So, to get that out of the way first: yeah, the story could have been a lot worse, but that is definitely not something that I would look upon when seeking for positive aspects of a story, is it? I think the block as a whole was bad, with some good stories in it. The best stories (in a consensus here) usually involved legendary creatures (Noyan Dar, Drana, Tazri) and very few planeswalkers, that to me is a sign that this whole 'avengers assemble team' is a bad idea. There were some o-kayish stories with legendary creatures (Mina and Denn, Jori En) and some good planeswalkers stories (Jace and Jori, some of the very first Gideon stories). But that is about it.
People are not asking for deaths because they are all bloodthirsty murderers, but because the Eldrazi are one of the greatest threats of the multiverse and you have to get a feeling that everything is at stake. The plane, the people you love and care about, the important characters. There were very few moments when you actually felt something being at stake, come on. They lost their first battles, sure, so what? What did they lose? Nameless NPCs from their army? That does not transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers, and that is a terrible thing. What did their mistakes actually cost them? They didn't even had Ulamog released again due to a mistake of them, but due to a complete unpredicted element destroying their plan (Ob Nixilis), so where is the lesson here? Never give up? Sh** happens?
You are right about the fact that characters can grow in many ways, but that is not the point. We are not asking for deaths to have the characters grow, we are asking for it because it is what makes this whole scenario believable, it is what makes the Eldrazi a real multiversal threat. People die in wars as you said, and you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the Eldrazi ravage the land. Losing random red shirts is not the way to establish that, everyone knows it, this is "how to write a story 101". And besides, the quality of the writing was so poor at so many points that you're really pushing if you want us to believe that they could make the characters grow in any possible way. Take Kiora. She was completely destroyed by Kozilek, she had her pride and arrogance being her downfall and she learned NOTHING. Her posture BARELY changes, she still does what she thinks is right, the only difference between her pre-Kozi and after was the willingness to listen to Jace first, which is something that she should have had to begin with, since her first interaction with the Gatewatch was ridiculously over the top, angry hyperative teenager with 14 years old.
Finally, to the last of your points that I will adress: winning here doesn't make them powerful and incivible. Yes and no. It doesnt't make them invincible in the literal sense of the word, because we know there were a series of conveniences and absurdities that we had to accept to get to this point here (Nissa being the "chosen one" and using the power of Zendikar, Jace mastering the knowledge of the hedrons incredbly fast, Gideon tanking Ulamog, etc.). But it does make them invincible when you see the lengths that the writers are willing to go to make them win. Does it really matter if, on paper, they are just "powerful mages" when in truth Chandra released a fireball that killed two eldrazi titans? Does it really matter that Gideon has 'limits', but he can tank Ulamog, get tortured by Ob Nixilis and still have the stamina to stay alive and kicking? None of that makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the writers, because the protagonists have to shine and that is it. "Ah, but they had the help of factor A, B, C and D". Yeah, they did. And next time they won't, but there will be factor E, F, G, and H, and I bet everything is gonna be alright. This is terrible, terrible writing, and makes me really upset.
Zendikar should be destroyed not due to our bloodlust, but to make the Eldrazi become what they truly are: planar eating monstrosities. The fact that they didn't even consider this idea is a joke. People were first defending creative saying that it was a corporative decision that would never allow them to destroy Zendikar, but how naive we all were. It didn't even get to that. They just decided that the planar eating monstrosities losing to the newbies in their first time fighting together was a better, more believable story.
Obviously I don't agree with 90% of what you said, but I want to address a couple of points.
1) Just because YOU can't feel a sense of danger and sense of threat without seeing a corpse doesn't mean other people can't. I'm a guy who gets on the edge of his seat watching Disney/Pixar movies. I get a sense of threat just by the characters being in clearly dangerous situations. Same thing goes for the concept of "Killing nameless NPCs from the army not a way to transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers" is also only true for you (and obviously some number of others) but not everyone. I felt terrible when I read that story of Ob killing hundreds of people a second after he knocked the alignment off even though none had names. It can be accomplished if done right and presented in the right way.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
And Lastly:
3) "Zendikar should be destroyed... to make the eldrazi become what they are Planar eating monstrosities." Um, they weren't? Like I'm really getting tired of the following incredibly inaccurate sentiment: The eldrazi did nothing, they weren't a threat. The Eldrazi destroyed most of the plane. 90% or more of the population is dead. The land is drained and twisted into something that the survivors barely recognize, if at all. How is that nothing? How is that ineffectual? Hitler killed something like 90% of the Jewish population in WW2. Was he not a threat because he didn't kill all of them? So what if they didn't destroy the plane entirely? It was well within their capability to do so. I understand that, I don't know why others can't. I'd rather see the heroes succeed here than wait until most everything I like is destroyed.
