If it looks like the meta at GP NJ will be as fair as I suspect
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I wonder about this. I feel Burn and decks like Oops and Manaless will be out in force due to the cheap buy-in, so it will be imperative to have plans for them. It might be pointless to metagame too much with the expected size of the event though.
Scryb Ranger is insane and was a part of the "stock list" not too long ago. I would say that she is a must for a dark depths maverick list. Flash/Green Sun her in when you have a Knight of the Reliquary (w/o summoning sickness) and you automatically have you dark depths combo online without having either Thespian Stage or Dark Depths.
I feel like there must be something better than Loxodon Smitter. A 4/4 vanilla for 3 isn't that great in legacy. Sigarda or Thrun seem better if you want a beater. Even Goyf just seems better.
I agree that Scryb becomes a lot better with DD combo and that they really come together.
Sigarda + Cradle is another legitimate option I think. Other 3 drops I've tested in the past include Mirran Crusader and Great Sable Stag (!!) but they have their own issues too.
@s3raphix - Why Loxodon Smitter? Is Jund a huge deck in your Meta? I would Jam in a third Stoneforge Mystic and a Batterskull over the two Smitters. That package can easily give you free wins. Also, War and Peace? I don't know how good that sword is over Feast and Famine and Light and Shadow. I don't even think a second sword altogether is necessary. You have options in Scryb Ranger, 3rd Qasali Pridemage, 2nd Sylvan Library, O-Ring, Council's Judgement. Those seem better.
I like Smiter because he's a different kind of threat than Stoneforge. He's more resilient, and isn't subject to artifact hate people board in against Stoneforge that reduces her efficacy.
In my experience trying out almost every Stoneforge configuration in GWx I've been most satisfied with the "half" package of 2 Mystics, Jitte and Fire & Ice. Batterskull is obviously super powerful, but I think its best in a UWx shell with all 4 Stoneforges and the Blue Good Stuff.
War and Peace is in a flexy slot right now. I know probably isn't as good as other options, but I felt like trying it out. For what its worth, the one time I resolved it (against deathblade), it turned an unfavorable race vs two TNN into a win. I'm leaning on making that either the 3rd Pridemage or a 24th land to accommodate Dark Depths combo right now. I love Scryb Ranger but I worry that she is too cute.
I was 1-2 in the three round tourney (Imperial Painter: loss, Deathblade: win, Miracles: loss), and while there is definitely room for adjustments, the list felt good overall.
I chickened out at the last second over playing 4 colors and decided to just go Naya.
It took a lot for me to drop the 4 maindeck Thalias that have been ironclad for months, but the non-bo with Punishing Fire was staring me in the face. And in fact, I don't regret it at all and would do it again. The decision to play 4 Birds was easier now that I remained with 8 X/1s main instead of 12 with Thalia (plus being able to produce red mana was awesome and even flying was relevant). Also, playing more threats, Green Sun-ing for normal amounts, and being able to cast a creature spell and hold up plow the same turn all felt GOOD.
Losing Thoughtseize definitely hurts against combo, but I think the Red splash offers different strengths that still have value.
I'll continue testing a similar list with some tweaks for the near future, if not at a GPT this weekend then at my local next Monday...
Junk has felt a bit underpowered to me lately so I thought I'd try something different, though I'm not even sure Punishing Fire is a good way to fight the Cruisers.
I usually don't play such greedy decks so the mana might be a bit wonky, I just eyeballed it. I went 4 color because I wanted a mana dork that could produce red to maximize Punishing Fire efficiency but Birds of Paradise doesn't seem great. SFM always underwhelms me so I'm trying Smiter instead...sometimes you just want to resolve a big dumb guy. Sideboard is kind of random right now but I like the idea of being able to play both Thoughtseize, blasts, and sweepers (maybe Pyroclasm over Deluge?).
