Quote from RafiqEDH »I vastly preferred having only a single zenith as my wincon, plus colonnades.
I would say not only is it possible, but its actually better.
Generally speaking, A graph of number of wincons on the Y and effectiveness of winning on the X is going to be U shaped, assuming the wincons in question fit the deck.
Building your deck to have only 1 wincon (being WSZ, or comparable) is frequently very effective. Your entire deck is streamlined to use it, and you won't get clogged down drawing random cards in the midgame when you need more answers. You need the wraths and the logic knots first to even get to the point where having a wincon matters.
Another deck to look at would be storm: 90% of storm decks play 3 or fewer wincons. The effectiveness of grapeshot (or tendrils or empty), and the deck as a whole, decreases the more wincons you add. You need a critical mass of rituals and cantrips in order for the deck to function at all first and foremost.
Then decks like burn or affinity or humans are on the other end of the scale. Everything in their deck is a threat, and while some things are bigger threats than others, it all adds up. They do require synergy/raw numbers though. Playing burn with some random card instead of the lava spikes and the boros charms is going to make the deck much worse, because it relies on having a critical mass of these wincons.
Now the obvious counterpoint to this would be something like jund, that has only ~15 creatures. It seems reasonable to say that adding or removing a significant amount of creatures to jund is unlikely to improve it, and that is somewhat true.
The major difference here is that jund's discard takes answers to your threats. If you push a champion of the parish, humans just plays another one. They need 2 threats here. Jund is more interested in just taking the push so the first goyf sticks. Fundamentally, the discard spell could just be another goyf here.
Don't play DLO. I do like the card, but it just doesn't belong here. We rely far too much on sweepers for him to really shine.
I'm still playing a rev. I think its fine. I wouldn't play a second, but I've not been terribly disappointed with the singleton.
I think some form of mainboard lifegain is required, whether its as much as amalek has or not.
I think before jace/teferi/search, think twice was straight uncuttable, but I no longer believe that to be the case.
It may or may not still be good enough to play, but the primer is written the way it is because it assumes that there is no playable alternative. Even glimmer/hieroglyphic were not printed when it was written.
Most of the teferi talk in modern is about jeskai. Just because teferi may be better there doesn't mean he's better here.
I've been playing a few different splits of planeswalkers, but I do think the first jace is better than the first teferi. Bouncing creatures is obviously not as nice as tucking anything, and it is nice that teferi gains loyalty while drawing cards, but brainstorm is really good, and untapping lands doesn't matter as much as it does in jeskai. On top of that, having a decently stocked hand (which is far more common here than jeskai), coupled with mind rotting our opponent, makes fatesealing really strong.
We're no longer as instant speed as we used to be. Playing these planeswalkers, search, wraths, etc, means we will be tapping mana on our own turn more often than we have in the past. On top of that, timely is real strong right before a sweeper. If we know we're wrathing turn 4, gaining 6 + 3 chumps worth of life often totally closes the door on our opponent, not to mention timely chumping to keep our walkers on the table.
For the logic knot/negate/mana leak, I'm still on 3 knot, 0 negate, 0 leak main. Occasionally not having more turn 2-3 interaction is awkward, but its not too bad. Tarpit + teferi gives more play against planeswalkers than we've had in the past, but we still have cryptic to bounce. I think negate and mana leak are way too problematic to play (main) in esper.
Wow, where do i begin to respond to all of this knowledge. I guess from the top.
- White Sun's Zenith, I love this card and believe it generates more of a threat vs Secure the Wastes. My problem is back when i first built this deck it almost never resolved. It was either countered or i was locked out of W land from our UW control player using Spreading Seas, Ghost Quarter and the artifact to let him bring his GQ back from the GY (As you can see this was before Field of Ruin was printed). I lost many games because of this, since it got countered i no longer had a win con in my deck to continue and obviously the GQ and seas took care of colonnade. Maybe this was inexperience or maybe not? All i know is it was terrible having to rely on just 1 way to win the game.
- Ojutai i completely see where he is of less value as we are primarily creature less and the more we keep our win cons to non-creatures the easier it is to have our game plan.
- I agree the primer is fairly old and was written prior to TT, but i've watched some games more recently for Draw-Go on Youtube by someone names "Sky Lagger MTG" and his list ran 4 opt and 1 TT and while he won, he had significant problems with keeping his hand full. His list was 4 Opt, 1 TT, 1 Rev, 4 Charm, 2 JTMS and i just felt that while the deck functioned it wasnt to it's highest potential. Couple this with reading Amalek0's post on the previous page where he stated "Think Twice is just the truth" i just feel like Think Twice is still what we want, this deck wants to gain card advantage not cantrip.. I think if you want to play cantrips Serum > Opt and UW > Esper... but Esper IMO is so much more fun to play. Maybe i am wrong though, most of you have played this deck alot more then i have. Also, i might be wrong here too, but i;ve always been of the belief that you should have enough basics to cast any spell through Blood Moon so in this particular case then running WSZ, Cryptic, Supreme, WoG, Jace and Sphinx I would need to be run 3x Island, 3x Plains and 1x Swamp.. thats alot of basics.
- Yes alot of Teferi here has been about Jeskai but there was one post specifically that had take aways from Barcelona that stated Teferi was the real deal. I know Amalek0 is not a huge fan of him but i do believe he is good for us.. of course testing would tell. I am also a fan of the lock with JTMS once we have destroyed their hand so i also feel he fits but its a matter of where does he fit in the list? Could do 2/1 split and cut the Elspeth so it's not overloaded.
- As for Timely i guess your right we are slowly adding more sorcery speed stuff maybe it's worth trying out.. If i do though i think i would cut my 1of Remand since it has been my biggest debated spot in order to add the main deck Timely.
- Logic Knot #3 i actually traded off while i was not playing control anymore and honestly never thought Esper would be the one i picked back up when i did so oops :). However like i said before i did find in the past that i didn't always have a GY for my Logic Knots and so they sometimes became dead cards, maybe thats less of an issue now thanks to SFA fueling the GY? then again my previous list ran 12 counters in it so i had alot of cards that did nothing if my opponent did nothing.
Quote from TheAnnihilator0798 »From the hype, it seems like Jace was supposed to instantly win every game when played. I personally just want a 4-mana permanent that comes down onto late-game board state and Brainstorms every turn. The fact that Jace does other things is just gravy for me.