MTG Salvation

Quote from Bearscape »

Is there a deadline when we will know whether the London Mulligan is being permanently implemented not? I am convinced that decision will have more effect on the future of modern than anything they could possibly print in Modern Horizons except for maybe Force of Will.

They will need to evaluate it and than make a decision. IIRC, the Vancouver Mulligan rule got implemented 2 months later or sometime around that.

Greetings,
Kathal

I assume, that the straight Jeskai Ascendency (so the UWR version) thread got also deleted due to the EU stuff?

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Ratrek »

FWIW, the London mulligan is hot garbage in Legacy. With many decks, it's akin to stacking your deck which is a thing we really don't need.

Oddly though, I don't mind it much in modern. But it does require you to have a good sideboard and a good plan behind it. Because without it, you'll actually get more non-games as you get hated out and can't deal with it.

I cannot say that much about Legacy, since I was not able to play it much in the past few months. My gut feeling says, that it is not that influential (relative to it's powelevel) compared to Modern. Than again, I have no idea how it evolved over the past few months :/

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Mtgthewary »

because we are not in communism where you can be unfair versus some less people to be fair versus rest. What I mean? I allways buy decks which are tier 3. The reason is I will never get a deck which maybe banned in future. I own red prison, green stompy, 8 rack and I bought 2 years ago my eldrazi stompy... The only 1 all in foil, even Gemstone caverns Noone needed 1 year ago... My pet deck I love. Is it fair when people ban my deck now? After changing surprising rules? Is it my mistake? Could I new this like people buying 5 months ago whir prison? Is this OK?

As a theoretical standpoint, Communism is equally fair to everyone, since it (should) treats everybody the same. Compared to every other system, alone from the theoretical standpoint it is impossible. Sure, in practise we all (should) know, that this is not the case.

Even than, the point you are making is basically irrelevant. There is not a single deck, which is even remotely competitive, in Modern which is absolutely ban proof. New printings happen, unbans happen, meta shifts happen. Eye of Ugin was for the most parts in its existent in Modern borderline garbage and only saw play in Tron cause it was capable to find Wurmcoil Engines and sometimes Emmi. Than Battle of Zendrika happened, it got banned 6 months later. Totally innocent card at first, busted in the end.

Second Sunrise as another example, KCI too, heck, even something as garbage as Summer Bloom got banned, cause of one deck and the interaction it provided. For example, you are playing Red Prison, what happens if Chalice/Blood Moon suddenly gets to an oppressive status due to different printings/unbans? What happens if SSG suddenly enables broken things and thus warps the whole format? Nah, rather hold of a manual fix of an format and watch it burn (different Standard formats e.g. (Faeries e.g.)) and hope for the best instead of doing something.

Sure, many things are quite easy to judge after a longer time period, that is history. But the question at the moment, when you need to pull the trigger or not, that is always a lose-lose scenario.

Given this, there will always be bans, it is the fundamental flaw of the game.

To get to the initial point: What is better:
a) Have a fix for one of the fundamental flaws of the games (amount of none games due to RNG) while running into the risk of maybe (!) needing to correct the meta of one (!) format?
b) Do nothing and accept, that the best fix for your issue (which this is) may not work, cause you need to do corrections to some formats.

Wizards want to promote Arena, Wizards wants to promote MTG as the premier TCG Esport (instead of Heartstone). Making the formats, which see solely play on THE premier platform (Arena), overall more enjoyable for everyone is the biggest reason for this change (besides fixing a long standing issue of the game). While Modern has a massive player base, people play Modern cause they enjoy Modern AND want to play with an extended card pool without the financial investment of Legacy. Sure, a portion of players might get pissed when somebody gets banned, some others will celebrate, others will not care, but keep in mind, that those cards, which would get banned with that Mulligan Rule (if at all) would slow the format down, which is something many people wish, if you take a look at the best 2+ years.

Will I be sad/mad when I see MY pet deck get banned into oblivion (Griselbanned)? Sure, but that is a sacrifice at least I would be willing to take to bring Magic forward on a fundamental problem.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: And just as a note: I honestly do not think, that the overall changes to the powerlevel of different decks will be that influential, the sum of the changes is the important aspect and nobody is capable to judge those.

Quote from Joban8 »

I'm still indifferent, however, I've watched a variety of matches thus far and have seen some dirty ***** done using Gemstone Caverns, Serum Powder, & Pull From Eternity. Opening hands for Dredge and Tron are just filthy. I just hope WotC will take some time to scour over the data from MTGO before pulling the trigger officially; I hate seeing bans and banning a card/nerfing a deck b/c it becomes too consistent after WotC changing the rules would cause a proverbial *****storm.