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I agree with all of this. And thinking about facing Miracles at the upcoming SCG, this paints the picture quite clearly. I've crushed miracles last year off the backs of Teeg/Thalia/Mom. I die a miserable death when I cannot assemble that package. The bigger issue has been Miracles' ability to just recycle attrition spells. Snapcaster Mage is the death of me. There are games I hold my own against 3 STP and 2 Terminus only to have snapcaster make STP #4/#5, paving the way for Terminus again or Entreat to seal the deal for them. I haven't been able to shake those bad vibes. From the black splash, I think some amount of Abrupt Decays are mandatory. Extra (#3, #4) QPM also make a huge difference. I wouldn't bring in surgical unless I were desperate. Actually any 1-drop spell is weak in the Miracles matchup. Once CB/Top is established, your 1cc spells just die.
The best card to break parity with Miracles has to be SFM. Just run her out with sword of X/Y and race. The pro-white of Light/Shadow + recursion effect gives me favorable odds even without Teeg on board. I used to think Choke did the job but that right now it's not doing enough. Some people mention lingering souls but miracles often casts RIP games 2 and 3, negating the spell entirely. I'd rather pack some 'Walkers or Loxodon Smiters than Souls in Maverick tbh.
*I'm also of the opinion that every Maverick list needs 2 Sylvan Library effects atm. They work wonders against blue.
How aggressively do you mulligan against miracles? Between soft disruption like Thalia or hard disruption like QPM on Top/CB which do you think is more valuable?
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Gerry and MJ don't like Obstinate Baloth (no reasons were given, but MJ think's it's garbage, he likes Huntmaster of the Fells).
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This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I concluded Baloth was better as a sideboard card because of its hateful applications vs Liliana decks, and also functioning better as a win condition due to the bigger body.
Huntmaster has the advantage of being two bodies which is better for chump blocking and can't be dealt with by spot removal. However, it can't be relied on to win a game unless it flips, which may or may not happen. A surprising number of decks aren't well equipped to deal with a CMC4 creature with 4 toughness. I see it as a mostly defensive card to bridge the mid-game to the end game. I think if I were to play it I would do so maindeck, and sideboard them out for Baloths in the appropriate matchups. The problem with maindeck creatures (besides snap and steve) in Scapeshift is turning on opposing spot removal, but Huntmaster mostly gets around this by having two bodies.
What? Am I terrible at this deck or something? I've struggled playing against Jund/Junk. Liliana, discard, and Fulnimator Mage are still huge problems even if Tec Edge is absent. I haven't found many terribly effective sideboard cards against them either (Really just Baloths, Wurmcoil is good against them too but only if you get a chance to cast it).
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In retrospect, think the deck is great where it is, except it's still very vulnerable to baron and control decks. Really want to squeeze in boros charms (replace brave, probably), but with the current manabase, I'm not sure it's worth it. 4 confluence and 2-3 temples might do the trick, but could slow me down a lot.
I think there's something to be said for a red splash. Mizzium Mortars is a real answer to Dragons and Blood Baron, and I even think Iroas could be a valuable addition, as sometimes Brave the Elements isn't enough in the blocking matchups, which can be very difficult otherwise. With Battlefield Forge legal soon, I might try this out.
Speaking of cards that will be legal soon in M15, Spirit Bonds stood out as a possible option as it provides devotion and triggers Ephara. I think even Soul of Theros could be on the table alongside a few copies of Nykthos, not sure if its really better than Elspeth though.
The problem with splashing red is that you're really only gaining a few slow answers to those specific threats. You're gaining Mizzium Mortars, Boros Charm, Chained to the Rocks, and maybe Iroas. Of those, Stormbreath and Blood Baron are only hit by Mizzium Mortars. I think that Boros Charm is the only real reason to splash red as celestial flare already helps with those creatures.
And if you're considering a third color then why is red better than black? Black gains you Xathrid Necromancer, Sin Collector, Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, Obzedat, Thoughtseize, Whip of Erebos, Far // Away (for Blood Baron), and Blood Baron himself. I can tell you from experience that although Boros Charm is a better immediate answer to a board wipe, the black splash makes the control matchup much easier (you have no idea how many control players will just scoop the minute Obzedat resolves).
