I tested this list and 22 lands are a lot for me. Another curious thing is no geist. I think that 2x Helix and 2x Autumn are better right now?.
Maybe -1x land, +1x path mainboard could be helpful. I don´t think that 3x black leyline could be better than surgical/ravenous trap in a 2 black-lands deck. Anyway, this list is pretty standard and solid.
KoA main is probably a concession to Burn, which is quite popular right now and a bad matchup for these decks. With 4 KoA, 2 Blessed Alliance, and 1 Shalai in the 75 it must become manageable. Compared to Geist, KoA is easier to cast as well.
I don't understand 3 Leyline in the SB either. Dredge shouldn't be a bad matchup, and certainly isn't one where you want to actively mulligan to a Leyline. Trap and/or Surgical seem like better choices.
That’s about as no bulls***, straightforward as they come. List looks tight. Congrats on the strong finish. Did the Sword ever come into play and prove useful?
The Sword is a holdover from the original PT FRF list, but I still find it useful against UWx Control plus basically any combo or big mana deck. That night it only showed up against Living End, and reduced my opponent's life total to zero in two hits.
Round 1: Humans (W 2-1)
Round 2: Living End (W 2-1)
Round 3: 0-2 Burn (L 0-2)
Round 4: UW Midrange/Control (W 2-0)
Living End should be an awful matchup but I always seem to have turn 2 RIP against them. Likewise, Burn should be a decent matchup, but only if you draw the relevant cards. Gearhulk is probably too cute, but it was sick against Humans. The deck seems to be fine overall, so I'll keep playing it.
Brought out good ol' Siege Rhino & friends for FNM and went 3-1-1.
Round 1: Grixis Shadow, L (1-2)
Round 2: Wb Eldrazi Taxes, W (2-0)
Round 3: Mono-Red Phoenix, W (2-1)
Round 4: Living End, W (2-1)
Round 5: Merfolk, ID but we played and I won 2-1
See list in attachments. I wasn't too happy with Thoughtseize, and will probably replace them with either Assassin's Trophy or Collective Brutality.
Zoo in 12th place at the SCG Modern Open this weekend. Its truly big Zoo in the old Kibler style. Lots of 4/5 mana spells in the 75 and 0 BBE! I'm curious what matchups he faced...
This deck likely lacks the critical mass of interactions required to make the inclusion of Scryb Ranger worthwhile. If you want to try Scryb Ranger I'd suggest so in place of Azusa.
Linvala doesn't do a lot outside of the Elves/Company Combo and Affinity matchups - so I wouldn't consider her necessary.
While overshadowed by Caw-Blade, RUG Control was a powerful and successful deck in its era. The card selection provided by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain was invaluable to this control/ramp strategy, ensuring you could find setup (Lotus Cobra, lands), interaction (Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak), and payoffs (Inferno Titan, Precursor Golem) when you needed them. Jace was also a source of card advantage and a win condition by himself. The absence of Jace and Preordain made any attempts at reproducing this strategy in Modern both inconsistent and underpowered.
With Jace now unbanned, it might be possible to bring this deck into Modern. Lets start by looking at a historic decklist from the infamous GP Dallas, where the Top 8 decks contained 32/32 Jace and 32/32 Preordain split between 4 Caw-Blade and 4 RUG decks:
Now we can compare the spells in the 1st cut against the rest of the Modern cardpool, without significantly changing the deck's construction:
Creatures
Lotus Cobra is unique and necessary in function and cannot be replaced
Inferno Titan is likely the best 6 mana payoff available
Precursor Golem can likely be replaced with a different 5 mana payoff
Avenger of Zendikar is likely too slow and expensive for Modern, where Inferno Titan is a good enough top-end
Oracle of Mul Daya is likely too slow for Modern and less necessary without Avenger of Zendikar in the deck
Noncreature Spells
Serum Visions is the best cantrip available
Lightning Bolt is still the most efficient and versatile burn spell available
Mana Leak is still the most efficient and versatile counterspell available
Explore is unique and necessary in function and cannot be replaced
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is unique and necessary in function and cannot be replaced
The initial goal of this exercise is to produce a maindeck that simply makes some substitutions and isn't significantly different from the original - but its possible that a total re-construction of this strategy is necessary to make it competitive in Modern.
