MTG Salvation

Quote from Bearscape »

I had a reply but I'm not satisfied with how I worded it so I'm going to think about it a bit more.

In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".

When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.

The difference is: In Mirrodin Block you could run 4x Oxidize, 4x Shatter and 4x Viridian Shaman MD and it would STILL be NOT enough to deal with the Artefact decks. That is beyond levels of a broken metagame. Heck, even after the bannings Kataki, War's Wage was basically a must play, since the Artefact decks were still that freaking good.

However, does anybody run even close to 6+ graveyard hate pieces in the MD atm? No, the most you see is either the 2 off Surgical or Nihil Spellbomb which you can play the playset of, cause in the worst case it cycles for 2 mana, which is below Modern standards but it still does something. Ooze is a special case, since you profit from creatures in general in the graveyard, but it is more often than not to slow to stop things like Dredge or a fast Phoenix draw, hence, it is better in the slower, removal heavy match-ups. Kaya is similar, although better in the Phoenix match-up since the decks which play her have access to good removal and thus can even exile the Phoenixes after they hit you once/twice. That she has also other applications (e.g vs Hardening Scale, or as mini lifegain vs Burn) makes her a more all-arounder instead of being a very specific interaction card like Surgical.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to play pre RTR Modern again, since it was the by far most fun I ever had in Modern. Playing Gifts Storm with Seething Song (Increasing Vengeance is hella strong with Song), RUG Delver with Shackles and Cryptics or even Kiki Pod was so much fun. What makes it even better was, that of those decks where pretty darn good, but all either faded away due to an evolving metagame (Delver), or ate a ban (or two).

Holistic speaking, it was probably the most balanced and exciting Modern format I ever had the fortune to both play and watch, but than again, time went on.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Bearscape »

As long as skillful players deem it necessary to put Surgical Extraction in their mainboard I will not consider Modern to be "fine".

Why? When everybody and their mom were playing Midrange (aka DRS times) people played things like Elspeth, Sun's Champion in their main, cause it was so darn good vs the metagame. Heck, there where time periods where playing counter spells was the dumbest thing you could have done, cause that form of interaction aligned really badly to the metagame.

There are currently two decks, which see a lot of play where you would want some form of MD graveyard hate, namely Dredge and Phoenix, against most other decks that type of interaction (yes, it is interaction) just sucks. Humans, Spirits, Hardening Scales simply do not care about graveyard hate, and G Tron only cares about Surgical if combined with LD.

It would be the same, if suddenly everybody plays Sweepers, cause there is so many go wide Aggro strategies. Would that also be suddenly a problem?

Also, the format is fine, it just evolved over the years, currently we are at a point in Modern history, where the graveyard for the first time really matters. The deck which abused it the most previously was Squeeflagrate (a Zombie Infestation, Life from the Loam, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Bloodghast and Conflagrate deck #stomper of all Aggro decks) and that deck never took off, cause even while nobody played graveyard hate, nobody played it (cause no exposure but one GP).

When I read something along that line it always remembers me of that clip: https://youtu.be/LV0wTtiJygY

Modern changes, Legacy did too ('member when Goblins was a Tier 1 deck and not just a dumbster fire?), new cards allow new/old strategies to thrive, more cards always increase the power level, regardless of how supposed crappy the set was (every set, even Theoros and Cold Snap, has a wealth of cards contributing to Modern). While Modern is a behemoth, it slowly moves forward, one set after another.

Greetings,
Kathal

The only deck, I'm aware of would be Ad Nauseam, but there it is rather meh compared to Prism and Lotus Bloom. Otherwise, the Bolas Zitadel combo deck would like it.

Regarding FoW: The biggest problem is: There are little to none real combo decks out there. There is no classic A+B deck but Ad Nauseam (which has had never problems with counters due to how the deck works) and Griselbanned. And lets be real, both are in reality neglectable in Modern context, since the given metagame share is close to irrelevant.

FoW is really meh against Dredge or Tron, the other "boogeymans" in Modern. Phoenix does not care either, since they want to resolve a boatload of spells instead of one specific one (par TiTi and Ascension).

So, from a holistic point, Counterspell would have a way higher impact, while also boosting fundamental fair decks. FoW has the downside, that it can be played in different combo decks.

Greetings,
Kathal

No Dack Fayden, feels bad man

Greetings,
Kathal

While I exclusively played RG Assault Loam previously, I just want to slam Tamiyo, Collector of Tales in that deck, she looks so darn good, since she does basically everything you want:
- Digs for things you need (be it a beater, interaction, or an Assault)
- Fills the graveyard for Loam and co
- Can get anything back from your grveyard
- In the context of the deck, some "irrelevant" side effect of no saccing/discarding

Only problem I have with her is: she costs 4 mana. However, the pure value she can generate <3

I might test her in the RG version with a tiny U splash for her (realistically 3 U producing lands which can be searched via all the fetches), but than again, she is somewhat in the Twister slot (first thought) and I really would want to play Twister instead. Than again, I could replace the Twisters with Trade Routes (since I already have U in the deck), has the benefits, that the mana requirements go down.


Besides this, got some tests with arboreal grazer in (in the classic RG version) along with 2 Living Twister, and gosh it felt smooth to play. Having access to a real one drop (cause more often than not you do not really want to use Looting on turn 1) which ramps you ahead while being decent as a blocker in a surprising amount of match-ups lessens the burden on the curve by a lot.