I get it. Some people like to see MASSIVE suffering in their stories. Others don't find that fun or enjoyable. Just because you need certain things to be in a story in order for it to be good or memorable to you does not mean that is the only way to accomplish it and certainly doesn't mean it is what everyone wants to see, even in a story with "planet eating monstrosities."
Just so were clear, because I've been accused of this before: I'm not saying these things can't be in stories period. Nor am I saying that stories that have those things can't be very good. I am just saying that they are not the only way to accomplish what people feel was not accomplished in this block. There are other ways and, in some cases, there are better ways.
EDIT: I want to all of the above that intent is important too. If the intent of a story is to make people sad over the horrible reality of war, then okay major character death is important and almost absolutely required. (I say almost cause I like to allow other possibilities.) But if the intent of your story is just to entertain with fantasy action, than character death is not needed. It can be used, possibly to great effect, but not a requirement. There are many ways to accomplish that goal.
Usually I don’t say much anymore, for a number of reasons, but I had a couple of things that I really wanted to say.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
Since no one is really saying it so emphatically as the detractors, I will. YAY Zendikar wins! I was so hoping for this. So much of the plane got drained and destroyed that this victory is far from perfect, but they still pull it off! The fact that they had to do so much to make it happen, I feel the cards don't do it justice. The cards make it seem like it was easy, and I'm sure it was far from easy. There was a lot of build up and a lot of effort put forth into saving the plane, to me it would have been really sad if they failed. This is more fun. And Chandra is my favorite so the fact that she is basically the offensive force that does the damage, I like.
That said, Emrakul is still around and it's quite possible that fully killing the eldrazi titans (If that's what actually happened, their "deaths" might still be temporary) could have multiverse wide negative consequences that will come up later. We'll see where the story goes from here.
About the cards: Bonds of morality is almost exclusively a flavor card. It explains how the eldrazi are able to be beaten. They are turned to normal flesh. I like how it draws a card when it comes out, but generally, it's just a sideboard card. I see it being played in, what modern? (wherever boggles is) as a sideboard card to deal with those decks.
I like Fall of the titans, but I like fireball effects. In Mirrodin/Innistrad, there were like 7 fireball effects legal at the same time. SO I made red green fireballs. 20 mana dorks, 20 fireballs, 20 land. Not a good deck, but it was funny.
Reality smasher is so good, only real downside is the required colorless in the mana cost. The Hedron Alignment makes me want to try that deck, but the above fireball deck should make that no surprise. Oath of Chandra, my favorite part is the flavor text. Some people don't like it, but I think it's fine. We've already established that these characters don't talk in old english, so it's perfectly in character. I could see her saying it that way.
And the Walker. It's a shame she costs 6, but she is pretty strong. She can easily stabilize the board against aggressive decks and left unchecked she will take over games with the draw and damage. I think she's great! I haven't been playing much lately but these spoilers are making me more interested.
Ok so I am adding this to comments from the creative team where they have clearly stated that they want more satisfying ends to stories and want to begin to tie up loose ends.
Ummm... okay so if those weren't the comments you mentioned from MaRo that said we were getting more resolution and sooner, then which ones were?
We don't necessarily have to wait until a block featuring Ravnica comes about to get the continuance of this story. Doug, Maro, and others have been quite clear that they don't intend to leave unresolved threads hanging for too long anymore. So I wouldn't be surprised if we somehow return to this plot in the near future in non-major story-arc episodes, such as the last two weeks of stories.
Did they say that? Well, I hope they follow through because if this is how they are going to tell stories, waiting the usual length between them until we return would be terrible. I do hope when they come back to her she succeeds though. I really don't like the whole spirit debt thing (personally, not from a prose standpoint) and I would love to see her get rid of it. I know some might argue it is a major aspect of the Orzhov, but I think few would argue that it is a good thing, in universe.
