I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
My point was that I think it's completely subjective whether you think swordsing a creature or scooping vs lifelink is bad sportsmanship. I think there are probably plenty of people who would think the swordsing is too. Both are technically legal. Both don't prevent you from losing the current game. I'd argue that any distinction between them is basically arbitrary since by all objective measures I can think of, they're equal. BUT - every group should decide for themselves how they feel. Personally I don't really care either way, although I think it's best etiquette to follow the rules I laid out earlier (warn in advance, leave them a way out, and establish the rules at the beginning if you plan to try it).
Paying mana to play a spell before the combat damage step and extracting yourself from the game to harm another player are very easily distinguishable. One is obviously legal and the other is, as you say, “technically legal.” This already implies that you know it to be poor sportsmanship. Otherwise, why the need to qualify?
It’s simple. Your opponent used cards and mana to get into position to kill you. Any revenge of yours that uses cards and mana is fair. You using the meta-ability to concede the game to punish your opponent isn’t fighting fairly.
Another reference to football. Suppose in a tournament that the opposing team is winning 4-0. If they score one more goal, they advance to the next round on goal differential. There are 10 minutes left, so you are going to lose for sure. Are you OK with walking off the field and forfeiting the game so that they are punished for beating you? Technically, it’s legal. Also, obviously that is bad sportsmanship.
And another reason I hate this kind of crap is that these types of “I scoop to punish you” makes playgroups sit there and NEVER ATTACK until someone wins through a combo. How boring! It makes games take eons and people get extra salty.
Build your deck around Telepathy. Nothing like letting your opponents see why each other are the threats. Throw Perplexing Chimera in there with ways to blink it.
I think there's times when "scooping at sorcery speed" is a bad rule. Case in point - someone casts expropriate and copies it 4 times. Do I want to sit through that for a .01% chance they don't win? Hell no. But I don't get an opportunity to scoop by the sorcery speed rule.
As far as tactical/spite scooping, it basically operates in the exact same way as the last-minute strip mine/swords/etc. It doesn't prevent you losing the game, but it lets people know that they shouldn't try to kill you unless they're prepared for you to do everything you can to hurt them on the way out. The only important question is whether the group thinks scooping is acceptable to use as a weapon, which I don't think has a right or wrong answer.
I mean sure, if someone has infinite turns or close to it, no problem if people scoop.
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
What do the rules say about scooping? Can't you concede any time you please?
If Player A attacks me and in doing so would gain a critical amount of life and I concede to prevent that, then Player A overextended into a game option I had. It's not spite scooping it's literally a tactical scoop. Circumventing that option is the childish thing not the scooping. Think about it logically. The consensus is emotionally skewed because circumventing a scoop is an emotional response, not a legal one.
House rules that are discussed at a relevant time are okay I guess but riddle me this. What about scooping to an attack that would gain life and put the attacker at a Felidar Sovereign victory? Is this a spite scoop? Is this a tactical scoop?
Someone above mentioned letting a Helm of the Host resolve even though they and the table would lose. It was also mentioned that this action was to prove his word — I assume to set the tone of his word for future games and the politics involved in those games. This isn't a scoop scenario but the point remains. That some game actions or inactions set the tone for future games (with a regular group) and part of that is scooping tactically. You can't just lable everything a spite scoop or childish. Be sure you are trying to understand the scoop before being childish yourselves. Imho
I made the play you are referencing, but I definitely do not see it as tactical scooping. In that game, I was literally the only player who could respond and stop the whole table from dying. I offered to do it if the player who had put me to about 10 life would give me two untaps without killing me, but he refused the deal. At the point he refused the deal, if I counter the spell, for all of time that player will never take my word seriously. So I didn’t counter, and we all died on the spot. Now that player and the others at the table know if I say “I will take X action if you do Y,” they know I have the capacity to follow through, even if it means losing the game.