If anyone has attempted something similar or has ideas, please share!
You could cut the Azcantas and take a more creature-centric approach by adding Restoration Angel/Vendilion Clique, which makes sense since you're playing Hierarchs/Dromoka's Command/no Verdicts and generally are playing on the opponents turn. If going down this route, Baneslayer Angel should probably go in the sideboard.
constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
The uptick of Jeskai is what's making me move back up to 4 copies of Voice, it's interesting how we came to different conclusions. If you find him early against them then it becomes so much easier to beat them. Pre-Jace, Jeskai control was a cake walk, now that they have Secure the Wastes and PW's, the macthup has become harder, but that's where 3x Gaddock Teeg really shines out of the board. That and Dromoka's Commands/Avacyn. I think that matchup is all about the 2 drops and forcing them to rely on Path instead of Bolt, which is what Big Zoo does well.
Regarding Dromoka's Command VS UWx: I guess vs UWr its mostly used to counter burn-based removal? Being able to kill Search or Detention Sphere is nice too. But if you don't have creatures in play it can become a dead card. Is there anything else I'm missing about this card in the matchup?
Voice is so unbelievably bad against Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (stock runs 2x Teferi), I don't know if you've noticed.
My Jeskai opponents ignore voice until they can start slamming 4 and 5 drops -- which Voice is atrocious against. Voice is very much a punisher effect, really really good against bad players, and pretty medium against players who recognize that he's just a 2/2.
Repeatable Ousts requires hastey threats or sticky ones. Monstrous Fleecemane Lion isn't actually that hard, since you just leave mana up once you untap with 5 mana (easy-peasy when they play path). Obviously, if you stick it turn 2 against Jeskai they'll bolt it but we've got enough redundancy at 2 that I don't worry too much about that.
I agree that Voice can be low impact against UWx Control, but I don't think Fleecemane Lion is a significant improvement. While its not hard to reach 5 mana in the matchup, constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
Zulander is a huge fan of Teeg and I am too, but he just dies to the entire UWr deck. I think Molten Rain and Planeswalkers are the way to go in the matchup, mostly because they are way harder to interact with than creatures.
Congratulations on your result, your list looks solid!
Do you care to elaborate on your sideboard and why you took those 15 cards with you? Would love to hear about cards like Elspeth and Fiery Justice.
Thanks! To break down the sideboard by card:
Molten Rain: Great vs Tron, Valakut, and UWx Control. When you're playing against something random and want to cut a bunch of cards, you can never go wrong with Stone Rain + Shock. Its also a Sorcery for Tarmogoyf and a SICK Cascade hit. Damping Sphere could replace it but I'm reluctant to let it go because its superior against Valakut.
Gaddock Teeg: Teeg is fragile but has text against a variety of strategies including Tron, Valakut, Storm, UW/UR Control, Company/Chord decks, AdNaus...
Ancient Grudge: Affinity, Lantern, Krark-Clan.
Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge and Storm.
Kitchen Finks: Burn, Jund, UW/UR Control.
Fiery Justice: Can go wide AND tall against aggro decks like Humans/Hollow One/Affinity. Also decent against mana dork decks, Death's Shadow, and Eldrazi Tron. I actually wanted to play two copies, but only own one (I've put my avatar to shame ).
Dromoka's Command: Ran this instead of the 2nd Fiery Justice, thought it would also be decent against less interactive aggro decks and is good vs Burn and random.decs too due to its versatility (brought in in against Skred and W Prison for example).
Ethersworn Canonist: Wanted a 3rd hatebear, looked at Thalia, Eidolon of Rhetoric, and Aven Mindcensor and kind of chose at random.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Added this card almost solely for Jund, which can be popular at this store. There wasn't much Jund this time but I brought her in VS UR Breach and Skred. I'll note that I played 2 Domri maindeck in expectation of Jund as well.