They did. Actually, if you look at Maro's blog he answers a question related to that today. And Doug and other members of the creative team have said that their intention going forward is to tie up (or continue) loose threads, and telling this story may be apart of that, and to give more satisfying endings to stories and arcs instead of constantly leaving everything hanging and unresolved all the time.
I don't follow his blog much but I went and took a peek because you mentioned it and only found this:
"The interesting thing is we’ve shifted from open-ended cliffhangers (“The Eldrazi have escaped - come back in some number of undetermined years to find out what happens”) to closed-cliffhangers (“See you in two weeks when we pick up the story of the Eldrazi”.) so I don’t understand why you’re not happier now."
which was in response to someone saying how they don't like how we keep getting the unresolved cliffhangers (I would guess because of today's story.) and this:
"But I think many players like the one of stories to allow us to occasionally peek in on other storylines"
which doesn't really make it sound like they will be back to Teysa any time soon. (I'd count 2-3 months as soon considering the weekly release schedule and the number of other plots they have going on, though I still don't like that length either.) Did I miss some other response of his?
We don't necessarily have to wait until a block featuring Ravnica comes about to get the continuance of this story. Doug, Maro, and others have been quite clear that they don't intend to leave unresolved threads hanging for too long anymore. So I wouldn't be surprised if we somehow return to this plot in the near future in non-major story-arc episodes, such as the last two weeks of stories.
Did they say that? Well, I hope they follow through because if this is how they are going to tell stories, waiting the usual length between them until we return would be terrible. I do hope when they come back to her she succeeds though. I really don't like the whole spirit debt thing (personally, not from a prose standpoint) and I would love to see her get rid of it. I know some might argue it is a major aspect of the Orzhov, but I think few would argue that it is a good thing, in universe.
I liked this story at first. I was glad to see Teysa take a starring role and see where her previously mentioned plot went. It was neat to get a glimpse into how things work on RAvnica with the Guildpact. I liked the story up until where it ended. Let me repeat that. I like the story up until WHERE it ended. The fact that her plan didn't work isn't a big deal. They are still alive so there is still a chance for them to succeed or take a different path. But the fact that it ended right there, without us having really any clue of where it goes next is just plain ridiculous. Encouraging conversation and speculation is one thing, but this is a cliffhanger that will literally take YEARS to resolve. (Okay I guess there is a chance that after shadows over Innistrad is a return to Ravnica again, but I'm not betting on it so that's minimum two years.)
For some people, a wait like that might heighten the anticipation, but me, it just bores me. It makes me want to move on to something more interesting.
But that's part of why I don't like personality traits being associated with mana colors. Almost invariably, black characters end up going that route. As much as I don't like black mana cards because of the ascetics of the color, even I think it would be kind of neat if a black mana character was a good guy or at least NOT a conniving murderous individual.
Black is also the color of survivalism (along with green) and self-determination. These traits aren't often emphasized but when they show up (like Drana's UR) it can show Black characters as an anti-hero or sometimes just a hero.
I remember a discussion about that a while ago. I'm not saying it's impossible for the deviation to exist, such as with Drana, but it's very common for the characters to fall in certain roles, solely because they associate personality traits with the color pie.
SO ABOUT THAT MEREN, color weirdness aside I think she makes for an interesting character and a cool look into what's going on in Jund. Part of me wishes she wasn't portrayed as a villain and her goal wasn't "Destroy Jund" so Black could have a character who was at least in a morally gray area instead of just being an active jerk. Also makes me wonder if she'd be prominent in the inevitable return to Alara.
Haha, Grootox. For some reason your avatar seems to me to be perfect with the start of your post. Like I could see him saying that with that look on his face.
Anyway, Meren is... no fun for me. Like I get why she went for revenge, it's not entirely unjustified. But she still goes too far. And then when she decides she wants to destroy all of Jund? If it had just been revenge, that would be one thing, but then she goes into the pointlessly evil side by deciding she wants to get rid of Jund. But that's part of why I don't like personality traits being associated with mana colors. Almost invariably, black characters end up going that route. As much as I don't like black mana cards because of the ascetics of the color, even I think it would be kind of neat if a black mana character was a good guy or at least NOT a conniving murderous individual. It would be interesting if she can be brought away from, for lack of a better term, the dark side. But I get the feeling that is not in the plan for her.