On the flip side, I would never threaten to scoop, nor scoop to prevent a player from gaining an advantage they have earned through their play. That doesn’t mean I won’t Swords their best creature, Strip their best land or block their big lifelinker and sac my blocker as I die. I’m throwing the last punch I can every time. I think that is how everyone should play, which is why I generally ask the table before we start if we will all agree to scoop at sorcery speed. I can only remember one time where someone actually said no, and only a handful of times when someone agreed and scooped anyway.
I also have a personal disdain of scooping prior to lethal damage. I will never do that unless it is a 1v1 situation where I am basically locked or dead next turn. Again, in a multiplayer game, I think it’s disrespectful to the other players to scoop when you are not dead. Often the only way to overcome a dominant player is to work together and scooping because you’re color-screwed or soft-locked just means that the leader has 40 damage they don’t have to deal, putting the other 2 players at a significant disadvantage. This especially bothers me because I usually get about 2 games of paper EDH per week. I want to play games, not non-games, and one player scooping before lethal damage greatly enhances the number of non-games.
My feeling is that if you’re taking it on the chin, sit there and take it like an adult. It happens to everyone from time to time. And also take the time to look at your hand full of uncastable spells and actually try to understand why. If you’re running 10 6+ mana cards with 34 lands and a color hungry deck with tons of colorless lands, you deserve to be miserable when your deck doesn’t function. It shouldn’t ruin my game when your deck is functioning as built.
Here is an example of why I think scooping at non lethal damage sucks:
I’m playing my Zedruu deck against two mill players and a Gonti deck. One of the mill players gets out the enchantment that mills all opponents for 2 when they draw. The other player had Phenax and Thousand-Year Elixir and a Consuming Abberation, so we were short on time. My only path I had to victory in the face of two mill decks was to cast Opalessence and kick a Rite of Replication on his enchantment and mill out the mill decks by drawing a billion cards. Since I knew the Mimeoplasm player also had Eldrazi in his deck (he could never mill out) and I needed to deal with the Abberation, I played Rest In Peace along with Opalessence. At 40 life and 60+ cards in library, 12 cards in hand and ~9 mana, he scooped because RiP “shuts down my deck.” This completely invalidated my path to victory I was halfway down. Once he scooped, Gonti also scooped because he couldn’t remove Phenax, and Phenax won in two turns because there wasn’t another player to mill.
I think a very experienced pilot will do fine in the current meta, but I agree that it’s been pretty hostile lately, new mulligan rule or not. Seen plenty of main deck Surgical Extraction and tons of Leylines in boarded games.
On the plus side, my Leylines have spiked in price to essentially 5 times what I paid for them. So that is nice.
Thanks for the reply. There is certainly a scavenge deck that works well for Varolz, especially with infect creatures. As far as Dreadnought and his friend Death’s Shadow are concerned, they are really a part of a different deck.
So first, thanks for the feedback. I definitely considered Mike and Trike, but 1.) I don’t own those cards and 2.) I consider that particular combo to be just a tad too powerful for my playgroup, especially with TaN. The trio also run like $80, so I’ll prolly go without until my playgroup gets a bit more powered.
As far as Gitrog, I definitely considered putting him in, not necessarily to dredge the deck in one shot with Dakmor, but as a great value engine. I definitely want to find a spot for him at some point to try him out. Hypnotist could get hard to continually pay for so I’d probably have to throw in the Skirge to enable the loop, and the mana could pay for combining off once the yard is full as long as I have enough green. I’ll have to try it out.
Lord of Extinction is a card I don’t really like for this deck. It falls into the category of “only a win condition,” and at 5 mana, it’s a bit too much for me. My Jarad sac targets are a 2-mana answer to fliers and a 5 mana deck enabler, and I am OK with that.
Out:
- Golgari Signet
- Kodama’s Reach
- Memorial to Folly
The deck wants creatures, so replacing the Signet and Reach was a priority, plus neither of those things does much of anything in the graveyard. I settled on DRS becaus I lacked any grave hate, and it can also be ramp. I do wish it could be clamped, but I do have plenty of sac outlets in a pinch. Wayfinder, even though it doesn’t ramp me, can get my engine going sooner and replace itself with a land.