I went 4-1, matchups were:
Burn (2-0)
Jund (2-0)
Affinity (2-0)
Infect (0-2)
UW Control (2-1)
Some changes to the deck I'd consider:
-1 Razorverge Thicket, +1 Horizon Canopy - Some extra flood insurance
-1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope - Liliana is a very strong card, but costing BB is a slight concern
-2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, +2 Damping Sphere - I don't own this card yet but maybe it gives us a chance vs Tron
Rounds were:
Grixis Death's Shadow L (0-2)
Blood Moon Stompy W (2-0)
UW Quest for the Holy Relic W (2-0)
4C Pyro Loam W (2-0)
I also played some pre and post SB practice games vs a friend on UWr Control. It felt like a tolerable matchup even with Jace in the picture.
Sideboard was a put together at the last minute and needs tuning - I really wanted to Cascade into Molten Rain but would like to make room for a 2nd Fiery Justice.
Curious what people think about playing basic Mountain, especially with more Red spells now?
KoA main is probably a concession to Burn, which is quite popular right now and a bad matchup for these decks. With 4 KoA, 2 Blessed Alliance, and 1 Shalai in the 75 it must become manageable. Compared to Geist, KoA is easier to cast as well.
I don't understand 3 Leyline in the SB either. Dredge shouldn't be a bad matchup, and certainly isn't one where you want to actively mulligan to a Leyline. Trap and/or Surgical seem like better choices.
The Sword is a holdover from the original PT FRF list, but I still find it useful against UWx Control plus basically any combo or big mana deck. That night it only showed up against Living End, and reduced my opponent's life total to zero in two hits.
I ran this back the following FNM (18 January) with a few changes-
Maindeck: -2 Thoughtseize / +1 Collective Brutality, +1 Dromoka's Command
Sideboard: -1 Stony Silence, -1 Damping Sphere / +1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk, +1 Maelstrom Pulse
Round 1: Humans (W 2-1)
Round 2: Living End (W 2-1)
Round 3: 0-2 Burn (L 0-2)
Round 4: UW Midrange/Control (W 2-0)
Living End should be an awful matchup but I always seem to have turn 2 RIP against them. Likewise, Burn should be a decent matchup, but only if you draw the relevant cards. Gearhulk is probably too cute, but it was sick against Humans. The deck seems to be fine overall, so I'll keep playing it.
Round 1: Grixis Shadow, L (1-2)
Round 2: Wb Eldrazi Taxes, W (2-0)
Round 3: Mono-Red Phoenix, W (2-1)
Round 4: Living End, W (2-1)
Round 5: Merfolk, ID but we played and I won 2-1
See list in attachments. I wasn't too happy with Thoughtseize, and will probably replace them with either Assassin's Trophy or Collective Brutality.
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Lotus Cobra
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Lyra Dawnbringer
Noncreature Spells (11)
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Domri Rade
1x Ajani Vengeant
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
1x Temple Garden
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Blood Moon
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Knight of Autumn
2x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sword of War and Peace
Round 1: BW Tokens W(2-1)
Round 2: UW Midrange W(2-1)
Round 3: UWr Control W(2-1)
Round 4: Bant Spirits W(2-1)
Round 5: ID
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Noncreature Spells (15)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Bant Charm
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Damping Sphere
2 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Negate
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Zoo in 12th place at the SCG Modern Open this weekend. Its truly big Zoo in the old Kibler style. Lots of 4/5 mana spells in the 75 and 0 BBE! I'm curious what matchups he faced...
Linvala doesn't do a lot outside of the Elves/Company Combo and Affinity matchups - so I wouldn't consider her necessary.