I think I can confidently say that MelancholyZen is included in the same group of people that think RPGs make kids murder other kids and videogames are the reason for most of the violence in the world.
I will not discuss this any longer, because it is getting ridiculous. People desire the deaths of fictional characters all the time, for multiple different reasons. Being boring to me is greatest reason ever, how I rejoiced when Lady Catelyn was killed in GOT. I couldn't stand reading one more chapter about her. And she wasn't even a bad person, how shocking. Yeah, truly, I must be a monster.
You said the picture was strong for you, fine, I get that, I put in spoiler mode. Now it is just getting out of hand.
Your confidence is misplaced. I do not think that. I play RPGs (Both table tops and story based video games), I even play games like Left 4 Dead. I'm not saying you are a monster, but you certainly lack any sort of real empathy if you think a character being boring is any reason for them to die. I do think that believing there is nothing wrong with fictional violence is part of the problem in our world. Not that the violence exists, but having no problem with it. There is a difference. In the real world, and in fiction, violence is sometimes necessary, unfortunately. Doesn't mean we should like it.
But regardless. I too am done with the conversation. I only replied because you attacked me with your ridiculous statement that I think violence in video games has anything to do with violence in the real world. That's just insulting. But I do have standards. (I know, shocking.) Fictional entertainment (even with violence) can be a powerful force for learning and influence in the world. It's why I write. To disregard its value is dangerous.
I couldn't agree with this more. A lot of stories seem to forget their protagonists are humans (or whatever race) that are fighting FOR something (a loved one, their town, a normal life, freedom, etc.) and forget to actually show that side of them. I always try to mix that sort of thing into my stories.
The "slice of life" stuff, even in decidely non-slice-of-life times, are important because it shows that there is more than just the non-stop action and danger. No one wants to be in danger all the time. Even thrill seekers like to relax every now and again. I'm really glad we got a bit of time with the characters when they were just living. (I really liked the Chandra heating the blankets bit, and Chandra and Nissa's interactions overall.) It's important to show that the characters have lives beyond the fighting.
Also I didn't like Ugin in here at all. But then I've come to not really like Ugin as a character. Not that he's poorly written, I just don't like him.
And as a side note, I'm glad a lot of people have positive things to say about this UR. I think it deserves it.
Missed this. Yea, I do agree that the writers didn't really deliver on any method either. Hence why my overall opinion of the block story is a meh. I said all of that because I have a lot of strong opinions about writing and stories and a lot of people on this board were talking like there was no other way, that death HAD to happen or there was no way for this story to be any good. It could have been good, it just wasn't.
I debate the use of the term plot armor in relation to this story. I think people are too quick to cry "Plot Armor" just because they think someone should have died. Speaking as some one who beat a few odds in still being able to breath today, just because it was likely someone would die in a situation doesn't mean they should die in the story. Surviving incredibly bad odds does not instantly mean it was plot armor. That being said, when I think about this story, even I find it hard to make an argument that plot armor was NOT involved here. I'm still not quite jumping on the plot armor side, but I'm not sure it wasn't plot armor either.
2) I think I wasn't clear. What is storytelling 101 is 'not establish your threat by having it killing random folk'. That just serves one purpose: to show that the character is evil and capable of killing, but that doesn't evoke an emotional response in the readers yet (or most readers, I suppose). The threat has to kill someone that matters in the world described, because that taps into an emotional connection. People here thought Kozilek was more menacing than Ulamog. One of the reasons why, I assure you, is because Kozilek killed Lorthos right out of the bat. Lorthos was not a faceless character, even if he didn't have any exposition before in the story, he was known to the readers. Ulamog didn't directly kill anyone important, therefore he didn't seem as threatening.
3) Thank Heliod that they did something at least! But they didn't do what they're suppose to: destroy planes. They didn't finish the job. They ravaged Zendikar, sure, the plane might take years to recover, sure, but that doesn't matter in the long run. We are not going to revisit Zendikar soon, we are not going to stay and see it 'recovering' from the destruction, we may see some residual damage the next time, but that is far from the same of having the plane destroyed altogether. That is what the eldrazi are about, and that is what they didn't do.