I’m monitoring my tap land situation and may consider removing the Mosswort Bridge and the noob fetches for additional untapped sources to have more consistent early turns.
I’m glad she worked out in one game, though I run her as my general and can tell you that she can be pretty tough to keep around. I run Mystifying Maze, Maze of Ith, Shizo, Death’s Storehouse and Shizo, the Bloodsoaked Keep as ways to keep her around through attacking, as most people will attack someone who has a block that will kill her.
Don’t get me wrong, I love her, and if you need the draw, go for it.
I played against a dredge player in my local game store and we practiced with the London Mulligan Rule. Leyline of the Void was busted as hell and I hate that card so much I will not play it. It is just so not fun. If the London Mulligan will be the new way to go, I will play 1 Godless Shrine and 1 Sacred Foundry and 3 Wear // Tear in the sideboard I think...
The alternative you could be playing 2 Krosan Grip or something but it is only OK if you have a also Simian Spirit Guide, otherwise it is too slow.
The deck could easily add in Godless Shrine. In fact, I used to play one when we ran 2-4 Pale Recluse.
I’ve seen this used to good effect in Mistform Ultimus decks, but it’s more about making all your creatures unblockable and draw cards since it’s mono-blue.
I have theory-crafted and playtested a couple matches with the list below. The list is looking to do a couple things: 1.) use creatures as currency, often tokens, 2.) fill the graveyard, and 3.) recur answers and combo pieces to win the game.
The main plan is to start filling my yard with my deck and use my copious amounts of recursion to always have the right answer until I am ready to combo off and win. In most cases, I have cheap answers to permanents so I can recur and play them right away (bonus points if they can be Skullclamped for value). While doing that, I produce tokens, not really as a go wide strategy, but as a way to fuel Fecundity or Dark Prophecy drawing, as well as chump blocking or even mana.
The deck can also simply outlast other decks and bury them in card advantage.
I am open to suggestions and potential weaknesses to look out for. Obviously, I could consider some fast mana, but I actually don’t love it in this deck and am actively looking to replaceGolgari Signet as it is one of the few cards that has basically no synergy with my deck at all.
Pet Synergies:
Note: All of these require a cost-free, instant-speed sac outlet in play. That’s why we’re playing one in the command Zone. And also why we are playing Viscera Seer, Sadisic Hypnotist and Ashnod’s Altar.
Crawling Sensation is a very fair card. No matter how many lands you dump into your yard on a turn, you get one insect token. To make it really good is to trigger it on each opponents turn. There are many ways to do this, but the easiest is drawing cards on our opponents’ turns.
That sounds counter intuitive until you consider that we have 5 Dredge cards, plus Underrealm Lich and Abundance as ways to bin cards as we draw them. The best engine is with Call the Bloodline and Dakmor Salvage which allows us to pay 1 to create our draw fodder plus a lifelinking vampire token. We also have 9 lands that can find their way to the graveyard from our hand or the battlefield.
With the Thug trigger, you can put whatever creature you want to draw from your graveyard on top. Mysteries gives you a clue to draw it for 2, plus a soldier token for your trouble. Ashnod’s Altar gives you the mana you need to pay for the clue. Simple enough.
However, you can also dredge the Thug (ignoring the creature you top), sacrifice the soldier token for 2 and pay b to recast the Thug, netting yourself 1. Basically, as long as you have black mana, you can continue to dredge 4 cards. Since the deck runs several ways to recur win conditions, this can be very advantageous.
Adding a Grim Haruspex/Fecundity/Dark Prophecy effect lets us both draw the creature we top AND dredge the Thug. Now we can tear through the deck and sculpt our hand as we do it. I’m not running it because I don’t have it, but this would also go infinite with a Phyrexian Altar once you recur a Nest Invader or Eyeless Watcher. Essentially, you would dredge your deck while drawing the creature pieces, then recurring the artifact engine of your choice.