A stupid as it may sound: If they would need to ban 1-2 cards in Modern to make the game overall enjoyable for everybody else, why shouldn't they do it? That ruling is massive for limited (especially for limited) and also very impactful in Standard. Sure, from all formats Modern gets affected the hardest by this (dunno about Vintage) relative to it's powerlevel, so, if it is borderline okay in Modern (in a hypothetical standpoint), why not pull the trigger and in worst case ban 1-2 cards in Modern to increase the overall health of the game?

Greetings,
Kathal

So, another 9 rounds in (5-4), conclusion regarding Curious Obsession:

When the card is good, it is broken level good. Had a draw against Amulet Titan where I went Pool -> Nactl (one lander) into double Obsession where the opp had to start jumping with Azusas/Tribe Scout just to not die from the card advantage.

However, the other side of the coin is a dark place, a very dark one. There are lots of situations (and also match-ups) where the card just sucks, where it is basically a dead draw (Elves are a great example for this btw). Basically, in every match-up where we need to even remotely need to play the Control route, the card is a dead draw.

Because of this I will change the package going forward (I might try it once more though). However, what that packaged showed me is, how potent Blossoming Defense is. That is a card, that I will continue using, cause it does so much. At worst, it is a G Shock, at best it is a G Negate (with a Shock sticked on it). So, list update looks like this:



So, lots of standard stuff, the few noteworthy things:
- Only 17 lands: Xerox says hi. I added 2 additional cantrips basically instead of the 18th land, which (overall) fells really good. The deck never really wants to draw the 4th land (but in the SB situation with Huntmaster and Snap + Leak) so I still have the feeling, that this is the correct number of lands for my playstyle of the deck. Sure, I have my fair share of mulligans, but I honestly do not know, what I would cut for the 18th land but a spell, which makes (again) Delver worse.
- Condemn: I really need and want a 5th/6th Path in the deck for decks like Phoenix, Dredge, Hardening Scales and GDS (lots of them in my current meta), Condemn is the best one out there for one mana. If (in theory) there would be a better two mana removal spell, which doesn't give the opponent life, I would play it above Condemn, but for now I have to deal with the life gain of it. Sucks, but what can you do?
- Boros Charm: Ol' goody, which I always try to cram in. Would love to have a second one of them (to be able to compensate the life gain of Condemn). The only card which I consider to cut for the 18th land (or the 4th Bolt).
- Faithless Looting: While I absolutely love that card in this deck, I'm considering cutting it for the 4th Opt. Instant speed Cantrip is really nice, especially since the alternative (Sleight of Hands) isn't really better (and no, I won't run more Thought Scour, I'm not playing RUG Delver).

The Sideboard is in a flux basically, since I need to figure suff out first, aka against what do I need what. I noticed, that I have a lot of good (and also overlapping) cards in the SB for a variety of match-ups, I do not have those "oof" cards to say it this way. Because of this I usually want to board in a lot of cards but simply do not have the slots for it. Basically, I need to rework the SB to fit my (and the decks) needs for the given (and required) match-ups.

Greetings,
Kathal

The Ramp you wanted is here: Arboreal Grazer

Stylistically, that is exactly the form of Ramp the deck wants, it is a guranteed (mostly) ramp on turn 1 without being able to get interacted with (par with Counters) to enable a turn 2 Seismic Assault on the draw. Sure, it eats a full Shock, which kinda sucks, but on the other hand, it also enables Crusher on turn 2, which allows the deck to race combo better.


Besides this, I would need to actually test the (pure) Vortex list to get a better grasp of it, but honestly, the fact that the deck (still) folds to a Surgical on Loam or a Needle on Vortex sucks big time. In my opinion, the deck has already suck a good main plan (against close to everything but combo) adding elements which help you, when the main plan gets shut down (Needle/exiled Loams) should be the main goal.

Greetings,
Kathal

Cause it is a dead card in the early game (where U Tron struggles the most) and afterwards it is just another random high CMC card. Does it really matter, if you cast this card for 12 mana (which requires on average 7 lands (Tron +1, 3 Islands)) or just drop the Mindslaver Lock? If you want a massive card draw, Pull from Tomorrow does this better, cause it is an instant, which is crucial for U Tron.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Mtgthewary »

Maybe wotc should let open 1 slot in each deck till 6 months bevore it comes out to put 1 good anti card. As example 1 slot in horizon open... See Phoenix is strong... Make a card versus them in this last spot. So it could be a reaction on current meta instead planing 2 years bevore all the cards. Why not try new ways? Allways bannings is bad as a answer

Since it wasn't clear the first time:

This is logistically not possible due to a lot of reasons.