This story started the wrong way and it had some moments where it seemed that it could correct its course, but in the end it was not good. That is because the cycle of 'showing why we should care', 'establishing the threats', 'defeating the threats' was not well accomplished at all. Anyhow, I understand your opinion might differ in some aspects, but a lot of people here are not asking for deaths for the sake of deaths. There is a purpose behind it, and that is why I addressed your original post.[/quote]
1)I don't know if I'd call it impressive, but thanks.
2)Oh I won't lie, killing a well known character is certainly a quick way to draw a negative emotional response from your viewer. All I was saying is you don't need the threat to kill a well known character for him to be a perceived as a threat to the audience. It certainly accomplishes that very quickly, but there are other ways.
3)How many stories have we seen where something is going to destroy earth? Whether it be a monster, asteroid, magic, machine, whatever. The good guys win the day there, and the planet destroyer didn't do anything did it? But it was a planet destroyer. It just got stopped. My whole point was that just because they were something created as a plane destroyer does not mean they have to destroy every plane they come across.
Anyway, I see how what I'm saying might seem like I was saying people were just asking for death so that there was death. I do understand that there were reasons behind it. All I was arguing was that it's not NECESSARY, which some people seem to think. It could be used, it can have effect, but it's not required. This story could have been better than it was, even without using character death.
Obviously I don't agree with 90% of what you said, but I want to address a couple of points.
1) Just because YOU can't feel a sense of danger and sense of threat without seeing a corpse doesn't mean other people can't. I'm a guy who gets on the edge of his seat watching Disney/Pixar movies. I get a sense of threat just by the characters being in clearly dangerous situations. Same thing goes for the concept of "Killing nameless NPCs from the army not a way to transmit a feeling of loss to us, the readers" is also only true for you (and obviously some number of others) but not everyone. I felt terrible when I read that story of Ob killing hundreds of people a second after he knocked the alignment off even though none had names. It can be accomplished if done right and presented in the right way.
2)Related: "you have to kill important characters so the readers can understand what happens once the eldrazi ravage the land... it's story writing 101." I am a writer. I've taken courses. I must say that particular statement never came up. You have to impart on your readers a sense of danger, scale, etc., sure. But there are many ways to do it. Killing important characters is certainly one easy way, to establish that. It is neither the only, nor the ultimate guaranteed best way. There are other ways to impart on the viewer such understanding. It takes more effort and skill than a lot of writers have, but it is possible.
And Lastly:
3) "Zendikar should be destroyed... to make the eldrazi become what they are Planar eating monstrosities." Um, they weren't? Like I'm really getting tired of the following incredibly inaccurate sentiment: The eldrazi did nothing, they weren't a threat. The Eldrazi destroyed most of the plane. 90% or more of the population is dead. The land is drained and twisted into something that the survivors barely recognize, if at all. How is that nothing? How is that ineffectual? Hitler killed something like 90% of the Jewish population in WW2. Was he not a threat because he didn't kill all of them? So what if they didn't destroy the plane entirely? It was well within their capability to do so. I understand that, I don't know why others can't. I'd rather see the heroes succeed here than wait until most everything I like is destroyed.
I get it. Some people like to see MASSIVE suffering in their stories. Others don't find that fun or enjoyable. Just because you need certain things to be in a story in order for it to be good or memorable to you does not mean that is the only way to accomplish it and certainly doesn't mean it is what everyone wants to see, even in a story with "planet eating monstrosities."
Just so were clear, because I've been accused of this before: I'm not saying these things can't be in stories period. Nor am I saying that stories that have those things can't be very good. I am just saying that they are not the only way to accomplish what people feel was not accomplished in this block. There are other ways and, in some cases, there are better ways.
EDIT: I want to all of the above that intent is important too. If the intent of a story is to make people sad over the horrible reality of war, then okay major character death is important and almost absolutely required. (I say almost cause I like to allow other possibilities.) But if the intent of your story is just to entertain with fantasy action, than character death is not needed. It can be used, possibly to great effect, but not a requirement. There are many ways to accomplish that goal.
First of all, about the idea that there’s a problem with them winning their first conflict and the idea of The Hero’s Journey being such a basic story telling tenet, the Hero’s Journey is not the ONLY way to tell a good adventure story. It is a very good way to tell one, certainly, but it is not the only means available to a writer. Also, there are many ways to interpret and use the Hero's Journey. I don’t generally care for MaRo’s opinion on things, but the Gatewatch winning here is not poor storytelling, especially when an entire world is on the line.