Just some food for thought.
All valid points. There is a reason an Esper version has put up actual results and a WUR version hasn't. While I still believe Red has some dimensions that Black doesn't, Esper is almost certainly the way to go in tournaments at a higher level than FNM. Unfortunately, at that point I think you are best served by Monoblack or UW control if you are truly playing to win instead of a pet deck like this that is weak to a number of prevalent metagame elements right now. I took straight UW to an SCG Open about a month ago and got hammered.
So I tried a green splash, in the same vein of using boros charm, i tried using Selesnaya charm to fight through walls and trees and deal with polukranos and desecration demon. This doesn't solve the problem with the pro-white creatures, but the sideboard of verdict and celestial flare seems to get me there.
I tried using 3 mana confluence and 3 temple of enlightenment to try to cast 2 selesnaya charm and 2 ajani, mentor of heroes. Ajani was a lot better in theory then practice as he usually isn't high impact enough, we really need to be playing dictates or archangels at that point. It's really hard for him to bring you back into the game, but he searches for devotion, elspeth, and dumps tons of power on the board and works well with first strike creatures.
I'm not sure that caller of the pride isn't the better option though, because it's earlier devotion and can fly into planeswalkers and such. The three drop slot is horrible in this deck, and i can't see cutting brimaz, reckoner, spear.
The red splash for boros charm would be really nice, and iroas would also help combat a lot. Probably better ideas then the green.
With black splashed, sin collector seems like a really big step in beating peoples removal suites. along with baron could be amazing against black.
I'm not convinced we need to be splashing for a third color...the off color temples are almost free in this 25 land build, and the mana confluence is often better than guildgate for me so maybe far//away, something were already on color for? Turn//burn?
These seem like some of the best options.
Anyway, i'll be playing w/u/x ephara beats tonight so i'll put up a report if i get any good match-up info. Im expecting a lot of red decks and mono u, so this should be a good night for ephara.
I've goldfished a number of Bant lists online, as I tend to force Bant at every possible opportunity. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much that straight UW can't do, while having less consistent mana. I have most of the cards for it so I could see myself bringing it to FNM at some point before rotation. Cards I was trying out included Fleecemane Lion, Voice of Resurgence, and Wayfaring Temple(!!). The latter two have very cute synergies with Ephara. I've seen lists with Advent of the Wurm (Ryan Hipp top 16'd an Open early in the BNG season with such a list if I recall correctly) which looks a little awkward but is undoubtedly powerful.
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In retrospect, think the deck is great where it is, except it's still very vulnerable to baron and control decks. Really want to squeeze in boros charms (replace brave, probably), but with the current manabase, I'm not sure it's worth it. 4 confluence and 2-3 temples might do the trick, but could slow me down a lot.
I think there's something to be said for a red splash. Mizzium Mortars is a real answer to Dragons and Blood Baron, and I even think Iroas could be a valuable addition, as sometimes Brave the Elements isn't enough in the blocking matchups, which can be very difficult otherwise. With Battlefield Forge legal soon, I might try this out.
Speaking of cards that will be legal soon in M15, Spirit Bonds stood out as a possible option as it provides devotion and triggers Ephara. I think even Soul of Theros could be on the table alongside a few copies of Nykthos, not sure if its really better than Elspeth though.
I can see exactly where you're coming from. But sadly, Fireball isn't an instant. I like being able to dump mana with Kessig into an unblocked token for the win.
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Comet Storm is an instant speed fireball effect, maybe that's worth a try.
Was there an explanation for the process behind opting for Courser/Oracle main instead of the 4x Prime Time Omen Valakut has played for years? That strikes me as the most drastic difference between this list and historical ones (I think Oracle has been seen before, but as 1-of?).
Angelic Destiny doesn't cut it. As an earlier poster mentioned, Rancor has the same aura problem but is still effective and only costs G. I'd sooner play Restoration Angel, Hero of Bladehold, or Elspeth, Knight-Errant for 4CC threats aside from Linvala and Thrun. I think Elspeth is the best option here, but being a pet card of mine I may be biased.