As long as our artifacts find their way to the graveyard, we should be able to return them via Loam + Buried Ruin. This lets us use Golgari Findbroker to retrieve a creature or enchantment.
I’m a proponent of scooping at sorcery speed. I generally will not play with people who cannot abide by that if I can help it.
However, I do think there are times where the “nuclear option” must be invoked. For example, I was playing a U/G deck and had out creature Teferi, while being at about 12 life. The Godo deck had Helm of the Host on the stack, and I was the only person who could stop it. I had the counter in my hand, and said to my other opponents “I will stop this if you give me two untaps without killing me.” One player agreed immediately, but the other said he would not agree to that deal. I made sure he knew that the game would end if I didn’t counter the spell, which he said he knew. So I let the Helm resolve and we lost.
I think the difference between what I did and what you are describing is that I didn’t threaten to scoop if I didn’t get my 2 untaps. I threatened nonintervention where my inaction meant my opponents and I would assuredly lose. And since my opponent dared me to do it, I needed to show him that my words are more than wind. But again, I think there is a massive difference between meaning what you say politically in a game and rage-scooping to a Rest In Peace while playing Karador.
This happens quite a lot, where if know that if you prevent one thing happening that you are 99% likely to hand the game over to the next person. You're in a losing position, so sure you can stop Player A, but then Player B wins. So you go to make a deal with the other players. I usually make my deals pretty reasonable, like "don't attack me for two turns". Honestly I can see that person calling your bluff on not stopping the other player, as not killing you for a couple of turns, they might have felt you could win through that deal. Probably should have come back with a one turn window instead.
I’m a proponent of scooping at sorcery speed. I generally will not play with people who cannot abide by that if I can help it.
However, I do think there are times where the “nuclear option” must be invoked. For example, I was playing a U/G deck and had out creature Teferi, while being at about 12 life. The Godo deck had Helm of the Host on the stack, and I was the only person who could stop it. I had the counter in my hand, and said to my other opponents “I will stop this if you give me two untaps without killing me.” One player agreed immediately, but the other said he would not agree to that deal. I made sure he knew that the game would end if I didn’t counter the spell, which he said he knew. So I let the Helm resolve and we lost.
I think the difference between what I did and what you are describing is that I didn’t threaten to scoop if I didn’t get my 2 untaps. I threatened nonintervention where my inaction meant my opponents and I would assuredly lose. And since my opponent dared me to do it, I needed to show him that my words are more than wind. But again, I think there is a massive difference between meaning what you say politically in a game and rage-scooping to a Rest In Peace while playing Karador.
This happens quite a lot, where if know that if you prevent one thing happening that you are 99% likely to hand the game over to the next person. You're in a losing position, so sure you can stop Player A, but then Player B wins. So you go to make a deal with the other players. I usually make my deals pretty reasonable, like "don't attack me for two turns". Honestly I can see that person calling your bluff on not stopping the other player, as not killing you for a couple of turns, they might have felt you could win through that deal. Probably should have come back with a one turn window instead.
I agree, but it was worth it when we played the next game. When I said “If you do this, I will do this” the table listened.
I’m a proponent of scooping at sorcery speed. I generally will not play with people who cannot abide by that if I can help it.
However, I do think there are times where the “nuclear option” must be invoked. For example, I was playing a U/G deck and had out creature Teferi, while being at about 12 life. The Godo deck had Helm of the Host on the stack, and I was the only person who could stop it. I had the counter in my hand, and said to my other opponents “I will stop this if you give me two untaps without killing me.” One player agreed immediately, but the other said he would not agree to that deal. I made sure he knew that the game would end if I didn’t counter the spell, which he said he knew. So I let the Helm resolve and we lost.
I think the difference between what I did and what you are describing is that I didn’t threaten to scoop if I didn’t get my 2 untaps. I threatened nonintervention where my inaction meant my opponents and I would assuredly lose. And since my opponent dared me to do it, I needed to show him that my words are more than wind. But again, I think there is a massive difference between meaning what you say politically in a game and rage-scooping to a Rest In Peace while playing Karador.