Obviously you need to run more lands in that shell, cause you want to have 4 lands till turn 3 with that geezer in your hand, but that again plays nicely into the new high end with Living Twister, which allows the deck suddenly to do something with the already played lands in the mid to lategame.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: New Narset is a weaker Tamiyo btw, same thought process (grabbing stuff for us), just has noteworthy other text on her (impactful in a surprising amount of match-ups)

UW Control by far:

Opt, Field of Ruin, Search for Azenta, Teferi, Hero of Dominion, Teferi, Time Raveler, new Narset, Dovin's Veto, Hieroglyphic Illumination, Lyra Dawnbringer, Cataclysmic Gearhulk and Jace unban

Humans also got a boatlaod of cards after 2015:

Thalia's Lieutenant, Kitesail Freebooter, Militia Bugler, Tajic, Legion's Edge, Unclaimed Territory, Damping Sphere, Knight of Autumn, Deputy of Detention, Reflector Mage, Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Greetings,
Kathal

Here: https://twitter.com/finalnub/status/1121794331642187776

Greetings,
Kathal

Watched the game, Vivien was basically a "draw 3 cards over a couple of turns", that's it. Not that impressive, especially given how badly the UW Control player played it/drew cards. He did basically nothing but Field of Ruin twice, Path once and attack with Colonade twice, where he forgot to attack once. No Planeswalker, nothing to pressure the deck, even without Vivien he should have won that game.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from cfusionpm »

Running bad, narrow cards to fight a horrible, high-variance deck that you might never even see is just asking to feel bad playing Modern.

Quote from Mikefon »

I think Kathal was referring to Conley Wood's narset control deck naming shoal an commandeer. That decks is such a blast and just wrecks neoform! It seems pretty good against the field too.

About goldfished pre turn 4 wins: it's quite impressive so far. Curious to know the difference on the draw (should even increase thanks to the card drawn).

I wanted to primarily point out, that there IS Turn 0 interaction in modern which can deal with that deck, should it rise in a metagame share. Furthermore, some of those cards saw a lot of play in different time periods, Snapback in the beginning (Blazing Shoal Infect hated that card so much), Disrupting Shoal also had several time periods, where it saw a lot of play, especially back in RUG Delver days (after the Shackles builds btw).

Hence, there were and will be metagames where "trash cards, which are super narrow" are suddenly REALLY good. Just take a look at Surgical Extraction, back in 2015 it would have been idiotic to run that card at all, let alone in the main deck!

Meta changes, decks evolve, those cards can come back (or not), same is true with other super narrow and "garbage" cards

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from MikePemulis »

Unless you're playing Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce and you're on the play, you can't beat the Neoform combo. It might lose to itself, but you're not going to beat it with Spell Queller.

*cough* Disrupting Shoal, Snapback, Comandeer *cough*

Heck, even Mindbreak Trap can be devastating against that deck, countering the first Shoal is really rough for that deck.

On the more wonky side of the spectrum, there is Runeflare Trap which is (basically) an instant win.

So, yeah, there are cards which interact with that deck on Turn 0, the question is, how playable those are and especially the shell you can play them in.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from The Fluff »

Do you mean the wish cycle from Judgment? I remember Kibler created Red Zone 2k2 that used living wish many years ago. Would be nostalgia to see such things again.
____________________________

As for hoping to be reprinted. Once again, come on wotc reprint the Terravore.. we need it in ponza.

Jup.

I would love to play Cunning Wish in Bug Teachings or Burning Wish/Living Wish in Eternal Command. UB would also kinda like Death Wish, since it can grab anything (for the low low cost of half your life ).

Furthermore, all but Cunning Wish also interact nicely with the new Teferi, being able to cast them with instant speed (and in case of Burning Wish the card you grab too) could spawn some new techs.

Greetings,
Kathal

Can we have the Wish cycle pretty pls? The white one sucks (cause it is way to expensive), but all the others could see serious play in Modern.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from Slowgod »

Almost always lab man but not sure if that’s just cause people are lazy to discard all their lands or what.

Keep in mind, that Lab Man plays around Leyline, which is relevant.

Quote from gkourou »

The real question is if this deck can become a Tier 1 deck or if it stays untiered like cheerios. MODO is back on Vancouver mulligan and even if this deck needs cards, it seems to be lower on numbers today.

It needs the London Mulligan rule the most, without it, its mulligans are way worse.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote from pierrebai »

Well, we'll have to disagree on this. This very thread is about discussing the health of the meta. It's not merely about analysing results post-hoc once we have higher than 95% confidence.

The reasons why I disagree are exactly what I stated and what makes it different from ad-nauseam: the combo is more resilient, and it's faster. Sure, for Wizards to take action requires *them* to have hard numbers. To discuss and point out results we get when playing the deck, we don't need that. Plus, we can't have a large N if people are restrained from reporting the results they get.

The Combo is only more resilient, cause it can kill on turn 0/1, hence can be faster than (most) interaction can be applied. Otherwise, Ad Nauseaum is way more consistent, due to how the deck works.

From what I have seen so far, I am worried about it. That the new Mulligan Rule (which is live on MTGO) helps the deck a lot too, makes it not better.

Greetings,
Kathal

Fall of the Titans is the only one worth considering, as long as you want to be single R. Otherwise Expansion//Explosion is another one.

Greetings,
Kathal