Swords aren't great in a format without Stoneforge Mystic but are very high impact in certain matchups and game states. Definitely high risk high reward. They're slightly better if you're running Mirran Crusader(that guy knows how to carry a sword) or random token generators like Elspeth or Brimaz, King of Oreskos. As for which Sword, they're all on a similar power level, so I think it comes down to preference or expected meta.
I haven't played Worship at all so I can't speak to its efficacy, but from what I've read throughout the thread it seems pretty good.
Not on your list and worth considering is Sigarda, Host of Herons. She's a lot harder to kill than the good old BSA (actually, impossible to kill for many decks), but is lower impact. BSA wins races with Lifelink and is nearly unbeatable in combat with First Strike. She can really put you ahead when you're behind. I'm not completely sold on playing 5CC threats in a deck that sacrifices a lot of its lands, but there isn't a 4CC card I've found that quite fits the bill, so I'm currently on 2 BSA main 1 Sigarda side.
I wonder about this. I feel Burn and decks like Oops and Manaless will be out in force due to the cheap buy-in, so it will be imperative to have plans for them. It might be pointless to metagame too much with the expected size of the event though.
I agree that Scryb becomes a lot better with DD combo and that they really come together.
Sigarda + Cradle is another legitimate option I think. Other 3 drops I've tested in the past include Mirran Crusader and Great Sable Stag (!!) but they have their own issues too.
Unfortunately I didn't see them so I can't judge from experience yet.
I like Smiter because he's a different kind of threat than Stoneforge. He's more resilient, and isn't subject to artifact hate people board in against Stoneforge that reduces her efficacy.
In my experience trying out almost every Stoneforge configuration in GWx I've been most satisfied with the "half" package of 2 Mystics, Jitte and Fire & Ice. Batterskull is obviously super powerful, but I think its best in a UWx shell with all 4 Stoneforges and the Blue Good Stuff.
War and Peace is in a flexy slot right now. I know probably isn't as good as other options, but I felt like trying it out. For what its worth, the one time I resolved it (against deathblade), it turned an unfavorable race vs two TNN into a win. I'm leaning on making that either the 3rd Pridemage or a 24th land to accommodate Dark Depths combo right now. I love Scryb Ranger but I worry that she is too cute.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
16 Noncreature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Electrickery
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pithing Needle
I was 1-2 in the three round tourney (Imperial Painter: loss, Deathblade: win, Miracles: loss), and while there is definitely room for adjustments, the list felt good overall.
I chickened out at the last second over playing 4 colors and decided to just go Naya.
It took a lot for me to drop the 4 maindeck Thalias that have been ironclad for months, but the non-bo with Punishing Fire was staring me in the face. And in fact, I don't regret it at all and would do it again. The decision to play 4 Birds was easier now that I remained with 8 X/1s main instead of 12 with Thalia (plus being able to produce red mana was awesome and even flying was relevant). Also, playing more threats, Green Sun-ing for normal amounts, and being able to cast a creature spell and hold up plow the same turn all felt GOOD.
Losing Thoughtseize definitely hurts against combo, but I think the Red splash offers different strengths that still have value.
I'll continue testing a similar list with some tweaks for the near future, if not at a GPT this weekend then at my local next Monday...
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
14 Noncreature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
Junk has felt a bit underpowered to me lately so I thought I'd try something different, though I'm not even sure Punishing Fire is a good way to fight the Cruisers.
I usually don't play such greedy decks so the mana might be a bit wonky, I just eyeballed it. I went 4 color because I wanted a mana dork that could produce red to maximize Punishing Fire efficiency but Birds of Paradise doesn't seem great. SFM always underwhelms me so I'm trying Smiter instead...sometimes you just want to resolve a big dumb guy. Sideboard is kind of random right now but I like the idea of being able to play both Thoughtseize, blasts, and sweepers (maybe Pyroclasm over Deluge?).