While overshadowed by Caw-Blade, RUG Control was a powerful and successful deck in its era. The card selection provided by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Preordain was invaluable to this control/ramp strategy, ensuring you could find setup (Lotus Cobra, lands), interaction (Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak), and payoffs (Inferno Titan, Precursor Golem) when you needed them. Jace was also a source of card advantage and a win condition by himself. The absence of Jace and Preordain made any attempts at reproducing this strategy in Modern both inconsistent and underpowered.
With Jace now unbanned, it might be possible to bring this deck into Modern. Lets start by looking at a historic decklist from the infamous GP Dallas, where the Top 8 decks contained 32/32 Jace and 32/32 Preordain split between 4 Caw-Blade and 4 RUG decks:
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Precursor Golem
4 Inferno Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
Noncreature Spells (20)
4 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Explore
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
2 Halimar Depths
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Raging Ravine
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Acidic Slime
1 Burst Lightning
1 Deprive
3 Flashfreeze
3 Obstinate Baloth
3 Pyroclasm
2 Tumble Magnet
Next, lets look at what changes we can immediately make to the maindeck based on card legality in Modern:
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Precursor Golem
4 Inferno Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
Noncreature Spells (20)
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Explore
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Halimar Depths
4 Raging Ravine
Now we can compare the spells in the 1st cut against the rest of the Modern cardpool, without significantly changing the deck's construction:
Creatures
Noncreature Spells
The initial goal of this exercise is to produce a maindeck that simply makes some substitutions and isn't significantly different from the original - but its possible that a total re-construction of this strategy is necessary to make it competitive in Modern.
If anyone has attempted something similar or has ideas, please share!
Whoops. The first part of my statement still stands though.
Regarding Dromoka's Command VS UWx: I guess vs UWr its mostly used to counter burn-based removal? Being able to kill Search or Detention Sphere is nice too. But if you don't have creatures in play it can become a dead card. Is there anything else I'm missing about this card in the matchup?
I agree that Voice can be low impact against UWx Control, but I don't think Fleecemane Lion is a significant improvement. While its not hard to reach 5 mana in the matchup, constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
Zulander is a huge fan of Teeg and I am too, but he just dies to the entire UWr deck. I think Molten Rain and Planeswalkers are the way to go in the matchup, mostly because they are way harder to interact with than creatures.
Thanks! To break down the sideboard by card:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Loxodon Smiter
3x Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalker (2)
2x Domri Rade
Instant/Sorcery (10)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
2x Lightning Helix
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Arid Mesa
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Molten Rain
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Fiery Justice
1x Dromoka's Command
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Round 1: Wb Enchantment Prison (2-0)
Round 2: Humans (2-1)
Round 3: Gifts Storm (2-0)
Round 4: UR Breach (2-1, drew but played for fun)
Round 5: Drew
QF: Skred (2-0)
Top4 Split
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Qasali Pridemage
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Siege Rhino
3x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Lingering Souls
Instant & Sorcery (6)
4x Path to Exile
2x Thoughtseize
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Razorverge Thicket
3x Gavony Township
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sword of War and Peace
I went 4-1, matchups were:
Burn (2-0)
Jund (2-0)
Affinity (2-0)
Infect (0-2)
UW Control (2-1)
Some changes to the deck I'd consider:
-1 Razorverge Thicket, +1 Horizon Canopy - Some extra flood insurance
-1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope - Liliana is a very strong card, but costing BB is a slight concern
-2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, +2 Damping Sphere - I don't own this card yet but maybe it gives us a chance vs Tron
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Noncreature Spells (12)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Domri Rade
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stirring Wildwood
4 Molten Rain
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Fiery Justice
Rounds were:
Grixis Death's Shadow L (0-2)
Blood Moon Stompy W (2-0)
UW Quest for the Holy Relic W (2-0)
4C Pyro Loam W (2-0)
I also played some pre and post SB practice games vs a friend on UWr Control. It felt like a tolerable matchup even with Jace in the picture.
Sideboard was a put together at the last minute and needs tuning - I really wanted to Cascade into Molten Rain but would like to make room for a 2nd Fiery Justice.
Curious what people think about playing basic Mountain, especially with more Red spells now?