Greetings,
Kathal

From a logistically standpoint, this is impossible to do.

Greetings,
Kathal

And "only" Storm plays Gifts atm, which itself has a low metagame share, so meh. Furthermore, Aven Mindcensor is still better, cause flash beater which basically shuts down Gifts too.

Greetings,
Kathal

It is basically an EE, which costs 4 mana to blow up instead of 2 (cause you need to tap the land too).

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Lear_the_cat »

It's so easy to see on this new decklist rule who likes linear noninteractive games and who doesn't.

Playing Counter-Cat with that ruling sucks REALLY A LOT. That the opp doesn't know the exact type of interaction the deck runs and what the deck even is (and what it can do) is one of the biggest benefits, like Blood Moon less Blue Moon lists, where opponents think you are on Phoenix/Blue Moon and thus start playing around stuff which they don't even need, which gives you the tempo advanage.

For Game 1 it is a huge bummer, for game 2 & 3 it is okay, especially if it is only the cards included the deck, not the quantity.

Greetings,
Kathal

Just brainstorming:

Two possible Pig versions: All-in Pig vs Midrange Pig. All in Pig should be lethal with Griselbrand cause of Fury of the Hordes, but Griselbrand is usually already lethal with it so basically Pig is unnecessary. Emmi + Pig is usually also Lethal, but against flying Blockers where you can repeat it next turn (if you have not cheated Pig in) it sucks, cause with a cheated Pig you do not get the Annihilation trigger, which is the biggest appeal from Emmi.

So All-in Pig looks kinda wonky, cause when you already have a pay off creature which you can cheat it, you should have won already. Pig makes only sense, if you want to use it as a TTB 5-8, which is interesting, especially Post Board when graveyard hate is comming in from the opponent, since you are capable of cutting all the Goryo's while still having enough "cheat" spells.

However, this requires more Pentad Prism, since you have more 5 drops you want to cheat on turn 3 ideally. So a Playset Pentad Prism between the main/SB is a must as some numbers of Gemstone Cavern and SSG to have redundancy. Historically speaking, Pentad Prism was always iffy, cause it was just a bad ramp card, since it could get removed rather easily. So meh.


The Midrange build is kinda interesting, especially combined with LotV, pitching Pig does not harm you, it just slows you down by 2 turns realistically (you will have at least one redraw usually). Pig there is both a value beater (which is usually the biggest beater but flipped TiTi and Shadows) as a cheat spell. What creatures to cheat in that sort of build is an interesting question. The obvious ones, Griselbrand and Emmi are not really that good with it, you would want something like Rakdos the Defiler or Obzedat, Ghost Council to get the max benefits out of it. However, Rakdos sucks as a cheat creature and Obzedat is fine, but you would rather want to play it in a dedicated Midrange shell (like the Esper one, which saw play). Basically, Pig would be Goryo's 5-8 in that deck, which is fine, but not necessary (regarding the Esper shell).

So since Piggy is not that interesting in an all in version (since you always need another creature to actually do something) and decent in the Midrange build (cause of the anti-synergies with most cheat creatures you would want to play in that shell but Obzedat), something in the middle is needed. Basically a shell, where a TTB/Goryo's creature has as big of an influence as an creature cheated in via Piggy. I have ad-hoc no idea which creature this could be (Griselbrand is still the best one imo, cause it gives you redraws), the only one is Razaketh, the Foulblooded which is kinda a lackluster as a TTB target since it needs another creature to be able to generate a tutor chain (you TTB him, sac a creature to grab Goryo's to Goryo's him next turn for 16 damage).

So many things to ponder around, but for the time being I would want to test Piggy in a non Powder shell as TTB 5-6 pre board and TTB 5-8 post board.

Greetings,
Kathal

Contrapoint:
- Griselbanned is a mediocre deck (due to the consistency), but can have a Turn 1 win.
- The Nutdraws of Counter-Cat/RUG Delver are freaking disgusting for 90% of the decks out there, but they do not happen that often

What does this show? It solely depends on the match-up and the ceiling a deck has and not what the average is. A nutdraw from UW Control still folds to an decent draw from Tron, just because the match-up is such lopsided.

Greetings,
Kathal