Here is the list he played: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73441
I think the MD is identical to what he's played in recent months. No new SB technology either.
How aggressively do you mulligan against miracles? Between soft disruption like Thalia or hard disruption like QPM on Top/CB which do you think is more valuable?
This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I concluded Baloth was better as a sideboard card because of its hateful applications vs Liliana decks, and also functioning better as a win condition due to the bigger body.
Huntmaster has the advantage of being two bodies which is better for chump blocking and can't be dealt with by spot removal. However, it can't be relied on to win a game unless it flips, which may or may not happen. A surprising number of decks aren't well equipped to deal with a CMC4 creature with 4 toughness. I see it as a mostly defensive card to bridge the mid-game to the end game. I think if I were to play it I would do so maindeck, and sideboard them out for Baloths in the appropriate matchups. The problem with maindeck creatures (besides snap and steve) in Scapeshift is turning on opposing spot removal, but Huntmaster mostly gets around this by having two bodies.
What? Am I terrible at this deck or something? I've struggled playing against Jund/Junk. Liliana, discard, and Fulnimator Mage are still huge problems even if Tec Edge is absent. I haven't found many terribly effective sideboard cards against them either (Really just Baloths, Wurmcoil is good against them too but only if you get a chance to cast it).
All valid points. There is a reason an Esper version has put up actual results and a WUR version hasn't. While I still believe Red has some dimensions that Black doesn't, Esper is almost certainly the way to go in tournaments at a higher level than FNM. Unfortunately, at that point I think you are best served by Monoblack or UW control if you are truly playing to win instead of a pet deck like this that is weak to a number of prevalent metagame elements right now. I took straight UW to an SCG Open about a month ago and got hammered.
I've goldfished a number of Bant lists online, as I tend to force Bant at every possible opportunity. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much that straight UW can't do, while having less consistent mana. I have most of the cards for it so I could see myself bringing it to FNM at some point before rotation. Cards I was trying out included Fleecemane Lion, Voice of Resurgence, and Wayfaring Temple(!!). The latter two have very cute synergies with Ephara. I've seen lists with Advent of the Wurm (Ryan Hipp top 16'd an Open early in the BNG season with such a list if I recall correctly) which looks a little awkward but is undoubtedly powerful.
I think there's something to be said for a red splash. Mizzium Mortars is a real answer to Dragons and Blood Baron, and I even think Iroas could be a valuable addition, as sometimes Brave the Elements isn't enough in the blocking matchups, which can be very difficult otherwise. With Battlefield Forge legal soon, I might try this out.
Speaking of cards that will be legal soon in M15, Spirit Bonds stood out as a possible option as it provides devotion and triggers Ephara. I think even Soul of Theros could be on the table alongside a few copies of Nykthos, not sure if its really better than Elspeth though.
Card being referred to here is Worldly Counsel. Looks interesting to me as I'm not quite satisfied with either Telling Time or Peer Through Depths.
Anyone actually tried it?
Comet Storm is an instant speed fireball effect, maybe that's worth a try.
Swords aren't great in a format without Stoneforge Mystic but are very high impact in certain matchups and game states. Definitely high risk high reward. They're slightly better if you're running Mirran Crusader(that guy knows how to carry a sword) or random token generators like Elspeth or Brimaz, King of Oreskos. As for which Sword, they're all on a similar power level, so I think it comes down to preference or expected meta.
I haven't played Worship at all so I can't speak to its efficacy, but from what I've read throughout the thread it seems pretty good.
Not on your list and worth considering is Sigarda, Host of Herons. She's a lot harder to kill than the good old BSA (actually, impossible to kill for many decks), but is lower impact. BSA wins races with Lifelink and is nearly unbeatable in combat with First Strike. She can really put you ahead when you're behind. I'm not completely sold on playing 5CC threats in a deck that sacrifices a lot of its lands, but there isn't a 4CC card I've found that quite fits the bill, so I'm currently on 2 BSA main 1 Sigarda side.