Secondly, they didn’t win their first fight. They won their first war, sure, but they lost a lot of their early battles. Gideon’s first attempt to lead his army ended with a not insignificant portion of the army being killed and them having to retreat. Their attempt to re-trap Ulamog was thwarted and more people died. The Planeswalkers fighting together lost to Ob and were captured. It wasn’t until everything was on the line that they won. Their mistakes cost them and they still have growth ahead of them. Sure, it was their first fight after they took the Oath, but they were fighting separately and together long before that.
And what is with this call to force them to all have the emotional trauma of losing AN ENTIRE WORLD or for named characters to have died? Slamming your characters with emotional trauma does not make them automatically interesting. It makes them cliché. Just adding emotional trauma doesn’t do anything useful just because you put it there. It has to be used in the right way and at the right time. Seriously, why do people seem to think that immense personal loss is the only way to have a character grow. It certainly can trigger growth, and it can be great to see a character move past their loss to grow and succeed, but it’s not the only reason a character grows, it’s not the only thing that can motivate a character to great deeds. (For the record, I'm not saying death, loss, and emotional trauma can't make for a very good story. It certainly can and I enjoy such stories when done right. But it should be used with care, and not just haphazardly thrown in for half hearted reasons like "it's war so people die." There's no emotion or feeling in that notion.)
Also, just because they succeeded here doesn’t mean they are all powerful or invincible. They had the previous work of millennia old planeswalkers and the power of an entire plane on their side for this one. For future plots, they won’t have so many crutches. On the other hand, why are people calling them things like “boy scouts?” Not a one of these walkers are new to magic, new to fighting (well maybe Jace a little bit), new to danger, new to planeswalking. They all have many adventures, fights, and conflicts under their belts. They are all experienced mages. They may not be as experienced as Ugin or Sorin, but they didn’t just ignite their spark one day and then stop the eldrazi the next. The worst member of the group was Kiora in that respect, and even she has been planeswalking for years.
Speaking of Kiora, I like this turn of events. I mean, I think it’s dumb that she fought so hard against the others. I get her reason, but it still stinks of a forced “we have to have a voice of descent/internal team struggle” kind of thing. But, I’ve been saying for a while it would be neat for her to leave the plane and go on a jounrey of discovery on the back of a crushing realization: that she had so much power and not only was she nearly useless, but she caused more trouble than she helped. That is a much more interesting reason as a catalyst for growth than the very cliché “her sister died”. I think Kiora still has potential to be a really well written character, but she's on the line. Could go either way.
All of that having been said, I agree that the story has many flaws. The overall quality of the story, on a scale of “AUUUGH” to “WOOHOO” this story rates a meh. Even keeping the major plot points the same (Eldrazi show up again, gather the heroes, try to trap Ula, fail, ultra plan to save the plane, success), the story could have been better or more interesting (even without major character death, but I know people will disagree with that), but it also could have been a lot worse. I won’t say “I’ll take it” because I don’t like settling, but I also won’t demonize it like it’s worse than it is.
That said, Emrakul is still around and it's quite possible that fully killing the eldrazi titans (If that's what actually happened, their "deaths" might still be temporary) could have multiverse wide negative consequences that will come up later. We'll see where the story goes from here.
About the cards: Bonds of morality is almost exclusively a flavor card. It explains how the eldrazi are able to be beaten. They are turned to normal flesh. I like how it draws a card when it comes out, but generally, it's just a sideboard card. I see it being played in, what modern? (wherever boggles is) as a sideboard card to deal with those decks.
I like Fall of the titans, but I like fireball effects. In Mirrodin/Innistrad, there were like 7 fireball effects legal at the same time. SO I made red green fireballs. 20 mana dorks, 20 fireballs, 20 land. Not a good deck, but it was funny.
Reality smasher is so good, only real downside is the required colorless in the mana cost. The Hedron Alignment makes me want to try that deck, but the above fireball deck should make that no surprise. Oath of Chandra, my favorite part is the flavor text. Some people don't like it, but I think it's fine. We've already established that these characters don't talk in old english, so it's perfectly in character. I could see her saying it that way.