Paying mana to play a spell before the combat damage step and extracting yourself from the game to harm another player are very easily distinguishable. One is obviously legal and the other is, as you say, “technically legal.” This already implies that you know it to be poor sportsmanship. Otherwise, why the need to qualify?
It’s simple. Your opponent used cards and mana to get into position to kill you. Any revenge of yours that uses cards and mana is fair. You using the meta-ability to concede the game to punish your opponent isn’t fighting fairly.
Another reference to football. Suppose in a tournament that the opposing team is winning 4-0. If they score one more goal, they advance to the next round on goal differential. There are 10 minutes left, so you are going to lose for sure. Are you OK with walking off the field and forfeiting the game so that they are punished for beating you? Technically, it’s legal. Also, obviously that is bad sportsmanship.
And another reason I hate this kind of crap is that these types of “I scoop to punish you” makes playgroups sit there and NEVER ATTACK until someone wins through a combo. How boring! It makes games take eons and people get extra salty.
I mean sure, if someone has infinite turns or close to it, no problem if people scoop.
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
I made the play you are referencing, but I definitely do not see it as tactical scooping. In that game, I was literally the only player who could respond and stop the whole table from dying. I offered to do it if the player who had put me to about 10 life would give me two untaps without killing me, but he refused the deal. At the point he refused the deal, if I counter the spell, for all of time that player will never take my word seriously. So I didn’t counter, and we all died on the spot. Now that player and the others at the table know if I say “I will take X action if you do Y,” they know I have the capacity to follow through, even if it means losing the game.
On the flip side, I would never threaten to scoop, nor scoop to prevent a player from gaining an advantage they have earned through their play. That doesn’t mean I won’t Swords their best creature, Strip their best land or block their big lifelinker and sac my blocker as I die. I’m throwing the last punch I can every time. I think that is how everyone should play, which is why I generally ask the table before we start if we will all agree to scoop at sorcery speed. I can only remember one time where someone actually said no, and only a handful of times when someone agreed and scooped anyway.
I also have a personal disdain of scooping prior to lethal damage. I will never do that unless it is a 1v1 situation where I am basically locked or dead next turn. Again, in a multiplayer game, I think it’s disrespectful to the other players to scoop when you are not dead. Often the only way to overcome a dominant player is to work together and scooping because you’re color-screwed or soft-locked just means that the leader has 40 damage they don’t have to deal, putting the other 2 players at a significant disadvantage. This especially bothers me because I usually get about 2 games of paper EDH per week. I want to play games, not non-games, and one player scooping before lethal damage greatly enhances the number of non-games.
My feeling is that if you’re taking it on the chin, sit there and take it like an adult. It happens to everyone from time to time. And also take the time to look at your hand full of uncastable spells and actually try to understand why. If you’re running 10 6+ mana cards with 34 lands and a color hungry deck with tons of colorless lands, you deserve to be miserable when your deck doesn’t function. It shouldn’t ruin my game when your deck is functioning as built.
Here is an example of why I think scooping at non lethal damage sucks:
I’m playing my Zedruu deck against two mill players and a Gonti deck. One of the mill players gets out the enchantment that mills all opponents for 2 when they draw. The other player had Phenax and Thousand-Year Elixir and a Consuming Abberation, so we were short on time. My only path I had to victory in the face of two mill decks was to cast Opalessence and kick a Rite of Replication on his enchantment and mill out the mill decks by drawing a billion cards. Since I knew the Mimeoplasm player also had Eldrazi in his deck (he could never mill out) and I needed to deal with the Abberation, I played Rest In Peace along with Opalessence. At 40 life and 60+ cards in library, 12 cards in hand and ~9 mana, he scooped because RiP “shuts down my deck.” This completely invalidated my path to victory I was halfway down. Once he scooped, Gonti also scooped because he couldn’t remove Phenax, and Phenax won in two turns because there wasn’t another player to mill.