And the Walker. It's a shame she costs 6, but she is pretty strong. She can easily stabilize the board against aggressive decks and left unchecked she will take over games with the draw and damage. I think she's great! I haven't been playing much lately but these spoilers are making me more interested.
Ooh! Let me try!
"I thought this pillar was straight? -Random kor, last sane words." (Obvious the random kor would probably be replaced with a name.)
Or more serious, how about:
"This prophet doesn't need to speak to twist your mind."
Ah sorry. Was misunderstanding you. Been a day.
Ummm... okay so if those weren't the comments you mentioned from MaRo that said we were getting more resolution and sooner, then which ones were?
I don't follow his blog much but I went and took a peek because you mentioned it and only found this:
"The interesting thing is we’ve shifted from open-ended cliffhangers (“The Eldrazi have escaped - come back in some number of undetermined years to find out what happens”) to closed-cliffhangers (“See you in two weeks when we pick up the story of the Eldrazi”.) so I don’t understand why you’re not happier now."
which was in response to someone saying how they don't like how we keep getting the unresolved cliffhangers (I would guess because of today's story.) and this:
"But I think many players like the one of stories to allow us to occasionally peek in on other storylines"
which doesn't really make it sound like they will be back to Teysa any time soon. (I'd count 2-3 months as soon considering the weekly release schedule and the number of other plots they have going on, though I still don't like that length either.) Did I miss some other response of his?
Did they say that? Well, I hope they follow through because if this is how they are going to tell stories, waiting the usual length between them until we return would be terrible. I do hope when they come back to her she succeeds though. I really don't like the whole spirit debt thing (personally, not from a prose standpoint) and I would love to see her get rid of it. I know some might argue it is a major aspect of the Orzhov, but I think few would argue that it is a good thing, in universe.
I liked this story at first. I was glad to see Teysa take a starring role and see where her previously mentioned plot went. It was neat to get a glimpse into how things work on RAvnica with the Guildpact. I liked the story up until where it ended. Let me repeat that. I like the story up until WHERE it ended. The fact that her plan didn't work isn't a big deal. They are still alive so there is still a chance for them to succeed or take a different path. But the fact that it ended right there, without us having really any clue of where it goes next is just plain ridiculous. Encouraging conversation and speculation is one thing, but this is a cliffhanger that will literally take YEARS to resolve. (Okay I guess there is a chance that after shadows over Innistrad is a return to Ravnica again, but I'm not betting on it so that's minimum two years.)
For some people, a wait like that might heighten the anticipation, but me, it just bores me. It makes me want to move on to something more interesting.
I remember a discussion about that a while ago. I'm not saying it's impossible for the deviation to exist, such as with Drana, but it's very common for the characters to fall in certain roles, solely because they associate personality traits with the color pie.
Haha, Grootox. For some reason your avatar seems to me to be perfect with the start of your post. Like I could see him saying that with that look on his face.
Anyway, Meren is... no fun for me. Like I get why she went for revenge, it's not entirely unjustified. But she still goes too far. And then when she decides she wants to destroy all of Jund? If it had just been revenge, that would be one thing, but then she goes into the pointlessly evil side by deciding she wants to get rid of Jund. But that's part of why I don't like personality traits being associated with mana colors. Almost invariably, black characters end up going that route. As much as I don't like black mana cards because of the ascetics of the color, even I think it would be kind of neat if a black mana character was a good guy or at least NOT a conniving murderous individual. It would be interesting if she can be brought away from, for lack of a better term, the dark side. But I get the feeling that is not in the plan for her.
Do we know who the story tomorrow is about?
Your confidence is misplaced. I do not think that. I play RPGs (Both table tops and story based video games), I even play games like Left 4 Dead. I'm not saying you are a monster, but you certainly lack any sort of real empathy if you think a character being boring is any reason for them to die. I do think that believing there is nothing wrong with fictional violence is part of the problem in our world. Not that the violence exists, but having no problem with it. There is a difference. In the real world, and in fiction, violence is sometimes necessary, unfortunately. Doesn't mean we should like it.
But regardless. I too am done with the conversation. I only replied because you attacked me with your ridiculous statement that I think violence in video games has anything to do with violence in the real world. That's just insulting. But I do have standards. (I know, shocking.) Fictional entertainment (even with violence) can be a powerful force for learning and influence in the world. It's why I write. To disregard its value is dangerous.