On the plus side, my Leylines have spiked in price to essentially 5 times what I paid for them. So that is nice.
As far as Gitrog, I definitely considered putting him in, not necessarily to dredge the deck in one shot with Dakmor, but as a great value engine. I definitely want to find a spot for him at some point to try him out. Hypnotist could get hard to continually pay for so I’d probably have to throw in the Skirge to enable the loop, and the mana could pay for combining off once the yard is full as long as I have enough green. I’ll have to try it out.
Lord of Extinction is a card I don’t really like for this deck. It falls into the category of “only a win condition,” and at 5 mana, it’s a bit too much for me. My Jarad sac targets are a 2-mana answer to fliers and a 5 mana deck enabler, and I am OK with that.
In:
+ Deathrite Shaman
+ Satyr Wayfinder
+ Glacial Chasm
Out:
- Golgari Signet
- Kodama’s Reach
- Memorial to Folly
The deck wants creatures, so replacing the Signet and Reach was a priority, plus neither of those things does much of anything in the graveyard. I settled on DRS becaus I lacked any grave hate, and it can also be ramp. I do wish it could be clamped, but I do have plenty of sac outlets in a pinch. Wayfinder, even though it doesn’t ramp me, can get my engine going sooner and replace itself with a land.
I’m monitoring my tap land situation and may consider removing the Mosswort Bridge and the noob fetches for additional untapped sources to have more consistent early turns.
Don’t get me wrong, I love her, and if you need the draw, go for it.
The deck could easily add in Godless Shrine. In fact, I used to play one when we ran 2-4 Pale Recluse.
Here is the list:
1x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Creatures - 42
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Viscera Seer
1x Blood Artist
1x Golgari Thug
1x Kraul Harpooner
1x Nest Invader
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Satyr Wayfinder
1x Zulaport Cutthroat
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Bone Shredder
1x Cadaver Imp
1x Catacomb Sifter
1x Eternal Witness
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Slimefoot, the Stowaway
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Wood Elves
1x Entomber Exarch
1x Eyeless Watcher
1x Golgari Findbroker
1x Gravedigger
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1x Poison-Tip Archer
1x Vindictive Vampire
1x World Shaper
1x Golgari Grave-Troll
1x Pharika’s Mender
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Shriekmaw
1x Underrealm Lich
1x Baloth Null
1x Brood Monitor
1x Deadwood Treefolk
1x Noxious Gearhulk
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x World Breaker
1x Call the Bloodline
1x Awakening Zone
1x Crawling Sensation
1x Dark Prophecy
1x Fecundity
1x Journey to Eternity
1x Ulvenwald Mysteries
1x Abundance
1x From Beyond
Artifacts - 6
1x Skullclamp
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Ashnod’s Altar
1x Birthing Pod
1x Deathrender
1x Whip of Erebos
Sorceries - 2
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sever the Bloodline
Instants - 4
1x Heroic Intervention
1x Beast Within
1x Gnaw to the Bone
1x Krosan Grip
Land - 36
1x Blighted Woodland
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Buried Ruin
1x Command Tower
1x Crypt of Agadeem
1x Dakmor Salvage
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dust Bowl
6x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Golgari Guildgate
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Jungle Hollow
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Spawning Bed
1x Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
5x Swamp
1x Tainted Wood
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
The main plan is to start filling my yard with my deck and use my copious amounts of recursion to always have the right answer until I am ready to combo off and win. In most cases, I have cheap answers to permanents so I can recur and play them right away (bonus points if they can be Skullclamped for value). While doing that, I produce tokens, not really as a go wide strategy, but as a way to fuel Fecundity or Dark Prophecy drawing, as well as chump blocking or even mana.
The deck wins with a few combos:
Deathrender + Gravedigger effect in hand + Gravedigger effect in graveyard + Blood Artist effect and sac outlet in play. This is much easier with either Baloth Null or Deadwood Treefolk in hand as you can fetch the Blood Artist effect from the graveyard as well.
Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod’s Altar + Nest Invader/Catacomb Sifter/Eyeless Watcher/Brood Monitor + Blood Artist effect/Slimefoot, the Stowaway. Any of the Eldrazi plus Ashnod’s is infinite ETB/death triggers. Watcher and Monitor also produce infinite colorless mana, which allows Slimefoot to make infinite saprolings which are sacc’d to drain the table.
Jarrad, Golgari Lich Lord also has some large fatties to sacrifice, though it may not appear so at first. Both Golgari Grave-Troll and Kraul Harpooner can be gigantic with 40 creatures that can find their way into the graveyard.
The deck can also simply outlast other decks and bury them in card advantage.
I am open to suggestions and potential weaknesses to look out for. Obviously, I could consider some fast mana, but I actually don’t love it in this deck and am actively looking to replaceGolgari Signet as it is one of the few cards that has basically no synergy with my deck at all.
Pet Synergies:
Note: All of these require a cost-free, instant-speed sac outlet in play. That’s why we’re playing one in the command Zone. And also why we are playing Viscera Seer, Sadisic Hypnotist and Ashnod’s Altar.
Crawling Sensation + Fecundity/Dark Prophecy
Crawling Sensation is a very fair card. No matter how many lands you dump into your yard on a turn, you get one insect token. To make it really good is to trigger it on each opponents turn. There are many ways to do this, but the easiest is drawing cards on our opponents’ turns.
That sounds counter intuitive until you consider that we have 5 Dredge cards, plus Underrealm Lich and Abundance as ways to bin cards as we draw them. The best engine is with Call the Bloodline and Dakmor Salvage which allows us to pay 1 to create our draw fodder plus a lifelinking vampire token. We also have 9 lands that can find their way to the graveyard from our hand or the battlefield.
Golgari Thug+Ulvenwald Mysteries+ Ashnod’s Altar
With the Thug trigger, you can put whatever creature you want to draw from your graveyard on top. Mysteries gives you a clue to draw it for 2, plus a soldier token for your trouble. Ashnod’s Altar gives you the mana you need to pay for the clue. Simple enough.
However, you can also dredge the Thug (ignoring the creature you top), sacrifice the soldier token for 2 and pay b to recast the Thug, netting yourself 1. Basically, as long as you have black mana, you can continue to dredge 4 cards. Since the deck runs several ways to recur win conditions, this can be very advantageous.
Adding a Grim Haruspex/Fecundity/Dark Prophecy effect lets us both draw the creature we top AND dredge the Thug. Now we can tear through the deck and sculpt our hand as we do it. I’m not running it because I don’t have it, but this would also go infinite with a Phyrexian Altar once you recur a Nest Invader or Eyeless Watcher. Essentially, you would dredge your deck while drawing the creature pieces, then recurring the artifact engine of your choice.
Life from the Loam + Buried Ruin + Artifact Win Conditions
As long as our artifacts find their way to the graveyard, we should be able to return them via Loam + Buried Ruin. This lets us use Golgari Findbroker to retrieve a creature or enchantment.
I agree, but it was worth it when we played the next game. When I said “If you do this, I will do this” the table listened.
However, I do think there are times where the “nuclear option” must be invoked. For example, I was playing a U/G deck and had out creature Teferi, while being at about 12 life. The Godo deck had Helm of the Host on the stack, and I was the only person who could stop it. I had the counter in my hand, and said to my other opponents “I will stop this if you give me two untaps without killing me.” One player agreed immediately, but the other said he would not agree to that deal. I made sure he knew that the game would end if I didn’t counter the spell, which he said he knew. So I let the Helm resolve and we lost.
I think the difference between what I did and what you are describing is that I didn’t threaten to scoop if I didn’t get my 2 untaps. I threatened nonintervention where my inaction meant my opponents and I would assuredly lose. And since my opponent dared me to do it, I needed to show him that my words are more than wind. But again, I think there is a massive difference between meaning what you say politically in a game and rage-scooping to a Rest In Peace while playing Karador.